It would certainly make sense to address physical death in the context of a relatively new christian church established withing a pagan community that basically did did not believe in life after physical death (others that have no hope). It would make perfect sense to address physical death if the church there at Thessalonica was grieving over brothers or sisters that had physically died. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
Clay, it is debatable if your interpretation reveals a "mystery". One does not have to be "entrenched in literalism and TWI thinking" to interpret of 1 Thessalonians in terms of physical death. I fail to see the profit in this apparant jab and unnecessary labeling of those who might take issue with your opinion.
I would like to add some thoughts to what Goey just said; it's been my observation from studying Christian history that the method of allegorization or spiritualization as applied to interpretation of scripture has been (and in cases, can be) no less problematic than those issues raised by literalism.
One example that comes to mind is the "replacement theologies" subscribed in one form or another since the first three centuries of Christianity, namely, the line of doctrines which the church adopted toward appropriating ("stealing" would not too harsh a word) the religious heritage of the Jews and making it their own. The Church was more or less viewed as having replaced Israel, and the promises of Israel transferred to the Church. The primary weapon used to accomplish this was allegory. As a result, the suffering and persecution that the Jews underwent throughout the centuries - which were then regarded by the Church as "Christ-rejectors" and "Christ-killers" - is staggering, and almost unimaginable.
The notion taught among Christians today - that the dispersed Jews "according to the flesh" - as a nation - would once again inhabit Jerusalem following its destructions in 70AD and (approx.) 135 AD - is virtually unheard of in the second century patristic literature! The idea of the dispersed Jews having a nation in Palestine - considered almost commonplace among literalist Christians today - appears to be a much newer innovation than we've taken for granted.
(I'm still looking for references among the ante-Nicene Fathers, so if anyone knows of any that I've missed, please fill me in, and correct me if I am wrong here)
As far as I can tell so far, there was only one man who voiced his opinion that the dispersed Jews would once again return to Jerusalem and become a nation. Only one man foresaw the re-emergence and restoration of Israel to the Jews (which finally happened in 1947) - the 2nd century "literalist" Marcion.
Listen to Tertullian as he mocks Marcion for his belief that the dispersed Jews would once again inhabit Jerusalem (Adversus Marcionem Bk.III.23, 24):
[Marcion]joins the Jews in denying their Christ had come. . . neither in the interval from Tiberius to Vespian did they learn repentance. Therefore has their land become desolate, their cities are burnt with fire...ever since the time Israel acknowledged not the Lord. But all this would be unmeaning if they suffered this retribution not on account on Him, who had in prophecy assigned their suffering to His own cause, but for the sake of the Christ of the Other God, although you affirm it is the Christ of the Other God who was driven to the cross by the powers and authorities of the Creator, as it were by hostile beings.
If the Creator's Christ has not yet come, on whose account the prophecy dooms them to such sufferings, they will have to endure the sufferings when he shall have come, where will cities to be burnt with fire, for they are now in heaps? Where a nation to be dispersed, which is already in banishment? Restore to Judea its former state, that the Creator's Christ may find it, and then you may contend another Christ has come.
To which this modern neo-Marcionite responds to sleeping Tertullian's last comment many centuries later: DONE.
OK. You've got two groups of people. Which group would you like to be a part of?
The first group: "The Dead in Christ" (Sounds like a horror flick)
Ah, Warrior Princess -(lol) I would go see such a flick, if George Romero directed it. That reminds me of a "Rapture" poster I saw advertised in an old, Baptist "Sword of the Lord" catalogue years ago, showing a city landscape with a big cartoon Jesus in the sky, with planes falling out of the air and huge 1960s-era guzzler-mobiles veering off the highway, and a cemetary, with Caspar-like Christian ghosts rising out of the graves upward toward the sky.
What an awesome poster. Wish I had bought it at the time to add to my tacky Robert Tilton game board. :)
Omigosh, speaking of which, this site posts a 1970s comic book on "The Rapture" which is absolutely hilarious:
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,(G2837) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(G2837)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Did you read far enough?
But dead spiritual or dead naturally?
G2837. koimao, koy-mah'-o; from G2749; to put to sleep, i.e. (pass. or reflex.) to slumber; fig. to decease:--(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept (2837) arose,
(spiritual slept but dead natural too)
Mat 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. (2837)
(slept naturally)
Luke 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping (2837) for sorrow,
(sleeping naturally or maybe spiritually)
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;(2837) but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(1852)
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep,(2837) he shall do well.
(sleep naturally)
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (2897)
(asleep naturally)
Acts 12:6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping (2897) between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
(sleeping naturally)
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, (2897) and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1 Cor 7:39 39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, (2897) she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(asleep spiritually or naturally asleep)
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (2897)
(asleep spiritually )
1 Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen (2897) asleep. (2897)
(naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen (2897) asleep (2897) in Christ are perished.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (2897)
(naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (2897) but we shall all be changed,
( naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,(G2837) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died (599) and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(G2837)
(naturally asleep)
2 Pet 3:4 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, (G2837) all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
(asleep spiritually or naturally asleep)
After reading these verses and mediating on them I see the word can mean spiritual asleep or spiritual dead or natural asleep or naturally dead.
That which I can do naturally I can do spiritually . I can see naturally and I can see spiritually.
G3498. nekros, nek-ros'; from an appar. prim. nekus (a corpse); dead (lit. or fig.; also as noun):--dead. – used 132 times in 123 verses
Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead (3498) bury their dead.(3498)
(dead in the grave )
Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, (3498) cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
(dead naturally)
1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, (3498) if the dead (3498) rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (3498)
(dead in the grave )
1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. (3498) It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(dead in the grave )
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (3498) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(dead in the grave )
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead (3498) in Christ shall rise first:
(dead in the grave will rise first but not the same word as asleep)
G2518. katheudo, kath-yoo'-do; from G2596 and heudo (to sleep); to lie down to rest, i.e. (by impl.) to fall asleep (lit. or fig.):--(be a-) sleep. — used 22 times in 20 verses
1 Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, (2518) as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
1 Th 5:7 For they that sleep (2518) sleep (2518) in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
1 Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, (2518) we should live together with him.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
G599. apothnesko, ap-oth-nace'-ko; from G575 and G2348; to die off (lit. or fig.):--be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with). – used 112 times in 100 verses
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, (599) even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(die naturally)
1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die (599) daily.
(die naturally)
1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (599)
(die naturally)
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died (599) and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(die naturally)
So one is born spiritually asleep but if we believe in Christ we can be quicken made alive spiritually but we can walk around in a fog.
So we all fall asleep naturally too or we die but we can die to the flesh little by little as we put off fleshly ideals.
Clay....one doesn't need chapter headings or divisions for 'remote' or 'near' context. Them which are 'asleep' also ties in with 1 Corinthians 11: 30 " For this cause many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep" - Paul.
The hindu's budhists muslims jews christians and all the rest have spiritual insight. No one or at least not many want to look and see what they are saying and believing. It is quite a loss of available spiritualism that was so detested by VPW and his followers.
VPW directed us against spiritualism, which is why he was so asleep to the spirit of God.
And has Danny has been showing us time and time again there is a lot more to scripture then meets the natural eye.
If you want to stay into some kind of rock solid doctrine that does not change, you will remain unchanged as 1 corinthians says. Who wants to see these changes now?
The Word of God is for now, not later. It is alive and living in the hearts of those who believe, which is an ongoing PROCESS of God enlightening the eyes to His Spirit that has been given to us from the beginning.
Ooookay...throw out an idea that sounds interesting, but no one demonstrates any basis for the idea, but it is suggested that "those who are ready" will see it.
Clay, this kind of behavior/attitude is not very becoming, particually in a doctrinal discussion. One must wonder if you actually want doctrinal discussion -- or just to be stroked.
This is placed for consideration for those who are ready
The compelling evidence will come from within
Isn't this the similar to how Mike presents his message? -- And then when it is not accepted, folks are berated, ridiculed and told they not willing or "ready" to receive the "truth" ?
O.k. heres me in my (strident, a*sehole, belligerent self)...Clay..question for ya. Are you and Todd trying to head up some sort of 'spiritual' club; ?.. it's just the vibes I get from your posts.
Hey I'm friggin human and why should i put up with ridicule and not any kind of response pro or con to what i posted.
I am the one being attacked or the message-who cares.
Compare me to Mike-lol that's a riot.
Most don't even know what Mike is doing.
I put this stuff up for consideration.
Not as some rock solid "doctrine".
No "doctrine will "save"-the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven which is within.
This is our spirit bearing witness with his which both are ONE as Ephesians points out.
If you don't want to consider it-don't.
And me and Todd have a bond that will never be broken. If you see that then you are at least seeing something. A spiritual club? HAHAHA We are all in the same spiritual club. Most just don't want to see it and want to be set apart like something that is special to them only. JUST LIKE THE WAY INTERNATIONAL. A club of people who claim to know but don't and furthermore they claim that others do not know. I have made no such claim. I said more then once you have the answers within and you still refuse to even look.
So anyways, forgive my response that was too quick and not well thought through.
Do you expect someone else to give you the answers? That is twi thinking. Jesus himself said the Kingdom of God is within you. Argue with him.
mr. allan w....Clay and i are good friends who met here and share some experiences and values.
and if you want to continue to make that into something it isn't...or otherwise poke fun at it...i will humiliate you. I promise.
i dare you get on a crusade against me or Clay like you do others
and...i am deeply torn between leaving the forum for good :(
or embarrassing the pi$$ out of some of you guys for the way you continually bait and mock and heap up piles of argumentation
and basically justify your manner of dragging down threads you dont agree with or understand
whether you realize it or not....some of you guys can really be a rotten spot in this feast of agape
and need to sit down, shut up and return to the milk of the teets before you say anything else you think is somehow spiritual or Christlike
and once i have decided and have set my mind to it....I will outlast you, i promise
and i will draw from more scripture and sources than you can imagine
and at this point...i dont even care if you understand why i am responding like this or not
...who can afford to wait for you to understand such things?
oh yes...there are times when it is valid to say that someone does not understand something
and it does not mean one is "being like Mike" (poor Mike)...my oh my...what a joke of a sideways accusation, Goey
cuz if you guys cant even understand (or are pretending not to understand) why someone would cuss someone out in sheer frustration......your are ignorant about way too many important things for the common good...and your hearts are obviously numb to something important, and it needs to be broken for the sake of everyone else
this.. i can and will do...trust me...even if my reputation goes down in flames with you all
i will consciously and intentionally mirror your behaviour and interrogation styles
i will ask you many questions you will wish i would have never asked
cuz this kind of bullying badgering crap has got to end
or our dialogue here becomes a useless pile of noise
and a waste of mental and emotional energy
where even physical health issues are compounded
wtf?
wtf?
wtf?
yes...i am a sensitive guy but with more patience than most
ask anyone i know...you have got to have some serious problems to push me over the edge
Clay and Todd are reaching for spiritual understanding and love but Goey if you think how they reach is wrong do not reply to their treads its as simple as that
I feel that I am in that same spiritual club Clay and Todd are in and look at me attacked me but leave them alone
Let them bloom to a spiritual flower of love
There are many here wanting to grow as they want to grow
Now why do you people pick on Mike because you and others have made him what he is today look how long his treads go because people like you
Mike is a good guy I have talk to him leave him alone pick on me
give people time to grow and heal and if they say something that gets you thinking tell them but for God's sake let them grow in their own way
For many years I only thinked Wayish but now I think in the box, outside the box, above the box, below the box, and around the box with the box being naturally scripture and verse thinking
I hope this helps
I sorry Clay and Todd you two were center out for reaching to grow together
Lack of agreement & questions were met by Clay with foul language, ridicule and beratement. He said or implied that those who disgreed or couldn't see what he was proposing were friggin blind, "entrenched in literalism" and "twi thinking." Clowns...
These are indeed the kind of discussion methods and tactics that Mike uses. I was not comparing the mesage - only the tactics. I think it was a fair comparison.
Too bad to see you defending this kind of stuff. Your threats are rather outlandish.
Clay, I made a couple of posts in regards to my views on 1Thessalonians . Nothing in these was was rude, ugly or attacking. You didn't even bother to address them. You ignored me. Fine, thats your perogative i guess.
However this is a doctrinal forum where ideas are discussed. Discussion implies two way dialog. There are bound to be opposing views. Disagreement is not "attack".
If you want to simply post your ideas concering doctrine, scripture or whatever and then make them off limits for debate or discussion (except to those who seem to agree with you) -- then I suggest that this may not be the proper venue.
Actually, no, it's not. I'll grant you, it's an interesting idea, but I haven't seen any reason to asign a deeper figurative meaning to "sleep" than a euphemism for physical death.
AND THINK.
Sorry Charlie, you don't get to decide who's thinking and whose not. failure to see your nebulous point is not failure to think
If you don't see it then what is your point?
My point, CM, is a response to this post:
it's something you have to see for yourself
I am not your teacher or leader or any such thing
This is placed for consideration for those who are ready
The compelling evidence will come from within
This is a discussion forum, and in that discussion you were asked by WordWolf "do you have some compelling evidence arguing for the figurative/spiritualized interpretation of these verses?...Other than CM's say-so, what "argument" do you offer for a change of position?" - and you have offered nothing other than some mumbo-jumbo about those who "are ready" seeing it.
You want to put it out "for consideration"? Cool. But what's YOUR point?
You will get a friggin demonstration, I have no doubt.
Ah, friggin' demonstartions, my favorite.
Edited by Oakspear
Whether you agree with what was posted or not is not the point.
Investigating it is.
If you don't want to investigate it, fine with me.
But why bring to the table that which I already know?
And you know I know it.
You are wasting my time And yours. Stay with what you want to believe. Some want to go further then what was shoved down our throats and never seen for ourselves.
This is why I say your thinking is twi'ish and narrow minded. You will not even consider other perspectives.
So once again why are you even posting on this thread?
I made it clear from the beginning it's purpose. If you don't believe it or comprehend that's fine with me. There are those who do. Why do you stand in their way. Everyone already knows what vpw taught on this and you are presenting the same. Just a waste of breath.
And that's all I have to say to those not interested in investigating more of what the deep hidden treasures of God are.
And I didn't call anyone a clown. I said go play with the clowns.
And I also apologized for the direct remarks. Mike has never done that. If you do not accept my apology then it's not my problem. It's yours.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
35
32
112
39
Popular Days
May 2
39
May 13
39
May 3
30
May 7
28
Top Posters In This Topic
Goey 35 posts
sirguessalot 32 posts
CM 112 posts
allan w. 39 posts
Popular Days
May 2 2006
39 posts
May 13 2006
39 posts
May 3 2006
30 posts
May 7 2006
28 posts
Posted Images
TheInvisibleDan
I would like to add some thoughts to what Goey just said; it's been my observation from studying Christian history that the method of allegorization or spiritualization as applied to interpretation of scripture has been (and in cases, can be) no less problematic than those issues raised by literalism.
One example that comes to mind is the "replacement theologies" subscribed in one form or another since the first three centuries of Christianity, namely, the line of doctrines which the church adopted toward appropriating ("stealing" would not too harsh a word) the religious heritage of the Jews and making it their own. The Church was more or less viewed as having replaced Israel, and the promises of Israel transferred to the Church. The primary weapon used to accomplish this was allegory. As a result, the suffering and persecution that the Jews underwent throughout the centuries - which were then regarded by the Church as "Christ-rejectors" and "Christ-killers" - is staggering, and almost unimaginable.
The notion taught among Christians today - that the dispersed Jews "according to the flesh" - as a nation - would once again inhabit Jerusalem following its destructions in 70AD and (approx.) 135 AD - is virtually unheard of in the second century patristic literature! The idea of the dispersed Jews having a nation in Palestine - considered almost commonplace among literalist Christians today - appears to be a much newer innovation than we've taken for granted.
(I'm still looking for references among the ante-Nicene Fathers, so if anyone knows of any that I've missed, please fill me in, and correct me if I am wrong here)
As far as I can tell so far, there was only one man who voiced his opinion that the dispersed Jews would once again return to Jerusalem and become a nation. Only one man foresaw the re-emergence and restoration of Israel to the Jews (which finally happened in 1947) - the 2nd century "literalist" Marcion.
Listen to Tertullian as he mocks Marcion for his belief that the dispersed Jews would once again inhabit Jerusalem (Adversus Marcionem Bk.III.23, 24):
To which this modern neo-Marcionite responds to sleeping Tertullian's last comment many centuries later: DONE.
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
hmmmmm, yeah Danny,
The death trap of narrow-mindedness.
as opposed to Paul writing-
Nailing it right off the bat cuz sorrow would turn to something worse.Especially with chapter 5 added into the mix like it's supposed to be.
Sounds like talking about the living to me and how to deal with one another.
allan,
Why does it bother you?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheInvisibleDan
Ah, Warrior Princess -(lol) I would go see such a flick, if George Romero directed it. That reminds me of a "Rapture" poster I saw advertised in an old, Baptist "Sword of the Lord" catalogue years ago, showing a city landscape with a big cartoon Jesus in the sky, with planes falling out of the air and huge 1960s-era guzzler-mobiles veering off the highway, and a cemetary, with Caspar-like Christian ghosts rising out of the graves upward toward the sky.
What an awesome poster. Wish I had bought it at the time to add to my tacky Robert Tilton game board. :)
Omigosh, speaking of which, this site posts a 1970s comic book on "The Rapture" which is absolutely hilarious:
http://www.evilhippy.net/2003_12_01_evilhippy_archive.html
Enjoy!
Danny
Edited by TheInvisibleDanLink to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves us all my dear friends
let look deeper into the verses
1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,(G2837) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(G2837)
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Did you read far enough?
But dead spiritual or dead naturally?
G2837. koimao, koy-mah'-o; from G2749; to put to sleep, i.e. (pass. or reflex.) to slumber; fig. to decease:--(be a-, fall a-, fall on) sleep, be dead.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept (2837) arose,
(spiritual slept but dead natural too)
Mat 28:13 Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept. (2837)
(slept naturally)
Luke 22:45 And when he rose up from prayer, and was come to his disciples, he found them sleeping (2837) for sorrow,
(sleeping naturally or maybe spiritually)
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth;(2837) but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(1852)
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
John 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep,(2837) he shall do well.
(sleep naturally)
Acts 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep. (2897)
(asleep naturally)
Acts 12:6 And when Herod would have brought him forth, the same night Peter was sleeping (2897) between two soldiers, bound with two chains: and the keepers before the door kept the prison.
(sleeping naturally)
Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, (2897) and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
1 Cor 7:39 39 The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, (2897) she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
(asleep spiritually or naturally asleep)
1 Cor 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (2897)
(asleep spiritually )
1 Cor 15:6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen (2897) asleep. (2897)
(naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:18 Then they also which are fallen (2897) asleep (2897) in Christ are perished.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (2897)
(naturally asleep)
1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, (2897) but we shall all be changed,
( naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep,(G2837) that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died (599) and rose again, even so them also which sleep (G2837) in Jesus will God bring with him.
(asleep spiritually and naturally asleep)
1 Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(G2837)
(naturally asleep)
2 Pet 3:4 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, (G2837) all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
(asleep spiritually or naturally asleep)
After reading these verses and mediating on them I see the word can mean spiritual asleep or spiritual dead or natural asleep or naturally dead.
That which I can do naturally I can do spiritually . I can see naturally and I can see spiritually.
G3498. nekros, nek-ros'; from an appar. prim. nekus (a corpse); dead (lit. or fig.; also as noun):--dead. – used 132 times in 123 verses
Matthew 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead (3498) bury their dead.(3498)
(dead in the grave )
Matt 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, (3498) cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
(dead naturally)
1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, (3498) if the dead (3498) rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? (3498)
(dead in the grave )
1 Cor 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. (3498) It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
(dead in the grave )
1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead (3498) shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(dead in the grave )
1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead (3498) in Christ shall rise first:
(dead in the grave will rise first but not the same word as asleep)
G2518. katheudo, kath-yoo'-do; from G2596 and heudo (to sleep); to lie down to rest, i.e. (by impl.) to fall asleep (lit. or fig.):--(be a-) sleep. — used 22 times in 20 verses
1 Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, (2518) as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
1 Th 5:7 For they that sleep (2518) sleep (2518) in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
1 Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, (2518) we should live together with him.
(sleep spiritually or naturally like a person walking around in a fog)
G599. apothnesko, ap-oth-nace'-ko; from G575 and G2348; to die off (lit. or fig.):--be dead, death, die, lie a-dying, be slain (X with). – used 112 times in 100 verses
1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, (599) even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(die naturally)
1 Cor 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die (599) daily.
(die naturally)
1 Cor 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: (599)
(die naturally)
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died (599) and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
(die naturally)
So one is born spiritually asleep but if we believe in Christ we can be quicken made alive spiritually but we can walk around in a fog.
So we all fall asleep naturally too or we die but we can die to the flesh little by little as we put off fleshly ideals.
Hope this gets you thinking
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Edited by year2027Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Thanks for your posts Roy,
Not sure about 4:14 yet.
1Corinthians 15 fits so well with this that it ain't even funny!
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
Clay....one doesn't need chapter headings or divisions for 'remote' or 'near' context. Them which are 'asleep' also ties in with 1 Corinthians 11: 30 " For this cause many are weak and sickly among you and many sleep" - Paul.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
allan,
You don't have to teach me twi doctrine.
I know it backwards and forwards.
If they were wrong on one point it stands to reason to investigate it all.
Thessolonians does not say what twi says it says.
If you would look at it without your preconceived ideas, with an open mind.
You just might get some real spiritual enlightenment.
What makes you think 1 Corinthians 11:30 is talking about physical death?
Those who are weak and sickly can be asleep to the spirit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
The hindu's budhists muslims jews christians and all the rest have spiritual insight. No one or at least not many want to look and see what they are saying and believing. It is quite a loss of available spiritualism that was so detested by VPW and his followers.
VPW directed us against spiritualism, which is why he was so asleep to the spirit of God.
And has Danny has been showing us time and time again there is a lot more to scripture then meets the natural eye.
If you want to stay into some kind of rock solid doctrine that does not change, you will remain unchanged as 1 corinthians says. Who wants to see these changes now?
The Word of God is for now, not later. It is alive and living in the hearts of those who believe, which is an ongoing PROCESS of God enlightening the eyes to His Spirit that has been given to us from the beginning.
Edited by CMLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
So, CM,
do you have some compelling evidence arguing for the
figurative/spiritualized interpretation of these verses?
I've noticed you've divided us into
"those who take this as non-literal"
and
"those who worship vpw's position".
Other than CM's say-so, what "argument" do you offer
for a change of position?
Hey-I'm open to reconsidering my opinion-
but I need a better reason than the ones for my CURRENT opinion.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
no arguement to it WordWolf
it's something you have to see for yourself
I am not your teacher or leader or any such thing
This is placed for consideration for those who are ready
The compelling evidence will come from within
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Ooookay...throw out an idea that sounds interesting, but no one demonstrates any basis for the idea, but it is suggested that "those who are ready" will see it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
if you had any basis you might have an idea
****ing idiots are everywhere go play with them
blind friggin clowns
Edited by CMLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Why did you even post here Oakspear?
The basis is clear to those who can READ.
AND THINK.
If you don't see it then what is your point?
You will get a friggin demonstration, I have no doubt.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
KJV: 1 Co 15:34
34Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
KJV: Eph 5:14
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved CM or Clay
God loves you my dear friend
1 Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
I belived this hepls the people of the time it was wrote better but like you I am still meditating on it
I love it when a verse jumps out at us to me that telling us the spirit is trying to teach or show us something about the verse
but because we are slow to see at times it takes time because we need to be spood feed at times
So i meditate on many things more and more giving the spirit what it needs to help me see
Some verese just take years
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Isn't this the similar to how Mike presents his message? -- And then when it is not accepted, folks are berated, ridiculed and told they not willing or "ready" to receive the "truth" ?
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
O.k. heres me in my (strident, a*sehole, belligerent self)...Clay..question for ya. Are you and Todd trying to head up some sort of 'spiritual' club; ?.. it's just the vibes I get from your posts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Hey I'm friggin human and why should i put up with ridicule and not any kind of response pro or con to what i posted.
I am the one being attacked or the message-who cares.
Compare me to Mike-lol that's a riot.
Most don't even know what Mike is doing.
I put this stuff up for consideration.
Not as some rock solid "doctrine".
No "doctrine will "save"-the Lord himself shall descend from Heaven which is within.
This is our spirit bearing witness with his which both are ONE as Ephesians points out.
If you don't want to consider it-don't.
And me and Todd have a bond that will never be broken. If you see that then you are at least seeing something. A spiritual club? HAHAHA We are all in the same spiritual club. Most just don't want to see it and want to be set apart like something that is special to them only. JUST LIKE THE WAY INTERNATIONAL. A club of people who claim to know but don't and furthermore they claim that others do not know. I have made no such claim. I said more then once you have the answers within and you still refuse to even look.
So anyways, forgive my response that was too quick and not well thought through.
Do you expect someone else to give you the answers? That is twi thinking. Jesus himself said the Kingdom of God is within you. Argue with him.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
sirguessalot
man oh man...wtf?
mr. allan w....Clay and i are good friends who met here and share some experiences and values.
and if you want to continue to make that into something it isn't...or otherwise poke fun at it...i will humiliate you. I promise.
i dare you get on a crusade against me or Clay like you do others
and...i am deeply torn between leaving the forum for good :(
or embarrassing the pi$$ out of some of you guys for the way you continually bait and mock and heap up piles of argumentation
and basically justify your manner of dragging down threads you dont agree with or understand
whether you realize it or not....some of you guys can really be a rotten spot in this feast of agape
and need to sit down, shut up and return to the milk of the teets before you say anything else you think is somehow spiritual or Christlike
and once i have decided and have set my mind to it....I will outlast you, i promise
and i will draw from more scripture and sources than you can imagine
and at this point...i dont even care if you understand why i am responding like this or not
...who can afford to wait for you to understand such things?
oh yes...there are times when it is valid to say that someone does not understand something
and it does not mean one is "being like Mike" (poor Mike)...my oh my...what a joke of a sideways accusation, Goey
cuz if you guys cant even understand (or are pretending not to understand) why someone would cuss someone out in sheer frustration......your are ignorant about way too many important things for the common good...and your hearts are obviously numb to something important, and it needs to be broken for the sake of everyone else
this.. i can and will do...trust me...even if my reputation goes down in flames with you all
i will consciously and intentionally mirror your behaviour and interrogation styles
i will ask you many questions you will wish i would have never asked
cuz this kind of bullying badgering crap has got to end
or our dialogue here becomes a useless pile of noise
and a waste of mental and emotional energy
where even physical health issues are compounded
wtf?
wtf?
wtf?
yes...i am a sensitive guy but with more patience than most
ask anyone i know...you have got to have some serious problems to push me over the edge
and God save you when you do
and if some of you guys want to fight and argue
and see this as a good opportunity
i pity you...and i will stand here anyway
Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
Share on other sites
year2027
God first
Beloved Goey
God loves you two my dear friends
Clay and Todd are reaching for spiritual understanding and love but Goey if you think how they reach is wrong do not reply to their treads its as simple as that
I feel that I am in that same spiritual club Clay and Todd are in and look at me attacked me but leave them alone
Let them bloom to a spiritual flower of love
There are many here wanting to grow as they want to grow
Now why do you people pick on Mike because you and others have made him what he is today look how long his treads go because people like you
Mike is a good guy I have talk to him leave him alone pick on me
give people time to grow and heal and if they say something that gets you thinking tell them but for God's sake let them grow in their own way
For many years I only thinked Wayish but now I think in the box, outside the box, above the box, below the box, and around the box with the box being naturally scripture and verse thinking
I hope this helps
I sorry Clay and Todd you two were center out for reaching to grow together
Grow on my dear friends
thank you
I edit this because I missread some treads
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
Edited by year2027Link to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
Now wait a dongone second Todd,
Lack of agreement & questions were met by Clay with foul language, ridicule and beratement. He said or implied that those who disgreed or couldn't see what he was proposing were friggin blind, "entrenched in literalism" and "twi thinking." Clowns...
These are indeed the kind of discussion methods and tactics that Mike uses. I was not comparing the mesage - only the tactics. I think it was a fair comparison.
Too bad to see you defending this kind of stuff. Your threats are rather outlandish.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clay, I made a couple of posts in regards to my views on 1Thessalonians . Nothing in these was was rude, ugly or attacking. You didn't even bother to address them. You ignored me. Fine, thats your perogative i guess.
However this is a doctrinal forum where ideas are discussed. Discussion implies two way dialog. There are bound to be opposing views. Disagreement is not "attack".
If you want to simply post your ideas concering doctrine, scripture or whatever and then make them off limits for debate or discussion (except to those who seem to agree with you) -- then I suggest that this may not be the proper venue.
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
You want to put it out "for consideration"? Cool. But what's YOUR point?
Ah, friggin' demonstartions, my favorite. Edited by OakspearLink to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Whether you agree with what was posted or not is not the point.
Investigating it is.
If you don't want to investigate it, fine with me.
But why bring to the table that which I already know?
And you know I know it.
You are wasting my time And yours. Stay with what you want to believe. Some want to go further then what was shoved down our throats and never seen for ourselves.
This is why I say your thinking is twi'ish and narrow minded. You will not even consider other perspectives.
So once again why are you even posting on this thread?
I made it clear from the beginning it's purpose. If you don't believe it or comprehend that's fine with me. There are those who do. Why do you stand in their way. Everyone already knows what vpw taught on this and you are presenting the same. Just a waste of breath.
And that's all I have to say to those not interested in investigating more of what the deep hidden treasures of God are.
And I didn't call anyone a clown. I said go play with the clowns.
And I also apologized for the direct remarks. Mike has never done that. If you do not accept my apology then it's not my problem. It's yours.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.