4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
KJV: Ro 4:17
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
KJV: Ro 4:19
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
KJV: Ro 4:24
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
KJV: Ro 5:15
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
KJV: Ro 6:2
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
KJV: Ro 6:4
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 6:7
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV: Ro 6:8
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
KJV: Ro 6:9
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
KJV: Ro 6:11
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV: Ro 6:13
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
KJV: Ro 7:2
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
KJV: Ro 7:3
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
KJV: Ro 7:4
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
KJV: Ro 7:8
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
KJV: Ro 8:10
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
KJV: Ro 8:11
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV: Ro 10:7
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
KJV: Ro 10:9
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV: Ro 11:15
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV: Ro 14:9
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
KJV: 1 Co 7:39
39The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
KJV: 1 Co 15:12
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
KJV: 1 Co 15:13
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
KJV: 1 Co 15:15
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
KJV: 1 Co 15:16
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
KJV: 1 Co 15:20
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV: 1 Co 15:21
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
KJV: 1 Co 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
KJV: 1 Co 15:32
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
KJV: 1 Co 15:35
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
KJV: 1 Co 15:42
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
KJV: 1 Co 15:52
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV: 2 Co 1:9
9But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
KJV: 2 Co 5:14
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
KJV: Ga 1:1
Galatians
Chapter 1
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
KJV: Ga 2:19
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
KJV: Ga 2:21
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
KJV: Eph 1:20
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV: Eph 2:1
Chapter 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
KJV: Eph 2:5
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
KJV: Eph 5:14
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
KJV: Php 3:11
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
KJV: Col 1:18
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV: Col 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
KJV: Col 2:13
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
KJV: Col 2:20
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
KJV: Col 3:3
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
KJV: 1 Th 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV: 1 Th 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV: 1 Ti 5:6
6But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
KJV: 2 Ti 2:8
8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
KJV: 2 Ti 2:11
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
KJV: 2 Ti 4:1
Chapter 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Wow, Clay. It's been a very long time since I have read any Bible verses. You just gave me a whole new perspective that I will enjoy chewing on for a while. I have no idea if what I saw is what you see - bit it is really cool nonetheless. :D
These passages in I Thess. 4 certainly offer an array of interpretive challenges.
Any fresh food for thought such as you have offered here are certainly good to consider.
I'm also glad that you posted.
May those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those not physically dead?
To a great degree, many Christians do already believe this, if those who have
shed their mortal coils are thought to already be in heaven with Christ.
On the other hand, - if referring to Christians still "physically" alive - I'm trying to grasp the
distinction between those "sleeping in Christ" and "those of us which are alive and remain" within
the context of your proposal.
Might those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those who became Christians, and never went any further with
that spark of new life within? Given the metaphorical meaning ascribed to "sleep", "slumber", "drunkedness" and the like in both Christian and Gnostic thought, I suppose it's possible.
Hans Jonas, in "The Gnostic Religion", gives attention to the gnostic motif of 'Numbness, Sleep, Intoxication" (p.68):
"While earthly existence is on the one hand...characterized by the feelings of forelorness, dread, nostalgia, it is on the other hand described also as "numbness," "sleep," "drunkedness," and "oblivion": that is to say, it has assumed...all the characteritics which a former time ascribed to the state of the dead in the underworld. Indeed, we shall find in gnostic thought the world takes the place of the traditional underworld and is itself the realm of the dead, that is, of those who have to be raised to life again."
Jonas also quotes from "The Hymn of the Pearl" contained in the "Acts of Thomas" (which can probably be located online somewhere):
"They mixed me drink with their cunning and gave me to taste of their meat. I forgot that I was the King's son, and served their king. I forgot the Pearl for which my parents had sent me. Through the heaviness of their nourishment I sank into deep slumber."
The entire "Hymn of the Pearl" is breathtakingly beautiful.
Taking physical death out of the equation will open it up I believe.
And this certainly isn't the last word on the subject for me.
dead in Christ-yeah those who have "received" yet do nothing. Dead works and all that. Like James talks about. And other places.
KJV: Ro 6:4
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
sleep in Jesus-those who haven't yet "tasted" or eaten of the manna from heaven
Revelations 2:17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Since Jesus would be the mediater between God and men.
and btw all have the spirit i believe, it's a matter of opening the eyes to it
---
And then we have this little morsel of manna..
"those of us which are alive and remain"
Will join both groups stated as they wake up.
And as it it says "in the air", which is where the Spirit lives.
Thus our caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Our gathering together as it claims here.
2 Thessolonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Certainly more to be absorbed into our understanding and spirit and wisdom....
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
those which are alive and remain might be those who are alive in Christ
as opposed to doing nothing which leads to going against Christ which is anti Christ
cuz i think you have to know Christ a bit to be against him
to be anti anything one would have to know what they are against
The only thing I ask is if the "dead in Christ" could be living but 'dead to a relationship with Him" then why do they get raised first?
Still pondering..............
bliss
also this phrase-
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
those which are alive and remain might be those who are alive in Christ
as opposed to doing nothing which leads to going against Christ which is anti Christ
cuz i think you have to know Christ a bit to be against him
to be anti anything one would have to know what they are against
oops, i meant the other verse where we He will "bring with him". That I never understood.
The only thing I ask is if the "dead in Christ" could be living but 'dead to a relationship with Him" then why do they get raised first?
Still pondering..............
bliss
oops, i meant the other verse where we He will "bring with him". That I never understood.
to be "caught up" would be quite an experience. Someone experiecing it for the first time would go thru some stuff i would think. Then we would meet them. A personal experience to all. To stay "caught up" would be like in the spirit i would think. Doubt if many could handle it for a sustained period of time
God will bring all with him i believe. Noone would be left out. So I don't think this is just about a one time event. But happening a lot here and now.
More thoughts are needed from more people and i could stand to reflect on it a while too.
except that the asleep (dead) in Christ mentioned in Thessalonians also 'ties in' with majority of scriptures in O/T and N/T concerning the 'mortality' of the soul. Which also 'ties in' with the fact that no-one hears from the dead in this life, whether that dead soul was a saint or sinner.
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I don't believe this is talking about people who are dead physically necessarily.
I think scripture can have more than one level of meaning .....For example:
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
I think this applies just as much if not more to the spiritually "blind" as it does to the physically blind. Same with the lame and deaf. Lepers were "untouchable" as the Gentiles were to the Jews.
While physical healing is most certainly good, isn't the spiritual of a higher order ? Does one have to preclude the other? Can we have both? What I am suggesting is that one level is not mutually exclusive of the other. Both can be true.
However, we must be careful not to read something into scrpiture that is not there. Neither should be force a meaning that is not there. In other words all scripture is not necessary layered with meanings.
In regards to 1 Thessalonians I am not so sure that death refers to anything but physical death. I would need more than a list of scriptures and speculation to seriously entertain the possibility that 1 Thes is not refering to physical death. I see nothing in the context or a natural reading to suggest otherwise.
Consider 1 Thessalonians 4:14
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
In this verse Jesus' death and ressurection clearly corelate [even so] with "sleep" and "God bring with Him". If I am to entertain the possibililty that "sleep" and "God bring with him" in this section of scripture does not refer to the death and resurection of the physical body, then I must also entertain the possibility that Jesus did not suffer a physical death or ressurection.
To me it seems clear that 1 Thessalonians 4 is refering to "at least" to a physical death and resurection. If there is another layer there, I don't see it.
Seeing how these words are written to those who passed from death to life, it would not make since to address the issue of physical death. In the manner as sleep and death are addressed as does Thessolonians...1 and 2 btw,,,as you know..it does have a new life to it.
Here some of the mystery is revealed to those willing to see a perspective that can be seen by those not entrenched in literalism and twi thinking.
Of course I am one of those who was entrenched and trapped in such a manner.
Not anymore. Or perhaps some of it hangs on like a bad dream. Filtering into some of what I say and do. Working on the new and letting the old die.
OK. You've got two groups of people. Which group would you like to be a part of?
The first group: "The Dead in Christ" (Sounds like a horror flick)
Spiritually this would mean - aware of Christ, but being a lazy butt
Physically this would mean - blood and guts, skeletons, or just dust
And the second group: "Those which are alive"
Spiritually this would mean - aware of Christ and acting like it
Physically this would mean - breathing, eating, dancing, skiing
So which group would you prefer? Skeletons are ugly. Skiing is fun. But if you're alive when Christ comes, then you gotta watch the skeletons, etc, "rise first" !! Yuk !! That's not fair !! And for this reason, if it's physical, I'd rather be in the Dead group. (With Jerry Garcia?)
Now, if this is instead a spiritual reference, hmmmmm. Well, being a lazy butt is nice on a rainy day, or after a big meal. And being a real Christian, an active Christian (which is an everyday thing), is nice too. So if it's spiritual, I'd prefer to be an active genuine Christian. So I would choose the "Those which are alive" group ... which I think is the group we're supposed to choose, which leads me to believe this section of the Word is to be understood in a spiritual sense.
In regards to 1 Thessalonians I am not so sure that death refers to anything but physical death. I would need more than a list of scriptures and speculation to seriously entertain the possibility that 1 Thes is not refering to physical death. I see nothing in the context or a natural reading to suggest otherwise.
I was also initially apprehensive to the possibility, but in the context, 1 Thess. 5 might be considered in view of Clay's proposal:
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
Of course, we may be seeing a mixed application of metaphors here. But it's all very interesting.
We mustn't overlook the fact also that one primary point of controversy among early Christian movements was the interpretation of a physical resurrection vs. a spiritual resurrection.
In view of that, it's a question in my mind as to whether or not we in fact have before us in 1 Thess.4/ 1 Cor.15 a faithful representation of these passages in their earliest (or alternate, if you will) form.
Why not go back to near and remote context, what it is NOT saying, scripture build-up etc...?? These are after all 'good' keys to the words' interpretation ( if one believes the authority of the written Word ) ?? If however, one does not, may I ask, "why bother discussing it in the first place" ??
Seeing how these words are written to those who passed from death to life, it would not make since to address the issue of physical death. In the manner as sleep and death are addressed as does Thessolonians...1 and 2 btw,,,as you know..it does have a new life to it.
It would certainly make sense to address physical death in the context of a relatively new christian church established withing a pagan community that basically did did not believe in life after physical death (others that have no hope). It would make perfect sense to address physical death if the church there at Thessalonica was grieving over brothers or sisters that had physically died. (Wherefore comfort one another with these words.)
Here some of the mystery is revealed to those willing to see a perspective that can be seen by those not entrenched in literalism and twi thinking.
Clay, it is debatable if your interpretation reveals a "mystery". One does not have to be "entrenched in literalism and TWI thinking" to interpret of 1 Thessalonians in terms of physical death. I fail to see the profit in this apparant jab and unnecessary labeling of those who might take issue with your opinion.
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Hi CM...what kind of 'dead' do you think it's talking about ?
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CM
KJV: Ro 1:4
4And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
KJV: Ro 4:17
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
KJV: Ro 4:19
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
KJV: Ro 4:24
24But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
KJV: Ro 5:15
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
KJV: Ro 6:2
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
KJV: Ro 6:4
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 6:7
7For he that is dead is freed from sin.
KJV: Ro 6:8
8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
KJV: Ro 6:9
9Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
KJV: Ro 6:11
11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
KJV: Ro 6:13
13Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
KJV: Ro 7:2
2For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
KJV: Ro 7:3
3So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
KJV: Ro 7:4
4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
KJV: Ro 7:8
8But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
KJV: Ro 8:10
10And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
KJV: Ro 8:11
11But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
KJV: Ro 10:7
7Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
KJV: Ro 10:9
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
KJV: Ro 11:15
15For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
KJV: Ro 14:9
9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
KJV: 1 Co 7:39
39The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth; but if her husband be dead, she is at liberty to be married to whom she will; only in the Lord.
KJV: 1 Co 15:12
12Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
KJV: 1 Co 15:13
13But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
KJV: 1 Co 15:15
15Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
KJV: 1 Co 15:16
16For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
KJV: 1 Co 15:20
20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
KJV: 1 Co 15:21
21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
KJV: 1 Co 15:29
29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
KJV: 1 Co 15:32
32If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.
KJV: 1 Co 15:35
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
KJV: 1 Co 15:42
42So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
KJV: 1 Co 15:52
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
KJV: 2 Co 1:9
9But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
KJV: 2 Co 5:14
14For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:
KJV: Ga 1:1
Galatians
Chapter 1
1Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
KJV: Ga 2:19
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
KJV: Ga 2:21
21I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
KJV: Eph 1:20
20Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
KJV: Eph 2:1
Chapter 2
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
KJV: Eph 2:5
5Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
KJV: Eph 5:14
14Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
KJV: Php 3:11
11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
KJV: Col 1:18
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
KJV: Col 2:12
12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
KJV: Col 2:13
13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
KJV: Col 2:20
20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
KJV: Col 3:3
3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
KJV: 1 Th 1:10
10And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
KJV: 1 Th 4:16
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
KJV: 1 Ti 5:6
6But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth.
KJV: 2 Ti 2:8
8Remember that Jesus Christ of the seed of David was raised from the dead according to my gospel:
KJV: 2 Ti 2:11
11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
KJV: 2 Ti 4:1
Chapter 4
1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
besides the word "die"
take your pick
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CM
KJV: Ro 13:11
11And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
KJV: 1 Co 11:30
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
KJV: 1 Co 15:51
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
KJV: 1 Th 4:14
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
KJV: 1 Th 5:6
6Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV: 1 Th 5:7
7For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
KJV: 1 Th 5:10
10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
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Abigail
Wow, Clay. It's been a very long time since I have read any Bible verses. You just gave me a whole new perspective that I will enjoy chewing on for a while. I have no idea if what I saw is what you see - bit it is really cool nonetheless. :D
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CM
Amen Abi...
new minds...new hearts...
new perspectives!!!!
REAL COMFORT!!!!
God's never left us...NEVER HAS!
:) :) :)
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bliss
Thanks Clay! :)
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CM
Thank You bliss,
I wasn't sure if anyone would see it.
I hesitated to post it, but glad I did.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Clay
God loves you my dear friend
You should all ways post what you see because some will all ways see what you are saying
Things people forget to look at with God time means nothing
others things to think about if we have been quicken we can never be called dead in Christ
If Christ was the first to raised from the dead then there most of been others because "was" is a past tensed word
What is the "last trump" the last fleshly sound we make our last breath or something elst
Why is "incorruption" and "immortality" the same word
I believe you are seeing something I just put this here to help others see what you are saying and with hopes you may see more
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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TheInvisibleDan
Clay,
These passages in I Thess. 4 certainly offer an array of interpretive challenges.
Any fresh food for thought such as you have offered here are certainly good to consider.
I'm also glad that you posted.
May those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those not physically dead?
To a great degree, many Christians do already believe this, if those who have
shed their mortal coils are thought to already be in heaven with Christ.
On the other hand, - if referring to Christians still "physically" alive - I'm trying to grasp the
distinction between those "sleeping in Christ" and "those of us which are alive and remain" within
the context of your proposal.
Might those "sleeping in Christ" refer to those who became Christians, and never went any further with
that spark of new life within? Given the metaphorical meaning ascribed to "sleep", "slumber", "drunkedness" and the like in both Christian and Gnostic thought, I suppose it's possible.
Hans Jonas, in "The Gnostic Religion", gives attention to the gnostic motif of 'Numbness, Sleep, Intoxication" (p.68):
"While earthly existence is on the one hand...characterized by the feelings of forelorness, dread, nostalgia, it is on the other hand described also as "numbness," "sleep," "drunkedness," and "oblivion": that is to say, it has assumed...all the characteritics which a former time ascribed to the state of the dead in the underworld. Indeed, we shall find in gnostic thought the world takes the place of the traditional underworld and is itself the realm of the dead, that is, of those who have to be raised to life again."
Jonas also quotes from "The Hymn of the Pearl" contained in the "Acts of Thomas" (which can probably be located online somewhere):
"They mixed me drink with their cunning and gave me to taste of their meat. I forgot that I was the King's son, and served their king. I forgot the Pearl for which my parents had sent me. Through the heaviness of their nourishment I sank into deep slumber."
The entire "Hymn of the Pearl" is breathtakingly beautiful.
Interesting thoughts, Clay.
Danny
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CM
More interesting thoughts Danny,
Taking physical death out of the equation will open it up I believe.
And this certainly isn't the last word on the subject for me.
dead in Christ-yeah those who have "received" yet do nothing. Dead works and all that. Like James talks about. And other places.
KJV: Ro 6:4
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
KJV: Ro 7:6
6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
sleep in Jesus-those who haven't yet "tasted" or eaten of the manna from heaven
Revelations 2:17He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
Since Jesus would be the mediater between God and men.
and btw all have the spirit i believe, it's a matter of opening the eyes to it
---
And then we have this little morsel of manna..
"those of us which are alive and remain"
Will join both groups stated as they wake up.
And as it it says "in the air", which is where the Spirit lives.
Thus our caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Our gathering together as it claims here.
2 Thessolonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Certainly more to be absorbed into our understanding and spirit and wisdom....
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CM
also this phrase-
and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord
those which are alive and remain might be those who are alive in Christ
as opposed to doing nothing which leads to going against Christ which is anti Christ
cuz i think you have to know Christ a bit to be against him
to be anti anything one would have to know what they are against
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CM
even with physical death included we have this
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Belle
Very interesting indeed! Thanks, Clay!! And thanks, Dan. I love it when you teach bits and pieces of your Gnostic wisdom. :)
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bliss
Ya Clay,
I never quite understood this verse.
The only thing I ask is if the "dead in Christ" could be living but 'dead to a relationship with Him" then why do they get raised first?
Still pondering..............
bliss
oops, i meant the other verse where we He will "bring with him". That I never understood.
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CM
to be "caught up" would be quite an experience. Someone experiecing it for the first time would go thru some stuff i would think. Then we would meet them. A personal experience to all. To stay "caught up" would be like in the spirit i would think. Doubt if many could handle it for a sustained period of time
God will bring all with him i believe. Noone would be left out. So I don't think this is just about a one time event. But happening a lot here and now.
More thoughts are needed from more people and i could stand to reflect on it a while too.
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allan w.
except that the asleep (dead) in Christ mentioned in Thessalonians also 'ties in' with majority of scriptures in O/T and N/T concerning the 'mortality' of the soul. Which also 'ties in' with the fact that no-one hears from the dead in this life, whether that dead soul was a saint or sinner.
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CM
allan,
you are still thinking physical death
I'm not.
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Goey
I think scripture can have more than one level of meaning .....For example:
Mat 11:5 The blind receive their sight, and the lame walk, the lepers are cleansed, and the deaf hear, the dead are raised up, and the poor have the gospel preached to them.
I think this applies just as much if not more to the spiritually "blind" as it does to the physically blind. Same with the lame and deaf. Lepers were "untouchable" as the Gentiles were to the Jews.
While physical healing is most certainly good, isn't the spiritual of a higher order ? Does one have to preclude the other? Can we have both? What I am suggesting is that one level is not mutually exclusive of the other. Both can be true.
However, we must be careful not to read something into scrpiture that is not there. Neither should be force a meaning that is not there. In other words all scripture is not necessary layered with meanings.
In regards to 1 Thessalonians I am not so sure that death refers to anything but physical death. I would need more than a list of scriptures and speculation to seriously entertain the possibility that 1 Thes is not refering to physical death. I see nothing in the context or a natural reading to suggest otherwise.
Consider 1 Thessalonians 4:14
In this verse Jesus' death and ressurection clearly corelate [even so] with "sleep" and "God bring with Him". If I am to entertain the possibililty that "sleep" and "God bring with him" in this section of scripture does not refer to the death and resurection of the physical body, then I must also entertain the possibility that Jesus did not suffer a physical death or ressurection.
To me it seems clear that 1 Thessalonians 4 is refering to "at least" to a physical death and resurection. If there is another layer there, I don't see it.
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sirguessalot
sometimes i wonder if "death" is a euphemism for "spiritual sleep" rather than the other way around
as if being asleep to spirit is a more harsh reality than being dead to it
that the spirit is missing and must be found seems easier to swallow...easier to claim...easier to avoid
...than it being already always being within me and around me...and I simply havent woke up to it yet
Ro 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Eph 5:14
Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.
it seems as if there is a deep shame tied to this...tracing all the way back to eden
i mean, who can bring themselves to admit that such a thing is possible?
perhaps this is the kind of foolishness that God enjoys...the admission of our own
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CM
thanks Todd,
Seeing how these words are written to those who passed from death to life, it would not make since to address the issue of physical death. In the manner as sleep and death are addressed as does Thessolonians...1 and 2 btw,,,as you know..it does have a new life to it.
Here some of the mystery is revealed to those willing to see a perspective that can be seen by those not entrenched in literalism and twi thinking.
Of course I am one of those who was entrenched and trapped in such a manner.
Not anymore. Or perhaps some of it hangs on like a bad dream. Filtering into some of what I say and do. Working on the new and letting the old die.
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Xena
OK. You've got two groups of people. Which group would you like to be a part of?
The first group: "The Dead in Christ" (Sounds like a horror flick)
Spiritually this would mean - aware of Christ, but being a lazy butt
Physically this would mean - blood and guts, skeletons, or just dust
And the second group: "Those which are alive"
Spiritually this would mean - aware of Christ and acting like it
Physically this would mean - breathing, eating, dancing, skiing
So which group would you prefer? Skeletons are ugly. Skiing is fun. But if you're alive when Christ comes, then you gotta watch the skeletons, etc, "rise first" !! Yuk !! That's not fair !! And for this reason, if it's physical, I'd rather be in the Dead group. (With Jerry Garcia?)
Now, if this is instead a spiritual reference, hmmmmm. Well, being a lazy butt is nice on a rainy day, or after a big meal. And being a real Christian, an active Christian (which is an everyday thing), is nice too. So if it's spiritual, I'd prefer to be an active genuine Christian. So I would choose the "Those which are alive" group ... which I think is the group we're supposed to choose, which leads me to believe this section of the Word is to be understood in a spiritual sense.
Wacky reasoning? Hey, it works for me! -X
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TheInvisibleDan
I was also initially apprehensive to the possibility, but in the context, 1 Thess. 5 might be considered in view of Clay's proposal:
Of course, we may be seeing a mixed application of metaphors here. But it's all very interesting.
We mustn't overlook the fact also that one primary point of controversy among early Christian movements was the interpretation of a physical resurrection vs. a spiritual resurrection.
In view of that, it's a question in my mind as to whether or not we in fact have before us in 1 Thess.4/ 1 Cor.15 a faithful representation of these passages in their earliest (or alternate, if you will) form.
Danny
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allan w.
Why not go back to near and remote context, what it is NOT saying, scripture build-up etc...?? These are after all 'good' keys to the words' interpretation ( if one believes the authority of the written Word ) ?? If however, one does not, may I ask, "why bother discussing it in the first place" ??
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Goey
Clay, it is debatable if your interpretation reveals a "mystery". One does not have to be "entrenched in literalism and TWI thinking" to interpret of 1 Thessalonians in terms of physical death. I fail to see the profit in this apparant jab and unnecessary labeling of those who might take issue with your opinion.
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