7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
This is why I solicited help from others here that I know know more then me about it. I see it and know it about Thessolonians and if you would consider it you might see it as well.
For some have spoken up that haven't seen it and they seem to grasp the idea. Like you I believed what you do, I know what it is to believe that way. It don't work and it don't flow with the rest of the scriptures I know of. Which I will be posting on hopefully, and perhaps can put it better and more receivable for those who have been taught to think differently for so long.
Peace
Clay, once again you presume that I have not considered the idea. You seem to think that I am a narrow- minded, TWIish literalist. You are dead wrong my friend.
Like you are doing now, I went through a somewhat zealous mystic phase quite some time ago. So I know what it is to believe your way as well. After a while I found it wanting in a few areas. In the long run strict mysticism raised more questions than answers. That is MY experience.
So in the last 8 years or so, I have gradually espoused a mystic-critical-historical hermeneutic when it come to understanding scripiture. That, and hopefully some added illumination via the Holy Spirit This works well for me and the scripture flow quite wel this way, thank you very much.
Where I see a mystic interpretation intended, I go with that. Where I see something literal - I go with that. Sometimes I see overlaps. I have changed my beliefs on a host of things over the last 25 years since I have been out of TWI.
My main goal in interpreting scripture is to get to the meaning intended by the writer to the audience that the writer was addressing. I try to remove any personal bias when I approach the scriptures (but some bias is inevetable).
What I don't do is go to the scriptures with a purely mystic bias - rejecting all things literal. Or go to the scriptures with a purely literal bias and reject all things figurative or mystic. I don't go to the scriptures with an intentional agenda. To do any of these IMO would be dishonestly handling the scriptures.
So please Clay, stop the presumptions and apparantly condescending statements addressed to those that don't see things as you do. We disagree on the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 4. Accept that. And maybe try to learn to disagree without making presumtions about folks or comming off as somehow more highly enlightnened.
suggest you try not to reduce that subject too quickly, Goey
Todd,
The fact that I did not go into a 100 page discourse concerning Chrstian mysticism and its various schools of thought does not mean that I am somehow attempting to "reduce that subject too quickly".
I didn't think a comprehensive review of mysticism was necessary considering that mysticism was not the subject of my post only a small part of it. But I think you knew that.
"many are weak and sickly among you ..and many are not spiritually healthy"?? Sorry...doesn't 'flow' with me, doesn't sit right, doesn't 'cut it', doesn't make sense.
I mean...really....we have as you've posted...them which are asleep/dead in Christ versus them which are ALIVE/ and remain. I agree with Goeys reasoning...One gets into confusion when one takes that which is literal as figurative and vice versa.
That was not a dig and mystism goes deep and continues even now. In fact it goes further then we can imagine. And points of mystism which is God working in a person have been reached by many. And there are still more things to learn and grow in even beyond what has been done in the past among the living.
I know for a fact that Todd is not digging at you but to point out that there is more then you may have looked into. I cannot point you to them at this time. You cannot handle it and it is not time.
I wasn't searching for it. It found me. And I can not deny it's reality. There is no way for me to prove it to you. There will be a time and times and times again.
What many call mystism is considered to be some sort of doctrine. It is not. It is an actual real experience and there are hundreds of documented cases of spiritual experiences called mystism and called other things as well. It the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
And I have nothing against anyone who wants to believe differently. Though I am human and my buttons get pushed sometimes just like everyone else. But I'm getting better at controled responses and listening to my heart.
And yes Goey I was searching because I knew I didn't have the answers. Or at least not seeing them.
But God had other plans and I was meek to that which He showed me from within.
Funny thing is it keeps getting bigger and brighter. And those that think it's some sort of devilishness do not know. But I have to stay grounded in Love because if I don't it will not turn out well.
What is it that John is speaking of when he talks about the anointing?
What is it that is said of the new testament and that no man need teach it to you?
Is that not in the scriptures?
Have you considered that possibly there could be something to it.
Contrary to possible believing about Todd and I, we do not speak that often and do not collabarate or plan together on any type of agenda of posting or topics here at greasespot. We do communicate but not about the content of the posts, after the posts yes we do discuss very few things. It's something that is special to me, don't know about Todd, but I think he thinks that way too. I just never asked. There is real Love that is beyond understanding just like the scriptures declare. A Love of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus supports this.
That was not a dig and mystism goes deep and continues even now. In fact it goes further then we can imagine. And points of mystism which is God working in a person have been reached by many. And there are still more things to learn and grow in even beyond what has been done in the past among the living.
I know for a fact that Todd is not digging at you but to point out that there is more then you may have looked into. I cannot point you to them at this time. You cannot handle it and it is not time.
Clay,
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I CAN OR CANNOT HANDLE ! You do not get to decide that for me. You are not my spiritual master ---- oooooh so far from it. -- What arrogance! -- What haughtiness! What ignorance!
You do not know what I have looked into, or where I have been in my spiritual journey or what I have experienced. You don't have a clue do you? Yet you have the arrogance and audacity to tell me what I can or cannot handle? How pathetically arrogant ... and spiritually immature.
I wasn't searching for it. It found me. And I can not deny it's reality. There is no way for me to prove it to you. There will be a time and times and times again.
What many call mystism is considered to be some sort of doctrine. It is not. It is an actual real experience and there are hundreds of documented cases of spiritual experiences called mystism and called other things as well. It the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
Clay, I am not the "many" . I venture to say that I probably understand more about mysticism than you do, not to blow my own horn, but to get you to realize that when you make presumptions about people in regards to their spiritual spiritual path and ability to comprehend spiritual things -- based upon one particular doctrinal discourse --- you are likely to be wrong.
Well Goey if we do discuss some deeper things it will have to be in private cause this is powerful stuff.
Your rejection of certain things that we have discussed here shows me that you are not going to understand what I'm talking about. It will be misunderstood and that is not the love of God.
I'm sorry for saying that you were not ready. Perhaps there was a better way to put it, but I can't think of another at this moment. Plus I'm at work. So pretty busy too. But not too busy for someone who is meek and searching and asking from the heart.
And that is not saying you aren't. Quit reading everything I say as something personal against you. I can't read minds, nor can anyone else.
Clay...your posts remind me a lot of Mike..but in an esoteric sense. Whilst he propounds a 'read the book and see what you've missed that I haven't' point of view, you appear to 'throw the book out and look at the ethereal possibilities that only you and Todd can see' point of view.
Either p.o.v. I think there are some 'agendas and personal motives' there.
You don't know what you are even talking about allan.
Don't waste my time with your .....
Goey and I were talking and you want to make it something it's not.
Goey is telling me his perspective and I'm telling him mine.
And it's a discussion. And you will not get me to say on an open forum what I'd say to Goey in private so that you can come up with other comments like this. That is EXACTLY why I asked for a private conversation with Goey. Cause of people that respond like you just did.
And Goey can post whatever he wants from a private conversation with me as he sees fit to.
And as i said you got something to point out, do it.
The fact that I did not go into a 100 page discourse concerning Chrstian mysticism and its various schools of thought does not mean that I am somehow attempting to "reduce that subject too quickly".
I didn't think a comprehensive review of mysticism was necessary considering that mysticism was not the subject of my post only a small part of it. But I think you knew that.
Just wanted to dig a little -eh? Go ahead......
no dig, Goey, just a suggestion...honest
cuz you seemed to reduce it as if your experience covered it
sheesh, how do these dialogues disintegrate so fast?
:blink:
i will refer to the wisdom of Barney Fife...
...and suggest that we carry our bullets in our pockets, gents
"The most beautiful and most profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead."
Come, come now Todd. "A bond that can NEVER be broken"- Clay. "It's called friendship"- Todd.
"We met on GS forum"- Todd. "We found we have common interests"- Todd.
Guys...something just smells kinda 'fishy'. Now with your post Todd in 'open forum' about your 'new age apprenticeship'..and exhorting others to try it, the 'cogs are starting to fall into place'.. now I can see WHY you and Clay have been posting your 'stuff' watch this space...
I don't consider myself as someone who has instant suspicion of people, but Clays 'grandstanding' sure reminds me of someone (apart from myself of course).
You asked me so I'll tell you what I think. I think Clay and Todd are more than 'just friends'. I think Clay and Todd are 'recruiting', be it for the 'new age'site Todd posted over on open forum or something else, but they do have an agenda..simple.
O.k. Todd...so looking at the 'New Age' website...you are now in training to become an 'anamcara' (spiritual master) You have been 'formally accepted' to be an apprentice. You will have a 'mentor'. You have Clay (who will become your apprentice, or someone elses) You and Clay are 'soulmates' on this spiritual journey.
People are 'encouraged' to download the 'flyers' and hand them out.
Bro..same ......differn't name ! My advice to you.. There is no U.F.O. orbiting around the moon scheduled to pick you up (and if you're offered something syrupy to drink...Just say NO !!
Honestly...I'm not even trying to be facetious here...but good grief man...these are the things we read about happening that end up becoming such a tragedy.
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CM
7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
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CM
Who are the the husbandman?
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CM
What is that?
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Goey
Clay, once again you presume that I have not considered the idea. You seem to think that I am a narrow- minded, TWIish literalist. You are dead wrong my friend.
Like you are doing now, I went through a somewhat zealous mystic phase quite some time ago. So I know what it is to believe your way as well. After a while I found it wanting in a few areas. In the long run strict mysticism raised more questions than answers. That is MY experience.
So in the last 8 years or so, I have gradually espoused a mystic-critical-historical hermeneutic when it come to understanding scripiture. That, and hopefully some added illumination via the Holy Spirit This works well for me and the scripture flow quite wel this way, thank you very much.
Where I see a mystic interpretation intended, I go with that. Where I see something literal - I go with that. Sometimes I see overlaps. I have changed my beliefs on a host of things over the last 25 years since I have been out of TWI.
My main goal in interpreting scripture is to get to the meaning intended by the writer to the audience that the writer was addressing. I try to remove any personal bias when I approach the scriptures (but some bias is inevetable).
What I don't do is go to the scriptures with a purely mystic bias - rejecting all things literal. Or go to the scriptures with a purely literal bias and reject all things figurative or mystic. I don't go to the scriptures with an intentional agenda. To do any of these IMO would be dishonestly handling the scriptures.
So please Clay, stop the presumptions and apparantly condescending statements addressed to those that don't see things as you do. We disagree on the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 4. Accept that. And maybe try to learn to disagree without making presumtions about folks or comming off as somehow more highly enlightnened.
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CM
Goey,
i accept your beliefs as your beliefs
never haven't
and what you call a phase is not what is happening to me
you presume also....
human nature possibly...
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sirguessalot
for the record..
there are many many kinds of mysticism
and many many different schools of thought surrounding it
and many many different voices on the subject...past and present
i suggest you try not to reduce that subject too quickly, Goey
btw...imo, when it comes to interpretation...all interpretive methods are valid and valuable
...and each has its limits...and accesses different points of leverage, if you will
peace
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Goey
Todd,
The fact that I did not go into a 100 page discourse concerning Chrstian mysticism and its various schools of thought does not mean that I am somehow attempting to "reduce that subject too quickly".
I didn't think a comprehensive review of mysticism was necessary considering that mysticism was not the subject of my post only a small part of it. But I think you knew that.
Just wanted to dig a little -eh? Go ahead......
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allan w.
"many are weak and sickly among you ..and many are not spiritually healthy"?? Sorry...doesn't 'flow' with me, doesn't sit right, doesn't 'cut it', doesn't make sense.
I mean...really....we have as you've posted...them which are asleep/dead in Christ versus them which are ALIVE/ and remain. I agree with Goeys reasoning...One gets into confusion when one takes that which is literal as figurative and vice versa.
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CM
Goey,
That was not a dig and mystism goes deep and continues even now. In fact it goes further then we can imagine. And points of mystism which is God working in a person have been reached by many. And there are still more things to learn and grow in even beyond what has been done in the past among the living.
I know for a fact that Todd is not digging at you but to point out that there is more then you may have looked into. I cannot point you to them at this time. You cannot handle it and it is not time.
I wasn't searching for it. It found me. And I can not deny it's reality. There is no way for me to prove it to you. There will be a time and times and times again.
What many call mystism is considered to be some sort of doctrine. It is not. It is an actual real experience and there are hundreds of documented cases of spiritual experiences called mystism and called other things as well. It the tip of the iceberg so to speak.
And I have nothing against anyone who wants to believe differently. Though I am human and my buttons get pushed sometimes just like everyone else. But I'm getting better at controled responses and listening to my heart.
allan,
I didn't say-
You misread my meaning. And you misquoted me.
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CM
And yes Goey I was searching because I knew I didn't have the answers. Or at least not seeing them.
But God had other plans and I was meek to that which He showed me from within.
Funny thing is it keeps getting bigger and brighter. And those that think it's some sort of devilishness do not know. But I have to stay grounded in Love because if I don't it will not turn out well.
What is it that John is speaking of when he talks about the anointing?
What is it that is said of the new testament and that no man need teach it to you?
Is that not in the scriptures?
Have you considered that possibly there could be something to it.
Contrary to possible believing about Todd and I, we do not speak that often and do not collabarate or plan together on any type of agenda of posting or topics here at greasespot. We do communicate but not about the content of the posts, after the posts yes we do discuss very few things. It's something that is special to me, don't know about Todd, but I think he thinks that way too. I just never asked. There is real Love that is beyond understanding just like the scriptures declare. A Love of God and the Lord Jesus Christ. Christ Jesus supports this.
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Goey
Clay,
YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT I CAN OR CANNOT HANDLE ! You do not get to decide that for me. You are not my spiritual master ---- oooooh so far from it. -- What arrogance! -- What haughtiness! What ignorance!
You do not know what I have looked into, or where I have been in my spiritual journey or what I have experienced. You don't have a clue do you? Yet you have the arrogance and audacity to tell me what I can or cannot handle? How pathetically arrogant ... and spiritually immature.
Clay, I am not the "many" . I venture to say that I probably understand more about mysticism than you do, not to blow my own horn, but to get you to realize that when you make presumptions about people in regards to their spiritual spiritual path and ability to comprehend spiritual things -- based upon one particular doctrinal discourse --- you are likely to be wrong.
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CM
Well Goey if we do discuss some deeper things it will have to be in private cause this is powerful stuff.
Your rejection of certain things that we have discussed here shows me that you are not going to understand what I'm talking about. It will be misunderstood and that is not the love of God.
I'm sorry for saying that you were not ready. Perhaps there was a better way to put it, but I can't think of another at this moment. Plus I'm at work. So pretty busy too. But not too busy for someone who is meek and searching and asking from the heart.
And that is not saying you aren't. Quit reading everything I say as something personal against you. I can't read minds, nor can anyone else.
We are on the same side you know....
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allan w.
Clay...your posts remind me a lot of Mike..but in an esoteric sense. Whilst he propounds a 'read the book and see what you've missed that I haven't' point of view, you appear to 'throw the book out and look at the ethereal possibilities that only you and Todd can see' point of view.
Either p.o.v. I think there are some 'agendas and personal motives' there.
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CM
Point out mine or withdraw the accusation.
And don't include Todd with me in your assumptions.
We are two different people.
You got something? Spit it out.
You think I'm in this for my own gain or what?
Come on speak, you just made an accusation against me.
BACK IT UP!!!! Or WITHDRAW THE ACCUSATION!!!!
You think you can just spit out crap and not be called on it?
POINT IT OUT!
And I HAVE NOT THROWN THE BOOK OUT!
You apparently don't read my posts!
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CM
You don't know what you are even talking about allan.
Don't waste my time with your .....
Goey and I were talking and you want to make it something it's not.
Goey is telling me his perspective and I'm telling him mine.
And it's a discussion. And you will not get me to say on an open forum what I'd say to Goey in private so that you can come up with other comments like this. That is EXACTLY why I asked for a private conversation with Goey. Cause of people that respond like you just did.
And Goey can post whatever he wants from a private conversation with me as he sees fit to.
And as i said you got something to point out, do it.
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CM
Goey-check your pm's-thanks
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sirguessalot
no dig, Goey, just a suggestion...honest
cuz you seemed to reduce it as if your experience covered it
and yeah, Clay come across the same way
for the record, here is a brief def: mysticism
sheesh, how do these dialogues disintegrate so fast?
:blink:
i will refer to the wisdom of Barney Fife...
...and suggest that we carry our bullets in our pockets, gents
---Albert Einstein Edited by sirguessalotLink to comment
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allan w.
My my...the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, gentleness etc...remember ?? CALM DOWN, CALM DOWN, calm down, calm down, callmm downnn, calllllmmmm dowwwwwwnnnnn...that's better.
Now...you DID say you and Todd 'have a bond that can NEVER be broken'...care to elaborate ??
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sirguessalot
i would...from my point of view
its called friendship, Allan
why the constant personal interrogations?
i mean, what fruit of the spirit is that?
where is the friendship in that?
what if i kept asking what your motives/agendas are for the persistant accusations as to the motives of Clay and myself?
and not just that, but why so persistant?
why hang out and repeat yourself over and over again?
(as if no one has aleady heard your belief on this)
are you aware of your behaviour, here?
do you care what others think about you?
do you care what others believe?
if not, what do you care about?
what do you care about that keeps you coming back and making accusations?
what do you care about that has you misquoting people and rewording their statements?
do you realize how hard it is to chatter in the back room of the cafe when someone does this?
do you realize how much energy is wasted trying to keep up with debunking false accusations?
and finally...do you appreciate being interrogated about your personal motives and agendas?
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Oakspear
CM, check your PM's please
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allan w.
Come, come now Todd. "A bond that can NEVER be broken"- Clay. "It's called friendship"- Todd.
"We met on GS forum"- Todd. "We found we have common interests"- Todd.
Guys...something just smells kinda 'fishy'. Now with your post Todd in 'open forum' about your 'new age apprenticeship'..and exhorting others to try it, the 'cogs are starting to fall into place'.. now I can see WHY you and Clay have been posting your 'stuff' watch this space...
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Oakspear
Do cogs actually fall into place?
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allan w.
When I'm working on something- usually !
I don't consider myself as someone who has instant suspicion of people, but Clays 'grandstanding' sure reminds me of someone (apart from myself of course).
You asked me so I'll tell you what I think. I think Clay and Todd are more than 'just friends'. I think Clay and Todd are 'recruiting', be it for the 'new age'site Todd posted over on open forum or something else, but they do have an agenda..simple.
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allan w.
O.k. Todd...so looking at the 'New Age' website...you are now in training to become an 'anamcara' (spiritual master) You have been 'formally accepted' to be an apprentice. You will have a 'mentor'. You have Clay (who will become your apprentice, or someone elses) You and Clay are 'soulmates' on this spiritual journey.
People are 'encouraged' to download the 'flyers' and hand them out.
Bro..same ......differn't name ! My advice to you.. There is no U.F.O. orbiting around the moon scheduled to pick you up (and if you're offered something syrupy to drink...Just say NO !!
Honestly...I'm not even trying to be facetious here...but good grief man...these are the things we read about happening that end up becoming such a tragedy.
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