Where does God's justice fit into all of this? His righteousness, which I was lovingly given, payed for man's transgression. So does this mean, to you, that since all is paid, ALL IS PAID?
just wondering
Hi bliss,
Yes I believe all is paid for.
The goodness of God.
The future with our God in Christ will leave this present heavens and earth into the new.
All will be dissolved for us all with it's fervent heat as Peter says.
What the results will be is not my call, and I do believe that rightousness will somehow be rewarded.
Don't know how it will all work out.
I'm sorry I don't know it all but as we question and search we grow and just be ourselves with all the love that is in us and shoot, I don't worry about it. I have enough confidence that no one will miss out on what He has in store for us.
Sorry I haven't responded, I've been working and taking care of some family things. I realize I should have explained my thinking on Ezekiel 32 more.
First off, I do believe, in Ecc. 3:11 where it says that God has put eternity in our hearts, that he means this literally. We are eternal beings - our flesh is not, but our soul is.
For the last couple of years I have read quite a few "near death experiences" ("NDEs") - its an interesting topic which for some reason, I became interested in. The more you read, the more you see the similarities and commonalities in these experiences.
The ones I found very interesting though are the ones that were not so nice - in fact downright terrifying, where the person found himself in hell (no, not a burning lake) - a place where there is no God, a nightmare that only Christ could rescue them from. Many of these have eerily similar commonalities. They describe a descending pit, with cubes on either side stacked or lining the walls of the pit. Each person has their own cube where they await the final judgment. As, in Ezekiel 20, 21, these people wait on their "bed" (or literally "chamber" in the Hebrew) for the final judgment.
They are in torment. It is not God tormenting or torturing them, it is their mind. While in their cube, or chamber, they live in a world without God, as was their desire, and relive the lives they have led. The best work I ever read on this was a book called, The Unknown Land: Hell's Dominion (available on Amazon).
But it is a common theme, that people who survive these unpleasant journeys, describe the pit, the cubes, or some call them cells, that people are in, while fallen angels, demons or whatever you want to call them play with them in their cells, maybe pretending to be a relative, friend, and afflict the same things on them they did while on earth.
That's why I mentioned Ezekiel 32, it is similar to these experiences, the ones who have gone to the grave, down into the pit, and are awaiting final judgment, like as with the queen upon her bed (or in her chamber) in Ezekiel.
The account Christ gave regarding Lazarus is also interesting. The rich man had a memory of this life, could hear, could see, could remember, could communicate - he was consciously aware. There was a gulf between where he was and "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise (Abraham's Bosom was another euphimism for paradise, before it was available to enter into heaven). When Christ died, he went to this place - the grave or sheol, and preached, he also released those in Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise and, by what he had accomplished through his holiness, he brought them to heaven with him. Imagine their surprise, those OT believers when the redeemer they had believed for, died for and been martyred for, whom they had believed in, a promise afar off, but never lived to see on earth, when he came for them.
So, to me, the latter part of Eze. 32, from verse 20 on, seems to give an interesting description of life in the grave and corresponds in some ways to what people have experienced and come back to write about.
Christ also admonishes us to guard your soul. Don't worry about he who can kill the body, but he who can destroy your soul (in hell) - note, it does not say kill your soul.
I also believe God means it when he says he is not the God of the dead but of the living. The eternal soul is that, eternal. Where it chooses to go - he must give it its desire.
No matter where it chooses to go - God will not, and cannot kill it. He will give it its own habitat, fitting with its nature, but he will not kill. That's why I think when people say, oh, when you die you fade out, its oblivion, there is no "hell," etc., its basically putting off a choice.
There is much more about the soul in the Word, and about sheol, the grave, etc. I do believe, in these days, God is calling people to him and bringing to light things that were once known and understood, but lost, or swept under the rug, and trying to get people to see the seriousness of their choices.
Anyway, as some of you know, that's my opinion, and of course, as time goes on, it is subject to change. :)
The parable of Lazarus was an old Jewish tradition that Jesus used as a teaching tool to relay a certain point at the time.
This is one that I never understood. It doesn't appear to make sense. Why would Jesus use something that was not biblically true to illustrate a point? His using it seems to validate the POV that the dead aren't really dead. And why would there be an "old Jewish tradition" about dead people spouting complete sentences and apparently being alive after death when the OT supposedly has a "when you're dead you're dead" position?
Do you have a source for your assertion that the parable is an "old Jewish tradition"?
Actually, Oakspear, you will find many Jewish traditions and tales that contradict each other. As you will find many Jews who disagree on the life after death issue. A big part of Judaism is debate. We are encouraged to debate the meaning of the scriptures. Likewise many, perhaps even most, Jews believe there are many layers of meanings within the scriptures.
There are certain traditions that are held sacred - such as the lighting of the sabbath candles, but even there, there is a lot of variance in terms of the ritual. But the idea is that we are all lighting the candles nonetheless. We are all united, connected, regardless of our differences.
quote: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I don't believe this is talking about people who are dead physically necessarily.
OK I have some questions.
The phrase "sleep in Jesus" in v. 14 clearly agrees with "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" earlier in the verse. So Jesus' death wasn't physical?
The phrase "them which are asleep" in v. 15 clearly agrees with "we which are alive and remain" earlier in the verse. So our current life isn't physical?
The following events...1)the Lord descending from heaven with a shout, 2)the voice of the archangel, 3) the trump of God, and 4)being caught up in the clouds to ever be with the Lord are clearly one time events corresponding to the gathering together. What does this have to do with a believer's walk with God prior to the gathering together?
Where is the comfort in being risen from the dead if you're not physically dead??????????
Actually, Oakspear, you will find many Jewish traditions and tales that contradict each other. As you will find many Jews who disagree on the life after death issue. A big part of Judaism is debate. We are encouraged to debate the meaning of the scriptures. Likewise many, perhaps even most, Jews believe there are many layers of meanings within the scriptures.
There are certain traditions that are held sacred - such as the lighting of the sabbath candles, but even there, there is a lot of variance in terms of the ritual. But the idea is that we are all lighting the candles nonetheless. We are all united, connected, regardless of our differences.
yeah, Abi...well said
this is something i just love about some of the Rabbis i have met, and about those whose traditions are not as hellbent on accuracy and rightness...they know the importance of a good story, and a good, living sense of ritual...and are comfortable with a sense of the endless mystery
and how, like our lives, all scripture (and sacred oral tradition) is really just divine story...and that could be more important and more valuable to us once we learn to let go of our death grip on interpretation
i think we are somehow more free when we can be like this in our spiritual life
Actually, when Christ lay in the tomb for 3 days and nights, there is no record of him having gone anywhere.
Surely of all people, Jesus would have had an after death experience ??
After God raised him up, he went and preached to imprisoned spirits.
Christian literature abounds with such "records" of the Spirit of Jesus, immediately upon His death, having descended into the underworld and having busted open the gates of Hades to liberate the "captives".
Such tales go back to the earliest times of Christian history, apparently having influenced the writer behind "1 Peter" as well as emerging throughout an abundance of extra-canonical literature. Such a episode, as typically described in the "Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate", was commonplace among both so-called proto-orthodox and gnostic Christian movements, with a few variations.
E.W. Bullinger explains the verses quite well (as Abbey said, Jewish folklores and traditions) Jesus point was not life after death or death after life but the fact that if 'truth hit them over the head with a baseball bat, they STILL WOULD NOT BELIEVE'.
No One Passage to be Interpreted in a Sense Repugnant to Others.
This Canon is laid down in the twentieth of "the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion" of the Church of England.
That article treats of "The Authority of the Church." It says: "The Church hath power to decree Rites or Ceremonies, and authority in Controversies of Faith: and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God's Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture that it be repugnant to another..."
With the claim here made as to "The Authority of the Church" we are not now concerned; but we cannot deny that, in the latter clause quoted, we have a very important principle laid down: a principle which we shall do well ever to bear in mind in our study of the "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth."
This principle is true: because, as no one text is repugnant to another, it is clear that to explain one as being so repugnant, is what cannot lawfully be done.
If one passage appears to be repugnant to others, then there is something amiss either in the translation of it, or in our understanding of it.
In either case it behooves us to examine it and see where the fault lies. The one, apparently more difficult passage, must be understood, explained, and interpreted by the others which are quite plain and clear.
If this method be not possible, then the difficult passage must be left unsolved for the present, with the prayer that God will, in His own time, bestow the needed grace and light. But in no case must we allow that one difficult passage to disturb all the others which are clear; nor must we give heed for a moment to any false teaching which Tradition may have founded upon its misunderstanding or perversion of that one passage, whether through ignorance or malice.
1. We may apply this Canon to the Scripture concerning "the Rich man and Lazarus."
Without entering at all into the question of the interpretation of this Scripture, we would merely call attention to many other passages of Scripture which are perfectly clear and plain as to Man and Death, and to the condition of man "after death." These do not at all agree with what this Scripture seems to teach.
What then is our duty as humble students of, and firm believers in, the truth of all and of every part of God's Word?
Are we to believe one and leave the others?
Are we to explain the one to our own satisfaction, and then explain the others away?
This is clearly impossible, though it is what the majority of Bible readers do!
If we cannot reconcile them, then let us wait for further light, and "with meekness, and all lowliness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love," "let each esteem other better than ourselves," and let us each suffer long with other fellow-believers, who think they see a way of interpreting all that is said on this subject in Scripture, in harmony with Scripture, and with satisfaction to their own consciences before God.
Interesting points. I think my point about Lazarus and this parable Jesus taught, is that, every other parable Jesus taught, had a deep truth. They were all based on truth. A mustard seed, a fig tree, etc.
I cannot understand why Jesus would use something not true, or false, to illustrate his point that there is more to life than what we see on this earth with our 5 senses. I cannot see him lying about this other place.
His going to sheol and preaching to the spirits which were imprisoned (the ones held who tried to destroy mankind in Gen. 6 by hybredization), those held captive, and releasing them and bringing them with him to Heaven, i.e., the firstfruits, the first sheaf, I find not so far fetched.
As to those who are "dead in Christ." Where are they now? In Christ. When we are told they will be raised, I believe this is when they receive their new bodies, right now they are seated, then they will be raised. But they are with him now. I also note Paul believed when he died he would be with Christ. If we have life and consciousness from the moment we are born, I think it odd, that God would blot out our consciousness when we die, then bring it back at the return. If we have eternity and eternal life, we can not be blotted out for a little bit. If that is so, then we do not really have eternal life. And if we could be blotted out so easily, what's to stop God from doing it again somewhere down the road in eternity? How can you totally trust a God who blots you out here and there for a bit?
This "sleep," blot-out doctrine we were taught in TWI, is called the doctrine of annihilation. Most mainstream Christian churches, organizations and early doctrine do not agree with it.
That would be a good job for you Alan, since you suggested it.
Why not gather those scriptures that use the term "in Christ" and then, using your own critical thinking ability, void of any predetermined outcome, do an exposition upon them, explaining what the term "in Christ" means biblically.
Why not ? because I am already settled with what I believe to be the correct doctrinal and practical interpretations and applications of the subjects per se. JCING, DANA, etc..
In Christ, put on Christ, mind of Christ, Christ in you, etc.. do nothing but extol the position of 'asleep in Christ'. JohnIam also again reiterated the scripture in its' 'near context' to dead and alive.
Any more (imo) is 'striving about words' which has no profit.
I try to balance my reading with 'moving' the gospel out in the community. More often than not my time swings towards the 'moving' part.
maybe I can help because I did a search on "in Christ"
search for in Christ English word “in Christ” and it was used 77 times in 76 verses
Acts 24:24 Rom 3:24 Rom 8:1 Rom 8:2 Rom 8:39 Rom 9:1 Rom 12:5 Rom 16:3 Rom 16:7 Rom 16:9 Rom 16:10 1 Cor 1:2 1 Cor 1:30 1 Cor 3:1 1 Cor 4:10 1 Cor 4:15 1 Cor 4:17 1 Cor 15:18
1 Cor 15:19 1 Cor 15:22 1 Cor 15:31 1 Cor 16:24 2 Cor 1:21 2 Cor 2:14 2 Cor 2:17 2 Cor 3:14 2 Cor 5:17 2 Cor 5:19 2 Cor 11:3 2 Cor 12:2 2 Cor 12:19 Gal 1:22 Gal 2:4 Gal 3:17 Gal 3:26 Gal 3:28
Gal 6:15 Eph 1:1 Eph 1:3 Eph 1:10 Eph 1:12 Eph 1:20 Eph 2:6 Eph 2:10 Eph 2:13 Eph 3:6 Eph 3:11 Phil 1:1 Phil 1:13 Phil 2:1
Phil 2:5 Phil 3:3 Phil 3:14 Phil 4:21 Col 1:2 Col 1:4 Col 1:28 Col 2:5 1 Th 2:14 1 Th 4:16 1 Th 5:18 1 Tim 1:14 1 Tim 2:7 1 Tim 3:13 2 Tim 1:1 2 Tim 1:9 2 Tim 1:13 2 Tim 2:1 2 Tim 2:10 2 Tim 3:12 2 Tim 3:15 Phile 1:6 Phile 1:8 Phile 1:23 1 Pet 3:16 1 Pet 5:14
in = G-unknown
Christ = G5547. Christos, khris-tos'; from G5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
All verses used the same Greek word
But the word Christ only is used 569 times in 530 verses
Mat 1:1 Mat 1:16 Mat 1:17 Mat 1:18 Mat 2:4
2 Cor 11:3 2 Cor 11:10 2 Cor 11:13 2 Cor 11:23
Eph 1:1 Eph 1:2 Eph 1:3
Rev 1:1 Rev 1:2 Rev 1:5 Rev 22:21
I hope this is enough of the many verses but it should give you a picture or you could just ask God
I myself am never happy with what I understand I allways want to check and recheck learn more and more, see a biger picture of truth each day and second
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CM
lol dmiller...
Did it play?
our minds can see many things, God is a Fire
And to lighten up the thread.
Context? lol..I don't care, it was just for entertainment.
And I like the song.
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CM
Hi bliss,
Yes I believe all is paid for.
The goodness of God.
The future with our God in Christ will leave this present heavens and earth into the new.
All will be dissolved for us all with it's fervent heat as Peter says.
What the results will be is not my call, and I do believe that rightousness will somehow be rewarded.
Don't know how it will all work out.
I'm sorry I don't know it all but as we question and search we grow and just be ourselves with all the love that is in us and shoot, I don't worry about it. I have enough confidence that no one will miss out on what He has in store for us.
Love
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allan w.
Like I said...the 'one event' you've half quoted is talking about dying.
Afterwards ...'judgement'
Afterwards...'ressurection to life' and resurrection to second death'.
Afterwards...'new heaven and new earth'.
This appears to be the sequential events.
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CM
you want to clarify that allan?
lol....
what appears to be...yeah that's right
since you know what's "half quoted"
you must know what is not
yeah..you could even start your own thread
or religion or doomsday machine
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CM
Allan's thinking I believe is exactly what 1 Thessolonians 4 is addressing in part.
That the dead and asleep and others which have no hope God will bring with him.
One can have no hope and be without God for a variety of reasons.
Not being taught correctly like so many that want to separate and divide.
How many religions and people claim this? that others will not have eternal life?
Mainly ignorance which is directly addressed by the Word of the Lord.
To those who have ears to hear and eyes to see it.
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CM
How's that? 15 friggin pages to make the point.
How's that for friggin Flawless?
and all anyone else will get from me on this thread
is this song that i'll post again, then i'm done with it!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzlspzYfN3s...elmo%27s%20fire
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allan w.
15 friggin' pages and your point still aint valid (imo) But that's the nature of a religious forum !!
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Goey
Hmm, I can read, at least I think I can, and I don't always know what they say.
So then, if what others "know" is not the same as what you "know" then they can't read?
Very interesting proposition ...
Funny, the last time I was tested I scored in the top 5 percentile in reading
comprehension. I guess the test I took must have been flawed. Or maybe
it was just that the test didn't include the intepretation of the book of
Ecclesiasties, one of the most difficult books in the OT.
Ecclesiastes - Jewish Encyclopedia
Ecclesiastes - Overview Commenary
Ecclesiastes - Wikipedia
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Sunesis
Sorry I haven't responded, I've been working and taking care of some family things. I realize I should have explained my thinking on Ezekiel 32 more.
First off, I do believe, in Ecc. 3:11 where it says that God has put eternity in our hearts, that he means this literally. We are eternal beings - our flesh is not, but our soul is.
For the last couple of years I have read quite a few "near death experiences" ("NDEs") - its an interesting topic which for some reason, I became interested in. The more you read, the more you see the similarities and commonalities in these experiences.
The ones I found very interesting though are the ones that were not so nice - in fact downright terrifying, where the person found himself in hell (no, not a burning lake) - a place where there is no God, a nightmare that only Christ could rescue them from. Many of these have eerily similar commonalities. They describe a descending pit, with cubes on either side stacked or lining the walls of the pit. Each person has their own cube where they await the final judgment. As, in Ezekiel 20, 21, these people wait on their "bed" (or literally "chamber" in the Hebrew) for the final judgment.
They are in torment. It is not God tormenting or torturing them, it is their mind. While in their cube, or chamber, they live in a world without God, as was their desire, and relive the lives they have led. The best work I ever read on this was a book called, The Unknown Land: Hell's Dominion (available on Amazon).
But it is a common theme, that people who survive these unpleasant journeys, describe the pit, the cubes, or some call them cells, that people are in, while fallen angels, demons or whatever you want to call them play with them in their cells, maybe pretending to be a relative, friend, and afflict the same things on them they did while on earth.
That's why I mentioned Ezekiel 32, it is similar to these experiences, the ones who have gone to the grave, down into the pit, and are awaiting final judgment, like as with the queen upon her bed (or in her chamber) in Ezekiel.
The account Christ gave regarding Lazarus is also interesting. The rich man had a memory of this life, could hear, could see, could remember, could communicate - he was consciously aware. There was a gulf between where he was and "Abraham's Bosom" or Paradise (Abraham's Bosom was another euphimism for paradise, before it was available to enter into heaven). When Christ died, he went to this place - the grave or sheol, and preached, he also released those in Abraham's Bosom, or Paradise and, by what he had accomplished through his holiness, he brought them to heaven with him. Imagine their surprise, those OT believers when the redeemer they had believed for, died for and been martyred for, whom they had believed in, a promise afar off, but never lived to see on earth, when he came for them.
So, to me, the latter part of Eze. 32, from verse 20 on, seems to give an interesting description of life in the grave and corresponds in some ways to what people have experienced and come back to write about.
Christ also admonishes us to guard your soul. Don't worry about he who can kill the body, but he who can destroy your soul (in hell) - note, it does not say kill your soul.
I also believe God means it when he says he is not the God of the dead but of the living. The eternal soul is that, eternal. Where it chooses to go - he must give it its desire.
No matter where it chooses to go - God will not, and cannot kill it. He will give it its own habitat, fitting with its nature, but he will not kill. That's why I think when people say, oh, when you die you fade out, its oblivion, there is no "hell," etc., its basically putting off a choice.
There is much more about the soul in the Word, and about sheol, the grave, etc. I do believe, in these days, God is calling people to him and bringing to light things that were once known and understood, but lost, or swept under the rug, and trying to get people to see the seriousness of their choices.
Anyway, as some of you know, that's my opinion, and of course, as time goes on, it is subject to change. :)
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allan w.
Actually, when Christ lay in the tomb for 3 days and nights, there is no record of him having gone anywhere.
Surely of all people, Jesus would have had an after death experience ??
After God raised him up, he went and preached to imprisoned spirits.
The parable of Lazarus was an old Jewish tradition that Jesus used as a teaching tool to relay a certain point at the time.
Regarding nde's...the vast majority of people who recover have no 'experiences' whatsoever !
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bliss
actually, Jesus paved the way for this, after he was raised! So, he had to be dead, just like everyone before him..........
and how do you know, Allen, "the vast majority????" You studied this, what is your source?
I don't know if I believe anything about anything yet, but, I ain't taking yours or anyone elses word on it!!!
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Oakspear
Do you have a source for your assertion that the parable is an "old Jewish tradition"?
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Abigail
Actually, Oakspear, you will find many Jewish traditions and tales that contradict each other. As you will find many Jews who disagree on the life after death issue. A big part of Judaism is debate. We are encouraged to debate the meaning of the scriptures. Likewise many, perhaps even most, Jews believe there are many layers of meanings within the scriptures.
There are certain traditions that are held sacred - such as the lighting of the sabbath candles, but even there, there is a lot of variance in terms of the ritual. But the idea is that we are all lighting the candles nonetheless. We are all united, connected, regardless of our differences.
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johniam
quote: 13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I don't believe this is talking about people who are dead physically necessarily.
OK I have some questions.
The phrase "sleep in Jesus" in v. 14 clearly agrees with "if we believe that Jesus died and rose again" earlier in the verse. So Jesus' death wasn't physical?
The phrase "them which are asleep" in v. 15 clearly agrees with "we which are alive and remain" earlier in the verse. So our current life isn't physical?
The following events...1)the Lord descending from heaven with a shout, 2)the voice of the archangel, 3) the trump of God, and 4)being caught up in the clouds to ever be with the Lord are clearly one time events corresponding to the gathering together. What does this have to do with a believer's walk with God prior to the gathering together?
Where is the comfort in being risen from the dead if you're not physically dead??????????
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sirguessalot
yeah, Abi...well said
this is something i just love about some of the Rabbis i have met, and about those whose traditions are not as hellbent on accuracy and rightness...they know the importance of a good story, and a good, living sense of ritual...and are comfortable with a sense of the endless mystery
and how, like our lives, all scripture (and sacred oral tradition) is really just divine story...and that could be more important and more valuable to us once we learn to let go of our death grip on interpretation
i think we are somehow more free when we can be like this in our spiritual life
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TheInvisibleDan
Christian literature abounds with such "records" of the Spirit of Jesus, immediately upon His death, having descended into the underworld and having busted open the gates of Hades to liberate the "captives".
Such tales go back to the earliest times of Christian history, apparently having influenced the writer behind "1 Peter" as well as emerging throughout an abundance of extra-canonical literature. Such a episode, as typically described in the "Gospel of Nicodemus/Acts of Pilate", was commonplace among both so-called proto-orthodox and gnostic Christian movements, with a few variations.
Danny
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allan w.
E.W. Bullinger explains the verses quite well (as Abbey said, Jewish folklores and traditions) Jesus point was not life after death or death after life but the fact that if 'truth hit them over the head with a baseball bat, they STILL WOULD NOT BELIEVE'.
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dancing
Back | Contents | Forward
How to Enjoy the Bible
by E. W. Bullinger
1916
Part II—The Words
Canon VII
No One Passage to be Interpreted in a Sense Repugnant to Others.
This Canon is laid down in the twentieth of "the Thirty-nine Articles of Religion" of the Church of England.
That article treats of "The Authority of the Church." It says: "The Church hath power to decree Rites or Ceremonies, and authority in Controversies of Faith: and yet it is not lawful for the Church to ordain any thing that is contrary to God's Word written, neither may it so expound one place of Scripture that it be repugnant to another..."
With the claim here made as to "The Authority of the Church" we are not now concerned; but we cannot deny that, in the latter clause quoted, we have a very important principle laid down: a principle which we shall do well ever to bear in mind in our study of the "words which the Holy Ghost teacheth."
This principle is true: because, as no one text is repugnant to another, it is clear that to explain one as being so repugnant, is what cannot lawfully be done.
If one passage appears to be repugnant to others, then there is something amiss either in the translation of it, or in our understanding of it.
In either case it behooves us to examine it and see where the fault lies. The one, apparently more difficult passage, must be understood, explained, and interpreted by the others which are quite plain and clear.
If this method be not possible, then the difficult passage must be left unsolved for the present, with the prayer that God will, in His own time, bestow the needed grace and light. But in no case must we allow that one difficult passage to disturb all the others which are clear; nor must we give heed for a moment to any false teaching which Tradition may have founded upon its misunderstanding or perversion of that one passage, whether through ignorance or malice.
1. We may apply this Canon to the Scripture concerning "the Rich man and Lazarus."
Without entering at all into the question of the interpretation of this Scripture, we would merely call attention to many other passages of Scripture which are perfectly clear and plain as to Man and Death, and to the condition of man "after death." These do not at all agree with what this Scripture seems to teach.
What then is our duty as humble students of, and firm believers in, the truth of all and of every part of God's Word?
Are we to believe one and leave the others?
Are we to explain the one to our own satisfaction, and then explain the others away?
This is clearly impossible, though it is what the majority of Bible readers do!
If we cannot reconcile them, then let us wait for further light, and "with meekness, and all lowliness, with long-suffering, forbearing one another in love," "let each esteem other better than ourselves," and let us each suffer long with other fellow-believers, who think they see a way of interpreting all that is said on this subject in Scripture, in harmony with Scripture, and with satisfaction to their own consciences before God.
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Sunesis
Interesting points. I think my point about Lazarus and this parable Jesus taught, is that, every other parable Jesus taught, had a deep truth. They were all based on truth. A mustard seed, a fig tree, etc.
I cannot understand why Jesus would use something not true, or false, to illustrate his point that there is more to life than what we see on this earth with our 5 senses. I cannot see him lying about this other place.
His going to sheol and preaching to the spirits which were imprisoned (the ones held who tried to destroy mankind in Gen. 6 by hybredization), those held captive, and releasing them and bringing them with him to Heaven, i.e., the firstfruits, the first sheaf, I find not so far fetched.
As to those who are "dead in Christ." Where are they now? In Christ. When we are told they will be raised, I believe this is when they receive their new bodies, right now they are seated, then they will be raised. But they are with him now. I also note Paul believed when he died he would be with Christ. If we have life and consciousness from the moment we are born, I think it odd, that God would blot out our consciousness when we die, then bring it back at the return. If we have eternity and eternal life, we can not be blotted out for a little bit. If that is so, then we do not really have eternal life. And if we could be blotted out so easily, what's to stop God from doing it again somewhere down the road in eternity? How can you totally trust a God who blots you out here and there for a bit?
This "sleep," blot-out doctrine we were taught in TWI, is called the doctrine of annihilation. Most mainstream Christian churches, organizations and early doctrine do not agree with it.
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allan w.
Maybe look up the phrase' in Christ'.
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Goey
That would be a good job for you Alan, since you suggested it.
Why not gather those scriptures that use the term "in Christ" and then, using your own critical thinking ability, void of any predetermined outcome, do an exposition upon them, explaining what the term "in Christ" means biblically.
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allan w.
Why not ? because I am already settled with what I believe to be the correct doctrinal and practical interpretations and applications of the subjects per se. JCING, DANA, etc..
In Christ, put on Christ, mind of Christ, Christ in you, etc.. do nothing but extol the position of 'asleep in Christ'. JohnIam also again reiterated the scripture in its' 'near context' to dead and alive.
Any more (imo) is 'striving about words' which has no profit.
I try to balance my reading with 'moving' the gospel out in the community. More often than not my time swings towards the 'moving' part.
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year2027
God first
Beloved allan w.
God loves you my dear friend
maybe I can help because I did a search on "in Christ"
search for in Christ English word “in Christ” and it was used 77 times in 76 verses
Acts 24:24 Rom 3:24 Rom 8:1 Rom 8:2 Rom 8:39 Rom 9:1 Rom 12:5 Rom 16:3 Rom 16:7 Rom 16:9 Rom 16:10 1 Cor 1:2 1 Cor 1:30 1 Cor 3:1 1 Cor 4:10 1 Cor 4:15 1 Cor 4:17 1 Cor 15:18
1 Cor 15:19 1 Cor 15:22 1 Cor 15:31 1 Cor 16:24 2 Cor 1:21 2 Cor 2:14 2 Cor 2:17 2 Cor 3:14 2 Cor 5:17 2 Cor 5:19 2 Cor 11:3 2 Cor 12:2 2 Cor 12:19 Gal 1:22 Gal 2:4 Gal 3:17 Gal 3:26 Gal 3:28
Gal 6:15 Eph 1:1 Eph 1:3 Eph 1:10 Eph 1:12 Eph 1:20 Eph 2:6 Eph 2:10 Eph 2:13 Eph 3:6 Eph 3:11 Phil 1:1 Phil 1:13 Phil 2:1
Phil 2:5 Phil 3:3 Phil 3:14 Phil 4:21 Col 1:2 Col 1:4 Col 1:28 Col 2:5 1 Th 2:14 1 Th 4:16 1 Th 5:18 1 Tim 1:14 1 Tim 2:7 1 Tim 3:13 2 Tim 1:1 2 Tim 1:9 2 Tim 1:13 2 Tim 2:1 2 Tim 2:10 2 Tim 3:12 2 Tim 3:15 Phile 1:6 Phile 1:8 Phile 1:23 1 Pet 3:16 1 Pet 5:14
in = G-unknown
Christ = G5547. Christos, khris-tos'; from G5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ.
All verses used the same Greek word
But the word Christ only is used 569 times in 530 verses
Mat 1:1 Mat 1:16 Mat 1:17 Mat 1:18 Mat 2:4
2 Cor 11:3 2 Cor 11:10 2 Cor 11:13 2 Cor 11:23
Eph 1:1 Eph 1:2 Eph 1:3
Rev 1:1 Rev 1:2 Rev 1:5 Rev 22:21
I hope this is enough of the many verses but it should give you a picture or you could just ask God
a little more reading to do
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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year2027
God first
Beloved allan w.
God loves you my dear friend
I guess we posted about the same time
I myself am never happy with what I understand I allways want to check and recheck learn more and more, see a biger picture of truth each day and second
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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