Clay, I am not sure who you addresed this to but I will reply with some thoughts.
Whether you agree with what was posted or not is not the point.
Investigating it is.
Clay, You seem to be presuming a bit here. As for me, I have been out of TWI for around 25 years. I have been studying Christianity and investigating various ways of looking at scripture since then. I am not a neophyte when it come to biblical hermeneutics. Would it suprise you to know that I do not necessarily believe that the Bible is the Word of God - at least not in the way that TWI and many fundamental and evangelicals teach it. I think it is generally reliable and inspired, but having a human element in it, I accept that there are some inconsistencies. I don't espouse a purely literal interpretation of the scriptures. I dont necessarily believe that all the books in the "Bible" actually belong in the Bible or that a dictated canon is even necessary in regards to Chrisitanity.
So how do you know what I (or anyone else) has or has not investigated in the time they have been out of TWI? In the last 25 years, I have investigated many intetpretation methods and doctrines. In these investigations I have accepted some things and rejected others - it is an ongoing process.
If you don't want to investigate it, fine with me.
But why bring to the table that which I already know?
And you know I know it.
I don't think you know at all what I or anyone else can bring to the table unless you allow them at the table without preconceptions. You have prejudged what you don't know.
You are wasting my time And yours. Stay with what you want to believe. Some want to go further then what was shoved down our throats and never seen for ourselves.
Wanting to go further that TWI teaching ( I assume that is what you meant) is a great thing. As for me, I have moved far beyond TWI teaching in the last 25 years and I am still moving. The fact that someone may not be moving in the same fashion as you, does not make their spiritual growth or understanding any less valid than yours.
This is why I say your thinking is twi'ish and narrow minded. You will not even consider other perspectives.
So once again why are you even posting on this thread?
I think this as addressed to Oak ? Did you know that Oak was an agnostic? I think that demonstrates pretty well his willingness to consider other prospectives.
I made it clear from the beginning it's purpose. If you don't believe it or comprehend that's fine with me. There are those who do. Why do you stand in their way. Everyone already knows what vpw taught on this and you are presenting the same. Just a waste of breath.
Anyone with a cursory understanding of theology knows that the more commonly accepted interpretation 1Thessolonians did not originate with VPW. This goes way way back. Seems you attempting to associate the more common understanding with VPW in order to somehow discredit it ? -- That won't work here. Not everything VPW taught was wrong. VPW taught that God loves you - didn't he? This is not a TWI or VPW issue.
Clay, no one is standing in the way of anyone believing or compreheding what you are attempting to put forth. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you jjust don't want anyone to see or consider any other view than your own.
And that's all I have to say to those not interested in investigating more of what the deep hidden treasures of God are.
The fact that some folks may choose different approach than yours to understanding the Bible, God, Jesus, et al ... does not mean they are not interested in finding the hidden deep treasures of God. I find that kind of thinking rather obnoxious -- Be careful that you don't fall in to the "my way is the only way" trap... We know what happened in TWI ....
Geesh...hit a raw nerve there. I myself tend to not so much look at the posts themselves as much as the 'whole intent' behind them. And basically, when I look at Todd and Clays posts (especially as of late) I would have to say you two are into some 'heavy ....' and unfortunately I don't mean the good kind.
The way you two are so quick to spew that vitriolic threatening cr*p out, leads me to believe that we're working for two differn't Lords.
To think that either of you could humiliate me more than my bro-in-law and other twi leadership did after I left is wishful thinking on your part.
It would certainly make sense to address physical death in the context of a relatively new christian church established withing a pagan community that basically did did not believe in life after physical death (others that have no hope). It would make perfect sense to address physical death if the church there at Thessalonica was grieving over brothers or sisters that had physically died. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
Clay, it is debatable if your interpretation reveals a "mystery". One does not have to be "entrenched in literalism and TWI thinking" to interpret of 1 Thessalonians in terms of physical death. I fail to see the profit in this apparant jab and unnecessary labeling of those who might take issue with your opinion.
and before that this-
In regards to 1 Thessalonians I am not so sure that death refers to anything but physical death. I would need more than a list of scriptures and speculation to seriously entertain the possibility that 1 Thes is not refering to physical death. I see nothing in the context or a natural reading to suggest otherwise.
To me it seems clear that 1 Thessalonians 4 is refering to "at least" to a physical death and resurection. If there is another layer there, I don't see it.
You are apparently staying with physical death being the subject of 1 Thessolonians 4.
And I do blame twi for this type of thinking within ourselves because that is where it originated for most of us.
Can you relate to that? Staying with physical death as the subject does not fit with the rest of
Thessolonians 1st or 2nd and it does not fit with the other scriptures relating to the same words used.
Namely Dead and Sleep.
I listed all the scriptures from Paul's 7 epistles I think. There are certainly more to consider.
I am not asking anyone to change what they believe but to consider other possibilities. This is why it's annoying to me for someone to say "prove it" because I am in the process of learning myself as we all should be. Cuz if learning God, His Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit stops then there is a limit placed on the unlimited. And we are then stuck into a mold or doctrine that is dead and not living and growing. Faith grows, wisdom and understanding grows. Why stop? If stopped then it becomes a doctrine and spawns many mini doctrines to support itself. And it then becomes dead and not the Word of Life.
Geesh...hit a raw nerve there. I myself tend to not so much look at the posts themselves as much as the 'whole intent' behind them. And basically, when I look at Todd and Clays posts (especially as of late) I would have to say you two are into some 'heavy ....' and unfortunately I don't mean the good kind.
The way you two are so quick to spew that vitriolic threatening cr*p out, leads me to believe that we're working for two differn't Lords.
To think that either of you could humiliate me more than my bro-in-law and other twi leadership did after I left is wishful thinking on your part.
What are you talking about allan? What specifics, or are you just throwing this out to put fear into people? Just what do you see as my intent?
Pwerhaps investigating various ways of seeing what God has already done in us would be a far more exciting adventure then a bunch of scriptures that do not live untill seen in various processes of learning and believing and seeing it live within ourselves
Just because Todd, Clay and thousands if not millons of other Christians espouse a different approach to scriptual understanding than you or I ( yours and mine are different by the way) does not mean they are serving Satan ...Stop adding fuel to the fire.
Discuss the topic at hand .. Which is 1 Thessolonians 4. Either that or get out of the thread.
That is what I tried to do from the get go, discuss 1 Thessalonians 4, but I don't seem to have the stomach for any longer. It' s not that important anyway.
I posted my take on it...'asleep in Christ' (dead) ties in with 'many are sickly and weak and many sleep' (dead). I also took CM's abuse as directed at me as well, along with Todds threats. A real 'holistic' thread me thinks.
My take on the threads original question stands as read above.
... this is a doctrinal forum where ideas are discussed. Discussion implies two way dialog. There are bound to be opposing views. Disagreement is not "attack".
I think Goey's statement here bears worth repeating.
The fact of the matter is, I see merits in both sides of the discussion - as well as weaknesses.
This forum can be an invaluable venue to "test" out ideas.
When I propose a theory in these forums, I damn well would like to be aware any proposals concerning its perceived weaknesses. Such enables me to go back to the "drawing board", explore and further adjust or revise a theory, or perhaps even (as in some cases) ditch it altogether if need be.
My main objective for participating in these forums is not toward "agreement". Very few people have agreed with any or all of my views concerning my research in the subject of Marcion - and quite honestly, it really doesn't bother me. Nor do I think less of those who disagree. Nor do I think they're any less acute or spiritual than I. I didn't reach my own personal views overnight - which are admittedly hard to swallow. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that others should be so quick to agree with anything I propose.
There is much that can be gained from disagreements. In fact, even much more.
The fact of the matter is, "sleep" in 1 Thess. may indeed indicate "physical" death.
Or it may mean "spiritual" death. Or possibly a bit of both.
Or if we were to explore further, perhaps we might even discover - "neither of the above".
As I stated earlier, metaphorical interpretation may be just as fraught with difficulties as ultra-literal meanings. As scholars, - explorers - and human beings - we should remain open to all the possibilities.
But most importantly - we should endeavor to discuss these ideas openly, with respect toward one another, without flying off the handle, and taking doctrinal disagreements so damn personally.
As for my own personal opinion as to the interpretation of this section in 1 Thess. - the "jury is still out" with me. There's still many things about this section that I'm still considering, and/or that I still don't know. I still lean toward the "rapture" theory as has been taught in the past, by virtue of its "gnostic" character of "alienation" to "the world", through those expressions of desiring to depart from "this world" and to be in another. How did Bible believing Christians reach such a distinctive "gnostic' positions without betraying awareness of the subject of gnosticism. Unless, perchance, these scriptures are betraying gnostic elements that are already present within. I am personally gravitating toward the position that none of the Pauline literature that has come down to us predates the second century. But that's my opinion, and I don't expect others would agree, - and of course, I could be wrong -but I would be glad to share some thoughts on this if anyone is interested (another thread perhaps).
I hope everyone chills out, loosens up, and takes a moment to check out that link to that trippy "rapture" comic I posted earlier.
I predict bell-bottoms will come back into fashion.
well, Danny, one of the major distinctions i see going on here
is how some prefer to discuss interpretation of scripture from the research and accuracy point of view
and some prefer to express their experiences of scripture without all that pressure to be so correct
(and of course, some want to play in both modalities)
but if those who lean towards the research and accuracy modalities do not see the value of other modes
even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness and safety of other modes of discourse and interpretation
or suggesting that posters are unsound and conform or move to other venues because of it...
...i do reserve the right to stand up and shout a bit from time to time
and for specifically personal reasons
even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness of that behaviour
and rightfully so, imo
btw..love the comic
as well as your insight
and i must say that i do sincerely appreciate this remark you made, Goey:
Just because Todd, Clay and thousands if not millons of other Christians espouse a different approach to scriptual understanding than you or I...
because i think it really speaks to what i am saying here
and what i see my friend Clay saying and doing here
and what i am fighting for, and the distinctions i am trying to call attention to
peace to you
privately, of all the forms of hermeneutics, heuristics, semiotics, eisegesis, exegesis, contemplations, deconstruction, pesher techniques, narrative and meta-narrative paradigms...and yada yada what not,
i prefer an integral approach to art and literary criticism, particularly favoring a healthy blend of semiotics and post-structuralism
but i find trying to explain or keep track of all the many different modalities boring, tedious and quite the yawnathon at most cocktail parties
and so i stick to simple original poetic expressions of my spiritual experiences, lest i find myself having to defend someone other than myself
and i highly enjoy finding others who like to do the same
forgive for wishing outloud for other children to play with
and for a place where the adults will at least take their shoes off and sit on the floor if they insist on being there
privately, of all the forms of hermeneutics, heuristics, semiotics, eisegesis, exegesis, contemplations, deconstruction, pesher techniques, narrative and meta-narrative paradigms...and yada yada what not,
i prefer an integral approach to art and literary criticism, particularly favoring a healthy blend of semiotics and post-structuralism
but i find trying to explain or keep track of all the many different modalities boring, tedious and quite the yawnathon at most cocktail parties
and so i stick to simple original poetic expressions of my spiritual experiences, lest i find myself having to defend someone other than myself
and i highly enjoy finding others who like to do the same
Yes, I think I gather what you're saying here...I oft think some scholars get so caught in their various, impressive methodologies as to miss the actual substance of what they may have initially sought. If these methods are put in service to the heart, wonderful. If not, their efforts may amount toward masturbating other collegues' minds, and tragically serving little else.
There's a man who works at a local convenience store here, who's about to move to Hawaii to become a schoolteacher. And one thing he has stated to me a couple of times has stuck with me: if one wants to understand history and how people thought back then, consider how people think today.
Why did I post here? Because I thought the idea was intriguing, but wasn't seing any reason, compelling or otherwise, to go with any interpretation for "sleep" other than physical death.
I find the approach that one needs some kind of special "inner" understanding to get something condescending. If you have a position that differs from the so-called accepted or mainstream thinking, present the basis, expound on the logic, geez, say something convincing.
On the other hand, if you don't agree with my opinion regarding how discussions should be carried out, feel free to ignore me, I don't get to set the guidelines of how everyone else has to behave, however, I do get to express my opinion. And I will probably still express it sarcastically from time to time.
I find the approach that one needs some kind of special "inner" understanding to get something condescending.
i'm kinda sorry you feel that way, Oak
but i can surely understand why you might
what if other levels of inner understanding only seem special
but are actually native (divine, inherent) human capacities we are simply unaware of?
but when we do become aware of them
yes, our understanding changes to some degree or other...perhaps even radically at times
curious...does it bother you because someone else says that their inner awareness has changed in some intense way that has effected their relationship to scripture?
and you don't think yours has?
or do you not think that there is such a thing as inner understanding in the first place?
i mean, do you not right now have an inside as well as an outside, both of which you can understand?
doesn't your own understanding have many layers and complex moving parts, both inside and outside?
and haven't you discovered more and more parts and pieces and ways of it as the years go by?
btw...truly sorry if it comes across condescending....just trying to help you see the actual ease of the notion
and i am trying to learn not to be afraid to do so
perhaps it helps see how it might apply to our inner awareness of the possible deathlike-states that already exist in us now
i think it really gets interesting when you get into deep dreamless sleep
which is the kind of stuff the ancients and scripture writers were very interested in as well
I oft think some scholars get so caught in their various, impressive methodologies as to miss the actual substance of what they may have initially sought. If these methods are put in service to the heart, wonderful. If not, their efforts may amount toward masturbating other collegues' minds, and tragically serving little else.
well said Danny...well said
stuck in conceptual wonderland of mental constructs
but lacking the will to actually embody what it is they think they see
As for me, as I have posted before I walk the walk the best way I can and over the years can PERSONALLY testify of signs, miracles, wonders (big and small). They have ALWAYS been an enhancement of the 'written Word' as I understand it. Never at cross purposes with it. Helping my wifes 8 year old niece instantaneously awaken out of a DEEP coma she had been induced in because of meningococal meningitis is 'spiritual' enough for me.
Unless you've got something similar to testify of Todd in your own 'spirit-filled' walk keep your self serving ramblings to yourself. And I'll bet 10 bucks to a hundred even if you are walking the ministering walk of CHRISTianity, for every carpark in front of a store story you've got , me and others I associate with have got half a dozen stories that would make you and Clay pee your pants with New Age envy.
I am a simple kind of a guy (and always hope to be) with 'flashes' of sublime vernacular expressions at time.
'Esotric ramblings of wuthering heights similitude' just don't do a lot for me..o.k.
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WordWolf
I posted many scriptures, did you read them?
btw i got that quote from what Oakspear posted i hope it's accurate.
If it's not please post again, thank you.
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sirguessalot
Oak, i know you didnt address me
but i want to point something out
that i think you may have entirely missed the point of the thread
and jumped the gun
there is nothing accusatory or mocking with this statement
you have overreacted to it, and compound your own mistake
if someone is not ready to consider such a thing..so what
this can be guessed or sensed by someone else
if someone says there is compelling evidence that comes from within...so what
scripture (and science) testifies of this all over the place
if someone says that it is something you have to see for yourself...so what
its the same damn argument used to disprove a thing
if you have never had a specific kind of interior experience...so what
its almost too simple to argue with..unless the idea bothers us personally
why make all the presumptions without even bothering to investigate
maybe Clay can't explain himself as well as you like
and admit it, maybe the oft hostile dialogical environment around here makes it difficult to do, anyway
and yes, failure to see someone's point can be a failure to think about a certain thing
and..."i dont understand what you are saying therefore you are wrong/crazy, etc..."
this is not a sane conclusion, either
is it possible that other people understand Clay's point?
what will you do then?
i think it would be wise to simply inquire
and not from a confrontational place
but like the spirit says..with the spirit of peace
yes..you know...it becomes quite obvious when someone is asking with an agenda
as opposed to sincere inquiry
just as it is quite obvious when someone really only wants to argue
and never really intended to find out what was being said
or maybe simply stops trying to figure out what was being said...for whatever reason
i can understand why Clay stops trying to explain what he is getting at to some people
we all do this...i think it is a healthy choice to make...when we reach our limit
and you or I know when we reach our limit more than anyone else...
though others may foolishly claim to tell us what our our limit is
there comes a point where you have to ask..."why did you bother posting here?"
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sirguessalot
i find it odd, too
how we dont see how we have gotten into this habit of asking for proof and evidence of spiritual things?
how scriptural is that?
when will we learn to lighten up, and simply let people weave their musings on God?
comparing spiritual things with spiritual things
and what can you all say to all those ladies who responded to this thread positively?
did Clay consider it a crime that they claimed they didnt get exactly what he did, but got something out of it?
are you trying to protect them from being tricked by Clay?
lol
i can imagine this might be the knee-jerk reaction after our twi experience
but am i wrong to suggest that we can also try and be aware of this reaction?
how is it that we have come to stop trusting our own interior spiritual experiences?
and even worse, extend our own mistrust towards that interiors of others?
well...we kinda know how, i'm sure
"to die before you die" is the result of an interior path of contemplative practice
and its sad how anthropologists know this about the religions
and most the modern religions don't know it about themselves
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sirguessalot
i will say this...that if one stops seeking exterior proofs and textual evidences of the inward man
and enters what is described (in scripture and without) as the narrowest path to God (within)
eventually, the meanings of the Bible text are going to change before your very eyes
the compelling evidence will hit you between the eyes
and in the heart
and there will be little you can do about it
vp was mostly wrong
because like Jesus said...the new birth is very much like the old
it is bloody and messy and very obviously not some hidden thing
much pain and suffering involved in the new birth
the pangs alone will rock you..or you have missed
when that that Christ that has been conceived within us from the dawn of time will be born within our very hearts with many signs and wonders
there will be no mistake...but you must believe before you see
unless it comes upon you by surprise
but the actual practice is what is missing
and we mostly only talk about spirit
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Goey
Clay, I am not sure who you addresed this to but I will reply with some thoughts.
Clay, You seem to be presuming a bit here. As for me, I have been out of TWI for around 25 years. I have been studying Christianity and investigating various ways of looking at scripture since then. I am not a neophyte when it come to biblical hermeneutics. Would it suprise you to know that I do not necessarily believe that the Bible is the Word of God - at least not in the way that TWI and many fundamental and evangelicals teach it. I think it is generally reliable and inspired, but having a human element in it, I accept that there are some inconsistencies. I don't espouse a purely literal interpretation of the scriptures. I dont necessarily believe that all the books in the "Bible" actually belong in the Bible or that a dictated canon is even necessary in regards to Chrisitanity.
So how do you know what I (or anyone else) has or has not investigated in the time they have been out of TWI? In the last 25 years, I have investigated many intetpretation methods and doctrines. In these investigations I have accepted some things and rejected others - it is an ongoing process.
I don't think you know at all what I or anyone else can bring to the table unless you allow them at the table without preconceptions. You have prejudged what you don't know. Wanting to go further that TWI teaching ( I assume that is what you meant) is a great thing. As for me, I have moved far beyond TWI teaching in the last 25 years and I am still moving. The fact that someone may not be moving in the same fashion as you, does not make their spiritual growth or understanding any less valid than yours. I think this as addressed to Oak ? Did you know that Oak was an agnostic? I think that demonstrates pretty well his willingness to consider other prospectives.Anyone with a cursory understanding of theology knows that the more commonly accepted interpretation 1Thessolonians did not originate with VPW. This goes way way back. Seems you attempting to associate the more common understanding with VPW in order to somehow discredit it ? -- That won't work here. Not everything VPW taught was wrong. VPW taught that God loves you - didn't he? This is not a TWI or VPW issue.
Clay, no one is standing in the way of anyone believing or compreheding what you are attempting to put forth. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that you jjust don't want anyone to see or consider any other view than your own.
The fact that some folks may choose different approach than yours to understanding the Bible, God, Jesus, et al ... does not mean they are not interested in finding the hidden deep treasures of God. I find that kind of thinking rather obnoxious -- Be careful that you don't fall in to the "my way is the only way" trap... We know what happened in TWI ....
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allan w.
Geesh...hit a raw nerve there. I myself tend to not so much look at the posts themselves as much as the 'whole intent' behind them. And basically, when I look at Todd and Clays posts (especially as of late) I would have to say you two are into some 'heavy ....' and unfortunately I don't mean the good kind.
The way you two are so quick to spew that vitriolic threatening cr*p out, leads me to believe that we're working for two differn't Lords.
To think that either of you could humiliate me more than my bro-in-law and other twi leadership did after I left is wishful thinking on your part.
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CM
and before that this-
You are apparently staying with physical death being the subject of 1 Thessolonians 4.
And I do blame twi for this type of thinking within ourselves because that is where it originated for most of us.
Can you relate to that? Staying with physical death as the subject does not fit with the rest of
Thessolonians 1st or 2nd and it does not fit with the other scriptures relating to the same words used.
Namely Dead and Sleep.
I listed all the scriptures from Paul's 7 epistles I think. There are certainly more to consider.
I am not asking anyone to change what they believe but to consider other possibilities. This is why it's annoying to me for someone to say "prove it" because I am in the process of learning myself as we all should be. Cuz if learning God, His Word, Christ, and the Holy Spirit stops then there is a limit placed on the unlimited. And we are then stuck into a mold or doctrine that is dead and not living and growing. Faith grows, wisdom and understanding grows. Why stop? If stopped then it becomes a doctrine and spawns many mini doctrines to support itself. And it then becomes dead and not the Word of Life.
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CM
What are you talking about allan? What specifics, or are you just throwing this out to put fear into people? Just what do you see as my intent?
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CM
That's .... Goey and an attempt to discredit me.
I put forth more then one viewpoint and very few can see it.
Not surprising to me seeing as twi had such a strong hold on what to think.
What the hell happened to free thinking?
To the Pure all things are Pure.
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CM
Pwerhaps investigating various ways of seeing what God has already done in us would be a far more exciting adventure then a bunch of scriptures that do not live untill seen in various processes of learning and believing and seeing it live within ourselves
Too much for some, but it can be done.
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sirguessalot
sincerest apologies, allan
i have forgetten how wounded you already are
i'm sure the last thing you need are more threats of humility
i just wish you could see yourself as others do, here
and i wish you could put yourself in others shoes, here
who knows..maybe you can, and just dont have the heart to care any more,
being the self-proclaimed a$$ that you are
either way, i thank God hardly anyone takes your slander or insight very seriously
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Goey
Allen,
For Gods sake lay off will you?
Just because Todd, Clay and thousands if not millons of other Christians espouse a different approach to scriptual understanding than you or I ( yours and mine are different by the way) does not mean they are serving Satan ...Stop adding fuel to the fire.
Discuss the topic at hand .. Which is 1 Thessolonians 4. Either that or get out of the thread.
That is what I tried to do from the get go, discuss 1 Thessalonians 4, but I don't seem to have the stomach for any longer. It' s not that important anyway.
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CM
Such a waste of a good thread that turned away from it's true intent.
Hopefully it will get back to seeing what God wants us to see.
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CM
Worthy of repeating imo.
I'd add that believing before seeing is the work of the spirit of God within.
I'm still willing Goey. But I can't stay stuck into one interpretation.
Are you willing to look at a few perspectives?
darn it-can't get the thing to make my newest comment to be a separate post...lol
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CM
Well...I gotta get some "sleep"...lol...pun intended.
There's always new days to consider new things.
All things become new...constantly, quite the ride.
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allan w.
I posted my take on it...'asleep in Christ' (dead) ties in with 'many are sickly and weak and many sleep' (dead). I also took CM's abuse as directed at me as well, along with Todds threats. A real 'holistic' thread me thinks.
My take on the threads original question stands as read above.
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TheInvisibleDan
I think Goey's statement here bears worth repeating.
The fact of the matter is, I see merits in both sides of the discussion - as well as weaknesses.
This forum can be an invaluable venue to "test" out ideas.
When I propose a theory in these forums, I damn well would like to be aware any proposals concerning its perceived weaknesses. Such enables me to go back to the "drawing board", explore and further adjust or revise a theory, or perhaps even (as in some cases) ditch it altogether if need be.
My main objective for participating in these forums is not toward "agreement". Very few people have agreed with any or all of my views concerning my research in the subject of Marcion - and quite honestly, it really doesn't bother me. Nor do I think less of those who disagree. Nor do I think they're any less acute or spiritual than I. I didn't reach my own personal views overnight - which are admittedly hard to swallow. It would be unreasonable for me to expect that others should be so quick to agree with anything I propose.
There is much that can be gained from disagreements. In fact, even much more.
The fact of the matter is, "sleep" in 1 Thess. may indeed indicate "physical" death.
Or it may mean "spiritual" death. Or possibly a bit of both.
Or if we were to explore further, perhaps we might even discover - "neither of the above".
As I stated earlier, metaphorical interpretation may be just as fraught with difficulties as ultra-literal meanings. As scholars, - explorers - and human beings - we should remain open to all the possibilities.
But most importantly - we should endeavor to discuss these ideas openly, with respect toward one another, without flying off the handle, and taking doctrinal disagreements so damn personally.
As for my own personal opinion as to the interpretation of this section in 1 Thess. - the "jury is still out" with me. There's still many things about this section that I'm still considering, and/or that I still don't know. I still lean toward the "rapture" theory as has been taught in the past, by virtue of its "gnostic" character of "alienation" to "the world", through those expressions of desiring to depart from "this world" and to be in another. How did Bible believing Christians reach such a distinctive "gnostic' positions without betraying awareness of the subject of gnosticism. Unless, perchance, these scriptures are betraying gnostic elements that are already present within. I am personally gravitating toward the position that none of the Pauline literature that has come down to us predates the second century. But that's my opinion, and I don't expect others would agree, - and of course, I could be wrong -but I would be glad to share some thoughts on this if anyone is interested (another thread perhaps).
I hope everyone chills out, loosens up, and takes a moment to check out that link to that trippy "rapture" comic I posted earlier.
I predict bell-bottoms will come back into fashion.
Danny
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sirguessalot
well, Danny, one of the major distinctions i see going on here
is how some prefer to discuss interpretation of scripture from the research and accuracy point of view
and some prefer to express their experiences of scripture without all that pressure to be so correct
(and of course, some want to play in both modalities)
but if those who lean towards the research and accuracy modalities do not see the value of other modes
even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness and safety of other modes of discourse and interpretation
or suggesting that posters are unsound and conform or move to other venues because of it...
...i do reserve the right to stand up and shout a bit from time to time
and for specifically personal reasons
even to the point of casting doubts on the soundness of that behaviour
and rightfully so, imo
btw..love the comic
as well as your insight
and i must say that i do sincerely appreciate this remark you made, Goey:
because i think it really speaks to what i am saying hereand what i see my friend Clay saying and doing here
and what i am fighting for, and the distinctions i am trying to call attention to
peace to you
privately, of all the forms of hermeneutics, heuristics, semiotics, eisegesis, exegesis, contemplations, deconstruction, pesher techniques, narrative and meta-narrative paradigms...and yada yada what not,
i prefer an integral approach to art and literary criticism, particularly favoring a healthy blend of semiotics and post-structuralism
but i find trying to explain or keep track of all the many different modalities boring, tedious and quite the yawnathon at most cocktail parties
and so i stick to simple original poetic expressions of my spiritual experiences, lest i find myself having to defend someone other than myself
and i highly enjoy finding others who like to do the same
forgive for wishing outloud for other children to play with
and for a place where the adults will at least take their shoes off and sit on the floor if they insist on being there
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allan w.
"If all truth is relevant, there is relatively no truth"- VP (still stands me in good stead)
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TheInvisibleDan
Yes, I think I gather what you're saying here...I oft think some scholars get so caught in their various, impressive methodologies as to miss the actual substance of what they may have initially sought. If these methods are put in service to the heart, wonderful. If not, their efforts may amount toward masturbating other collegues' minds, and tragically serving little else.
There's a man who works at a local convenience store here, who's about to move to Hawaii to become a schoolteacher. And one thing he has stated to me a couple of times has stuck with me: if one wants to understand history and how people thought back then, consider how people think today.
Danny
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Oakspear
I find the approach that one needs some kind of special "inner" understanding to get something condescending. If you have a position that differs from the so-called accepted or mainstream thinking, present the basis, expound on the logic, geez, say something convincing.
On the other hand, if you don't agree with my opinion regarding how discussions should be carried out, feel free to ignore me, I don't get to set the guidelines of how everyone else has to behave, however, I do get to express my opinion. And I will probably still express it sarcastically from time to time.
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sirguessalot
but i can surely understand why you might
what if other levels of inner understanding only seem special
but are actually native (divine, inherent) human capacities we are simply unaware of?
but when we do become aware of them
yes, our understanding changes to some degree or other...perhaps even radically at times
curious...does it bother you because someone else says that their inner awareness has changed in some intense way that has effected their relationship to scripture?
and you don't think yours has?
or do you not think that there is such a thing as inner understanding in the first place?
i mean, do you not right now have an inside as well as an outside, both of which you can understand?
doesn't your own understanding have many layers and complex moving parts, both inside and outside?
and haven't you discovered more and more parts and pieces and ways of it as the years go by?
btw...truly sorry if it comes across condescending....just trying to help you see the actual ease of the notion
and i am trying to learn not to be afraid to do so
perhaps it helps see how it might apply to our inner awareness of the possible deathlike-states that already exist in us now
i think it really gets interesting when you get into deep dreamless sleep
which is the kind of stuff the ancients and scripture writers were very interested in as well
well said Danny...well saidstuck in conceptual wonderland of mental constructs
but lacking the will to actually embody what it is they think they see
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allan w.
As for me, as I have posted before I walk the walk the best way I can and over the years can PERSONALLY testify of signs, miracles, wonders (big and small). They have ALWAYS been an enhancement of the 'written Word' as I understand it. Never at cross purposes with it. Helping my wifes 8 year old niece instantaneously awaken out of a DEEP coma she had been induced in because of meningococal meningitis is 'spiritual' enough for me.
Unless you've got something similar to testify of Todd in your own 'spirit-filled' walk keep your self serving ramblings to yourself. And I'll bet 10 bucks to a hundred even if you are walking the ministering walk of CHRISTianity, for every carpark in front of a store story you've got , me and others I associate with have got half a dozen stories that would make you and Clay pee your pants with New Age envy.
I am a simple kind of a guy (and always hope to be) with 'flashes' of sublime vernacular expressions at time.
'Esotric ramblings of wuthering heights similitude' just don't do a lot for me..o.k.
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sirguessalot
omg...wow
ok, well...i'm truly glad for your wife's niece, allan
and for whatever other miracles and healings and signs you have experienced in your life
as for all the other stuff you said...i am kinda speechless as to how incredibly wrong you dont realize you are about me
you really are one mean ole willfully ignorant cuss, arent ya? and flaming proud of it...wow
and dang...i wouldnt dare share anything about my life with you...because even if you are dead wrong ....i would still always lose
you are obviously a scrapper...and love to fight dirty
thats cool, i grew up on the street
so...lemme ask, while weer at it...what it is that has got you so fixated on this thread?
that you cant stop posting your same ole opinion over and over again
i mean, if something does not do it for you (i.e. "esotericism"...whatever)...great!
...but who the heck cares but you, and those who care about you?
talk about self-serving?!?
by your own admission...your interests really do seem to be of primary concern here, no?
i mean, even scripturally....how do you justify this?
btw...you arent gonna stalk me around the gsc are ya?
cuz that would suck for both of us, i'm sure
ive seen you do it with others
and its kinda creepy
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