Ooookay...throw out an idea that sounds interesting, but no one demonstrates any basis for the idea, but it is suggested that "those who are ready" will see it.
This is a discussion forum, and in that discussion you were asked by WordWolf "do you have some compelling evidence arguing for the figurative/spiritualized interpretation of these verses?...Other than CM's say-so, what "argument" do you offer for a change of position?" - and you have offered nothing other than some mumbo-jumbo about those who "are ready" seeing it.
which is quite different then what you are now saying
Why did I post here? Because I thought the idea was intriguing, but wasn't seing any reason, compelling or otherwise, to go with any interpretation for "sleep" other than physical death.
I find the approach that one needs some kind of special "inner" understanding to get something condescending. If you have a position that differs from the so-called accepted or mainstream thinking, present the basis, expound on the logic, geez, say something convincing.
On the other hand, if you don't agree with my opinion regarding how discussions should be carried out, feel free to ignore me, I don't get to set the guidelines of how everyone else has to behave, however, I do get to express my opinion. And I will probably still express it sarcastically from time to time.
And for the record I did-
present the basis, expound on the logic, geez, say something convincing.
That's why I question the fact that you didn't even read it or consider it. And why would you feel condescended to? That really is perplexing to me. Is it that you have had a bad experience with looking inwardly where God has and is claiming to be working? And there is nothing "special" about inner understanding. Where else would anything be understood?
So anyways your initial post ....ed me off cause you didn't address the subject. I did quite a bit.
second, Allen, I love ya, so please do a word search on "boasting". Your boasting should be in the LORD only, and not of yourself. Those examples may be a great testimony, but should give GLORY TO GOD, and not yourself or your methodology.
Next, I'd love these threads to be "free" thinking to all possibilities, and not just are preconceived doctrine tell us. It is all about perception. so I love reading others "view", so that God can show me what I need to know.
John 14:26
.............."the holy ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring you to remembrance..............."
let us not forget this..............in TWI we didnt' even know this verse exsisted. (me anyway)
Just for the record gents, I have no problem accepting that you or anyone else can "know" or experience something that is beyond mundane understanding: "inner" enlightenment, so to speak. I do have a problem when that "inner" understanding is presented as the last word, since there is absolutely no way that it can be analyzed, critiqued (sp?), or possibly even rationally discussed.
That's why I question the fact that you didn't even read it or consider it
I re-read it this morning. You presented an interesting proposition. It then appears that you apply your alternative interpretation to a number of verses and sections without really giving a reason why this alternative interpretation is valid.
And why would you feel condescended to? That really is perplexing to me
Any time someone claims "special knowledge" that only some can know or understand, it appears to be the assumption of an elitist position. In my opinion, that's condescending.
Is it that you have had a bad experience with looking inwardly where God has and is claiming to be working?
curious...does it bother you because someone else says that their inner awareness has changed in some intense way that has effected their relationship to scripture?
and you don't think yours has?
Actually no, but thanks for playing.
Well, I've got to go to work and otherwise live life. Enjoy yourselves, and try not to beat up on Allan too bad.
along the lines of actual practical ways of "waking from death"
to address the demands for actual believable evidence
can you imagine spending 9 whole days doing nothing but sitting, fasting and praying?
or 40 whole days in nature fasting and praying?
and by praying, i mean a specific and very focused mental routine involving holding awarenes of one's body, soul, mind, heart, spirit...everything
try it, and see if you do not experience a profound and unmistakable inward death
and as you try it, try and control your breath according to some ancient jewish art form, and try and stay awake and examine all the various altered states of consciousness you go through each day...stay awake throughout the variety of dream states and dreamless states, and take good notes to share with your fellowship of disciples
not to sound harsh...but honestly, go off in the woods by yourself for a month
or in the upper rooms of a temple
and sit for 9 days straight
heck, lock yourself in your house for a week
and practice escaping your very mind
and opening your very heart
and tell me what happens inside of you
tell me what change take place in the actual substance of your thoughts, dreams, and bodily feelings
holy cow...talk about actual demonstration of the revelation of inward man...
and as harsh as it may sound...if you dont somehow learn how to do these kinds of things, you cannot see the nature of what the writers of scripture saw
(except in cases where one is konked over the head with a shovel, for example, or experiences other severe trauma...such as being in a coma, near death, serious illnes, a severe heroin withdrawal, etc... even though these are not stable practices...they touch the same interior and exterior places)
in actual living practical terms...what i think most christians tend to completely miss regarding the new testament scriptual accounts of "sleeping and dying"
is how they were written by devoted monastics whose lives were devoted to long days, weeks, months and even years of "entering into their closet"
it was precisely these kinds of actual spiritual practices that served as the ground for their death, rebirth and transformation
yet we refuse to do such things ourselves
when, the hard truth is...if one doesn't somehow learn how to do these kinds of things, one will get no evidence, except what is written in a book, or told in a story
if one doesn't somehow even want to look into these things...one has little to no basis for denying the validity of that which they have not looked into
and even if you or i were to go off in the woods for a month, fasting and dreaming and praying
and we experience some sort of profound inward shift in awareness...
...it would still be considered a mere taste, according to traditional standards
cuz these folks didnt do such things once
...it was their ongoing lifestyle
and it such practices served as a comforter up to and during the actual moments of physical dying
i mean, they were disciples of a path that actually seeks living awareness of "life beyond death," for God's sake
disciplined in actual transformative spiritual practices
what else would it look like? a BBQ? a study session? a festival?
and they had a habit of comparing results
peer-to-peer sharing of spiritual experiences
not empty religious ritual, but an actual science of body and mind and soul
in the forms of prescriptive behaviour as prescribed by the greatest rabbi of all time
and spiritual dying was the highest art form
and the foundational preparation for being able to help the sick and dying
prayer was not a 5 minute ritual before bed
or something you do in church before a sermon
or something you do just before you go in for the job interview
so yeah....in a sense, these guys were deeply esoteric extremists
go ahead...read the gospels again, and compare their lives to ours
their spirituallity was not limited to simply finding a church that they enjoy
and heck, if someone doesnt like the notion of esoteric...then don't read the old testament saints either
back before the Kid came and showed them less-crude and cumbersome ways of "dying"
what i am NOT saying is that one has to go off in the woods for a month to be a good or spiritual person
but what i AM saying is that the guys who wrote scripture DID
what i am NOT saying is that prayer and fasting is all that they did
what i AM saying is that they did it, and it was the spiritual milk and groundwork for all the other things
now, how this plays out in modern life is a whole new game, in a sense
but not entirely new, because the human body, soul and spirit has not changed that much at all
and so the process by which it is as radically transformed as it was in those days is the same
its just that our hyper go go go culture seem to make it more difficult than ever before
must be a sign of the times, as they say
...
and if so...
exactly how does one raise this subject without sounding harsh?
how does one raise this subject without causing fear and anxiety and anger?
how does one raise this subject without pointing to something that is severely lacking?
It would mean they'd have to come face to face with "THEMSELVES" (ahhh the horror)
yeah...i like to call it "the blood red path of the lamb"
"no wusses beyond this point"
though amazingly, most women are already more familiar with processing pain
its the guys who have a harder time with the message
cuz the only way to shine light in new places is to enter the darkness with candle held high
and this simply hurts...there are no two ways about it
and the first darkness we should face, is the darkness within
or else our own darkness blinds us to that which is without
we truly are dead asleep to our own sins, to whatever degree
no, this is not an easy truth
and yeah, if we are alseep, we will think we are innocent and blame others
when we are willfully ignorant of our own interior shadows and refuse to die to them
our behaviour comes from a "darkened heart"
not an evil heart, just one that is closed and hidden in the darkness of our selves
like seed that has not yet died and opened and sprouted, to whatever degree
this is not an easy truth either
But, he paid the price so we didn't have to, because of all those things we are.
i think it was vpw who said that
Jesus said things like "follow me"
and so he went within himself and faced the darkness
which showed them how to go within themselves and face the darkness
(among many other things)
he showed them how to "die before they died"
so that they can be reborn within and serve
he showed them how to repent, and turn completely around from exterior fixations to interior responsibility...
...and not just for our own sake, but for the world's
prior to Jesus showing us the most direct way to God
most of the world was fumbling with much larger and cruder systems for processing the interior darkness
and i think that in this sense, he did fulfill and complete the great work that the great tribal and temple rituals and laws were honestly trying to do about our inward broken nature
he simply showed the more direct and efficient route...and finally put it into our own hands
Hi Bliss...I actually wasn't boasting with what I said, but wanting to show a God of signs, miracles and wonders who works with someone who says 5 minute prayers JUST AS MUCH as someone who sits up in a tree and fasts for 40 days.
I think Jesus also tried to make the same point, "the son of man comes drinking and feasting and ye say he has a devil " type of thing.
The Word I believe works for me (faith with woks is ALIVE)! If faith with Jewish chanting works for someone else...great.
I also agree with Oaks. Comments were made with a 'special knowledge' tag that only some can 'see' because they have reached the 'right level'. Straight off the pages of a 'cult warning' book... IMO.
As for me, as I [/i] have posted before I walk the walk the best way I can [/i] and over the years can PERSONALLY testify of signs, miracles, wonders (big and small). They have ALWAYS been an enhancement of the 'written Word' as I understand it. Never at cross purposes with it. Helping my wifes 8 year old niece instantaneously awaken out of a DEEP coma she had been induced in because of meningococal meningitis is 'spiritual' enough for me.
Unless you've got something similar to testify of Todd in your own 'spirit-filled' walk keep your self serving ramblings to yourself. And I'll bet 10 bucks to a hundred even if you are walking the ministering walk of CHRISTianity, for every carpark in front of a store story you've got , me and others I associate with have got half a dozen stories that would make you and Clay pee your pants with New Age envy.
I am a simple kind of a guy (and always hope to be) with 'flashes' of sublime vernacular expressions at time.
'Esotric ramblings of wuthering heights similitude' just don't do a lot for me..o.k.
Oh, "I"am sorry Allen, "I" must have misunderstood this post.
was God mentioned in it???
Not picking at you, but, really, you should look up "boasting." It would do ya good.
You are correct, that God is always at work in peoples lives, no matter what "works'' they do.
Todd- the repentence thing is a really big deal. Too many of us Twiers thought to admit we are sinners or unworthy meant "condemnation". It is not true at all. It is about humility and godly sorrow.
So we would say "greater is he that's in me....." and sin, and never repent truly, because "we've been forgiven".
that is why we would carry such an elitist view. IMO
You are correct, that God is always at work in peoples lives, no matter what "works'' they do.
Ok i need to finish my thought here...........if "faith without works is dead" then, dead can mean works that are done without faith? just thinking out loud.
God blesses saint and sinner alike, would you agree, Alan? Then what is it?
To me, it is about a RELATIONSHIP
which is why I disagree with the notion that TWI taught us a true relationship with God. They just taught us what a book said about God. The rest is up to us. Going deep/stripping down all masks and facades, brings a closeness factor that for me was totally missing before.
most of the "all nine all the time'', believing = receiving, all power" doctrine did nothing but elevate us, detract from God and make us all a little nuts.
Comments were made with a 'special knowledge' tag that only some can 'see' because they have reached the 'right level'. Straight off the pages of a 'cult warning' book... IMO.
You are welcome to your opinion allan but you are wrong in your assessment.
Some do know more then others-that's obvious to a logical person.
No one said anything about any "level".
Most just want to stay academic with the Word which is fine and has it's place.
Some want to experience and see and live what is seen in Acts.
And I'll make no attempt to hide that I think 1 Thess 4 IS and can be lived and IS lived today.
You want a "'special knowledge' tag ", check out the anointing talked about in 1 John or the comforter,Spirit that will lead you into all truth. Those verses you will find in the scriptures-truth is spiritual and therefore can only be shown to someone by the spirit.
That's what the bible says and that's the way it is.
You want to stay with books and never SEE it for real.
That is your priveledge and I got no problem with it.
But many want go messing with those who are ready to see more.
It takes courage to go against all odds and see more.
Todd- the repentence thing is a really big deal. Too many of us Twiers thought to admit we are sinners or unworthy meant "condemnation". It is not true at all. It is about humility and godly sorrow.
So we would say "greater is he that's in me....." and sin, and never repent truly, because "we've been forgiven".
that is why we would carry such an elitist view. IMO
yeah...mmm..thank you, Bliss
that says it well, i think
if i may add...
yes...its very hard to imagine how our deepest and most precious gifts are all wrapped up in our actual brokenness
how the very texture of our messy lives is all we really have
and to lean into the pain is the only way through it
its as if each of us arises from a unique "wound" in creation, which is our true name
and the foundation of our life's work is to repent, turn inward to Christ, and illuminate this truth
the darkness goes away, but the shape remains
and so comes out like the purest gold
but shame is the killer of such interior light...taboo, prejudice
but to return to the nakedness of eden is to shed light on our naked interior without shame
but we gotta make it through those flaming swords...that baptism of fire
we have got to do the craziest thing and actually seek out where there is darkness within ourselves on order to make it through
man o man, that message had to be something new to the biblical world...at once both frightening and promising
for someone to come along and tell people that they can, on their own, without a priest or a temple, turn within and recover their own divine gifts from among the very wreckage of their brokenness...
but yeah...there is a deep sorrow in this interior liberation
with moments of divine humilation that we cannot ignore...or forget
tears of blood
tears of joy
and to face such things prior to death is how we wake up in life
but to avoid such things throughout our life is to die without hope
You think? I am sorry, I am not a doctrinal wordsmith like you all.
Maybe if I spend more time down here? I have a lot of stuff that I am discovering on my new spiritual journey outside of WAYLAND. It is quite exciting, I have to say.
His Holiness does involve fire, and pain and faith. That is why Romans 6 talks about "living sacrifice". It's a continuous thing we are to walk in.
I just think it's a darned shame when an atheist or agnostic (no insult intended) can say it better than any Christian or pseudo Christian.I forget who said it here but they said " how close can someone get to an invisible God " ?! I agree...we have scriptures, why not get out and live them, minister them. ??
I don't need pscycho babble and mantra chanting to get close to God. I figure this is as close as I need to get for now until the 'gathering together' when we'll all be as 'close as it gets', you know.
Another one of the things I remain thankful for is the understanding that we are not 'defeated' 'broken' Christians as many people think we are meant to be. Open doors for excuses and trashing by the adversary IMO. BTW Todd, Clay...what's your take on Satan ? haven't really seen you bring him into the topic yet ??
Just because you don't understand what is being said does not mean that it doesn't have an understanding to it.
And just in case you are considering that Todd and I or anyone else is in some kind of group to recruit followers. We are not and furthewrmore we can disagree with each other without even flinching.
Should you ever get the chance to talk to todd, he will talk your ear off...lol!
I understand some of what he says but not all. But I listen cause I know his heart of love.
Love is a requirement for TRUE spiritual growth. Love, not of yourself but a love to be like him and see him as he is. Even if it's with a mirror, cuz face to face no man will live. And that is the dieing before you die. Face to Face and that life that is hid in Christ will be seen.
until the 'gathering together' when we'll all be as 'close as it gets', you know
If that can happen now, wouldn't that be something?
And then what would even be greater then that when we shed this flesh for good?
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
Meaning he's doing it (staying alive) for the people's sake?
Sounds like it. TWI used to try an explain this verse about "death is gain". I never understood. I will look up my notes on it, unless you know already................
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Oh..and your avatar sort of freaks me out a bit too.
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CM
Oakspear
which is quite different then what you are now sayingAnd for the record I did-
That's why I question the fact that you didn't even read it or consider it. And why would you feel condescended to? That really is perplexing to me. Is it that you have had a bad experience with looking inwardly where God has and is claiming to be working? And there is nothing "special" about inner understanding. Where else would anything be understood?
So anyways your initial post ....ed me off cause you didn't address the subject. I did quite a bit.
peace
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bliss
second, Allen, I love ya, so please do a word search on "boasting". Your boasting should be in the LORD only, and not of yourself. Those examples may be a great testimony, but should give GLORY TO GOD, and not yourself or your methodology.
Next, I'd love these threads to be "free" thinking to all possibilities, and not just are preconceived doctrine tell us. It is all about perception. so I love reading others "view", so that God can show me what I need to know.
John 14:26
.............."the holy ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring you to remembrance..............."
let us not forget this..............in TWI we didnt' even know this verse exsisted. (me anyway)
now, lets kiss and make up and get on with it
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Oakspear
Just for the record gents, I have no problem accepting that you or anyone else can "know" or experience something that is beyond mundane understanding: "inner" enlightenment, so to speak. I do have a problem when that "inner" understanding is presented as the last word, since there is absolutely no way that it can be analyzed, critiqued (sp?), or possibly even rationally discussed.
I re-read it this morning. You presented an interesting proposition. It then appears that you apply your alternative interpretation to a number of verses and sections without really giving a reason why this alternative interpretation is valid. Any time someone claims "special knowledge" that only some can know or understand, it appears to be the assumption of an elitist position. In my opinion, that's condescending.Actually no, but thanks for playing.
Well, I've got to go to work and otherwise live life. Enjoy yourselves, and try not to beat up on Allan too bad.
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CM
That was a serious question because I have.
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CM
Well...let's consider this...
If it's talking about physical death.
Is anyone left out? Meaning does this just apply to those "born again" (which could be a whole thread by itself).
And how does it apply. In another words how does it happen?
If it's talking about something happening now. Is anyone left out?
And of course if it is happening now, how many ways does it happen?
And if you read into this that I'm promoting just one thing, you are mistaken.
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sirguessalot
well..heerz something, too
along the lines of actual practical ways of "waking from death"
to address the demands for actual believable evidence
can you imagine spending 9 whole days doing nothing but sitting, fasting and praying?
or 40 whole days in nature fasting and praying?
and by praying, i mean a specific and very focused mental routine involving holding awarenes of one's body, soul, mind, heart, spirit...everything
try it, and see if you do not experience a profound and unmistakable inward death
and as you try it, try and control your breath according to some ancient jewish art form, and try and stay awake and examine all the various altered states of consciousness you go through each day...stay awake throughout the variety of dream states and dreamless states, and take good notes to share with your fellowship of disciples
not to sound harsh...but honestly, go off in the woods by yourself for a month
or in the upper rooms of a temple
and sit for 9 days straight
heck, lock yourself in your house for a week
and practice escaping your very mind
and opening your very heart
and tell me what happens inside of you
tell me what change take place in the actual substance of your thoughts, dreams, and bodily feelings
holy cow...talk about actual demonstration of the revelation of inward man...
and as harsh as it may sound...if you dont somehow learn how to do these kinds of things, you cannot see the nature of what the writers of scripture saw
(except in cases where one is konked over the head with a shovel, for example, or experiences other severe trauma...such as being in a coma, near death, serious illnes, a severe heroin withdrawal, etc... even though these are not stable practices...they touch the same interior and exterior places)
in actual living practical terms...what i think most christians tend to completely miss regarding the new testament scriptual accounts of "sleeping and dying"
is how they were written by devoted monastics whose lives were devoted to long days, weeks, months and even years of "entering into their closet"
it was precisely these kinds of actual spiritual practices that served as the ground for their death, rebirth and transformation
yet we refuse to do such things ourselves
when, the hard truth is...if one doesn't somehow learn how to do these kinds of things, one will get no evidence, except what is written in a book, or told in a story
if one doesn't somehow even want to look into these things...one has little to no basis for denying the validity of that which they have not looked into
and even if you or i were to go off in the woods for a month, fasting and dreaming and praying
and we experience some sort of profound inward shift in awareness...
...it would still be considered a mere taste, according to traditional standards
cuz these folks didnt do such things once
...it was their ongoing lifestyle
and it such practices served as a comforter up to and during the actual moments of physical dying
i mean, they were disciples of a path that actually seeks living awareness of "life beyond death," for God's sake
disciplined in actual transformative spiritual practices
what else would it look like? a BBQ? a study session? a festival?
and they had a habit of comparing results
peer-to-peer sharing of spiritual experiences
not empty religious ritual, but an actual science of body and mind and soul
in the forms of prescriptive behaviour as prescribed by the greatest rabbi of all time
and spiritual dying was the highest art form
and the foundational preparation for being able to help the sick and dying
prayer was not a 5 minute ritual before bed
or something you do in church before a sermon
or something you do just before you go in for the job interview
so yeah....in a sense, these guys were deeply esoteric extremists
go ahead...read the gospels again, and compare their lives to ours
their spirituallity was not limited to simply finding a church that they enjoy
and heck, if someone doesnt like the notion of esoteric...then don't read the old testament saints either
back before the Kid came and showed them less-crude and cumbersome ways of "dying"
what i am NOT saying is that one has to go off in the woods for a month to be a good or spiritual person
but what i AM saying is that the guys who wrote scripture DID
what i am NOT saying is that prayer and fasting is all that they did
what i AM saying is that they did it, and it was the spiritual milk and groundwork for all the other things
now, how this plays out in modern life is a whole new game, in a sense
but not entirely new, because the human body, soul and spirit has not changed that much at all
and so the process by which it is as radically transformed as it was in those days is the same
its just that our hyper go go go culture seem to make it more difficult than ever before
must be a sign of the times, as they say
...
and if so...
exactly how does one raise this subject without sounding harsh?
how does one raise this subject without causing fear and anxiety and anger?
how does one raise this subject without pointing to something that is severely lacking?
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sirguessalot
btw, again...this is not meant to downplay anyone's actual experience of God, or spirit
or any such new found freedoms found in life that come without such "dying" as i am getting at
there are plenty of these, too, imo
i am overjoyed whenever i hear someone declare a new level of liberation
(except when in those cases when this "new freedom" also include things like lynch mobs and suicide bombs)
but i am pointing to even greater depth to which the writers of scripture delved
because for every rung we reach
there is always another above
and another below
thank God the mystery never ends
and though we may pause between them
and spread our wings on that plane
there is always room to grow for those who are ready
(and yes...there are times in life when are ready to grow
and times when we are not...who else can say when this is but us)
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bliss
Very interesting Todd
Not many people would be comfortable doing this
It would mean they 'd have to come face to face with "THEMSELVES" (ahhh the horror)
I'd have to face
my wretchedness
my guiltiness
my ugliness
my selfishness
my worthlisness
my sins
maybe then, just maybe this is what it takes to truly understand what Christ did for us.
I know we "know" what He did for us.
But, he paid the price so we didn't have to, because of all those things we are.
Only Adam/Eve and Jesus were born innocent.
If you think you are innocent, then you blame others for everything.
My pursuit is holiness= complete dependence on HIM.
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hi Bliss...thanks for the spanking, btw :)
i can be such a spaz at times
apologies if my response seems heavy
im never quite sure how else to be with all this
yeah...i like to call it "the blood red path of the lamb""no wusses beyond this point"
though amazingly, most women are already more familiar with processing pain
its the guys who have a harder time with the message
cuz the only way to shine light in new places is to enter the darkness with candle held high
and this simply hurts...there are no two ways about it
and the first darkness we should face, is the darkness within
or else our own darkness blinds us to that which is without
we truly are dead asleep to our own sins, to whatever degree
no, this is not an easy truth
and yeah, if we are alseep, we will think we are innocent and blame others
when we are willfully ignorant of our own interior shadows and refuse to die to them
our behaviour comes from a "darkened heart"
not an evil heart, just one that is closed and hidden in the darkness of our selves
like seed that has not yet died and opened and sprouted, to whatever degree
this is not an easy truth either
i think it was vpw who said that
Jesus said things like "follow me"
and so he went within himself and faced the darkness
which showed them how to go within themselves and face the darkness
(among many other things)
he showed them how to "die before they died"
so that they can be reborn within and serve
he showed them how to repent, and turn completely around from exterior fixations to interior responsibility...
...and not just for our own sake, but for the world's
prior to Jesus showing us the most direct way to God
most of the world was fumbling with much larger and cruder systems for processing the interior darkness
and i think that in this sense, he did fulfill and complete the great work that the great tribal and temple rituals and laws were honestly trying to do about our inward broken nature
he simply showed the more direct and efficient route...and finally put it into our own hands
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allan w.
Hi Bliss...I actually wasn't boasting with what I said, but wanting to show a God of signs, miracles and wonders who works with someone who says 5 minute prayers JUST AS MUCH as someone who sits up in a tree and fasts for 40 days.
I think Jesus also tried to make the same point, "the son of man comes drinking and feasting and ye say he has a devil " type of thing.
The Word I believe works for me (faith with woks is ALIVE)! If faith with Jewish chanting works for someone else...great.
I also agree with Oaks. Comments were made with a 'special knowledge' tag that only some can 'see' because they have reached the 'right level'. Straight off the pages of a 'cult warning' book... IMO.
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bliss
Oh, "I"am sorry Allen, "I" must have misunderstood this post.
was God mentioned in it???
Not picking at you, but, really, you should look up "boasting." It would do ya good.
You are correct, that God is always at work in peoples lives, no matter what "works'' they do.
Todd- the repentence thing is a really big deal. Too many of us Twiers thought to admit we are sinners or unworthy meant "condemnation". It is not true at all. It is about humility and godly sorrow.
So we would say "greater is he that's in me....." and sin, and never repent truly, because "we've been forgiven".
that is why we would carry such an elitist view. IMO
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bliss
Ok i need to finish my thought here...........if "faith without works is dead" then, dead can mean works that are done without faith? just thinking out loud.
God blesses saint and sinner alike, would you agree, Alan? Then what is it?
To me, it is about a RELATIONSHIP
which is why I disagree with the notion that TWI taught us a true relationship with God. They just taught us what a book said about God. The rest is up to us. Going deep/stripping down all masks and facades, brings a closeness factor that for me was totally missing before.
most of the "all nine all the time'', believing = receiving, all power" doctrine did nothing but elevate us, detract from God and make us all a little nuts.
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CM
You are welcome to your opinion allan but you are wrong in your assessment.
Some do know more then others-that's obvious to a logical person.
No one said anything about any "level".
Most just want to stay academic with the Word which is fine and has it's place.
Some want to experience and see and live what is seen in Acts.
And I'll make no attempt to hide that I think 1 Thess 4 IS and can be lived and IS lived today.
You want a "'special knowledge' tag ", check out the anointing talked about in 1 John or the comforter,Spirit that will lead you into all truth. Those verses you will find in the scriptures-truth is spiritual and therefore can only be shown to someone by the spirit.
That's what the bible says and that's the way it is.
You want to stay with books and never SEE it for real.
That is your priveledge and I got no problem with it.
But many want go messing with those who are ready to see more.
It takes courage to go against all odds and see more.
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sirguessalot
yeah...mmm..thank you, Bliss
that says it well, i think
if i may add...
yes...its very hard to imagine how our deepest and most precious gifts are all wrapped up in our actual brokenness
how the very texture of our messy lives is all we really have
and to lean into the pain is the only way through it
its as if each of us arises from a unique "wound" in creation, which is our true name
and the foundation of our life's work is to repent, turn inward to Christ, and illuminate this truth
the darkness goes away, but the shape remains
and so comes out like the purest gold
but shame is the killer of such interior light...taboo, prejudice
but to return to the nakedness of eden is to shed light on our naked interior without shame
but we gotta make it through those flaming swords...that baptism of fire
we have got to do the craziest thing and actually seek out where there is darkness within ourselves on order to make it through
man o man, that message had to be something new to the biblical world...at once both frightening and promising
for someone to come along and tell people that they can, on their own, without a priest or a temple, turn within and recover their own divine gifts from among the very wreckage of their brokenness...
but yeah...there is a deep sorrow in this interior liberation
with moments of divine humilation that we cannot ignore...or forget
tears of blood
tears of joy
and to face such things prior to death is how we wake up in life
but to avoid such things throughout our life is to die without hope
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bliss
You think? I am sorry, I am not a doctrinal wordsmith like you all.
Maybe if I spend more time down here? I have a lot of stuff that I am discovering on my new spiritual journey outside of WAYLAND. It is quite exciting, I have to say.
His Holiness does involve fire, and pain and faith. That is why Romans 6 talks about "living sacrifice". It's a continuous thing we are to walk in.
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allan w.
I just think it's a darned shame when an atheist or agnostic (no insult intended) can say it better than any Christian or pseudo Christian.I forget who said it here but they said " how close can someone get to an invisible God " ?! I agree...we have scriptures, why not get out and live them, minister them. ??
I don't need pscycho babble and mantra chanting to get close to God. I figure this is as close as I need to get for now until the 'gathering together' when we'll all be as 'close as it gets', you know.
Another one of the things I remain thankful for is the understanding that we are not 'defeated' 'broken' Christians as many people think we are meant to be. Open doors for excuses and trashing by the adversary IMO. BTW Todd, Clay...what's your take on Satan ? haven't really seen you bring him into the topic yet ??
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CM
allan,
who said anything about
Just because you don't understand what is being said does not mean that it doesn't have an understanding to it.And just in case you are considering that Todd and I or anyone else is in some kind of group to recruit followers. We are not and furthewrmore we can disagree with each other without even flinching.
Should you ever get the chance to talk to todd, he will talk your ear off...lol!
I understand some of what he says but not all. But I listen cause I know his heart of love.
Love is a requirement for TRUE spiritual growth. Love, not of yourself but a love to be like him and see him as he is. Even if it's with a mirror, cuz face to face no man will live. And that is the dieing before you die. Face to Face and that life that is hid in Christ will be seen.
If that can happen now, wouldn't that be something?
And then what would even be greater then that when we shed this flesh for good?
Christ is alive.
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CM
Here's some more to play with in this regard...
20According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death.
21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;
26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
27Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;
28And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
29For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
30Having the same conflict which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
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sirguessalot
allan, please check your private topics
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allan w.
I did...thanks for that...I take back HALF of what I said about you !!
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CM
Looks like I've run off most everyone here...lol.
Just look at it.
Who really understood those verses in Philipians when vp taught it?
It didn't make sense what he was saying and the way he said it should be seen.
And 1 Thessolonians 4, man this is life.
And thanks Abi and the few who do see.
I'm willing to discuss alternatives, I said that from the beginning.
But please don't waste my time or yours with twi dogma.
We all already know what that is.
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CM
And if these verses in Philipians are talking of physical death.
Then how would this fit in?
26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
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bliss
Meaning he's doing it (staying alive) for the people's sake?
Sounds like it. TWI used to try an explain this verse about "death is gain". I never understood. I will look up my notes on it, unless you know already................
You can't run me off
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