And what about the rest of the people Goey? I guess they all go to Hell, what about them?
The coming is on an individual basis in my assessment of the scriptures. And not all at the same time. Even coming to an individual fully at the same time.
But all have their beliefs, when He comes you will know that much is certain.
What people do you refer to Clay? And why on earth would you want to condemn them to hell? -- I surely don't. -- Isn't it God's job to judge? As I understand it there will also be a resurrection of the just and the unjust at some point. But eschatology is not really my strong point. I guess I am more concerned with the here and now, yet understanding that in the long run God will be fair and just on all men.
But your comment kinda reminds me of a local Church of Christ fellow that lives near by. He sees going to hell in nearly every everthing. Like "Faith without works is dead". He thinks that implies "going to hell." Or if you are not saved then "you are going to hell". Eternal torture for those who do not accept Christianity and then only his particular brand of it.
What's up with all this going to hell nonsense in Christianity anyway? The fact that there is going to be a rapture where the beleivers are gathered to the Lord, does not imply that the rest are gonna "go to hell" Where did you get that from ?
Woah, Clay, Goey's spent a great deal of time typing out what he has seen, read, studied and put together. He han't slammed you at all, but rather shared what he sees and why. :) I respect that and he makes some very good points here and they do make sense. I can see what he's saying; can't you? Whether you believe it or not.
What you did was post a bunch of scriptures but given no basis, comment or information on those scriptures. It makes it hard to consider what you think about the topic based on that. I want to consider your observations, but by merely posting scriptures with nothing else, it's difficult to do. (Long paragraphs like that make it hard to read, too. )
Please, share what YOU think and maybe pick a few of the scriptures and how you think those contradict or say something different than the conclusion that Goey has come to and explained very well.
yeah-compare what the scripture says with what hell is or what your friend says
you just want it all in black and white-it ain't goin to happen friend
Yes, I made that statement and I offered historical and scriptural support for that statement. But don't read into it more that is there. My contention is simply that in 1 Thessalonians 4 "those that are asleep" specifically refers to the physically dead in Christ. Why obfuscate things so?
But, It's good to know that you can read my mind and see into my heart so that you know what I want and that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what will happen and what will not.
The Greeks and other pagans did not believe in a ressurection or life after death. The idea of a ressurection was pretty much limited to the Jews (except for the sect of the Sadducees). Several Greek & Roman writers and poets evidence this.
"Of a man once dead there is no resurrection." (Aeschylus Greek Playwright)
"The sun can set and rise again; but once our brief light sets, there is one unending night to be
slept
through" (Catullus, a Roman poet).
"Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope" (Theocritus, a Greek poet).
Goey,
These references were immensely fascinating - you raise a very interesting point, namely, concerning what was believed among Greek and Romans concerning the state of death. It seems I recall (I need to look this up later on, but I think I encountered this in a work by Paton as well as works dealing with mythology) that the Greeks held the view that when one died, one's "shade" (or ghost) continued in a weakened state in the underworld of Hades. Indeed it was not a very hopeful depiction of life after death.
However, I tend to think of the Romans as having been a bit more diverse in its views of afterlife than what was expressed among the writers you cited. I get the impression that the empire had become proliferated with a number of cults and movements introducing their exotic religious and spiritual ideas, such as Mithriasim, one of Christianity's main contenders at the time, which enjoyed considerable spread through the mobile Roman garrisons. The views of Christianity was one among many which immigrated into the empire. I wonder too, what form Egyptian beliefs concerning "resurrection" might have taken at the time
(and to another degree, Zoroastrianism, which did much to affect views of resurrection in Judaism).
In any event, the question of what was believed throughout the empire about death/aferlife is a very fascinating topic, and perhaps even deserving of a thread of its own for exploring further.
I forgot, but I had downloaded "The Prophecy" from thetimeline.org several months ago. I have read a good portion of it.
It seem well done as far as end times predictions go, but I have got a problem with folks delaring when Jesus will return.
The author Bill Ayles states:
I submit to you that what awaits in this
book is what the Lord God put in my mouth,
so that our generation on Earth may be informed
of its future, and that you may have
the knowledge necessary to participate in
divine prophecy.
So he is saying in effect that these are not my words, but God's words. He finally comes to the point towards the end of the book and declares:
The four winds are from the “east and west,
from north and south.” This prophetic statement
is placed in Psalm 107, for it marks
the second coming of Christ to redeem his
elect—IN CALENDAR YEAR 2007!
So, according to Bill Ayles God has revealed to him that Jesus will return next year. This is God's Word according to Ayles.
Alan, I truly hope he is correct. That would be great wouldn't it ?
But being the skeptic I am regarding self-proclaimed modern-day prophets, I suspect that 2007 will come and go and excuses will be made as to why his prophecy failed. This has happend many times before with other "prophets" whose predictions failed in the past.
Danny, I meant to thank you for the post to your Marcionite work. I plan to spend some time today reading on it. Looks like you've put a great deal of time and thought into it. I'm looking forward to diving into it and learning even more from you. :)
I would guess that the poets and other writers reflected the general attitudes of their times. Yet I would have no doubt that there were exceptions ( Aren't there always? )
However, one thing I suspect may have been very odd to the Greeks,Romans and other pagans was the idea of the ressurection of the body. It seem to be pretty unique to Judaism and Christianity.
Danny, I meant to thank you for the post to your Marcionite work. I plan to spend some time today reading on it. Looks like you've put a great deal of time and thought into it. I'm looking forward to diving into it and learning even more from you. :)
Thank you, Belle. I must emphasize that it is a draft, and it is a bit wordy and sloppy in places.
But it was interesting to notice various parallels between some things being stated by dispensationalists and what was believed among Marcionites. This might be taken in a positive or negative light, depending again, on the views of the beholder (lol).
I finally got to listen to the first part of your interview of "GS radio' last night (the computer at work is much more modern than my home computer). Very nicely done. Can't wait to hear the second part.
from "Denial of Death" by Pulitser Prise winner, Ernest Becker
For every other culture and civilization, Death was the ultimate promotion, the final ritual to elevation to a higher form of life...to the enjoyment of eternity in some form
its amazing how many teachings of the Bible are parallel to many other ancient books of living and dying
even Psalm 116 is a direct copy of a prayer to Ra in the Egyptian Book of the Dead
I would guess that the poets and other writers reflected the general attitudes of their times. Yet I would have no doubt that there were exceptions ( Aren't there always? )
However, one thing I suspect may have been very odd to the Greeks,Romans and other pagans was the idea of the ressurection of the body. It seem to be pretty unique to Judaism and Christianity.
Good point, though I wonder to what degree views might have developed since the times of Aeschylus and Theocritis (about 300-400 years B.C. though Catullus would appear the more recent, circ. 80 BC) - and of course, locale is to be considered. Thessalonika, as you mentioned earlier, indeed appears to have been heavily influenced by the Hellenist culture, and may have retained many of the attitudes concerning death here, as the tone of the writer of "Thessalonians" would seem to suggest.
The notion of some sort of life after death and resurrection was common and diverse throughout every aboriginal and temple culture of human history
i would go as far as to say that the notion of there NOT being such beliefs was the rare exception
When I review the debates in the Patristic literature concerning physical resurrection vs. "resurrection" of the spirit only, it indeed becomes very interesting to wonder to what degree "physical" resurrection had taken hold of the Roman imagination, and how long it had actually been in its conscience.
Add to the question, that even Jews and Christians were not in full agreement as to the details to "resurrection". This was a point of fierce contention among them.
Again, I wonder what form Egyptian beliefs concerning resurrection had taken at the time.
I'll have to review again E.Wallis Budges volumes on "Osirus" when I get opportunity.
[/indent]So, according to Bill Ayles God has revealed to him that Jesus will return next year. This is God's Word according to Ayles.
Alan, I truly hope he is correct. That would be great wouldn't it ?
But being the skeptic I am regarding self-proclaimed modern-day prophets, I suspect that 2007 will come and go and excuses will be made as to why his prophecy failed. This has happend many times before with other "prophets" whose predictions failed in the past.
I don't think I will sell the farm just yet.
(lol). I would sooner give more weight to the Mayan calendar prediction of 2013. But even then I wouldn't sell my farm either (if I had one).
I almost moved into a "Way home" with Bill about 20 years ago. Perhaps such is like the psychadelic (sp?) band that didn't happen, like Jimi Hendrix joining Emerson, Lake and Palmer.
i believe much of the Bible are writings from this kind of tradition
or rather, are stories about people who were teaching and living this tradition
(because the actual meat of what was taught was oral and live, and is not in the texts at all)
When I review the debates in the Patristic literature concerning physical resurrection vs. "resurrection" of the spirit only, it indeed becomes very interesting to wonder to what degree "physical" resurrection had taken hold of the Roman imagination, and how long it had actually been in its conscience.
yeah, it really seems to point to the oft-extremely diverse and cosmopolitan nature of the biblical middle eastern and mediterranean world...
...even within a single generation of a cultural or religious or spiritual movement
and how, for every text we find to study, there are a thousand that were destroyed
Have you all even read those verses and considered them in a figurative inward reality happening in the mind, heart an soul? I've said this before. Why is a spiritual event thought of as happening in the physical natural elements. And why do so many assume that it will happen all at the same time to everyone at once.
I have looked at it as happening to everyone all at once occuring in the physical natural world that we can see with our natural physical eyes. It does not make sense that way and untill I rejected the whole idea and started from scratch was when I began learning what Jesus was saying and what the others, especially John was talking about.
Everyone will experience the coming of the Lord and there will be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and the sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood. This all happens within the mind and heart and soul of a man or woman with the Lord surrounding and in you.
I have experienced this to some degree and will not expound much further because what He has started He is not done with me yet. Nor will it be believed by those who don't have the slightest idea or handle on the metaphorical. allegorical and figurative usages of theevents that occur during and within the changes that will come.
We shall all be changed does not say that it will happen all at the same time to everyone at once. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall be changed. But does it stop there? Or is there more changes in the future? The scriptures say there are changes to come even after the initial changes that occur. Else why would there be so much written about them?
---
And Thessolonians is obviously talking about sleep as being asleep to that which is to come. If it is talking of physical death then it does not make sense and it would show a God that has respect of persons. Wether it's twi or any other religion that teaches some sort of big "rapture" then it is a god that leaves others behind. That is NOT the God I love. And it is not his ways. All will have the life that Jesus bought for us. Wether it's before physical death or after it's ours and given to us as a gift. And I must refer to Todd's expounding of those scriptures in Thessolonians because he says it much better then i could. Although I see it and can't quite put it into the words that will communicate to someone who is believing that it is talking about physical death.
If you will consider those scriptures in light of asleep to the spirit you will see some things. And it's not that a person is totally dead asleep to the spirit, because it does surface at times but not recognized.
I have considered for 20 years that it meant dead. I had to undo what men had taught me and go by what the Spirit was ready to teach me. And I had to stay open minded and still have to stay open minded to grow and learn more of the limitless God that has made his home within me and within every person on the planet. So I listen for those spiritual words coming from the living people today and the scriptures continue to open up even more.
---
The only rock solid doctrine there is is Love and I will stay with that and not be moved.
---
And I'm sorry if this does not answer anyones questions but the answers are within you if you will quit trying to pry then out of the scriptures with definitions and think of just what is being communicated by them. It is not as it appears although that is where to start for some.
Yes, I've enjoyed one such older work providing a survey along the lines that you describe, entitled "Spiritism and the Cult of the Dead in Antiquity" by Paton, in addition to some of Joseph Campbell's works. I also have a Tibetan work on the topic of dying/afterlife hiding in my bedroom somewhere...and I must confess, I've been tempted to check out a spiritualist church someday. It seems folks in the 1920s-30s were quite sensitive to that sort of thing. During those years, my great grandmother, upon experiencing a heart attack at home, had an out-of-body experience and upon being "brought back" by the efforts of family members who massaged her chest, described a beautiful garden and complained quite angrily, "Why did you bring me back!?" This was long before Raymond Moody and the all the out-of-body stuff became all the rage since the 70s.
there are sooo many similarities
i believe much of the Bible are writings from this kind of tradition
or rather, are stories about people who were teaching and living this tradition
(because the actual meat of what was taught was oral and live, and is not in the texts at all)
yeah, it really seems to point to the oft-extremely diverse and cosmopolitan nature of the biblical middle eastern and mediterranean world...
...even within a single generation of a cultural or religious or spiritual movement
and how, for every text we find to study, there are a thousand that were destroyed
The greatest loss was ancient material was the destruction(s) of the Library of Alexandria. Tis a shame.
But, I agree, I also gather the impression that the Roman empire during the first century onward was flooded with a variety of spiritual views, of which the Christian movements were only one.
And goodness knows how many elements Christianity absorbed from other contemporary spiritual movements at the time, in the same way Judaism was greatly influenced in their "resurrection" ideas from contact with the Egyptians and the Persians (to name only a couple).
Goey mentioned the Sadducees earlier. They were perhaps akin to some fundamentalists today (of any number of religions), striving for the purity of their religion, and rejected the idea of "resurrection" precisely because they recognized that it had originated elesewhere, outside of what they believed to be their older form of Judaism... it's too bad we don't possess writings from their movement. Such would have filled in a many gaps...
This is why I solicited help from others here that I know know more then me about it. I see it and know it about Thessolonians and if you would consider it you might see it as well.
For some have spoken up that haven't seen it and they seem to grasp the idea. Like you I believed what you do, I know what it is to believe that way. It don't work and it don't flow with the rest of the scriptures I know of. Which I will be posting on hopefully, and perhaps can put it better and more receivable for those who have been taught to think differently for so long.
Excuse me...if it doesn't flow with the rest of the scriptures you know of, then maybe you don't know a lot of scriptures ??
I quoted 1 Corinthians 11: 30 (which I think is a 'biggie') "many are weak and sickly and many sleep".. supposedly by the same writer using the same terminology and you tried to brush it off as 'figurative' ??
"Them which are asleep" 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 "Dead in Christ shall rise first" v 16...
Same thing meant...DEAD kinda simple isn't it ?? Then it even 'flows' with 'common sense' and the practical reality of the time period between pentecost and now !!
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CM
rational explanation as in meaning what?
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Goey
What people do you refer to Clay? And why on earth would you want to condemn them to hell? -- I surely don't. -- Isn't it God's job to judge? As I understand it there will also be a resurrection of the just and the unjust at some point. But eschatology is not really my strong point. I guess I am more concerned with the here and now, yet understanding that in the long run God will be fair and just on all men.
But your comment kinda reminds me of a local Church of Christ fellow that lives near by. He sees going to hell in nearly every everthing. Like "Faith without works is dead". He thinks that implies "going to hell." Or if you are not saved then "you are going to hell". Eternal torture for those who do not accept Christianity and then only his particular brand of it.
What's up with all this going to hell nonsense in Christianity anyway? The fact that there is going to be a rapture where the beleivers are gathered to the Lord, does not imply that the rest are gonna "go to hell" Where did you get that from ?
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CM
You are the one that said-
so don't put that on my head -you brought it up
let me clue you in-everyone will see hell
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CM
yeah-compare what the scripture says with what hell is or what your friend says
you just want it all in black and white-it ain't goin to happen friend
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Belle
Woah, Clay, Goey's spent a great deal of time typing out what he has seen, read, studied and put together. He han't slammed you at all, but rather shared what he sees and why. :) I respect that and he makes some very good points here and they do make sense. I can see what he's saying; can't you? Whether you believe it or not.
What you did was post a bunch of scriptures but given no basis, comment or information on those scriptures. It makes it hard to consider what you think about the topic based on that. I want to consider your observations, but by merely posting scriptures with nothing else, it's difficult to do. (Long paragraphs like that make it hard to read, too.
)
Please, share what YOU think and maybe pick a few of the scriptures and how you think those contradict or say something different than the conclusion that Goey has come to and explained very well.
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Goey
Yes, I made that statement and I offered historical and scriptural support for that statement. But don't read into it more that is there. My contention is simply that in 1 Thessalonians 4 "those that are asleep" specifically refers to the physically dead in Christ. Why obfuscate things so?
But, It's good to know that you can read my mind and see into my heart so that you know what I want and that you know beyond a shadow of a doubt what will happen and what will not.
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TheInvisibleDan
Goey,
These references were immensely fascinating - you raise a very interesting point, namely, concerning what was believed among Greek and Romans concerning the state of death. It seems I recall (I need to look this up later on, but I think I encountered this in a work by Paton as well as works dealing with mythology) that the Greeks held the view that when one died, one's "shade" (or ghost) continued in a weakened state in the underworld of Hades. Indeed it was not a very hopeful depiction of life after death.
However, I tend to think of the Romans as having been a bit more diverse in its views of afterlife than what was expressed among the writers you cited. I get the impression that the empire had become proliferated with a number of cults and movements introducing their exotic religious and spiritual ideas, such as Mithriasim, one of Christianity's main contenders at the time, which enjoyed considerable spread through the mobile Roman garrisons. The views of Christianity was one among many which immigrated into the empire. I wonder too, what form Egyptian beliefs concerning "resurrection" might have taken at the time
(and to another degree, Zoroastrianism, which did much to affect views of resurrection in Judaism).
In any event, the question of what was believed throughout the empire about death/aferlife is a very fascinating topic, and perhaps even deserving of a thread of its own for exploring further.
Danny
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Goey
Alan,
I forgot, but I had downloaded "The Prophecy" from thetimeline.org several months ago. I have read a good portion of it.
It seem well done as far as end times predictions go, but I have got a problem with folks delaring when Jesus will return.
The author Bill Ayles states:
So he is saying in effect that these are not my words, but God's words. He finally comes to the point towards the end of the book and declares:
So, according to Bill Ayles God has revealed to him that Jesus will return next year. This is God's Word according to Ayles.
Alan, I truly hope he is correct. That would be great wouldn't it ?
But being the skeptic I am regarding self-proclaimed modern-day prophets, I suspect that 2007 will come and go and excuses will be made as to why his prophecy failed. This has happend many times before with other "prophets" whose predictions failed in the past.
I don't think I will sell the farm just yet.
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Belle
Danny, I meant to thank you for the post to your Marcionite work. I plan to spend some time today reading on it. Looks like you've put a great deal of time and thought into it. I'm looking forward to diving into it and learning even more from you. :)
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Goey
Danny,
I would guess that the poets and other writers reflected the general attitudes of their times. Yet I would have no doubt that there were exceptions ( Aren't there always? )
However, one thing I suspect may have been very odd to the Greeks,Romans and other pagans was the idea of the ressurection of the body. It seem to be pretty unique to Judaism and Christianity.
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TheInvisibleDan
Thank you, Belle. I must emphasize that it is a draft, and it is a bit wordy and sloppy in places.
But it was interesting to notice various parallels between some things being stated by dispensationalists and what was believed among Marcionites. This might be taken in a positive or negative light, depending again, on the views of the beholder (lol).
I finally got to listen to the first part of your interview of "GS radio' last night (the computer at work is much more modern than my home computer). Very nicely done. Can't wait to hear the second part.
Danny
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sirguessalot
The notion of some sort of life after death and resurrection was common and diverse throughout every aboriginal and temple culture of human history
i would go as far as to say that the notion of there NOT being such beliefs was the rare exception
and...among the monastic disciplines of just about every culture, there was a common thread...
...how the arts of meditation and contemplation was how one tasted death prior to bodily death
and how one prepared to die physically while wide awake
but if we do not know how to "die before we die"
then dying is enlightenment at gunpoint
which is what the 1 thess record seems to be pointing to
how "the coming of the lord" was considered the moment of death,
as "the arrival of the inevitable"
and so whether one was already spiritually awake at "the coming of the Lord"
or still spiritually asleep..."the Lord" still comes to all
yada yada
the past 500 years, and especially the past 2 generations, has seen a dramatic shift away from these attitudes
and our inability to deal with death is getting worse, not better
both modern science and modern religion are in deep trouble in this regard
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sirguessalot
from "Denial of Death" by Pulitser Prise winner, Ernest Becker
its amazing how many teachings of the Bible are parallel to many other ancient books of living and dying
even Psalm 116 is a direct copy of a prayer to Ra in the Egyptian Book of the Dead
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TheInvisibleDan
Good point, though I wonder to what degree views might have developed since the times of Aeschylus and Theocritis (about 300-400 years B.C. though Catullus would appear the more recent, circ. 80 BC) - and of course, locale is to be considered. Thessalonika, as you mentioned earlier, indeed appears to have been heavily influenced by the Hellenist culture, and may have retained many of the attitudes concerning death here, as the tone of the writer of "Thessalonians" would seem to suggest.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
When I review the debates in the Patristic literature concerning physical resurrection vs. "resurrection" of the spirit only, it indeed becomes very interesting to wonder to what degree "physical" resurrection had taken hold of the Roman imagination, and how long it had actually been in its conscience.
Add to the question, that even Jews and Christians were not in full agreement as to the details to "resurrection". This was a point of fierce contention among them.
Again, I wonder what form Egyptian beliefs concerning resurrection had taken at the time.
I'll have to review again E.Wallis Budges volumes on "Osirus" when I get opportunity.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
(lol). I would sooner give more weight to the Mayan calendar prediction of 2013. But even then I wouldn't sell my farm either (if I had one).
I almost moved into a "Way home" with Bill about 20 years ago. Perhaps such is like the psychadelic (sp?) band that didn't happen, like Jimi Hendrix joining Emerson, Lake and Palmer.
Danny
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sirguessalot
Danny, if you havent already, a direction you may also want to look is towards the books of living and dying from all cultures and times...
...prehistoric, egyptian, celtic, tibetan, iberian, monastic, etc...
there are sooo many similarities
i believe much of the Bible are writings from this kind of tradition
or rather, are stories about people who were teaching and living this tradition
(because the actual meat of what was taught was oral and live, and is not in the texts at all)
yeah, it really seems to point to the oft-extremely diverse and cosmopolitan nature of the biblical middle eastern and mediterranean world...
...even within a single generation of a cultural or religious or spiritual movement
and how, for every text we find to study, there are a thousand that were destroyed
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allan w.
Actually, I'll have to read it 'thoroughly'..I didn't realiise it was meant to be that soon. I thought it was sometime between 2007 AND 2018 ??!!
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CM
Goey and Belle, but mostly Goey.
Have you all even read those verses and considered them in a figurative inward reality happening in the mind, heart an soul? I've said this before. Why is a spiritual event thought of as happening in the physical natural elements. And why do so many assume that it will happen all at the same time to everyone at once.
I have looked at it as happening to everyone all at once occuring in the physical natural world that we can see with our natural physical eyes. It does not make sense that way and untill I rejected the whole idea and started from scratch was when I began learning what Jesus was saying and what the others, especially John was talking about.
Everyone will experience the coming of the Lord and there will be wars and rumors of wars and earthquakes and the sun shall be darkened and the moon turned to blood. This all happens within the mind and heart and soul of a man or woman with the Lord surrounding and in you.
I have experienced this to some degree and will not expound much further because what He has started He is not done with me yet. Nor will it be believed by those who don't have the slightest idea or handle on the metaphorical. allegorical and figurative usages of theevents that occur during and within the changes that will come.
We shall all be changed does not say that it will happen all at the same time to everyone at once. In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye we shall be changed. But does it stop there? Or is there more changes in the future? The scriptures say there are changes to come even after the initial changes that occur. Else why would there be so much written about them?
---
And Thessolonians is obviously talking about sleep as being asleep to that which is to come. If it is talking of physical death then it does not make sense and it would show a God that has respect of persons. Wether it's twi or any other religion that teaches some sort of big "rapture" then it is a god that leaves others behind. That is NOT the God I love. And it is not his ways. All will have the life that Jesus bought for us. Wether it's before physical death or after it's ours and given to us as a gift. And I must refer to Todd's expounding of those scriptures in Thessolonians because he says it much better then i could. Although I see it and can't quite put it into the words that will communicate to someone who is believing that it is talking about physical death.
If you will consider those scriptures in light of asleep to the spirit you will see some things. And it's not that a person is totally dead asleep to the spirit, because it does surface at times but not recognized.
I have considered for 20 years that it meant dead. I had to undo what men had taught me and go by what the Spirit was ready to teach me. And I had to stay open minded and still have to stay open minded to grow and learn more of the limitless God that has made his home within me and within every person on the planet. So I listen for those spiritual words coming from the living people today and the scriptures continue to open up even more.
---
The only rock solid doctrine there is is Love and I will stay with that and not be moved.
---
And I'm sorry if this does not answer anyones questions but the answers are within you if you will quit trying to pry then out of the scriptures with definitions and think of just what is being communicated by them. It is not as it appears although that is where to start for some.
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sirguessalot
yeah, this rings very true
like how we already "die" daily...when we enter deep dreamless sleep
or are put under for surgery
according to the ancients...this deep state is the same as death,
or as close to death as one can get while still alive
and so, to practice staying awake as your body and mind goes to sleep
is to experience your spiritual self without the body and mind
(though not the only way..just a basic way)
body is gone, thoughts are gone, even dreams themselves are done...
...great metaphorical insights come at times this
reminds anyone of the confrontation of the sleeping dudes right before the betrayal?
this is a classic mode of spiritual practice that dates back to at least abraham,
practiced by folks (typically guys) who were very interested in the nature of awareness itself
thank God Jesus taught them how to come back down from that cloud, as well
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TheInvisibleDan
Hi Sir Guess,
Yes, I've enjoyed one such older work providing a survey along the lines that you describe, entitled "Spiritism and the Cult of the Dead in Antiquity" by Paton, in addition to some of Joseph Campbell's works. I also have a Tibetan work on the topic of dying/afterlife hiding in my bedroom somewhere...and I must confess, I've been tempted to check out a spiritualist church someday. It seems folks in the 1920s-30s were quite sensitive to that sort of thing. During those years, my great grandmother, upon experiencing a heart attack at home, had an out-of-body experience and upon being "brought back" by the efforts of family members who massaged her chest, described a beautiful garden and complained quite angrily, "Why did you bring me back!?" This was long before Raymond Moody and the all the out-of-body stuff became all the rage since the 70s.
The greatest loss was ancient material was the destruction(s) of the Library of Alexandria. Tis a shame.
But, I agree, I also gather the impression that the Roman empire during the first century onward was flooded with a variety of spiritual views, of which the Christian movements were only one.
And goodness knows how many elements Christianity absorbed from other contemporary spiritual movements at the time, in the same way Judaism was greatly influenced in their "resurrection" ideas from contact with the Egyptians and the Persians (to name only a couple).
Goey mentioned the Sadducees earlier. They were perhaps akin to some fundamentalists today (of any number of religions), striving for the purity of their religion, and rejected the idea of "resurrection" precisely because they recognized that it had originated elesewhere, outside of what they believed to be their older form of Judaism... it's too bad we don't possess writings from their movement. Such would have filled in a many gaps...
Danny
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CM
See Goey,
This is why I solicited help from others here that I know know more then me about it. I see it and know it about Thessolonians and if you would consider it you might see it as well.
For some have spoken up that haven't seen it and they seem to grasp the idea. Like you I believed what you do, I know what it is to believe that way. It don't work and it don't flow with the rest of the scriptures I know of. Which I will be posting on hopefully, and perhaps can put it better and more receivable for those who have been taught to think differently for so long.
Peace
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allan w.
Excuse me...if it doesn't flow with the rest of the scriptures you know of, then maybe you don't know a lot of scriptures ??
I quoted 1 Corinthians 11: 30 (which I think is a 'biggie') "many are weak and sickly and many sleep".. supposedly by the same writer using the same terminology and you tried to brush it off as 'figurative' ??
"Them which are asleep" 1 Thessalonians 4: 15 "Dead in Christ shall rise first" v 16...
Same thing meant...DEAD kinda simple isn't it ?? Then it even 'flows' with 'common sense' and the practical reality of the time period between pentecost and now !!
Peace
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CM
alan,
if one is weak and sickly, then asleep to the spirit is normal cuz it is powerful and takes some health to handle
dead in Christ is not the same as asleep
could very well mean something else entirely
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