Who really understood those verses in Philipians when vp taught it?
It didn't make sense what he was saying and the way he said it should be seen.
And 1 Thessolonians 4, man this is life.
And thanks Abi and the few who do see.
I'm willing to discuss alternatives, I said that from the beginning.
But please don't waste my time or yours with twi dogma.
We all already know what that is.
Clay,
Please bear in mind that this is a way/ex-way/half-way forum.
The majority of folks are familiar with the way's teaching on the topic,
many points of which are hardly unique to the way.
So it is natural that people would compare interpretations, both past and present,
new and old, as they ought to feel free to do so.
If you do not encourage open discussion on the matter, you will "run people off".
I'm sorry to state this, but it needs to be said.
Let your interpretation stand or fall on its own merits or failings.
But I am becoming increasingly discouraged by the many statements made by many as of recent, to the effect, "If you don't like or agree with what I say, go somewhere else."
It's not cool. I hope you re-think your approach here, and encourage open discussion, no matter how much one may disagree or not like a viewpoint one hears.
I think TWI's teaching on "to die is gain" was that if Paul were to die, then his next waking moment would be at the resurrection and being face to face with Jesus. As I'm typing it, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense because all that time would be wasted in the grave instead of doing, teaching, ministering on the earth. But, it would make sense if one was to go immediately to heaven when they die.
There's a lot here to digest and I do think there's some merit to your observations, Clay and Todd. Dan and Bliss, I always enjoy your input. Dan, you are one awesome dude when it comes to the historical information that is so helpful, especially the Marcionite studies and resources that you're so familiar with. Bliss, I've had more fun learning, reading and studying since leaving TWI than I think I did the whole time I was involved. :) Of course, here, we're allowed to think out loud and to consider such an array of opinions, interpretations and topics that it's boundless whereas we were so limited and chained to TWIt approved topics and resources.
I don't like the fighting and do enjoy it when we can disagree civilly and avoid attacking one another or their beliefs, but manage to stay on the topic and keep disagreements to those areas.
It's funny, in an effort to not be narrow minded i became narrow minded.
Ha!, what a strange mind we have to mind.
So I hope Goey shows up again as well as others.
I know I put a lot on the table here and don't expect on the spot changes for anyone including myself. So this is something to take all the time needed or some may disregard it. Either way I would like to see some discussion on the matter cuz I'm subject to change also. As I said in the beginning of the thread more input is needed from more people.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ok, what is asleep and why would they be in sorrow about those who are asleep?
heerz my take...
the subject leading up to the verse seems like general reminders of a lot of different things were taught in person...the bulk of which were most likely delivered live, via oral tradition
seems like a lot about personal responsibility, discipline, love and not to stick your nose in other people's personal spiritual business
which to me, says a lot about that the high value placed on interior awareness that was such a hallmark of early christian discipline...and a shift from earlier religious forms (of conquering the infidels and human slavery and whatnot...all of which are exterior egoic grasping)
4:1-10
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
and then the verse before the one in question...
4:12
That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
its when our highest priority is inward, that we can walk honestly to those who are only outward
i think it's interesting how the word "without" means "outside" or "outward"
which to me, speaks to those who are somehow not aware or numb to their own inward condition
which is to say "full of darkness," or to simply be unaware of one's own deeper motives
due to the fixation on a solely exterior search for Christ and God and happiness and such
(which includes any and every book)
then...
4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
if we go with asleep being somehow "spiritually unconscious" or "dead/numb to the inward man"
and that the "new birth" and "coming of the lord" are other ways of saying "to wake from the dead"...
...the rest of the chapter and the book seems to be telling them to be patient and loving towards those who are "asleep," because eventually everyone is going to "wake up" some way or another on their own time, in their own season, in their own God-given cycle
its not our calling to be more concerned with making others "wake from the dead"
than we are with our own spiritual birthing process
our new calling in Christ is first and forement to go within ourselves and find the door that has always already been wide open
and this would be comforting advice to those who live in a world where unconscious behaviour and lack of self-awareness dominates and manifests into a violent and crazy world
4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
is it possible that these passages have more to do with the arrival and awakening of Christ within
than salvation from without?
it is not hard to also read it as if it is speaking of immediate future possibility for any individual
...rather than some remote future event for everyone at once
5:1-3
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
again...see the parallel between birth and spiritual awakening from the dead?
not everyone asks to be awakened to the inward man,
sometimes events in life comes out of nowhere and wake you up against your will
5:4-10
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
we are not appointed to be wrathful towards those who are asleep
we need to look within first, clean our own cups on the inside, etc...
...
now...if it seems far from what twi and most of modern christianity teaches
that's because it is
they are so radically divergent...that there is no easy bridge between the two theologies
one is mostly exterior based, trying to find something outside to get inside of us
and the other is not. it works on gestating and working out that which has already always been there
(from the beginning, as even scriptures seem to say so often)
i would hope that those who have a negative or angry or fearful reaction to this very different opinion
and think i am somehow deluded
would simply heed the scriptures in question
and please walk honestly and kindly toward me
if i am wrong, i will wake up in my own due time
what i am saying is...i am open to be questioned about my opinion
but in an honest and direct and logical and reasonable way
I see what you're saying, but the proximity of these two verses:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
and
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Seem to indicate that physical death (plainly stated in reference to Jesus) is the same as the figurative sleep.
And compare and contrast "alive" with "sleep" in this verse:
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
and this one:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Just as a side note, apparently one can be a brethren and not believe that Jesus died and rose again, since it says "if we believe". Of course if that is a correct understanding and the wording is meant that way.
Just as a side note, apparently one can be a brethren and not believe that Jesus died and rose again, since it says "if we believe". Of course if that is a correct understanding and the wording is meant that way.
I'd have to dig out my Bullinger, but I think that the literal sense of "if" is "since"
Kind of shorthand for:
If Jesus died & rose
Then those that sleep will be brought with him
Since you believe that Jesus died & rose
Then you believe that those that sleep will be brought with him
I admit that I may be misrememberin' - but I'm pretty sure that the word "if" is not allowing for a type of brethren who don't believe that Jesus died and rose again, nor is it suggesting that the sleepers being "brought with God" is dependent on us believing it.
Dan and Bliss, I always enjoy your input. Dan, you are one awesome dude when it comes to the historical information that is so helpful, especially the Marcionite studies and resources that you're so familiar with.
Belle,
Thank you so much for your kind words. Your posts are always a pleasure because you're always exploring, and I admire that. And I have been enjoying everyones' input here as well.
In view of Belle's mention of my Marcionite studies, I don't want to derail this thread with other thoughts that I have on this section. This past winter, I drafted a "Marcionite commentary" on 1 Thessalonians, an attempt on how a Marcionite might have interpreted this material in view of their belief in "two Christs" or "two messiahs", one being the unforetold "messiah" of a new God, to bring universal salvation to mankind, while the other being the "messiah" prophesied through the Old Testament demiurge, to bring wrath. It is my initial proposal that 1 Thess. ch.4 refers to the coming of the "Christ" of the new Benevolent God, who comes to rescue people "from the wrath to come", whereas the material in ch.5 may refer to the coming of the OT deity's "Christ", who comes to administer "wrath".
In any event, it's a very wordy and dry study, but it contains a number of references to the observations of dispensationalists (some which will be familiar to readers here), who most interestingly, have arrived to positions not far removed from Marcion's.
And all the more extraordinary, without knowing(or mentioning) the figure of Marcion at all.
Though it doesn't specifically cover the topic of "sleep", Clay, I do think there may also be something to your interpretation, as it is something which I had also briefly considered awhile back. Considering the "gnostic" interpretation of "sleep"(as in ref. to Hans Jonas' work earlier)scripture can present the possibility of double-meanings. But back then- as does today - it all depends on the eyes and hearts of the various beholders.
it all depends on the eyes and hearts of the various beholders
Actually I believe that to be the case with the entire Word of God from an honest and honourable heart. In other words one's understanding of a section will be just where God wants it to be at a particular time in one's life. And as it grows the understanding changes. And we change.
And Oaks, Yeah I've heard that about another section of scripture too. The "if" being "since" But that was something I just bought without checking out or Did I check it out. Can't remember.
The word in Greek was translated literally correctly as "if", but it's somewhat like this example:
You and I are having a beer together, I remember that I have to be in work early the next morning and announce that I have to go. You say, "If you are leaving, then I'll head home too" - there is no question about whether I'm leaving or not, I just said that I am - there may have been a choice a few moments before, but that's past, "if" is used in the sense of "since".
There's a term for this, but I don't remember what it is.
Hope I'm not being too pedantic here. <_<
(I used to have a branch coordinator who would get all worked up if I used "if" in this manner. I'd say something like, "I'll do it if that's what you want" and he'd bellow that there was no "if" about it - that was the way he wanted it - what an idiot :wacko: )
Well, this is a little deeper then i wanted to go, but I'm the one that brought in the "if" part..lol.
Do you think that that someone could have a genuine spiritual birth or birthing or awakening without knowing Jesus?
History has proven that many have in various countries where they never even heard of Jesus. And besides that. In the old testament there were spiritual awakenings. I mean just look at all the prophets that we can see besides the ones we don't know about.
Take Paul for instance. He called whoever knocked him off his horse Lord before he even knew who it was. Now I know this can be taken and said to mean different things. But Paul said "who art thou Lord" Confessing Jesus as Lord before he even knew who it was.
Any ways back to the subject at hand.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which are dead in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are dead. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I resupplied the word "sleep" with dead-meaning physical death.
Now if that is done with chapter 5 then a real mess appears.
To take sleep as meaning dead in the grave would mean that the dead are dead-in the grave-which I don't buy anymore.
Now if this is about graveyard dead then does this include all people who have lived and died?
1 Thessalonians was written by Paul to the church at Thessalonica from Corinth from between 51-53 AD. Thessalonica was a rather large Greek city rich in trade and culture. It was populated by people of diverse ethnic groups. Being a Greek city founded about 315 BC and named after Alexander the Great's sister , it was steeped in Greek culture that also permeated the non-Greeks there including the Jews who were Hellenized to some extent or another.
The Greeks and other pagans did not believe in a ressurection or life after death. The idea of a ressurection was pretty much limited to the Jews (except for the sect of the Sadducees). Several Greek & Roman writers and poets evidence this.
"Of a man once dead there is no resurrection." (Aeschylus Greek Playwright)
"The sun can set and rise again; but once our brief light sets, there is one unending night to be
slept
through" (Catullus, a Roman poet).
"Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope" (Theocritus, a Greek poet).
Also, sexual purity was not considered a virtue on Greek and Roman culture. Demosthenes wrote:
"We keep prostitutes for pleasure; we keep mistresses for the day to day needs of the body; we keep wives for the faithful guardianship of our homes." (Demosthenes)
Sometime between about 50 & 52 AD Paul visited Thessalonica and stayed there for at about three weeks (maybe a bit longer) , where he preached Jesus as the Messiah, and Jesus death and resurrection. Some Jews and a great many "devout Greeks" believed.(Acts 17:1-4) A Christian "church" emerged there as a result. These devout Greeks were those that worshipped God at the synagogue and had rejected paganism. However, due to the jealousy of the Jews, Paul was ran out of Thessalonica in short order.
Some Jews accepted Paul's gospel as well as many "devout Greeks", whose background was in paganism. It was about a year or so later that Paul writes his first letter to the Thessalonians.
This the partial background leading up to Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.
1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James)
1 Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God;
2 for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
3 For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality;
4 that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor,
5 not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God;
6 that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified.
7 For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness.
8 Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given[a] us His Holy Spirit.
The Church at Thessalonica was made up primarily of converted Gentiles. Paul exhorts them to sexual morality, which was basically unknown to the majority of Gentiles ( like the Gentiles "who do not know God" in verse 5 ).
9 But concerning brotherly love you have no need that I should write to you, for you yourselves are taught by God to love one another;
10 and indeed you do so toward all the brethren who are in all Macedonia. But we urge you, brethren, that you increase more and more;
11 that you also aspire to lead a quiet life, to mind your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you, 12 that you may walk properly toward those who are outside, and that you may lack nothing.
Paul commends them on their brotherly love and encourages them to grow even more in it. They are exhorted to mind their own business, working with their hands ( as Paul had given example) "that" (for the purpose) they would walk properly towards those that are outside ( The AV reads "without" instead of without ). This is referring to physical work (with your own hands). "Those that are outside" - refers to those not within the congregation. Verse 11 and 12 are joined together with "that" the Greek "hina" meaning "so that" or "in order that" in a demonstrative sense.
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
"But" in verse 13 is the Greek "de" not "alla". De can be used in many different ways. In this case it serves to introduce a new train of thought. I could be just as well translated ... Now, or Now then ... The NLT renders it "and now". The Amplified uses "now also". The AV also uses "moreover" A good example is 1 Cor 16:1 where "de" (now) begins a new train of thought. My point here being that "but" in verse 13 does not contrast it with verse 12.
"Those who have fallen asleep" is generally accepted to be a euphemism for those Christians that have died. I think this was the meaning intended by Paul. The Gentiles as in Catullus' example commonly referred to death as an eternal sleep. The OT uses sleep in reference to physical death (Deut 31:16, 2 Sam 7:12, Psa 13 Daniel 12:2) -- In the NT, Jesus uses sleep in regards to physical death (John 11:11-13). Acts 7:60 uses sleep in regards to Stephen's physical death.
Death as we know , is not the only biblical usage of sleep. It is also used literally. It is also used to refer to spiritual slumber. However, different Greek words are used for sleep. In 4:13 the word for sleep is koimao, and in Chapter 5 verse 6 the word is katheudo. It may be a mistake to try and force the same meaning upon these words in all cases. Why would Paul use two different words for "sleep" in Chapters 4 & 5?
"Those that have no hope" are those that do not believe in the resurrection as is well shown by the Greek (pagan )poet Theocritus who writes: "Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope". If someone does not believe in the existence of an afterlife then they have no hope for an afterlife. Upon the loss of a love one, this loss would then be seen as permanent. However, those that believe in Christ - his death and resurrection - do have hope for themselves and their loved ones in the event of physical death. Christians who understand the resurrection (not ignorant) should not sorrow for their dead love one as others that have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
Jesus was the "firstfruits".
1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of
them that slept.
The death and resurrection of Jesus is our great example of hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose, so also we believe God will raise the faithful dead in Jesus at his coming.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
Those that are alive at Jesus return will not have precedence or advantage over the faithful that have died.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
Jesus' return will be unmistakable. He will descend with a shout of authority - with the trump of an archangel. Trumpets were used in the OT as a call to gather God's people. The trump sound the call for this magnificent gathering of God's people. The dead will rise first and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then those that are alive will be changed and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then together they will be taken up to be with the Lord - always
18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
Considering the background of the Thessalonians, The Greek culture and beliefs, and the usage of "sleep" throughout the bible in regards to physical death, it is clear that "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to physical death of the faithful that had died.
Paul wrote portions of chapter 4 and 5 so that Christians would not be ignorant about the faithful that had died -- not to sorrow in the same manner as others that have no hope but riather that they should have hope and comfort.
it is clear that "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to physical death of the faithful that had died.
Not to me it isn't, neither does the "coming" line up with the rest of what Jesus said and others wrote about it. The most unread book of the bible "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
And this is Paul and his companions assessment on those believers in Thessolonica
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
it is clear that "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to physical death of the faithful that had died
And what about the rest of the people Goey? I guess they all go to Hell, what about them?
The coming is on an individual basis in my assessment of the scriptures. And not all at the same time. Even coming to an individual fully at the same time.
But all have their beliefs, when He comes you will know that much is certain.
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah 2:11-13 (in Context) Isaiah 2 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:5-7 (in Context) Isaiah 13 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:8-10 (in Context) Isaiah 13 (Whole Chapter)
Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Jeremiah 46:9-11 (in Context) Jeremiah 46 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 13:4-6 (in Context) Ezekiel 13 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Ezekiel 30:2-4 (in Context) Ezekiel 30 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 1:14-16 (in Context) Joel 1 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:1-3 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 2:10-12 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:30-32 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joel 3:13-15 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter)
Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:17-19 (in Context) Amos 5 (Whole Chapter)
Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Amos 5:19-21 (in Context) Amos 5 (Whole Chapter)
Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Obadiah 1:14-16 (in Context) Obadiah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zephaniah 1:6-8 (in Context) Zephaniah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:13-15 (in Context) Zephaniah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:1-3 (in Context) Zechariah 14 (Whole Chapter)
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Malachi 4:4-6 (in Context) Malachi 4 (Whole Chapter)
Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Acts 2:19-21 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:4-6 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2 Corinthians 1:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:9-11 (in Context) 2 Peter 3 (Whole Chapter)
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CM
btw-thanks for sticking around bliss :)
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TheInvisibleDan
Clay,
Please bear in mind that this is a way/ex-way/half-way forum.
The majority of folks are familiar with the way's teaching on the topic,
many points of which are hardly unique to the way.
So it is natural that people would compare interpretations, both past and present,
new and old, as they ought to feel free to do so.
If you do not encourage open discussion on the matter, you will "run people off".
I'm sorry to state this, but it needs to be said.
Let your interpretation stand or fall on its own merits or failings.
But I am becoming increasingly discouraged by the many statements made by many as of recent, to the effect, "If you don't like or agree with what I say, go somewhere else."
It's not cool. I hope you re-think your approach here, and encourage open discussion, no matter how much one may disagree or not like a viewpoint one hears.
Danny
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CM
Thanks Danny, I do appreciate your post.
And will be more flexible.
Your words didn't fall on ears that can't hear.
So I do get your point.
So lets bring on twi's interpretation and compare it with what the scriptures say. I just changed my mind. :)
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TheInvisibleDan
Thanks Clay. You're a good man.
Danny
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Belle
I'm lurking. :ph34r:
I think TWI's teaching on "to die is gain" was that if Paul were to die, then his next waking moment would be at the resurrection and being face to face with Jesus. As I'm typing it, I'm thinking it doesn't make sense because all that time would be wasted in the grave instead of doing, teaching, ministering on the earth. But, it would make sense if one was to go immediately to heaven when they die.
There's a lot here to digest and I do think there's some merit to your observations, Clay and Todd. Dan and Bliss, I always enjoy your input. Dan, you are one awesome dude when it comes to the historical information that is so helpful, especially the Marcionite studies and resources that you're so familiar with. Bliss, I've had more fun learning, reading and studying since leaving TWI than I think I did the whole time I was involved. :) Of course, here, we're allowed to think out loud and to consider such an array of opinions, interpretations and topics that it's boundless whereas we were so limited and chained to TWIt approved topics and resources.
I don't like the fighting and do enjoy it when we can disagree civilly and avoid attacking one another or their beliefs, but manage to stay on the topic and keep disagreements to those areas.
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CM
Thanks Danny,
It's funny, in an effort to not be narrow minded i became narrow minded.
Ha!, what a strange mind we have to mind.
So I hope Goey shows up again as well as others.
I know I put a lot on the table here and don't expect on the spot changes for anyone including myself. So this is something to take all the time needed or some may disregard it. Either way I would like to see some discussion on the matter cuz I'm subject to change also. As I said in the beginning of the thread more input is needed from more people.
Thanks for lurking Belle! :)
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sirguessalot
well, i gratefully accept...and i dont even care which half...hehe
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CM
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
Ok, what is asleep and why would they be in sorrow about those who are asleep?
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sirguessalot
heerz my take...
the subject leading up to the verse seems like general reminders of a lot of different things were taught in person...the bulk of which were most likely delivered live, via oral tradition
seems like a lot about personal responsibility, discipline, love and not to stick your nose in other people's personal spiritual business
which to me, says a lot about that the high value placed on interior awareness that was such a hallmark of early christian discipline...and a shift from earlier religious forms (of conquering the infidels and human slavery and whatnot...all of which are exterior egoic grasping)
4:1-10
Furthermore then we beseech you, brethren, and exhort you by the Lord Jesus, that as ye have received of us how ye ought to walk and to please God, so ye would abound more and more.
For ye know what commandments we gave you by the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.
He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.
And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
and then the verse before the one in question...
4:12
That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
its when our highest priority is inward, that we can walk honestly to those who are only outward
i think it's interesting how the word "without" means "outside" or "outward"
which to me, speaks to those who are somehow not aware or numb to their own inward condition
which is to say "full of darkness," or to simply be unaware of one's own deeper motives
due to the fixation on a solely exterior search for Christ and God and happiness and such
(which includes any and every book)
then...
4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
if we go with asleep being somehow "spiritually unconscious" or "dead/numb to the inward man"
and that the "new birth" and "coming of the lord" are other ways of saying "to wake from the dead"...
...the rest of the chapter and the book seems to be telling them to be patient and loving towards those who are "asleep," because eventually everyone is going to "wake up" some way or another on their own time, in their own season, in their own God-given cycle
its not our calling to be more concerned with making others "wake from the dead"
than we are with our own spiritual birthing process
our new calling in Christ is first and forement to go within ourselves and find the door that has always already been wide open
and this would be comforting advice to those who live in a world where unconscious behaviour and lack of self-awareness dominates and manifests into a violent and crazy world
4:14-18
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
is it possible that these passages have more to do with the arrival and awakening of Christ within
than salvation from without?
it is not hard to also read it as if it is speaking of immediate future possibility for any individual
...rather than some remote future event for everyone at once
5:1-3
But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
again...see the parallel between birth and spiritual awakening from the dead?
not everyone asks to be awakened to the inward man,
sometimes events in life comes out of nowhere and wake you up against your will
5:4-10
But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
we are not appointed to be wrathful towards those who are asleep
we need to look within first, clean our own cups on the inside, etc...
...
now...if it seems far from what twi and most of modern christianity teaches
that's because it is
they are so radically divergent...that there is no easy bridge between the two theologies
one is mostly exterior based, trying to find something outside to get inside of us
and the other is not. it works on gestating and working out that which has already always been there
(from the beginning, as even scriptures seem to say so often)
i would hope that those who have a negative or angry or fearful reaction to this very different opinion
and think i am somehow deluded
would simply heed the scriptures in question
and please walk honestly and kindly toward me
if i am wrong, i will wake up in my own due time
what i am saying is...i am open to be questioned about my opinion
but in an honest and direct and logical and reasonable way
in the spirit of peace
yada yada yada
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CM
very well put indeed...
i especially see the importance of my own sight rather then others
which seems to be the overall balance to all that is written in the epistles
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Oakspear
I see what you're saying, but the proximity of these two verses:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
and
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
Seem to indicate that physical death (plainly stated in reference to Jesus) is the same as the figurative sleep.
And compare and contrast "alive" with "sleep" in this verse:
that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
and this one:
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
maybe it can mean both.
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CM
Just as a side note, apparently one can be a brethren and not believe that Jesus died and rose again, since it says "if we believe". Of course if that is a correct understanding and the wording is meant that way.
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Oakspear
Kind of shorthand for:
If Jesus died & rose
Then those that sleep will be brought with him
Since you believe that Jesus died & rose
Then you believe that those that sleep will be brought with him
I admit that I may be misrememberin' - but I'm pretty sure that the word "if" is not allowing for a type of brethren who don't believe that Jesus died and rose again, nor is it suggesting that the sleepers being "brought with God" is dependent on us believing it.
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TheInvisibleDan
Belle,
Thank you so much for your kind words. Your posts are always a pleasure because you're always exploring, and I admire that. And I have been enjoying everyones' input here as well.
In view of Belle's mention of my Marcionite studies, I don't want to derail this thread with other thoughts that I have on this section. This past winter, I drafted a "Marcionite commentary" on 1 Thessalonians, an attempt on how a Marcionite might have interpreted this material in view of their belief in "two Christs" or "two messiahs", one being the unforetold "messiah" of a new God, to bring universal salvation to mankind, while the other being the "messiah" prophesied through the Old Testament demiurge, to bring wrath. It is my initial proposal that 1 Thess. ch.4 refers to the coming of the "Christ" of the new Benevolent God, who comes to rescue people "from the wrath to come", whereas the material in ch.5 may refer to the coming of the OT deity's "Christ", who comes to administer "wrath".
In any event, it's a very wordy and dry study, but it contains a number of references to the observations of dispensationalists (some which will be familiar to readers here), who most interestingly, have arrived to positions not far removed from Marcion's.
And all the more extraordinary, without knowing(or mentioning) the figure of Marcion at all.
http://marcionofsinope.netfirms.com/1Thess2lords.htm
Though it doesn't specifically cover the topic of "sleep", Clay, I do think there may also be something to your interpretation, as it is something which I had also briefly considered awhile back. Considering the "gnostic" interpretation of "sleep"(as in ref. to Hans Jonas' work earlier)scripture can present the possibility of double-meanings. But back then- as does today - it all depends on the eyes and hearts of the various beholders.
Danny
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CM
Hi Danny,
Actually I believe that to be the case with the entire Word of God from an honest and honourable heart. In other words one's understanding of a section will be just where God wants it to be at a particular time in one's life. And as it grows the understanding changes. And we change.
And Oaks, Yeah I've heard that about another section of scripture too. The "if" being "since" But that was something I just bought without checking out or Did I check it out. Can't remember.
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Oakspear
The word in Greek was translated literally correctly as "if", but it's somewhat like this example:
You and I are having a beer together, I remember that I have to be in work early the next morning and announce that I have to go. You say, "If you are leaving, then I'll head home too" - there is no question about whether I'm leaving or not, I just said that I am - there may have been a choice a few moments before, but that's past, "if" is used in the sense of "since".
There's a term for this, but I don't remember what it is.
Hope I'm not being too pedantic here. <_<
(I used to have a branch coordinator who would get all worked up if I used "if" in this manner. I'd say something like, "I'll do it if that's what you want" and he'd bellow that there was no "if" about it - that was the way he wanted it - what an idiot :wacko: )
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CM
Well, this is a little deeper then i wanted to go, but I'm the one that brought in the "if" part..lol.
Do you think that that someone could have a genuine spiritual birth or birthing or awakening without knowing Jesus?
History has proven that many have in various countries where they never even heard of Jesus. And besides that. In the old testament there were spiritual awakenings. I mean just look at all the prophets that we can see besides the ones we don't know about.
Take Paul for instance. He called whoever knocked him off his horse Lord before he even knew who it was. Now I know this can be taken and said to mean different things. But Paul said "who art thou Lord" Confessing Jesus as Lord before he even knew who it was.
Any ways back to the subject at hand.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are dead, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which are dead in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are dead. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I resupplied the word "sleep" with dead-meaning physical death.
Now if that is done with chapter 5 then a real mess appears.
To take sleep as meaning dead in the grave would mean that the dead are dead-in the grave-which I don't buy anymore.
Now if this is about graveyard dead then does this include all people who have lived and died?
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Goey
1 Thessalonians was written by Paul to the church at Thessalonica from Corinth from between 51-53 AD. Thessalonica was a rather large Greek city rich in trade and culture. It was populated by people of diverse ethnic groups. Being a Greek city founded about 315 BC and named after Alexander the Great's sister , it was steeped in Greek culture that also permeated the non-Greeks there including the Jews who were Hellenized to some extent or another.
The Greeks and other pagans did not believe in a ressurection or life after death. The idea of a ressurection was pretty much limited to the Jews (except for the sect of the Sadducees). Several Greek & Roman writers and poets evidence this.
Also, sexual purity was not considered a virtue on Greek and Roman culture. Demosthenes wrote:
Sometime between about 50 & 52 AD Paul visited Thessalonica and stayed there for at about three weeks (maybe a bit longer) , where he preached Jesus as the Messiah, and Jesus death and resurrection. Some Jews and a great many "devout Greeks" believed.(Acts 17:1-4) A Christian "church" emerged there as a result. These devout Greeks were those that worshipped God at the synagogue and had rejected paganism. However, due to the jealousy of the Jews, Paul was ran out of Thessalonica in short order.
Some Jews accepted Paul's gospel as well as many "devout Greeks", whose background was in paganism. It was about a year or so later that Paul writes his first letter to the Thessalonians.
This the partial background leading up to Paul's letter to the Thessalonians.
1 Thessalonians 4 (New King James)
The Church at Thessalonica was made up primarily of converted Gentiles. Paul exhorts them to sexual morality, which was basically unknown to the majority of Gentiles ( like the Gentiles "who do not know God" in verse 5 ).
Paul commends them on their brotherly love and encourages them to grow even more in it. They are exhorted to mind their own business, working with their hands ( as Paul had given example) "that" (for the purpose) they would walk properly towards those that are outside ( The AV reads "without" instead of without ). This is referring to physical work (with your own hands). "Those that are outside" - refers to those not within the congregation. Verse 11 and 12 are joined together with "that" the Greek "hina" meaning "so that" or "in order that" in a demonstrative sense.
"But" in verse 13 is the Greek "de" not "alla". De can be used in many different ways. In this case it serves to introduce a new train of thought. I could be just as well translated ... Now, or Now then ... The NLT renders it "and now". The Amplified uses "now also". The AV also uses "moreover" A good example is 1 Cor 16:1 where "de" (now) begins a new train of thought. My point here being that "but" in verse 13 does not contrast it with verse 12.
"Those who have fallen asleep" is generally accepted to be a euphemism for those Christians that have died. I think this was the meaning intended by Paul. The Gentiles as in Catullus' example commonly referred to death as an eternal sleep. The OT uses sleep in reference to physical death (Deut 31:16, 2 Sam 7:12, Psa 13 Daniel 12:2) -- In the NT, Jesus uses sleep in regards to physical death (John 11:11-13). Acts 7:60 uses sleep in regards to Stephen's physical death.
Death as we know , is not the only biblical usage of sleep. It is also used literally. It is also used to refer to spiritual slumber. However, different Greek words are used for sleep. In 4:13 the word for sleep is koimao, and in Chapter 5 verse 6 the word is katheudo. It may be a mistake to try and force the same meaning upon these words in all cases. Why would Paul use two different words for "sleep" in Chapters 4 & 5?
"Those that have no hope" are those that do not believe in the resurrection as is well shown by the Greek (pagan )poet Theocritus who writes: "Hopes are for the living; the dead are without hope". If someone does not believe in the existence of an afterlife then they have no hope for an afterlife. Upon the loss of a love one, this loss would then be seen as permanent. However, those that believe in Christ - his death and resurrection - do have hope for themselves and their loved ones in the event of physical death. Christians who understand the resurrection (not ignorant) should not sorrow for their dead love one as others that have no hope.
Jesus was the "firstfruits".
The death and resurrection of Jesus is our great example of hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose, so also we believe God will raise the faithful dead in Jesus at his coming.
Those that are alive at Jesus return will not have precedence or advantage over the faithful that have died.
Jesus' return will be unmistakable. He will descend with a shout of authority - with the trump of an archangel. Trumpets were used in the OT as a call to gather God's people. The trump sound the call for this magnificent gathering of God's people. The dead will rise first and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then those that are alive will be changed and receive their new spiritual bodies. Then together they will be taken up to be with the Lord - always
Considering the background of the Thessalonians, The Greek culture and beliefs, and the usage of "sleep" throughout the bible in regards to physical death, it is clear that "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians refers to physical death of the faithful that had died.
Paul wrote portions of chapter 4 and 5 so that Christians would not be ignorant about the faithful that had died -- not to sorrow in the same manner as others that have no hope but riather that they should have hope and comfort.
That's my take on it.
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allan w.
Goey...just wondering if you had looked at www.thetimeline.org ??
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CM
Not to me it isn't, neither does the "coming" line up with the rest of what Jesus said and others wrote about it. The most unread book of the bible "The Revelation of Jesus Christ"
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8All these are the beginning of sorrows. 9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. 15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25Behold, I have told you before. 26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together. 29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. 35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. 37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. 43But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. 44Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. 45Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? 46Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 47Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; 49And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; 50The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, 51And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
5And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: 6For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 7And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. 8For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. 9But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them. 10And the gospel must first be published among all nations. 11But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. 12Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. 13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains: 15And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: 16And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. 17But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter. 19For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 20And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect’s sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days. 21And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: 22For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. 23But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
28Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: 29So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. 30Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. 31Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 32But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 33Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. 34For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. 35Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 36Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. 37And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
8And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them. 9But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by. 10Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: 11And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven. 12But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name’s sake. 13And it shall turn to you for a testimony. 14Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: 15For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. 16And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death. 17And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake. 18But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19In your patience possess ye your souls.
20And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. 22For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. 24And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled. 25And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; 30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. 31So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. 32Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. 33Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
And this is Paul and his companions assessment on those believers in Thessolonica
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
2We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
1Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: 2Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. 3We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth; 4So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer: 6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you; 7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power: 12That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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CM
And what about the rest of the people Goey? I guess they all go to Hell, what about them?
The coming is on an individual basis in my assessment of the scriptures. And not all at the same time. Even coming to an individual fully at the same time.
But all have their beliefs, when He comes you will know that much is certain.
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CM
Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
Isaiah 2:11-13 (in Context) Isaiah 2 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
Isaiah 13:5-7 (in Context) Isaiah 13 (Whole Chapter)
Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
Isaiah 13:8-10 (in Context) Isaiah 13 (Whole Chapter)
Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.
Jeremiah 46:9-11 (in Context) Jeremiah 46 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.
Ezekiel 13:4-6 (in Context) Ezekiel 13 (Whole Chapter)
Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
Ezekiel 30:2-4 (in Context) Ezekiel 30 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.
Joel 1:14-16 (in Context) Joel 1 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;
Joel 2:1-3 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?
Joel 2:10-12 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.
Joel 2:30-32 (in Context) Joel 2 (Whole Chapter)
Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
Joel 3:13-15 (in Context) Joel 3 (Whole Chapter)
Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.
Amos 5:17-19 (in Context) Amos 5 (Whole Chapter)
Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?
Amos 5:19-21 (in Context) Amos 5 (Whole Chapter)
Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.
Obadiah 1:14-16 (in Context) Obadiah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.
Zephaniah 1:6-8 (in Context) Zephaniah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.
Zephaniah 1:13-15 (in Context) Zephaniah 1 (Whole Chapter)
Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zechariah 14:1-3 (in Context) Zechariah 14 (Whole Chapter)
Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Malachi 4:4-6 (in Context) Malachi 4 (Whole Chapter)
Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
Acts 2:19-21 (in Context) Acts 2 (Whole Chapter)
1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
1 Corinthians 5:4-6 (in Context) 1 Corinthians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.
2 Corinthians 1:13-15 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 1 (Whole Chapter)
1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-3 (in Context) 1 Thessalonians 5 (Whole Chapter)
2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:9-11 (in Context) 2 Peter 3 (Whole Chapter)
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CM
I actually believe physical death has no bearing or weight or matter on the word sleep or asleep in Thessolonians.
I also believe physical death has little or no bearing or weight concerning the coming of the Lord.
It is a process laid out in giant murals of truth laid out in Revelations.
It is a process because no one can handle it all at once.
Being born again is just that -Being born again.
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Goey
No, I haven't ... but maybe I will check it out.
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