I see you posted from Bullinger --in regards to Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Bullinger Says:
Without entering at all into the question of the interpretation of this Scripture,
we would merely call attention to many other passages of Scripture which are perfectly clear and plain as to Man and Death, and to the condition of man "after death." These do not at all agree with what this Scripture seems to teach.
The problem here, is that what may seem "perfectly clear" to one person may not seem "perfectly clear" to another. Bullinger pretty much assumes that all people would or should interpret scripture according to his particular model and methods, which is not always the case.
I would suggest that "scripture" as a whole is not perfectly clear regarding man and death, heaven and hell, and eternal life, at least not as it hs been delivered to us. If it were so clear as Bullinger suggests , there would be little debate and speculation. As I said earlier, not everyone follows Bullinger's rules of interpretation neither do they trust Bullinger's application of his own rules. For example Bullinger was a trinitarian and a cessationist, believing that the gifts/manifestions of the spirit ceased with the death of the apostles. Yet, is it not "perfectly clear" to many that they did not cease? -- Same scriptures.
In regards to "hell".....
In the NT, the King James version translates both hades and gehenna/geenna as "hell" making no distinction in places.
In the New Testament, the King James translates the Greek Hades as both hell and grave. Geenna is always translated as hell. Wheras the NIV always translates hades as grave and geenna as hell.
In the OT, the King James translates the Hebrew "sheol" as both "grave" and "hell" as well as "pit".
However the NIV never translates sheol as "hell", but rather as grave, death, or someting other than "hell".
The Septuagint (Greek OT) translates the Hebrew "sheol" as "hades" and never as geenna or gehenna. However, geenna in Greek may actually come from the Hebrew gay - hinnon - the valley of hinnon, where garbage was burned, bodies were disposed of and children were sometimes sacrificed. See Topeth in the OT.
What does this mean? Possibly that the King James is a poor source for understanding death and "hell", and therefore, where the dead are now, the resurrection and the practical understanding of eternal life. I am not advocating the NIV in particular, I just used it for comparison. Almost none of the modern translations have the word "hell" anywhere in the OT. And in these more modern translations/versions, InN the NT hades is translated grave and geenna is relegated to "hell".
The question then arises, why did the King James translators seemingly randomly translate sheol as both grave and hell? My understanding is that the doctrine of "hell" as a place of eternal punishment and torture for the unrighteous had already been well established by 1611, and that doctrine directed the translation in many places. I wonder how much incluence Dante's writings may have had.
Below are two opposing views concerning "hell" as a place of eternal torment. Not saying either is correct, but I think looking at the differing arguments can be informative.
(The reason I posted upon "hell" at all is that the doctrine of hell that we accept or reject (any of several versions) may directly affect what we might believe regarding eternal life, the dead in Christ, the ressurection, et al.
As far as the story of Lazarus and the rich man, I think Jesus' intended message and purpose is summed up in the last part where He says --- "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." -- alluding to his own death and resurrection. I think the body of this story is probably a fictional allegory, used to illustrate the actual point.
Why not ? because I am already settled with what I believe to be the correct doctrinal and practical interpretations and applications of the subjects per se. JCING, DANA, etc..
Ok then Alan, if you chose not to support your views with cogent thought, or something other than allusions to VPW's books - even it if is just "God told me so", then I'll relegate your comments to those of "bystander" to the discussion.
Alan, have you ever studied or comtemplated this kind of stuff beyond VPW's teachings? If you haven't, I highly encourage you to do so. There is an amazing amount of good stuff out there that goes far beyond what VPW taught. --- Really.
Concerning the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Herzog writes ( Parables as Subversive Speech , pp.129-130):
"Having been surrounded by signs of God's abundant blessing, his own evident prosperity, and even his honorable death, the rich man should have been in Abraham's bosom. By contrast, Lazarus should have been in flames. This portrayal would have confirmed the social system that honored one and discarded the other as shameful. The reversal of their expected fates undermined not simply the hearers' view of the afterlife but, more important, their assumption that present circumstances could be used as a reliable guide for discerning God's judgment or, to put the matter more pointedly, that social class was an indicator of divine blessing or honorable status. Once this connection had been broken, the assorted rural folk of Galilee or Judea could inquire into reasons for their misery that were much closer to home.
In first century Palestine, any such presumed aligning of human fate with divine will involved the sanction of sacred texts, in the case of the parable, the Torah (=Moses) and the Prophets. But Jesus was not making an abstract or generalized appeal to Scripture; he was making an appeal in the context of what had been revealed in the parable about the rich and the destitute. How could the holy and the clean end up in the flames while the unclean poor were taken into the caree of Abraham's bosom when the Torah, as interpreted by Jerusalem scribes, concluded that the opposite should occur? If wealth and poverty were not signs of God's blessing and curse, then how should they be understood? If wealth and poverty were not the result of God's mandate, then what were their causes? If the scribes were wrong about this matter, could they be trusted to interpret the Torah in other matters? The parable discloses a loose thread capable of unraveling a much larger pattern."
Little wonder that someone like a Wierwille, hording the cash and flying about in his private jet and preaching his brand of "prosperity" and "abundant life" - as if these were genuine badges of "righteousness" and true "believing" - couldn't propose an understanding of Jesus' parable there extending beyond the depth of a cardboard cutout. He was totally oblivious to it, and unfortunately, I don't expect his most zealous brown-nosers would venture any farther outside the coziness of that dogmatic hedge he constructed for them.
Of course charities weren't high on the list of the Way's goals - the "poor', after all, apparently comprised mostly of "natural folk" of which the true spiritual elite need not concern themselves. Their "believing" just wasn't up to par (they supposed) - they were where they were because they were in some way deficient in "operating" God's "natural laws".
Oh yeah. Wierwille "reproduced" a certain attitude from the first century alright - unfortunately it wasn't that of Jesus, but of the oppressors of the religious elite He spoke out against.
There is great meaning behind this parable. But it will not be perceived by freeze-framing one's mind within the opinions of a deceased charlatan, who is most likely anywhere but "Abraham's bosom" at this moment.
quote: If we have life and consciousness from the moment we are born, I think it odd, that God would blot out our consciousness when we die, then bring it back at the return. If we have eternity and eternal life, we can not be blotted out for a little bit. If that is so, then we do not really have eternal life. And if we could be blotted out so easily, what's to stop God from doing it again somewhere down the road in eternity? How can you totally trust a God who blots you out here and there for a bit?
But we don't have life and consciousness from the moment we are born. I happen to be 52 years old. This means that if I have averaged 6 hours of sleep per day (which is probably on the conservative side) throughout my life, then I have slept for over 13 years. I have no problem trusting God that I will wake up each time I sleep.
So why should I doubt that God, who is love, will make sure that I get up at the gathering together, and make sure that being awake is part of how we will "ever be with the Lord"?
Dan: Keep in mind that the parable was addressed to Pharisees who were "covetous". So Jesus was willing to humor them and play along with their error about immediate punishments and rewards after death if doing so would allow him to address their covetousness. Eph. 5:5 says that a covetous man is an idolator and Col. 3:5 says that covetousness IS idolatry.
So certainly Jesus' prioroty would be to correct their idolatry rather than pick a doctrinal fight with them about what happens after death. By humoring them Jesus was applying Prov. 26:5 - Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceits.
quote: If the scribes were wrong about this matter, could they be trusted to interpret the Torah in other matters? The parable discloses a loose thread capable of unraveling a much larger pattern."
When you sleep you dream. You are still aware - you are still there.
But I cannot compare sleeping with being dead and loss of consciousness and loss of the soul.
Sunesis - This thought also occurred to me a few years ago. When a person "sleeps", they generally don't cease to exist altogether. As you suggest, "consciousness" (or sub-conscience?) is still seemingly "somewhere else" or active in some way.
There's still so much about the human mind that is not known or understood, despite centuries of attempts in both science and theology to map it all out.
There's still so much about the human mind that is not known or understood, despite centuries of attempts in both science and theology to map it all out.
yeah...there sure are things we still dont understand...the mystery never ends..thank God
but we actually do know quite a bit more than we ever have...a lot more
and...many spiritual traditions had already come to know a lot in ways that we have forgotten or otherwise disregarded
consciousness studies, dreamwork, shadow-work and spirituallity have become a big part of my life since twi days
though such subjects are never easy to bring up around here, for a number of obvious and not-so-obvious reasons
there are some great links at the bottom of the page, too...real white rabbits, i would call them
When you sleep you dream. You are still aware - you are still there.
yeah...and very directly related to the subject of this thread, imo
i would even go as far as to say that there is a place beyond dreams where you are still there.
(which journey is much like dying, if not part of the same actual processes)
and this has been discovered to be an ordinary human capacity,
though if it is not commonly known or practiced...it may seem extraordinary or somehow abnormal
in a sense, part of our human evolution is to find that which has always been there
...which is the nature of awareness itself...I AMness
we are evolving not just to become aware...but to become aware of awareness
whether it is while waking, dreaming, or in deep dreamless sleep
prayer, contemplation, meditation, etc...history and traditions are full of arts/sciences/practices that help prepare us to touch and taste this dying and what lies beyond...before it comes to us "outta the blue" as they say
in this sense, our "spirit" is the very substance of our consciousness...which is the actual clearing where our body and soul dance together
but if we dont believe such a clearing exists...we are like fish who do not know how wet we really are
this is the essence of "spiritual unconsciousness"
we may be aware of our body to some degree
we may be aware of our soul to some degree
but we may not be aware of the nature and substance of awareness itself
the ancients practiced staying awake and aware even into the deepest states of sleep (sometimes called "climbing the mountain of God") only to find out that which already always exists everywhere
...the archetypal "big duh moment"
the Biblical terms "rest" and "witness" have a lot to do with this state of mind...or "mind of Christ"
Just as Eastern religion and its accompanying mysticism has been around for a few thousand years, while Christianity is relatively new, I feel if the Lord tarries, eventually Christianity will evolve and acquire its own mysticism. I mean mysticism in a spiritual sense, not an occult sense. I see many Christians today "waking up" out of their sleep, so to speak. God and Christ are not limited to a book. As the Gospel writer stated, all the books in the world could not contain the things Christ did. I think Bible gives us the truth, points the way and the Holy Spirit, which Christ sent into the world and gave to us who believe, carries us beyond, in a spiritual sense. We need the Word, but the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and gives us a glimpse of another place.
While such phenomena (speaking of transfigurations and brilliant countenances and rainbow bodies and such) are often associated with mysticism in general, including the Christian variety, for Christians the emphasis is elsewhere; specifically, the major emphasis in Christian mysticism concerns a spiritual transformation of the human person, such that they become, as some have put it, more fully human, or fully realized human persons, "created in the Image and Likeness of God." For Christians, this full realization of human potential is realized most perfectly in Jesus and is manifested in others through their association with Him, whether conscious, as in the case of Christian mystics, or unconscious, with regard to persons who follow other traditions, such as Gandhi. The Eastern Christian tradition speaks of this transformation in terms of theosis or divinization, perhaps best summed up by an ancient aphorism usually attributed to Athanasius of Alexandria: "God became human so that humans might become God."
Going back at least to Evagrius Ponticus and Pseudo-Dionysius, Christian mystics have pursued a three-fold path in their pursuit of holiness. While the different aspects of this path have different names in the different Christian traditions, they can be characterized as purgative, illuminative, and unitive, in correspondence to an understanding of human personhood that is three-fold: body, soul (or mind), and spirit. The first, the way of purification, is where aspiring Christian mystics start. This aspect focuses on discipline, particularly in terms of the human body; thus, it emphasizes prayer at certain times, either alone or with others, and in certain postures, often standing or kneeling. It also emphasizes the other disciplines of fasting and alms-giving, the latter including those activities called "the works of mercy," both spiritual and corporal, such as feeding the hungry and sheltering the homeless.
This phase, which forms the basis of Christian spirituality in general, is designed, in the words of St. Paul, to "put to death the deeds of the flesh by the Holy Spirit" (Romans 8:13). The "deeds of the flesh" here includes not only external behavior, but also those habits, attitudes, compulsions, addictions, etc. (sometimes called passions) which oppose themselves to living as a Christian is called to live, not only exteriorly, but interiorly as well. Because of its physical, disciplinary aspect, this phase, as well as the entire Christian spiritual path, is often referred to as "ascetic," a term which is derived from a Greek word referring to athletic training. Because of this, in ancient Christian literature, prominent mystics are often called "spiritual athletes," an image which is also used several times in the New Testament to describe the Christian life. What is sought here is salvation in the original sense of the word, referring not so much to one's eternal fate, but to one's healing, spiritually, mentally and emotionally, and physically.
The second phase, called the path of illumination, has to do with the activity of the Holy Spirit enlightening the mind, giving insights into truths not only explicit in Scripture and the rest of the Christian Tradition, but also those implicit in nature, not in the scientific sense, but rather in terms of an illumination of the "depth" aspects of natural happenings, such that the working of God is perceived in all that one experiences.
The third phase, usually called contemplation in the Western tradition, has to do with the experience of oneself as in some way united with God. This experience of union varies and is difficult to describe. However, it is first and foremost always associated with Divine love, the underlying theme being that God is known or experienced at least as much by the heart as by the intellect since, in the words of the book 1 John 4:16: "God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God and God in him."
Another aspect of traditional Christian spirituality, or mysticism, has to do with its communal nature. Even for hermits, the Christian life is always lived in communion with the Church, the community of believers. Thus, participation in corporate worship, especially the Eucharist, is an essential part of Christian mysticism. Connected with this is the practice of having a spiritual director, confessor, or "soul friend" with which to discuss one's spiritual progress. This person, who may be clerical or lay, acts as a spiritual mentor.
check out the (hugely incomplete) list of Christian mystics towards the bottom of the article
some of whose writings have been available for centuries
...which, of course, were off-limits to us in twi
(except as advanced class junk table material)
some of my favorites from the list are St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul," and anything by (or about) Thomas Merton or Meister Eckhart
and too...considering the cultural roots of Jesus, its hard to completely seperate the lineages of Christian mysticism from those of Jewish mysticism (such as the Kabbalistic movements and those crazy Essenes)
in this sense, Christianity not only took some old traditions further
but also stands on their shoulders as somewhat dependent to them
and to take it a step further...it seems as if many of the eastern lineages (including Buddhism) may have even been strongly influenced by the likes of Abraham (who was also eastern and not a Jew),
which then also points to ole' legendary Melchizadek, and notion of an "Order of Melchizadek," and that kind of archetypal influence on such things... yada yada
but of course, now we are getting way off topic
so...my point...is that, even the past two millenia of Christianity are already saturated with genuine deeply mystic and spiritual lives and writings and experiences which have tons to say about things like "them which are asleep"
...though not to discount what Sunesis said about a present day awakening in Christianity...i see and believe this as well, to a certain degree
anyway...by way of blatant reference to something i wrote earlier, here is my feeble attempt to stay on topic
the subject leading up to the verse seems like general reminders of a lot of different things were taught in person...the bulk of which were most likely delivered live, via oral tradition
seems like a lot about personal responsibility, discipline, love and not to stick your nose in other people's personal spiritual business
which to me, says a lot about that the high value placed on interior awareness that was such a hallmark of early christian discipline...and a shift from earlier religious forms (of conquering the infidels and human slavery and whatnot...all of which are exterior egoic grasping)
4:1-10
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
and then the verse before the one in question...
4:12
That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
its when our highest priority is inward, that we can walk honestly to those who are only outward
i think it's interesting how the word "without" means "outside" or "outward"
which to me, speaks to those who are somehow not aware or numb to their own inward condition
which is to say "full of darkness," or to simply be unaware of one's own deeper motives
due to the fixation on a solely exterior search for Christ and God and happiness and such
(which includes any and every book)
then...
4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
if we go with asleep being somehow "spiritually unconscious" or "dead/numb to the inward man"
and that the "new birth" and "coming of the lord" are other ways of saying "to wake from the dead"...
...the rest of the chapter and the book seems to be telling them to be patient and loving towards those who are "asleep," because eventually everyone is going to "wake up" some way or another on their own time, in their own season, in their own God-given cycle
its not our calling to be more concerned with making others "wake from the dead"
than we are with our own spiritual birthing process
our new calling in Christ is first and forement to go within ourselves and find the door that has always already been wide open
and this would be comforting advice to those who live in a world where unconscious behaviour and lack of self-awareness dominates and manifests into a violent and crazy world
4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
is it possible that these passages have more to do with the arrival and awakening of Christ within
than salvation from without?
it is not hard to also read it as if it is speaking of immediate future possibility for any individual
...rather than some remote future event for everyone at once
5:1-3
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
again...see the parallel between birth and spiritual awakening from the dead?
not everyone asks to be awakened to the inward man,
sometimes events in life comes out of nowhere and wake you up against your will
5:4-10
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
we are not appointed to be wrathful towards those who are asleep
we need to look within first, clean our own cups on the inside, etc...
...
now...if it seems far from what twi and most of modern christianity teaches
that's because it is
they are so radically divergent...that there is no easy bridge between the two theologies
one is mostly exterior based, trying to find something outside to get inside of us
and the other is not. it works on gestating and working out that which has already always been there
(from the beginning, as even scriptures seem to say so often)
i would hope that those who have a negative or angry or fearful reaction to this very different opinion
and think i am somehow deluded
would simply heed the scriptures in question
and please walk honestly and kindly toward me
if i am wrong, i will wake up in my own due time
what i am saying is...i am open to be questioned about my opinion
but in an honest and direct and logical and reasonable way
in the spirit of peace
yada yada yada
That would put me back in....but should some want something else there is plenty of room for more threads.
And I find it interesting that Bullinger actual had some clear thinking although influenced by the Church of England. Clear verses are not what the subject of this thread is dealing with. I listed many verses about this subject from the start. Everyone of them have contexts to them as well and more to understand. Some verses seem clear to some more then others. And is there any limit to what we can gain from learning more about them? They are not set as to have one interpretation only but for the individual who seeks God as Sunesis put it so well.
I also find that Wierwille strayed far away from Bullinger as he writes on how we are to deal with scriptures that we do not understand. Mainly listening to other believers. If the question is who is a believer then one should also listen still. And not jump the gun, so to speak. And we are to wait for more light on the matter, as is being done.
I will always try harder to handle those who only want to contradict and not let a person's thoughts be considered. Timothy is quite clear. As well as Thessolonians.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1 Timothy 6
3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
And if you think these are not wholesome words then you perhaps should listen a bit more. Before you act. Nothing is gained by out wording another, what is happening is many words are being used to convey ideas not to out do another person. And to claim to be some sort of winner.
And if anyone wants to argue with me, about something besides the subject of this thread, you can take it outside of this forum as the rules state. I'm not hard to find. And I also reserve the right to put anyone on ignore as you have that same right.
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Goey
Dancing,
Welcome to GS and to the "doctrinal dungeon".
I see you posted from Bullinger --in regards to Jesus story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Bullinger Says:
The problem here, is that what may seem "perfectly clear" to one person may not seem "perfectly clear" to another. Bullinger pretty much assumes that all people would or should interpret scripture according to his particular model and methods, which is not always the case.
I would suggest that "scripture" as a whole is not perfectly clear regarding man and death, heaven and hell, and eternal life, at least not as it hs been delivered to us. If it were so clear as Bullinger suggests , there would be little debate and speculation. As I said earlier, not everyone follows Bullinger's rules of interpretation neither do they trust Bullinger's application of his own rules. For example Bullinger was a trinitarian and a cessationist, believing that the gifts/manifestions of the spirit ceased with the death of the apostles. Yet, is it not "perfectly clear" to many that they did not cease? -- Same scriptures.
In regards to "hell".....
In the NT, the King James version translates both hades and gehenna/geenna as "hell" making no distinction in places.
In the New Testament, the King James translates the Greek Hades as both hell and grave. Geenna is always translated as hell. Wheras the NIV always translates hades as grave and geenna as hell.
In the OT, the King James translates the Hebrew "sheol" as both "grave" and "hell" as well as "pit".
However the NIV never translates sheol as "hell", but rather as grave, death, or someting other than "hell".
The Septuagint (Greek OT) translates the Hebrew "sheol" as "hades" and never as geenna or gehenna. However, geenna in Greek may actually come from the Hebrew gay - hinnon - the valley of hinnon, where garbage was burned, bodies were disposed of and children were sometimes sacrificed. See Topeth in the OT.
What does this mean? Possibly that the King James is a poor source for understanding death and "hell", and therefore, where the dead are now, the resurrection and the practical understanding of eternal life. I am not advocating the NIV in particular, I just used it for comparison. Almost none of the modern translations have the word "hell" anywhere in the OT. And in these more modern translations/versions, InN the NT hades is translated grave and geenna is relegated to "hell".
The question then arises, why did the King James translators seemingly randomly translate sheol as both grave and hell? My understanding is that the doctrine of "hell" as a place of eternal punishment and torture for the unrighteous had already been well established by 1611, and that doctrine directed the translation in many places. I wonder how much incluence Dante's writings may have had.
Below are two opposing views concerning "hell" as a place of eternal torment. Not saying either is correct, but I think looking at the differing arguments can be informative.
For
Against
(The reason I posted upon "hell" at all is that the doctrine of hell that we accept or reject (any of several versions) may directly affect what we might believe regarding eternal life, the dead in Christ, the ressurection, et al.
As far as the story of Lazarus and the rich man, I think Jesus' intended message and purpose is summed up in the last part where He says --- "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." -- alluding to his own death and resurrection. I think the body of this story is probably a fictional allegory, used to illustrate the actual point.
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Goey
Posted by Alan
Ok then Alan, if you chose not to support your views with cogent thought, or something other than allusions to VPW's books - even it if is just "God told me so", then I'll relegate your comments to those of "bystander" to the discussion.
Alan, have you ever studied or comtemplated this kind of stuff beyond VPW's teachings? If you haven't, I highly encourage you to do so. There is an amazing amount of good stuff out there that goes far beyond what VPW taught. --- Really.
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TheInvisibleDan
Concerning the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Herzog writes ( Parables as Subversive Speech , pp.129-130):
"Having been surrounded by signs of God's abundant blessing, his own evident prosperity, and even his honorable death, the rich man should have been in Abraham's bosom. By contrast, Lazarus should have been in flames. This portrayal would have confirmed the social system that honored one and discarded the other as shameful. The reversal of their expected fates undermined not simply the hearers' view of the afterlife but, more important, their assumption that present circumstances could be used as a reliable guide for discerning God's judgment or, to put the matter more pointedly, that social class was an indicator of divine blessing or honorable status. Once this connection had been broken, the assorted rural folk of Galilee or Judea could inquire into reasons for their misery that were much closer to home.
In first century Palestine, any such presumed aligning of human fate with divine will involved the sanction of sacred texts, in the case of the parable, the Torah (=Moses) and the Prophets. But Jesus was not making an abstract or generalized appeal to Scripture; he was making an appeal in the context of what had been revealed in the parable about the rich and the destitute. How could the holy and the clean end up in the flames while the unclean poor were taken into the caree of Abraham's bosom when the Torah, as interpreted by Jerusalem scribes, concluded that the opposite should occur? If wealth and poverty were not signs of God's blessing and curse, then how should they be understood? If wealth and poverty were not the result of God's mandate, then what were their causes? If the scribes were wrong about this matter, could they be trusted to interpret the Torah in other matters? The parable discloses a loose thread capable of unraveling a much larger pattern."
Little wonder that someone like a Wierwille, hording the cash and flying about in his private jet and preaching his brand of "prosperity" and "abundant life" - as if these were genuine badges of "righteousness" and true "believing" - couldn't propose an understanding of Jesus' parable there extending beyond the depth of a cardboard cutout. He was totally oblivious to it, and unfortunately, I don't expect his most zealous brown-nosers would venture any farther outside the coziness of that dogmatic hedge he constructed for them.
Of course charities weren't high on the list of the Way's goals - the "poor', after all, apparently comprised mostly of "natural folk" of which the true spiritual elite need not concern themselves. Their "believing" just wasn't up to par (they supposed) - they were where they were because they were in some way deficient in "operating" God's "natural laws".
Oh yeah. Wierwille "reproduced" a certain attitude from the first century alright - unfortunately it wasn't that of Jesus, but of the oppressors of the religious elite He spoke out against.
There is great meaning behind this parable. But it will not be perceived by freeze-framing one's mind within the opinions of a deceased charlatan, who is most likely anywhere but "Abraham's bosom" at this moment.
Danny
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johniam
quote: If we have life and consciousness from the moment we are born, I think it odd, that God would blot out our consciousness when we die, then bring it back at the return. If we have eternity and eternal life, we can not be blotted out for a little bit. If that is so, then we do not really have eternal life. And if we could be blotted out so easily, what's to stop God from doing it again somewhere down the road in eternity? How can you totally trust a God who blots you out here and there for a bit?
But we don't have life and consciousness from the moment we are born. I happen to be 52 years old. This means that if I have averaged 6 hours of sleep per day (which is probably on the conservative side) throughout my life, then I have slept for over 13 years. I have no problem trusting God that I will wake up each time I sleep.
So why should I doubt that God, who is love, will make sure that I get up at the gathering together, and make sure that being awake is part of how we will "ever be with the Lord"?
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johniam
Dan: Keep in mind that the parable was addressed to Pharisees who were "covetous". So Jesus was willing to humor them and play along with their error about immediate punishments and rewards after death if doing so would allow him to address their covetousness. Eph. 5:5 says that a covetous man is an idolator and Col. 3:5 says that covetousness IS idolatry.
So certainly Jesus' prioroty would be to correct their idolatry rather than pick a doctrinal fight with them about what happens after death. By humoring them Jesus was applying Prov. 26:5 - Answer a fool according to his folly lest he be wise in his own conceits.
quote: If the scribes were wrong about this matter, could they be trusted to interpret the Torah in other matters? The parable discloses a loose thread capable of unraveling a much larger pattern."
Oh, yeah! Definitely.
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Sunesis
When you sleep you dream. You are still aware - you are still there.
But I cannot compare sleeping with being dead and loss of consciousness and loss of the soul.
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TheInvisibleDan
Sunesis - This thought also occurred to me a few years ago. When a person "sleeps", they generally don't cease to exist altogether. As you suggest, "consciousness" (or sub-conscience?) is still seemingly "somewhere else" or active in some way.
There's still so much about the human mind that is not known or understood, despite centuries of attempts in both science and theology to map it all out.
Johniam, very good points as well.
Danny
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sirguessalot
but we actually do know quite a bit more than we ever have...a lot more
and...many spiritual traditions had already come to know a lot in ways that we have forgotten or otherwise disregarded
consciousness studies, dreamwork, shadow-work and spirituallity have become a big part of my life since twi days
though such subjects are never easy to bring up around here, for a number of obvious and not-so-obvious reasons
a good place to start: Consciousness
there are some great links at the bottom of the page, too...real white rabbits, i would call them
yeah...and very directly related to the subject of this thread, imoi would even go as far as to say that there is a place beyond dreams where you are still there.
(which journey is much like dying, if not part of the same actual processes)
and this has been discovered to be an ordinary human capacity,
though if it is not commonly known or practiced...it may seem extraordinary or somehow abnormal
in a sense, part of our human evolution is to find that which has always been there
...which is the nature of awareness itself...I AMness
we are evolving not just to become aware...but to become aware of awareness
whether it is while waking, dreaming, or in deep dreamless sleep
prayer, contemplation, meditation, etc...history and traditions are full of arts/sciences/practices that help prepare us to touch and taste this dying and what lies beyond...before it comes to us "outta the blue" as they say
in this sense, our "spirit" is the very substance of our consciousness...which is the actual clearing where our body and soul dance together
but if we dont believe such a clearing exists...we are like fish who do not know how wet we really are
this is the essence of "spiritual unconsciousness"
we may be aware of our body to some degree
we may be aware of our soul to some degree
but we may not be aware of the nature and substance of awareness itself
the ancients practiced staying awake and aware even into the deepest states of sleep (sometimes called "climbing the mountain of God") only to find out that which already always exists everywhere
...the archetypal "big duh moment"
the Biblical terms "rest" and "witness" have a lot to do with this state of mind...or "mind of Christ"
"Christ Consciousness" it has been called
anyway...that's my ramble for this morning
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Sunesis
Nice Ramble Sirguess!
Just as Eastern religion and its accompanying mysticism has been around for a few thousand years, while Christianity is relatively new, I feel if the Lord tarries, eventually Christianity will evolve and acquire its own mysticism. I mean mysticism in a spiritual sense, not an occult sense. I see many Christians today "waking up" out of their sleep, so to speak. God and Christ are not limited to a book. As the Gospel writer stated, all the books in the world could not contain the things Christ did. I think Bible gives us the truth, points the way and the Holy Spirit, which Christ sent into the world and gave to us who believe, carries us beyond, in a spiritual sense. We need the Word, but the Holy Spirit opens our eyes and gives us a glimpse of another place.
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sirguessalot
thanks Sunesis
well...to add...i think that Christianity has already experienced some deeply mystic and monastic waves
(which were most often quite seperate movements from those of common church history)
who had a lot to say about the benefits of a kind of spiritual death in this life
...not because of what they found in word studies...but from actually having "touched" it for themselves
here is a wikipedia article on Christian Mysticism
check out the (hugely incomplete) list of Christian mystics towards the bottom of the article
some of whose writings have been available for centuries
...which, of course, were off-limits to us in twi
(except as advanced class junk table material)
some of my favorites from the list are St. John of the Cross's "Dark Night of the Soul," and anything by (or about) Thomas Merton or Meister Eckhart
and too...considering the cultural roots of Jesus, its hard to completely seperate the lineages of Christian mysticism from those of Jewish mysticism (such as the Kabbalistic movements and those crazy Essenes)
in this sense, Christianity not only took some old traditions further
but also stands on their shoulders as somewhat dependent to them
and to take it a step further...it seems as if many of the eastern lineages (including Buddhism) may have even been strongly influenced by the likes of Abraham (who was also eastern and not a Jew),
which then also points to ole' legendary Melchizadek, and notion of an "Order of Melchizadek," and that kind of archetypal influence on such things... yada yada
but of course, now we are getting way off topic
so...my point...is that, even the past two millenia of Christianity are already saturated with genuine deeply mystic and spiritual lives and writings and experiences which have tons to say about things like "them which are asleep"
...though not to discount what Sunesis said about a present day awakening in Christianity...i see and believe this as well, to a certain degree
anyway...by way of blatant reference to something i wrote earlier, here is my feeble attempt to stay on topic
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sirguessalot
hehe...this part just reminded me of something else
i'm not sure if it was Jung or Einstein who said it, but from what i recall, they said:
"in the 21st century, our scientists will become mystics, and our clergy will become psychologists"
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CM
That would put me back in....but should some want something else there is plenty of room for more threads.
And I find it interesting that Bullinger actual had some clear thinking although influenced by the Church of England. Clear verses are not what the subject of this thread is dealing with. I listed many verses about this subject from the start. Everyone of them have contexts to them as well and more to understand. Some verses seem clear to some more then others. And is there any limit to what we can gain from learning more about them? They are not set as to have one interpretation only but for the individual who seeks God as Sunesis put it so well.
I also find that Wierwille strayed far away from Bullinger as he writes on how we are to deal with scriptures that we do not understand. Mainly listening to other believers. If the question is who is a believer then one should also listen still. And not jump the gun, so to speak. And we are to wait for more light on the matter, as is being done.
I will always try harder to handle those who only want to contradict and not let a person's thoughts be considered. Timothy is quite clear. As well as Thessolonians.
2 Thessalonians 3:6
6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1 Timothy 6
3If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
And if you think these are not wholesome words then you perhaps should listen a bit more. Before you act. Nothing is gained by out wording another, what is happening is many words are being used to convey ideas not to out do another person. And to claim to be some sort of winner.
And if anyone wants to argue with me, about something besides the subject of this thread, you can take it outside of this forum as the rules state. I'm not hard to find. And I also reserve the right to put anyone on ignore as you have that same right.
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CM
Didn't mean to stop your conversation Todd and Sunesis.....
Please carry on.
Don't mind me I just blew off some steam,
and was encouraged to stay here with this from more then 1 person.
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markomalley
Brought to the top for free2love to read.
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year2027
God first
Beloved free2love
God loves you my dear friend
markomalley is right its a good read you will enjoy
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dancing
A very good read indeed!
I have some more for another thread on another day too.
The replies to the subject have helped me tremendously.
Love, Clay
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