Welcome to the cafe Mr. Pipes! And congratulations on your new found freedom. We didn't send any letter to the pres of twi when we left, but the few things we did point out as reasons to leave were knocked down as being not true by our region corpse. I think any corpse still left in twi -with maybe the exception of some of the newly graduated ones that have no presence that I am aware of at the spot--don't really think that any change is needed. (They think it has already happened.) They have been lulled to sleep by all the legalism and standards forced upon them. They are so busy they don't have time to think about some of the problems if they even see any of them.
"well, maybe one day your concerns will be addressed"
LOL! Bliss, that's basically what they told me, too. Dottie said that she felt like I would come to see the TWI that we all loved and remembered. She doesn't realize there was never a TWI that I loved and remembered....AND....that because they are just jumping through the hoops to keep the money rolling into their bank account, they aren't going to be able to make any changes, much less waves.
I wonder now, if they regret encouraging Brian to go WC. Think about it, he's got a college degree he's done absolutely nothing with. Is he going to have to continue selling his soul to Rosie and company to make a living? WC who've had to move from full time TWIt pay to "the real world" have had a very tough time of it.
Shortfuse, I really think there never was anything good about TWI in and of itself. I think there were some wonderful God loving people who really did want to help others at one time, but all those folks have been kicked to the curb or lobotomized and now there's nothing left but stolen works that have been twisted and perverted to suit the desires of those who are living high on the hog. It's nothing but a sand castle.....and an ugly one at that. There's nothing left to save and, as Oakspear said, there's LOTS and LOTS of options out there - even the offshoots are doing a better job of being the TWI that people once loved....why even try to save TWI at this point?
Remember Rosie is the instigator and director of all things micro-management that folks in TWI have come to be comfortable with. ;)
Mr. Pipes!!! Welcome!!!! I think we'd all love to read your letter and hear the responses when you're ready. I think it's very telling that you never got a reply in writing.....they know they're so full of b.s. that they're afraid to put anything in writing any more....and especially not anything that wasn't priorly approved by the fox herself.
Thank you GSC'ers for your welcome and kind words. You have been a real help to my wife, the lovely I Love Bagpipes, and me. The Mrs. has patiently retyped the letter I sent to Rev. Rivenbark.
Understand I was still attending TWI fellowships when this was written (at work without any reference info available). I was scheduled to teach a SMF the Sunday after this letter was dated. As surprised as you may be (and I was), I still taught; even though copies were sent to the HFC, BC, and LC/RC as well. No one forbade me the chance to teach. The LC/RC met with me on the 19th to discuss points in this letter after he talked with HQ. Subsequent to that meeting, he has offered on two separate occasions to have a follow up visit to "work the word" together on these points. All communciation has been verbal and I have not been made Mark & Avoid, though I expected it. Hence it is a kinder and gentler TWI.
Following the letter are some of the responses from the LC/RC. However, the bottom line appears to be there will not be any doctrinal changes at TWI without a huge amount of research by a lot of people.
Begin letter:
March 13, 2006
Dear Rev. Rivenbark,
God bless you abundantly in the name of Jesus Christ. I remember part of the prophecy from your installation as Vice-President was "..to heal the stripes of the adversary...". You have taken positive steps since becoming President to begin the healing process, including: (1) stopping the abuse of the "mark and avoid" practice, (2) redirecting the STS teachings to be positive and absent from verbal attacks on any who don't buy into the teaching 100%, and (3) beginning the recognition certificates for faithfulness to the Way International (TWI for short) for both HFC's and believers. The atmosphere within TWI has changed from "you're either with me or against me; there is no middle ground" to a much more tender and welcoming "good to see you and how are you?"
However there are some major issues left over from Rev. Martindale's administration that need to be corrected. The practices (or doctrines) below are at least some of the most significant obstacles to growth and outreach within TWI.
I. Money. The love of it is the root of all evil. However, the management of an individual's money is only between him, God, his/her family, and whomever payments for goods or services are due. The "no debt doctrine" absolutely cannot be documented from the rightly divided Word, and the proof of the error is in the financial hurt caused to most who adhere to it. In the 10 plus years since it became the standard for the Corps, HFC's, and AC students, those who sold homes and began renting have lost both the equity increase from mortgage reductions and property value appreciation. Some folks have suffered losses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not a senses-based argument, but a factual-based observation of the impact of practicing wrong doctrine. It is pouring water into a "broken cistern that can hold no water." It is absolutely the individual's responsibility to mange their affairs and not become caught up in the "keeping up with the Jones'" or obtaining more things tha they need and can steward. Continuing this no debt standard will lead to more people deciding the cost of compliance is greater than the benefit associated with it.
The second point in this topic is tithing and abundant sharing. The tithe was a Law Adminstration law. In the Patriarchal Administration sacrifices were offered, but the only tithe record is of the singular event of Abraham AFTER the king of Salem (or mayor in our day) gave food and drink to him and his men. The tithe was to support the tribe of Levi. There are no records of tithing in Acts. Absolutely, we are instructed to give to the movement of the Word and support ministers who are worthy of double honor. Those examples are recorded in Acts and the Epistles. In the Old Testament, Levi would have made up about 1/12 of the population; therefore a 10th from the remaining 11 tribes would have provided the priests with equal financial status as their brethren and provided enough for the sacrifices as well.
Tithing is an involved topic, but to teach it is a necessary part of operating the revelation and impartation manifestations is to deny the accomplishments of Jesus Christ and to replace them with the works of the flesh to please God. Tithing is a work of the flesh, while revelation and impartation manifestations are spiritual. God does instruct us to give as we purpose in our hearts to move the Word, but He does not require the tithe to bless us, protect us, or give us access to revelation and operation of the impartation manifestations.
II. Management. In the expansion days of TWI, the household fellowships were to be self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing. The self-governing has been replaced by management from Ways Corps following Board of Directors' plans. Local fellowships must submit a calendar to their branch coordinator for approval. (I have no idea what happens once the branch coordinators receive them.) The teaching topics are managed by the overemphasis on the STS and Way Magazine articles. Didn't the teachers do a good enough job the first time? Are the HFC's (who are debt free AC grads) incapable of planning a simple fellowship calendar and knowing what their people need to hear? This calendar and topic managment is absolutely no different than the Southern Baptist Sunday Schools using "quarterlies" to teach their followers. It is an insult to the capabilities of any HFC. If they cannot plan and don't know what needs to be taught, they aren't spiritual enough to oversee a fellowship.
III. Ministering. Since the last Rock of Ages there has not been a summer event open to anyone and everyone to come see the big-picture perspective of TWI. Since the last Word in Business there has not been a national or international conference for anyone other than AC students and grads. Since before the last Rock of Ages no one from the Board of Directors has taught an open fellowship on the field (other than Gunnison) - at least to the best of my knowledge. This isolation of leadership at HQ is: (1) contrary to the pattern established in Acts by Peter and Paul and the other apostles and noted in The New Dynamic Church, and (2) sets up the region visits to HQ as a pilgrimage; something not noted nor established in Acts or Epistles. "Come and see" is not a command for us, but "Go, tell" is a command for us. You and others should travel to teach. Otherwise coupled with the larger issues, TWI will become pockets of followers isolated from their leaders and incapable of sustaining outreach or having any greater impact or meaning than has already been achieved.
My HFC is _________. _______ are the branch coordinators and _________the limb and region coordinators. These people are bright, motivated, love God, and are committed to TWI. I love and respect each of them. They need your help by breaking the bonds that thwart their outreach efforts. They plan events and witness to folks and get some to attend fellowships for a while, but none seem to stick. The question is why. The answer is not them; they are kind and loving. But the answer is what they have to offer is limited. The issues mentioned above are a few of the limitations place on them and other field leadership within TWI. Other ministries are growing, but TWI is shrinking (or if its "membership" is staying about level, it is due to children of Way believers coming of "class" age and not because others are being "won to the ministry").
Other ministries offer Biblical research and classes comparable (do I dare say better than?) TWI and do not put bonds onto their followers and leaders. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, few followers of TWI are blessed with it. Most tolerate it thinking "there is nothing else better available," all the while hoping things within TWI will change. I do not know how many, if any, such letters have been sent to you. My goal is to offer an outsider's perspective to dramatically improve the funcitoning of TWI "on the field."
Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word.
You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in.
Love in Christ,
End letter
Verbal responses/feedback:
1. The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine
2. Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching. (Well, maybe; I have not been an HFC for three years. Sure seems to be a locked-in situation, though).
3. As for giving $ to manifest spiritual power, LC/RC said he's never taught $10 of ABS = $10 of revelation.
(From him that is true, but the new foundational class syllabus includes LCM's articles on "The Tithe Doth Still Supply" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing". So TWI standard doctrine hasn't changed though the LC/RC doesn't seem to agree with it).
4. The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision.
5. TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI.
I do want to emphasize my treatment from TWI since this letter has been cordial. However, there has been no communication from anyone other than the LC/RC since March 19th. I have not attended a meeting since then. Never a word directly from Rev. R.
You guys and gals are smart folks. You can draw your own conclusions.
BTW I do not plan to post often, mainly due to time constraints. But I do enjoy browsing the wit and insight many of you share.
Those of you who are in and still lurking ... be aware that Rosa-lie and the BoD care not one whit about whether the doctrine is pure or impure. They care about the money you give and those of us who were in for years gave ... which Rosalie and Donna (and her children) now live off of comfortably ... with nice shopping trips and vacations and the like ... while you live without a house of your own and a decent car, etc. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU or about God ... do not believe the women behind the curtain!
Allow me to also welcome you to this interesting discussion forum. It, and it's predecessors, have provided some real eye-openers.
I appreciate the points you made in your letter. They were pertinent and well thought out. I am disappointed, although not surprised, at the responses you received. Since you directed the letter to Rosalie Rivenbark, you should have at least received a form letter thanking you for writing, and telling you your Limb/Region Co-ordinator would contact you to discuss this more fully. Then again, they may not wish to commit to written responses (especially about the "no debt" mandate) which could be held against them at a later date.
It may also speak to the disconnect TWI Directors feel with the "little people" that they don't address these concerns themselves. Even with the rationale of "the L/R Coordinator knows this person, and can address the 'real' reason they're bringing this stuff up", you didn't write the L/R Coordinator. You took the time, effort, and concern needed to put your thoughts and issues in writing and sent it to the person most responsible for Way policies and procedures. You should have gotten at least a token response from her or the Board of Directors. I mean, jeez, they can't be that busy!
I was interested in some of the responses:
The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine
No reason or justification. Not even a presentation of the benefits of that policy. "It is because we say so, and that's that."
Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching.
As long as you don't discover and teach things not supported by the Way International.
I once had the pleasure of attending a teaching by the parents of someone in our fellowship. The parents had taken the Power for Abundant Living class in the early to middle 1960s. As I had not met many PFAL grads from this era, I was interested in their perspective. What followed was definitely not within the Way orthodoxy. Among the points I remember most was the assertion that Jesus and his family must have visited Europe (specifically England) during the years of his youth not spoken of in the bible. I said in my Waybrainedness, "Man that's so off! And these are PFAL grads?!" I understand now they had "worked the Word" and other materials for themselves, and had come to markedly different conclusions than Mr. Wierwille had.
And they had been able to do this because at that time, Mr. Wierwille and company did not and could not have had the kind of "like-mindedness" control over these people that came to be the hallmark of TWI in later years. "No debt" or similar edicts would have been met with, "Who the hell do you think YOU are?! All I did was take your bible class! I don't owe YOU anything! Good-bye!"
The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision.
I had not heard the gang infiltration reason before. (I'm not saying there wasn't; I don't know) Has anyone else on Greasespot heard this one?
TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI.
I'm surprised to hear the more or less official acknowledgement of the "splinter" groups from an official "representative." And how is TWI expanding? Not in numbers of adherents. Not in name recognition or influence (99% of the people I know have never heard of the Way). Not in physical acquisitions - most of their properties have been sold off.
Again, thank you for posting the letter and the responses. Your letter may not have gotten a response from the BOD because it hits them where they live.
It also occurs to me that the way the L/R co-ordinator responded may indicate they have their own doubts about Way policy.
Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word.
You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in.
Thanks for sharing your letter and responses, Mr.Pipes - my favorite part is the above quote - courageous and insightful!!!!
I suspect that you didn't not receive any reply from Rosie in writing because it would have been the same b.s. John Richeson got from his equally concerned, logical and caring letter. Your care and concern for the TWI that you came to know an love and the people involved comes through loud and clear. You seem, like John, to not want to leave TWI, but could no longer, in good conscience, stay with things the way they are.
Hopefully your letter stirred up some thoughts, doubts and concerns with those who read your letter and had to come up with justifications and rationalizations along "the company line" to bring to you. One can only ignore all the problems with TWI just so long. One who still has a glint of light in their life anyway. I'm afraid the fox's heart is too much of a black hole to be reached with the light of God or the light of logic. I pray the others who have read your letter are not so sold out and so dependent on the TWIt paycheck to ignore the very rational, real and logical points addressed in your letter.
Obviously the Giles and the Moneyhands would rather garner the pseudo-respect, money and other perceived benefits of towing the company line than to actually do what is right. Hopefully your leadership is different.
Thank you and your lovely wife for taking the time to post this for us. IMO, it just shows that they really haven't and really don't want to change. Furthermore, that they are too scared to put anything in writing anymore because they know they're wrong and that it will/can/should come back to bite them on the foot.
They may stand by their "No Debt Policy" now, but they will fall by it sometime in the future. Imagine the collective knashing of teeth that will occur once their aging followership realizes that they have no net worth to cushion their "golden years", that they are STILL paying rent (at higher and higher costs for less and less square footage), when they should own their home own their home outright by now. But the kids will rebel. They are too smart to follow their parent's example, especially the ones who are college educated. They will obtain mortgages and buy homes because sheer logic compels it. But most will have drifted away from TWI by then. They are already leaving. Surely Rosie and the BOD can see that.
It IS good to see you! I hope things are well with you.
On the news this morning they were saying that the 20-somethings these days are the most educated generation we've had in the US. Those kids aren't stupid. Once they get out into the "real world" - provided they GET out into the "real world", they'll see how illogical TWIt doctrines are and how wonderful life can be and is outside the walls of TWIt-dom.
It's those who are raised in TWI, who will go WD, then WC and then on staff or some other TWIt capacity, who are going to suffer the most. Look at Moneyhand's kid. He's on staff with TWI, has a wife and kids and has never worked a "real job" a day in his life. When TWI falls or when he sees his parents get screwed royally by Rosie and company, he's going to be in for a rude awakening and not much he can do about it, but keep on kissing Rosie's arse or face living way below the standard lifestyle he's accustomed to.
Look at Moneyhand's kid. He's on staff with TWI, has a wife and kids and has never worked a "real job" a day in his life. When TWI falls or when he sees his parents get screwed royally by Rosie and company, he's going to be in for a rude awakening and not much he can do about it, but keep on kissing Rosie's arse or face living way below the standard lifestyle he's accustomed to.
Safari...I was wondering what was so "off" about the comment about Brian Moneyhands myself ... and the only thing I can think of is that he may be in a position to inherit some money from his grandparents (Dottie's parents) that might be substantial ... but that, in my humble opinion, may be very unlikely because she has a disabled sister (injured in a car accident as a teen) who has required/requires large sums of money for medical care, and she also has another sister, who left TWI a long time back, who would also inherit (and who, by the way, is a lovely person ... I went to college with her for two of my years at UNC) ... but back to my main point ... if the reason the person above thinks that statement is off base, it may be because they either know or suppose that Brian M is set to inherit money when Grandpa Walker dies.
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penguin
Welcome to the cafe Mr. Pipes! And congratulations on your new found freedom. We didn't send any letter to the pres of twi when we left, but the few things we did point out as reasons to leave were knocked down as being not true by our region corpse. I think any corpse still left in twi -with maybe the exception of some of the newly graduated ones that have no presence that I am aware of at the spot--don't really think that any change is needed. (They think it has already happened.) They have been lulled to sleep by all the legalism and standards forced upon them. They are so busy they don't have time to think about some of the problems if they even see any of them.
Bliss I would like to know the response!!
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JWitt
I'll bite Bliss. What did they say?
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bliss
I just wanted to see if you were paying attention..............
no really, I had a mommy episode to deal with, sorry.
Response::::::::::::::::::drum roll please...........................
"well, maybe one day your concerns will be addressed".
That was it.
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George Aar
JWitt,
Re:"George you wouldn't be a cynic by any chance would you?"
Well, I'm not entirely cynicism-free. But I prefer the title I hold currently "curmudgeon", and I'm working my way up to "cranky old bastard"...
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Belle
LOL! Bliss, that's basically what they told me, too. Dottie said that she felt like I would come to see the TWI that we all loved and remembered.
She doesn't realize there was never a TWI that I loved and remembered....AND....that because they are just jumping through the hoops to keep the money rolling into their bank account, they aren't going to be able to make any changes, much less waves.
I wonder now, if they regret encouraging Brian to go WC. Think about it, he's got a college degree he's done absolutely nothing with. Is he going to have to continue selling his soul to Rosie and company to make a living? WC who've had to move from full time TWIt pay to "the real world" have had a very tough time of it.
Shortfuse, I really think there never was anything good about TWI in and of itself. I think there were some wonderful God loving people who really did want to help others at one time, but all those folks have been kicked to the curb or lobotomized and now there's nothing left but stolen works that have been twisted and perverted to suit the desires of those who are living high on the hog. It's nothing but a sand castle.....and an ugly one at that. There's nothing left to save and, as Oakspear said, there's LOTS and LOTS of options out there - even the offshoots are doing a better job of being the TWI that people once loved....why even try to save TWI at this point?
Remember Rosie is the instigator and director of all things micro-management that folks in TWI have come to be comfortable with. ;)
Mr. Pipes!!! Welcome!!!! I think we'd all love to read your letter and hear the responses when you're ready. I think it's very telling that you never got a reply in writing.....they know they're so full of b.s. that they're afraid to put anything in writing any more....and especially not anything that wasn't priorly approved by the fox herself.
The next round's on me!
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Belle
That should be "curmudgeon, who's really tender" or "loveable cranky old bastard". :)
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Tom Strange
EGGzackley CoolChef! I didn't say "throw it out" I implied that it would be "gone quick"...!
(as would any Corps who tried to change things)
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dmiller
Mr Pipes --- Hey there. Welcome to GreaseSpot! :)
I'm guessing you're married to I Love Bagpipes --
that several of us have gotten to know in chat. :)
Yes -- when you're ready -- I also (bullinger) would love to hear what you told them.
Everything I have seen from your posts --- proves you are not a hot-head.
Posting your letter, and the response (if any) ---
might help show some folks that nothing has changed.
Thank you for your kind consideration. :)
(sigh --- ) A *kinder gentler twi* -- eh? And folks are still leaving,
while others live there in fear --- not wanting to upset the applecart.
*Nothing new under the sun* comes to mind. <_<
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Suda
Welcome Mr. Pipes. Glad to have you among us.
A North Carolina girl at heart,
Suda
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Mr. Pipes
Thank you GSC'ers for your welcome and kind words. You have been a real help to my wife, the lovely I Love Bagpipes, and me. The Mrs. has patiently retyped the letter I sent to Rev. Rivenbark.
Understand I was still attending TWI fellowships when this was written (at work without any reference info available). I was scheduled to teach a SMF the Sunday after this letter was dated. As surprised as you may be (and I was), I still taught; even though copies were sent to the HFC, BC, and LC/RC as well. No one forbade me the chance to teach. The LC/RC met with me on the 19th to discuss points in this letter after he talked with HQ. Subsequent to that meeting, he has offered on two separate occasions to have a follow up visit to "work the word" together on these points. All communciation has been verbal and I have not been made Mark & Avoid, though I expected it. Hence it is a kinder and gentler TWI.
Following the letter are some of the responses from the LC/RC. However, the bottom line appears to be there will not be any doctrinal changes at TWI without a huge amount of research by a lot of people.
Begin letter:
March 13, 2006
Dear Rev. Rivenbark,
God bless you abundantly in the name of Jesus Christ. I remember part of the prophecy from your installation as Vice-President was "..to heal the stripes of the adversary...". You have taken positive steps since becoming President to begin the healing process, including: (1) stopping the abuse of the "mark and avoid" practice, (2) redirecting the STS teachings to be positive and absent from verbal attacks on any who don't buy into the teaching 100%, and (3) beginning the recognition certificates for faithfulness to the Way International (TWI for short) for both HFC's and believers. The atmosphere within TWI has changed from "you're either with me or against me; there is no middle ground" to a much more tender and welcoming "good to see you and how are you?"
However there are some major issues left over from Rev. Martindale's administration that need to be corrected. The practices (or doctrines) below are at least some of the most significant obstacles to growth and outreach within TWI.
I. Money. The love of it is the root of all evil. However, the management of an individual's money is only between him, God, his/her family, and whomever payments for goods or services are due. The "no debt doctrine" absolutely cannot be documented from the rightly divided Word, and the proof of the error is in the financial hurt caused to most who adhere to it. In the 10 plus years since it became the standard for the Corps, HFC's, and AC students, those who sold homes and began renting have lost both the equity increase from mortgage reductions and property value appreciation. Some folks have suffered losses in the hundreds of thousands of dollars. This is not a senses-based argument, but a factual-based observation of the impact of practicing wrong doctrine. It is pouring water into a "broken cistern that can hold no water." It is absolutely the individual's responsibility to mange their affairs and not become caught up in the "keeping up with the Jones'" or obtaining more things tha they need and can steward. Continuing this no debt standard will lead to more people deciding the cost of compliance is greater than the benefit associated with it.
The second point in this topic is tithing and abundant sharing. The tithe was a Law Adminstration law. In the Patriarchal Administration sacrifices were offered, but the only tithe record is of the singular event of Abraham AFTER the king of Salem (or mayor in our day) gave food and drink to him and his men. The tithe was to support the tribe of Levi. There are no records of tithing in Acts. Absolutely, we are instructed to give to the movement of the Word and support ministers who are worthy of double honor. Those examples are recorded in Acts and the Epistles. In the Old Testament, Levi would have made up about 1/12 of the population; therefore a 10th from the remaining 11 tribes would have provided the priests with equal financial status as their brethren and provided enough for the sacrifices as well.
Tithing is an involved topic, but to teach it is a necessary part of operating the revelation and impartation manifestations is to deny the accomplishments of Jesus Christ and to replace them with the works of the flesh to please God. Tithing is a work of the flesh, while revelation and impartation manifestations are spiritual. God does instruct us to give as we purpose in our hearts to move the Word, but He does not require the tithe to bless us, protect us, or give us access to revelation and operation of the impartation manifestations.
II. Management. In the expansion days of TWI, the household fellowships were to be self-supporting, self-propagating, and self-governing. The self-governing has been replaced by management from Ways Corps following Board of Directors' plans. Local fellowships must submit a calendar to their branch coordinator for approval. (I have no idea what happens once the branch coordinators receive them.) The teaching topics are managed by the overemphasis on the STS and Way Magazine articles. Didn't the teachers do a good enough job the first time? Are the HFC's (who are debt free AC grads) incapable of planning a simple fellowship calendar and knowing what their people need to hear? This calendar and topic managment is absolutely no different than the Southern Baptist Sunday Schools using "quarterlies" to teach their followers. It is an insult to the capabilities of any HFC. If they cannot plan and don't know what needs to be taught, they aren't spiritual enough to oversee a fellowship.
III. Ministering. Since the last Rock of Ages there has not been a summer event open to anyone and everyone to come see the big-picture perspective of TWI. Since the last Word in Business there has not been a national or international conference for anyone other than AC students and grads. Since before the last Rock of Ages no one from the Board of Directors has taught an open fellowship on the field (other than Gunnison) - at least to the best of my knowledge. This isolation of leadership at HQ is: (1) contrary to the pattern established in Acts by Peter and Paul and the other apostles and noted in The New Dynamic Church, and (2) sets up the region visits to HQ as a pilgrimage; something not noted nor established in Acts or Epistles. "Come and see" is not a command for us, but "Go, tell" is a command for us. You and others should travel to teach. Otherwise coupled with the larger issues, TWI will become pockets of followers isolated from their leaders and incapable of sustaining outreach or having any greater impact or meaning than has already been achieved.
My HFC is _________. _______ are the branch coordinators and _________the limb and region coordinators. These people are bright, motivated, love God, and are committed to TWI. I love and respect each of them. They need your help by breaking the bonds that thwart their outreach efforts. They plan events and witness to folks and get some to attend fellowships for a while, but none seem to stick. The question is why. The answer is not them; they are kind and loving. But the answer is what they have to offer is limited. The issues mentioned above are a few of the limitations place on them and other field leadership within TWI. Other ministries are growing, but TWI is shrinking (or if its "membership" is staying about level, it is due to children of Way believers coming of "class" age and not because others are being "won to the ministry").
Other ministries offer Biblical research and classes comparable (do I dare say better than?) TWI and do not put bonds onto their followers and leaders. Perhaps unbeknownst to you, few followers of TWI are blessed with it. Most tolerate it thinking "there is nothing else better available," all the while hoping things within TWI will change. I do not know how many, if any, such letters have been sent to you. My goal is to offer an outsider's perspective to dramatically improve the funcitoning of TWI "on the field."
Whether you decide to act on this letter is your business. My conscious is now clear. My sufficiency is of God, (not through or by TWI), and I eagerly anticipate His blessings for taking a stand against religion that has crept into and paralyzed the ministry that taught me the Word and how to live it. You are in a unique position to affect change immediately. Due to your position your only boss is God, but your responsibility is to all of TWI. The masses are looking to you for further healing and freedom from the stripes and bondage of the devil brought into TWI by the ego of Craig Martindale. You are the only one today who can bring it to TWI by changing standards that are contrary to the Word.
You have honorably served TWI corporately. Please serve it as honorably spiritually by throwing out the damnable doctrines that have crept in.
Love in Christ,
End letter
Verbal responses/feedback:
1. The BoD stands by its "no debt" doctrine
2. Coordinators have great latitude in planning and teaching. (Well, maybe; I have not been an HFC for three years. Sure seems to be a locked-in situation, though).
3. As for giving $ to manifest spiritual power, LC/RC said he's never taught $10 of ABS = $10 of revelation.
(From him that is true, but the new foundational class syllabus includes LCM's articles on "The Tithe Doth Still Supply" and "The Spiritual Abundance of Abundant Sharing". So TWI standard doctrine hasn't changed though the LC/RC doesn't seem to agree with it).
4. The last RoA was physically dangerous as gang members and other "threats" were admitted to HQ grounds without any screeening or supervision.
5. TWI is expanding. Its growth is not dynamic because of splinter groups who attract folks who once would have come to TWI.
I do want to emphasize my treatment from TWI since this letter has been cordial. However, there has been no communication from anyone other than the LC/RC since March 19th. I have not attended a meeting since then. Never a word directly from Rev. R.
You guys and gals are smart folks. You can draw your own conclusions.
BTW I do not plan to post often, mainly due to time constraints. But I do enjoy browsing the wit and insight many of you share.
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dmiller
Mr. and Mrs. Pipes --- You two are awesome!!!
What a letter!!
What a response!! :(
Thank you for the time and effort it took to post this for us here.
I can't believe (wait-a-minute---I CAN BELIEVE), the response you got,
to such a well written, to-the-point letter pointing out twi deficiencies.
God bless you for trying.
"What's worth saying, is worth saying over, and over, and over, and over ---"
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dmiller
WHAT --- A --- HOOT!!!!
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DogLover
Well put, Mr. Pipes, well put!
Those of you who are in and still lurking ... be aware that Rosa-lie and the BoD care not one whit about whether the doctrine is pure or impure. They care about the money you give and those of us who were in for years gave ... which Rosalie and Donna (and her children) now live off of comfortably ... with nice shopping trips and vacations and the like ... while you live without a house of your own and a decent car, etc. They DO NOT CARE ABOUT YOU or about God ... do not believe the women behind the curtain!
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dmiller
(Twi will get rid of the *other fruit*, if you fill the *Horn-o-Plenty* with this).
(By their fruit --- Ye shall know them.") ;) :blink: ;)
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ex10
Thanks dahling, Mr. Pipes for sharing with us. I admire you for doing what you did, and caring enuff to post this.
You have alotta nerve, and care and concern about those whom you know nothing of.
Thank you for that.
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Kevlar2000
Dear Mr. Pipes,
Allow me to also welcome you to this interesting discussion forum. It, and it's predecessors, have provided some real eye-openers.
I appreciate the points you made in your letter. They were pertinent and well thought out. I am disappointed, although not surprised, at the responses you received. Since you directed the letter to Rosalie Rivenbark, you should have at least received a form letter thanking you for writing, and telling you your Limb/Region Co-ordinator would contact you to discuss this more fully. Then again, they may not wish to commit to written responses (especially about the "no debt" mandate) which could be held against them at a later date.
It may also speak to the disconnect TWI Directors feel with the "little people" that they don't address these concerns themselves. Even with the rationale of "the L/R Coordinator knows this person, and can address the 'real' reason they're bringing this stuff up", you didn't write the L/R Coordinator. You took the time, effort, and concern needed to put your thoughts and issues in writing and sent it to the person most responsible for Way policies and procedures. You should have gotten at least a token response from her or the Board of Directors. I mean, jeez, they can't be that busy!
I was interested in some of the responses:
No reason or justification. Not even a presentation of the benefits of that policy. "It is because we say so, and that's that."As long as you don't discover and teach things not supported by the Way International.
I once had the pleasure of attending a teaching by the parents of someone in our fellowship. The parents had taken the Power for Abundant Living class in the early to middle 1960s. As I had not met many PFAL grads from this era, I was interested in their perspective. What followed was definitely not within the Way orthodoxy. Among the points I remember most was the assertion that Jesus and his family must have visited Europe (specifically England) during the years of his youth not spoken of in the bible. I said in my Waybrainedness, "Man that's so off! And these are PFAL grads?!" I understand now they had "worked the Word" and other materials for themselves, and had come to markedly different conclusions than Mr. Wierwille had.
And they had been able to do this because at that time, Mr. Wierwille and company did not and could not have had the kind of "like-mindedness" control over these people that came to be the hallmark of TWI in later years. "No debt" or similar edicts would have been met with, "Who the hell do you think YOU are?! All I did was take your bible class! I don't owe YOU anything! Good-bye!"
I had not heard the gang infiltration reason before. (I'm not saying there wasn't; I don't know) Has anyone else on Greasespot heard this one?I'm surprised to hear the more or less official acknowledgement of the "splinter" groups from an official "representative." And how is TWI expanding? Not in numbers of adherents. Not in name recognition or influence (99% of the people I know have never heard of the Way). Not in physical acquisitions - most of their properties have been sold off.
Again, thank you for posting the letter and the responses. Your letter may not have gotten a response from the BOD because it hits them where they live.
It also occurs to me that the way the L/R co-ordinator responded may indicate they have their own doubts about Way policy.
My best to you, Mrs. Pipes and your family.
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T-Bone
Thanks for sharing your letter and responses, Mr.Pipes - my favorite part is the above quote - courageous and insightful!!!!
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Belle
Awesome! Just Awesome!!
I suspect that you didn't not receive any reply from Rosie in writing because it would have been the same b.s. John Richeson got from his equally concerned, logical and caring letter. Your care and concern for the TWI that you came to know an love and the people involved comes through loud and clear. You seem, like John, to not want to leave TWI, but could no longer, in good conscience, stay with things the way they are.
Hopefully your letter stirred up some thoughts, doubts and concerns with those who read your letter and had to come up with justifications and rationalizations along "the company line" to bring to you. One can only ignore all the problems with TWI just so long. One who still has a glint of light in their life anyway. I'm afraid the fox's heart is too much of a black hole to be reached with the light of God or the light of logic. I pray the others who have read your letter are not so sold out and so dependent on the TWIt paycheck to ignore the very rational, real and logical points addressed in your letter.
Obviously the Giles and the Moneyhands would rather garner the pseudo-respect, money and other perceived benefits of towing the company line than to actually do what is right. Hopefully your leadership is different.
Thank you and your lovely wife for taking the time to post this for us. IMO, it just shows that they really haven't and really don't want to change. Furthermore, that they are too scared to put anything in writing anymore because they know they're wrong and that it will/can/should come back to bite them on the foot.
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Cherished Child
They may stand by their "No Debt Policy" now, but they will fall by it sometime in the future. Imagine the collective knashing of teeth that will occur once their aging followership realizes that they have no net worth to cushion their "golden years", that they are STILL paying rent (at higher and higher costs for less and less square footage), when they should own their home own their home outright by now. But the kids will rebel. They are too smart to follow their parent's example, especially the ones who are college educated. They will obtain mortgages and buy homes because sheer logic compels it. But most will have drifted away from TWI by then. They are already leaving. Surely Rosie and the BOD can see that.
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outofdafog
(((((((Cherished child))))))))))))))
good to see ya!!!!!!!!
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Belle
(((((Cherished Child)))))
It IS good to see you! I hope things are well with you.
On the news this morning they were saying that the 20-somethings these days are the most educated generation we've had in the US. Those kids aren't stupid. Once they get out into the "real world" - provided they GET out into the "real world", they'll see how illogical TWIt doctrines are and how wonderful life can be and is outside the walls of TWIt-dom.
It's those who are raised in TWI, who will go WD, then WC and then on staff or some other TWIt capacity, who are going to suffer the most. Look at Moneyhand's kid. He's on staff with TWI, has a wife and kids and has never worked a "real job" a day in his life. When TWI falls or when he sees his parents get screwed royally by Rosie and company, he's going to be in for a rude awakening and not much he can do about it, but keep on kissing Rosie's arse or face living way below the standard lifestyle he's accustomed to.
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shortfuse
On this point you're way off base.
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SafariVista
What's off about it? Just wondering~
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DogLover
Safari...I was wondering what was so "off" about the comment about Brian Moneyhands myself ... and the only thing I can think of is that he may be in a position to inherit some money from his grandparents (Dottie's parents) that might be substantial ... but that, in my humble opinion, may be very unlikely because she has a disabled sister (injured in a car accident as a teen) who has required/requires large sums of money for medical care, and she also has another sister, who left TWI a long time back, who would also inherit (and who, by the way, is a lovely person ... I went to college with her for two of my years at UNC) ... but back to my main point ... if the reason the person above thinks that statement is off base, it may be because they either know or suppose that Brian M is set to inherit money when Grandpa Walker dies.
DL
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