Well I don't know how it can be avoided... especially where TWI is concerned... I think folks can probably "temper" their disagreement, or whatever you want to call it, but when someone comes on here posting something to the effect of "oh how I long for the good old days before the lawsuit"... people are going to attempt to inform them one way or another that "all was not as it seemed"... but "kinder/gentler" is so much at the forefront these days as we try to determine how to argue with some sense of civility that I'm sure that most folks will pause and think before hitting the "add reply" button... (well, most of the time anyway)...
Thank you for the explanation my brother from the sock drawer, that was Amazingly informative... I'll rest better tonight...
"but "kinder/gentler" is so much at the forefront these days as we try to determine how to argue with some sense of civility that I'm sure that most folks will pause and think before hitting the "add reply" button"
Tom, I think you hit on what I've been getting at but unable to say. I said before that to me it is a no brainer that when you come to an Ex-TWI site and post good things about TWI, you are going to get a negative reaction. But, perhaps the other side of that is that we could also be more civil in how we state that negative reaction?
I duunnoo. I'm not into the "lets all be nice and get along" warm fuzzie stuff, because I think it is unrealistic and only serves to silence people in the end. But, as usual, I am looking for a balance.
Squilliating is a form of squealiating. Squealiating is a modern degradation of a colloquiallism, used by the early Italian immigrants when they came over to the USA. Almost always used by mothers with their children, late at night when they'd cry, as in "So why-a-you a squeal-a-so-late a-like this?"
But I can't help but wonder why some feel the need to continue to hound those who hold on to some or all of PFAL. Why the driving need to try to "force them" to reject all of it. It seems to work for them - there was a time when it worked for us, at least to some degree.
Thoughts anyone?
I don't really see that around here - sorry. Yeah, there's some diehards in the Doctorine Forum who go at it from time to time, but as I see it they're on the right playing field for the subject and don't seem to get too out-of-bounds about it. Sometimes someone will get their knickers in a knot but overall it's nothing major... they seem to get over it.
Many times I've said that I'm glad I took PFAL - it helped me in many ways and I still believe much of what I was taught in that class. No one has ever taken me to task about it - ever. I'm no Mike about it - but I've corresponded with him about it and we've had great exchanges - I've found him to be polite, honest, and sincere about his passion/motives/agenda - whatever you wish to call it.
As I see it, and I think probably 95% of the other posters here feel, it's whatever floats your boat. If it works for you, then great. If you disagree how or why it works, then your opinion is welcome, but just remember that ol' line about opinions and what they're like.... (_*_)
quote: But I can't help but wonder why some feel the need to continue to hound those who hold on to some or all of PFAL. Why the driving need to try to "force them" to reject all of it. It seems to work for them - there was a time when it worked for us, at least to some degree.
Thoughts anyone?
I think this can happen for any of several reasons.
1) Someone posts an opinion, which is interpretted as an "attack". I've had this done to me and I've done it to others.
a) Because the poster interpretting it as an attack just feels strongly enough about the topic.
b) Because the poster interpretting it as an attack has "copped an attitude" about the poster giving the opinion. Example:
Poster #1 - My, what a beautiful sunny day.
Poster #2 - Oh YEAH! You're of the DEVIL!
2) Sometimes there is a strong groupthink pressure which underscores the discussion. Not a conspiratorial groupthink, rather an emotional lure. We read enough posts and choose a position and, just like if you watch a good TV show enough times you begin to root for certain characters and whatever their opinions are on the show. Hence, you get emotionally lured into an 'us against them' attitude. Not really a bad thing, just people being people.
In my observation the Wierwille PFAL supporters not treated the same way by everyone. There is a wide variety of beliefs regarding PFAL and of Wierwille himself at GS. To some extent the treatment is based on preconceived notions, to some extent to how the poster presents his or her opinions.
It also appears to me that the higher the percenatge of PFAL that is retained, the less likely it seems to be that the psoter will be willing or able to discuss why they believe something, other than "I learned it in PFAL". When in the midst of a discussion of TWI doctrine, a position of "I learned THE TRUTH in PFAL and that's that" without any reasons why tends to cause the opposing side want to explain, to convince, to document. I'm not saying here that no PFAL doctrine is defensible, or can't be explained, but that most, if not all, PFAL fans decline to do so. Maybe that makes for some "hounding".
I think it happens because sometimes a light goes off and people DO change their minds. Johniam is a good example. Didn't believe the adultery business for the longest, but ultimately nudged on that.
I call it a mixture of optimism and insanity. :) Optimism, because we really do hope that logic will ultimately sink in. Insanity, because we're trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
There is one other element: it's fun. We didn't get to do this in TWI.
And maybe some people can't be (bothered) typing out why they believe 95% of 7 collaterals, JCOPS, JCOpassover, the orange book, not to mention the little paper back word studies etc..??!! This is after all a forum and not a university yeah ??
And maybe some people can't be (bothered) typing out why they believe 95% of 7 collaterals, JCOPS, JCOpassover, the orange book, not to mention the little paper back word studies etc..??!! This is after all a forum and not a university yeah ??
No, it's not a university, but it can be a place for learning.
One of the things that it is a forum for is sorting out what was harmful and what was helpful from our Way days. An important part of both the harm and the help was what was taught. I don't expect PFAL fans like yourself to type out why they believe "95% of 7 collaterals, JCOPS, JCOpassover, the orange book, not to mention the little paper back word studies", but when a specific point is being discussed, it only makes sense to give reasons why a certain position is taken. Else what basis is there for disagreeing?
"it only makes sense to give reasons why a certain position is taken. Else what basis is there for disagreeing? "
And the reasons should be more than because:
* VPW said it so that settles it
*PFAL is God-breathed and that settles it
We have to learn to use our own minds to think things through. If after you have done that, you still hold your position, then fine.
Since we have been discussing these issues on these threads, I looked up the definition of debate: the verb form:
Main Entry: 2 debate
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·bat·ed; de·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT, CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
- de·bate·ment /-'bAt-m&nt/ noun
- de·bat·er noun
Interesting that the word is defined as fighting or contending, to contend in words, opposition. These things can sound negative or against the tide, but to contend in words I thought was the most interesting. Considering opposing arguments that's a good one too. I think considering another position is always good. But if after considering and you come back to your first conclusion, that is okay too.
I think the key to understanding and compassion is being at least able to consider another argument. I think that helps to make us mature.
I thought the etymology of the word debate was neat:
from de- + batre to beat To beat hahahahaha - sounds like trying to beat someone over the head to see your side of the issue.
Been there, tried that, doesn't work..................
...But at the same time, if someone posts about something they remember fondly about TWI, does that post have to be followed by a remark about how rotten it was? I think most of us here already know and agree that at least some portion of it was rotten, otherwise we'd still be going to "twig" every week, no?"
Sometimes the post of "fond rememberance" is posted by a PFAL/TWI/VPW fan as a counter to a thread where the topic may generally negative. For example, the thread may be about how as certain TWI doctrine was wrong or misapplied. And then invariably someone shows up and says how great it is. Usually the same few predictable posters. Same with other "negative" topics.
According to the "About Us" page on the main site "Our mission is to provide information thattells the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY about The Way International and its trustees."
Yet knowing the above, that GSCafe is basically an anti-TWI gathering place, someone will occasionally post a pro-TWI, pro-VPW or pro-PFAL post. It's their right I suppose, as the "About Us" page also says "all are welcome". -- But isn't doing that kinda like somone walking into a NAACP meeting and shouting how wonderful slavery was and how the KKK was really a godly Christian organization? I don't think it would go over too well.
I think these posters or anyone posting pro-TWI or pro-VPW/PFAL stuff ought to realize that it may not go over too well here (and I suspect that most do.) Some may even do it antagonize (am I thinking evil?).
I am not at all saying that they should not post here, but rather that they should brace themselves for some possibly strong "feedback". The pro PFAL\VPW fans have been giving "feedback" on threads here for years. Why should it be any different for them when they post ?
I can't think of but maybe one or two posters here who hold on to "all" of PFAL. Even then I don't see anyone trying to "force" them to reject all of it. Same with those who still hold on to "some" of PFAL. I still believe some of PFAL, not because it is PFAL, but because some of PFAL is pretty standard fare. Yet no one has ever tried to force me to reject it all ...
There is one poster here who believes that PFAL "IS" the Word of God, and he actively promotes that belief. That poster may get hounded a bit, but IMO it is not to get him to reject all of PFAL. -- And besides, no one could force that poster to do anything anyway -- even if they did try.
I guess what I am saying, is that I don't really see that happening. Did I miss something ?
Of course, after being lambasted so much, some of us will simply avoid a lot of discussions.
Of those who I know that are 'ex-Way', they do come here, and they 'lurk'. they see how others are dealt with and they refuse to post. I have been asked repeatedly why I come here.
When it comes to the subject of the pfal class, I am opinionated...and I often express my opinion concernng the pfal class and it's "teacher" Vic Wierwille.
If someone here want's to believe that pfal is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that's up to them...I don't expect them to change their minds because of what I post...so why bother?
I feel much the same way that Mark O feels about this subject...it's my opinion that pfal does more harm than good to a person, that it's destructive in nature...I also believe that there are many lurkers and others who read these posts. Therefore, when someone wants to sing the praises of pfal, I feel that it's my right to express an opposing view...to give the reader an alternative to consider.
Besides, isn't that what GSC is all about?...exposing the truth behind this insideous cult? or have we become homogenized into a "let's all get along" and be tolerant of the pro twi viewpoint forum? Sorry, I won't apologize for attacking the pfal class...as I've said before, there's a difference between attacking the issue and attacking the poster. The pfal class is fair game...If I assert that believing in pfal will mess you up...and you happen to believe in pfal...well, nothing personal but if the shoe fits....
Look...I had 13 years of my life sucked out of me by this huckster and his snakeoil class...I'll let you know when my 13 years of posting is over...Love and kisses to all
Of course, after being lambasted so much, some of us will simply avoid a lot of discussions.
Of those who I know that are 'ex-Way', they do come here, and they 'lurk'. they see how others are dealt with and they refuse to post. I have been asked repeatedly why I come here.
Look...I had 13 years of my life sucked out of me by this huckster and his snakeoil class...I'll let you know when my 13 years of posting is over...Love and kisses to all
How many more do you have to go Groucho? I envision that you hit the start button on a 'countdown clock' each time you sit down to post... like they do in chess matches...
And you tell them .... ?
yeah Galen... what do you tell them? Do you tell them "c'mon in, the water's cold at first but you get used to it"... ?
Case in point...ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME. I still believe the majority of principals taught in pfal WORK. I don't believe many signs, miracles, wonders in the present twi ministry happen because where there is no 'liberty' there is no 'spirit of the Lord' - 2 Corinthians 3: 17 (boy read that one in its' context !)
Now, when I say majority of principles, I am meaning some of them in their 'raw' form. I don't want to go off on a 'Mike tangent', bless him if he believes all of it, but even Mike should be 'testifying' of signs, miracles, wonders in his immediate and remote surroundings with such a continual Word based, faith based belief.
Yes...I'm a pfalpp (power for abundant living principal proponent), I've seen LOTS come to pass with 'aggressive believing' (bet thats a term yo'all haven't heard in awhile !). BUT that 'aggressive believing' IS 'tempered' with a bit of " Let Thy, Father God, will be done". Sorry if it comes across as a 'recipe' of sorts, but that is what I (and others) have found WORKS !! So...to cut a long story short, no, some of us won't be changing our minds in such a hurry !!
p.s. I'm wearing my old football protectors so come & jump all over me all you want !
i agree with groucho. most of us aren't here because we're happy about all the years we lost. (i did have SOME fun, i must admit.) i'm purty new 'round these parts, but jumping on all things way-ish is what we do here, innit?
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Tom Strange
Well I don't know how it can be avoided... especially where TWI is concerned... I think folks can probably "temper" their disagreement, or whatever you want to call it, but when someone comes on here posting something to the effect of "oh how I long for the good old days before the lawsuit"... people are going to attempt to inform them one way or another that "all was not as it seemed"... but "kinder/gentler" is so much at the forefront these days as we try to determine how to argue with some sense of civility that I'm sure that most folks will pause and think before hitting the "add reply" button... (well, most of the time anyway)...
Thank you for the explanation my brother from the sock drawer, that was Amazingly informative... I'll rest better tonight...
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Abigail
"but "kinder/gentler" is so much at the forefront these days as we try to determine how to argue with some sense of civility that I'm sure that most folks will pause and think before hitting the "add reply" button"
Tom, I think you hit on what I've been getting at but unable to say. I said before that to me it is a no brainer that when you come to an Ex-TWI site and post good things about TWI, you are going to get a negative reaction. But, perhaps the other side of that is that we could also be more civil in how we state that negative reaction?
I duunnoo. I'm not into the "lets all be nice and get along" warm fuzzie stuff, because I think it is unrealistic and only serves to silence people in the end. But, as usual, I am looking for a balance.
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dmiller
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Tom Strange
ahhhh.... balance.... let me know when you find it and I'll be right there!
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ChasUFarley
But I can't help but wonder why some feel the need to continue to hound those who hold on to some or all of PFAL. Why the driving need to try to "force them" to reject all of it. It seems to work for them - there was a time when it worked for us, at least to some degree.
Thoughts anyone?
I don't really see that around here - sorry. Yeah, there's some diehards in the Doctorine Forum who go at it from time to time, but as I see it they're on the right playing field for the subject and don't seem to get too out-of-bounds about it. Sometimes someone will get their knickers in a knot but overall it's nothing major... they seem to get over it.
Many times I've said that I'm glad I took PFAL - it helped me in many ways and I still believe much of what I was taught in that class. No one has ever taken me to task about it - ever. I'm no Mike about it - but I've corresponded with him about it and we've had great exchanges - I've found him to be polite, honest, and sincere about his passion/motives/agenda - whatever you wish to call it.
As I see it, and I think probably 95% of the other posters here feel, it's whatever floats your boat. If it works for you, then great. If you disagree how or why it works, then your opinion is welcome, but just remember that ol' line about opinions and what they're like.... (_*_)
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johniam
quote: But I can't help but wonder why some feel the need to continue to hound those who hold on to some or all of PFAL. Why the driving need to try to "force them" to reject all of it. It seems to work for them - there was a time when it worked for us, at least to some degree.
Thoughts anyone?
I think this can happen for any of several reasons.
1) Someone posts an opinion, which is interpretted as an "attack". I've had this done to me and I've done it to others.
a) Because the poster interpretting it as an attack just feels strongly enough about the topic.
b) Because the poster interpretting it as an attack has "copped an attitude" about the poster giving the opinion. Example:
Poster #1 - My, what a beautiful sunny day.
Poster #2 - Oh YEAH! You're of the DEVIL!
2) Sometimes there is a strong groupthink pressure which underscores the discussion. Not a conspiratorial groupthink, rather an emotional lure. We read enough posts and choose a position and, just like if you watch a good TV show enough times you begin to root for certain characters and whatever their opinions are on the show. Hence, you get emotionally lured into an 'us against them' attitude. Not really a bad thing, just people being people.
OK that's 2, not several.
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Oakspear
In my observation the Wierwille PFAL supporters not treated the same way by everyone. There is a wide variety of beliefs regarding PFAL and of Wierwille himself at GS. To some extent the treatment is based on preconceived notions, to some extent to how the poster presents his or her opinions.
It also appears to me that the higher the percenatge of PFAL that is retained, the less likely it seems to be that the psoter will be willing or able to discuss why they believe something, other than "I learned it in PFAL". When in the midst of a discussion of TWI doctrine, a position of "I learned THE TRUTH in PFAL and that's that" without any reasons why tends to cause the opposing side want to explain, to convince, to document. I'm not saying here that no PFAL doctrine is defensible, or can't be explained, but that most, if not all, PFAL fans decline to do so. Maybe that makes for some "hounding".
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Raf
I think it happens because sometimes a light goes off and people DO change their minds. Johniam is a good example. Didn't believe the adultery business for the longest, but ultimately nudged on that.
I call it a mixture of optimism and insanity. :) Optimism, because we really do hope that logic will ultimately sink in. Insanity, because we're trying the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
There is one other element: it's fun. We didn't get to do this in TWI.
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allan w.
And maybe some people can't be (bothered) typing out why they believe 95% of 7 collaterals, JCOPS, JCOpassover, the orange book, not to mention the little paper back word studies etc..??!! This is after all a forum and not a university yeah ??
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Tom Strange
allan... that 95%... is that just a 'ballpark figure'?
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Oakspear
One of the things that it is a forum for is sorting out what was harmful and what was helpful from our Way days. An important part of both the harm and the help was what was taught. I don't expect PFAL fans like yourself to type out why they believe "95% of 7 collaterals, JCOPS, JCOpassover, the orange book, not to mention the little paper back word studies", but when a specific point is being discussed, it only makes sense to give reasons why a certain position is taken. Else what basis is there for disagreeing?
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outofdafog
"it only makes sense to give reasons why a certain position is taken. Else what basis is there for disagreeing? "
And the reasons should be more than because:
* VPW said it so that settles it
*PFAL is God-breathed and that settles it
We have to learn to use our own minds to think things through. If after you have done that, you still hold your position, then fine.
Since we have been discussing these issues on these threads, I looked up the definition of debate: the verb form:
Main Entry: 2 debate
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): de·bat·ed; de·bat·ing
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French debatre, from Old French, from de- + batre to beat, from Latin battuere
intransitive senses
1 obsolete : FIGHT, CONTEND
2 a : to contend in words b : to discuss a question by considering opposed arguments
3 : to participate in a debate
transitive senses
1 a : to argue about b : to engage (an opponent) in debate
2 : to turn over in one's mind
synonym see DISCUSS
- de·bate·ment /-'bAt-m&nt/ noun
- de·bat·er noun
Interesting that the word is defined as fighting or contending, to contend in words, opposition. These things can sound negative or against the tide, but to contend in words I thought was the most interesting. Considering opposing arguments that's a good one too. I think considering another position is always good. But if after considering and you come back to your first conclusion, that is okay too.
I think the key to understanding and compassion is being at least able to consider another argument. I think that helps to make us mature.
I thought the etymology of the word debate was neat:
from de- + batre to beat To beat hahahahaha - sounds like trying to beat someone over the head to see your side of the issue.
Been there, tried that, doesn't work..................
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Goey
Abigail Posted:
Sometimes the post of "fond rememberance" is posted by a PFAL/TWI/VPW fan as a counter to a thread where the topic may generally negative. For example, the thread may be about how as certain TWI doctrine was wrong or misapplied. And then invariably someone shows up and says how great it is. Usually the same few predictable posters. Same with other "negative" topics.
According to the "About Us" page on the main site "Our mission is to provide information that tells the OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY about The Way International and its trustees."
Yet knowing the above, that GSCafe is basically an anti-TWI gathering place, someone will occasionally post a pro-TWI, pro-VPW or pro-PFAL post. It's their right I suppose, as the "About Us" page also says "all are welcome". -- But isn't doing that kinda like somone walking into a NAACP meeting and shouting how wonderful slavery was and how the KKK was really a godly Christian organization? I don't think it would go over too well.
I think these posters or anyone posting pro-TWI or pro-VPW/PFAL stuff ought to realize that it may not go over too well here (and I suspect that most do.) Some may even do it antagonize (am I thinking evil?).
I am not at all saying that they should not post here, but rather that they should brace themselves for some possibly strong "feedback". The pro PFAL\VPW fans have been giving "feedback" on threads here for years. Why should it be any different for them when they post ?
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socks
Top 10 Reasons I Can Think Of:
10 - If it didn't get through the first 10,000 times, another 40,000 times will surely get the point across.
9 - The sound of my own voice is like beautiful music!
8 - I'm right, get with the program Beavis!!
7 - Hounding is an exageration. Dogging would be more like it.
6 - "Lost" - they keep sneaking in reruns, what else is there to do????
5 - Any point worth making is worth making over and over and over and over and over.
4 - Any point worth making is worth making over and over and over and over and over.
3 - It's like holding your breath but without the part where you pass out.
2 - Hey, back off bugger! I'm healing here!!!
and the number one reason I can think of on short notice for why we continue to hound those who clearly aren't going to change their minds.....
is out there somewhere.
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Abigail
and don't forget, Socks . . . . .
Any point worth making is worth making over and over and over and over and over.
You crack me up!
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Galen
Of course, after being lambasted so much, some of us will simply avoid a lot of discussions.
Of those who I know that are 'ex-Way', they do come here, and they 'lurk'. they see how others are dealt with and they refuse to post. I have been asked repeatedly why I come here.
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Tom Strange
yeah Galen... but you stuck around... and now you hardly ever get jumped all over!
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Galen
True.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I might as well throw in my 2 cents worth...
When it comes to the subject of the pfal class, I am opinionated...and I often express my opinion concernng the pfal class and it's "teacher" Vic Wierwille.
If someone here want's to believe that pfal is the greatest thing since sliced bread, that's up to them...I don't expect them to change their minds because of what I post...so why bother?
I feel much the same way that Mark O feels about this subject...it's my opinion that pfal does more harm than good to a person, that it's destructive in nature...I also believe that there are many lurkers and others who read these posts. Therefore, when someone wants to sing the praises of pfal, I feel that it's my right to express an opposing view...to give the reader an alternative to consider.
Besides, isn't that what GSC is all about?...exposing the truth behind this insideous cult? or have we become homogenized into a "let's all get along" and be tolerant of the pro twi viewpoint forum? Sorry, I won't apologize for attacking the pfal class...as I've said before, there's a difference between attacking the issue and attacking the poster. The pfal class is fair game...If I assert that believing in pfal will mess you up...and you happen to believe in pfal...well, nothing personal but if the shoe fits....
Look...I had 13 years of my life sucked out of me by this huckster and his snakeoil class...I'll let you know when my 13 years of posting is over...Love and kisses to all
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Goey
And you tell them .... ?
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Tom Strange
How many more do you have to go Groucho? I envision that you hit the start button on a 'countdown clock' each time you sit down to post... like they do in chess matches...
yeah Galen... what do you tell them? Do you tell them "c'mon in, the water's cold at first but you get used to it"... ?
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allan w.
Case in point...ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME. I still believe the majority of principals taught in pfal WORK. I don't believe many signs, miracles, wonders in the present twi ministry happen because where there is no 'liberty' there is no 'spirit of the Lord' - 2 Corinthians 3: 17 (boy read that one in its' context !)
Now, when I say majority of principles, I am meaning some of them in their 'raw' form. I don't want to go off on a 'Mike tangent', bless him if he believes all of it, but even Mike should be 'testifying' of signs, miracles, wonders in his immediate and remote surroundings with such a continual Word based, faith based belief.
Yes...I'm a pfalpp (power for abundant living principal proponent), I've seen LOTS come to pass with 'aggressive believing' (bet thats a term yo'all haven't heard in awhile !). BUT that 'aggressive believing' IS 'tempered' with a bit of " Let Thy, Father God, will be done". Sorry if it comes across as a 'recipe' of sorts, but that is what I (and others) have found WORKS !! So...to cut a long story short, no, some of us won't be changing our minds in such a hurry !!
p.s. I'm wearing my old football protectors so come & jump all over me all you want !
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Oakspear
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sprawled out
i agree with groucho. most of us aren't here because we're happy about all the years we lost. (i did have SOME fun, i must admit.) i'm purty new 'round these parts, but jumping on all things way-ish is what we do here, innit?
INNIT? :D
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