Well, though not reality, the movie, A Bug Lifes could be a good example of how to make changes in TWI!
For those unfamiliar with this movie, the Ants are being bullied into supplying all the food for the Grasshopper Gang.
With the help of a witty inventor ant, the colony comes to realize that they greatly out number the grasshoppers, and their freedom is soon a reality.
If the whole colony demanded a voice, and refused to continue 'giving' until error was corrected, and peoples hearts taken care of... well, I could see something possibly happening...
Now, will the colony do this?... :unsure:
edited 'corps' to colony ;) Since they could always train more corps, but wouldn't be able to do much with out the money :)
As I recall, about 20 years ago a bunch of us Corpse tried to change things, thought we could change things, wanted to change things, but shoot, we didn't realize that the Big Dogs didn't want to change.
So, myself and George and thousands of others had no choice....we left after giving it our best shot, and hoping it would work.
Besides, it wasn't fun being dominated by Pharisee types and all. I'd rather work under Tony Supranos.
Within the past two months I sent a letter to the TWI President regarding a couple of issues that are obviously wrong doctrinally and/or practically. The letter was strongly worded without directly attacking her, instead naming LCM as the culprit. (Not nearly strong enough for you GSCers, but plenty strong as an innie, as I was at the time)
To the point of this topic, the responsibility to respond was passed back down to the LC. It is still up to the Way Corps "on the field" to defend TWI's doctrine rather than seek the truth. Hence the BOD is locked into their old doctrine and no pressure from "the field" will change them. TWI has plenty of $$$, so dwindling numbers doesn't threaten it financially. As long as their cash flow (from both investments and donations) supports them, no "external" factors will cause change.
Guys and gals, this is my 1st post. I only stopped attending TWI meeting six weeks ago. As recently as the last fellowship meeting I attended, there was nothing to indicate unrest with the Way Corps or the fellowship coordinators. Just keeping their heads down following the doctrine laid out by the BOD.
My simple minded conclusion, people are rescued from TWI. Without change in the BOD's belief system TWI cannot be changed or rescued. Personally, I'm very happy to be out.
I didn't say that. I am saying if anyone is responsible to lead, or more specifically to speak up and bring about change, that would be the Corps, imo. Where are you going with this, paw?
In the eyes of the BOD, non-corps aren't leaders (my opinion). If you have not "drunk the kool aid" of Way Corps training, you have very limited credibility. How many times have non-corps taught at HQ?
Based on secular success, I'd say more non-corps are leaders than active way corps.
Simple. It is not fair to the rest of the community here to infer that corps are the only ones up for the task. Your premise excludes many fine men and women that are more than up for the task AND are doing something about it. I think your premise could be a little better thought out, that is all I am saying.
Simple. It is not fair to the rest of the community here to infer that corps are the only ones up for the task. Your premise excludes many fine men and women that are more than up for the task AND are doing something about it. I think your premise could be a little better thought out, that is all I am saying.
Okay, fair enough. My intent was not to exclude people who are qualified and up to the task. It's my hunch that many more active way corps read this board than one might think, and that they are mulling things over trying to find some way to salvage it all. I didn't really expect any active way corps to reply to this, but I think they are reading it. I am one that privately holds out hope that the whole mess can be cleaned up - yes I know this is insane to many who post here. It's hard to sort it all out. Just putting the thought out there, no insults intended.
Simple. It is not fair to the rest of the community here to infer that corps are the only ones up for the task. Your premise excludes many fine men and women that are more than up for the task AND are doing something about it. I think your premise could be a little better thought out, that is all I am saying.
My husband and I came to the organization later in life so we had at least 10 years of living life and the experience and education that brings with it.
The BC (ordained) asked us (husband and myself) to show up early to a large meeting to learn. One of us to watch and learn about ushering and the other about audio operation. We knocked on the door and some arrogant wipper-snapper shoo'ed us off telling us that "this kind of stuff is only for Corp and we didn't qualify.
The shame of it is, we were very willing to be helpers "in particular". Neither one of us was up for that kind of embarassment again, so we never volunteered, and when asked we said no thanks. That was the mind-set in the early-mid '80's and I doubt it's changed unless there aren't enough Corp people around to get certain jobs done now. That's just how it is.
Okay - one more thing while I've got my soap box here [so what if I am short]...I have mixed feelings about TWI or any ORGANIZATION that says it's providing a genuine Christian service...If the organization is really trying to help people live the Christian Life - I say more power to 'em! It's something worthy of people's best efforts....Sometimes - sometimes - sometimes [a rare triple emphatic figure of speech of my own choosing] - I tend to think people are talking about saving the Body of Christ....Here's my personal theology showing: Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church - the invisible church - all those that belong to him make up this invisible church. Any denomination, church, organization, whatever visible grouping of people you name - is NOT the invisible Body of Christ. Some in the visible group may be also part of Christ's invisible group....
I would think that the onus to motivate change in TWI would most effectively originate at the rank-and-file level.
But, they first have to see the need for change and be willing to do something about it.
Mr Pipes, having recently left, may have something to say about the general attitude of the rank and file remaing in TWI. Are they generally content, or are they generally discontent? Do they see a need for change?
While non-Corps may not be perceived as "leaders" by the BOD - they are the life-blood of the organization. They suppy the money and the meeting places that allow the organization to continue in its current mode.
I am guessing that it would take no less than an organized mass revolt of the rank & file to effect any real change in TWI. Even then, the BOD could just run everyone off and play church with the "remnant" that would undoubtedly stay - while holding on to their 60 million or so.
You also have to ask the question: Even if real change is attempted, is TWI actually salvagable as a Christian ministry? My guess is that it is not.
Interesting about the letter to the prez of TWI. Igotout wrote one of those about 5 years ago (same prez) and it was not received well; I wrote one shortly thereafter to the sec'y-treasurer, and was passed down to the region coordintor. Shortly thereafter we were both out.
As far as change goes, unlike, say 20 or 30 years ago, there are organizations aplenty to satisfy any vision of what a changed TWI would be like, ex-Way leaders run groups which are very much like the 'good 'ol days' TWI, complete with PFAL, others have evolved to include different teachings, while otehrs have gone in different directions altogether. In some ways, these groups are the "changed" Way International, without legal title to the name.
Hi Goey, thanks for the inquiry re: the rank and file. The tempature of believing is likewarm overall.
I don't see a mass revolt. Instead it is a steady trickle of folks leaving. In the larger area I was part of it appeared more folks were leaving than being added. (I'm told there are areas were TWI fellowships are growing. There are still some well intended and talented people there to achieve whatever success they have.) I imagine in a couple more years, the overall tempature of the organization will lower as the remaining folks get older and with less abundance than their "unbeliever" friends and family. But they may never figure out the problem was TWI taught doctrines of men leading them to ruin.
Most folks I've talked to privately are hanging on because they are afraid to leave. Their reasons are numerous, but they stay regardless of how discontent they are. They feel powerless to effect change. Frankly. the BOD are simply names for the rank and file to hold in regard. If every director was replaced, the rank and file wouldn't know the difference, unless the doctrine and practice were corrected, otherwise just the names and pictures of the leaders they pray for would be different.
The only leverage the rank and file have is their $$$ and time to support classes and functions.
To you who want to read my letter, I will be happy to share it in another couple of weeks. There are some loose ends to tie up first. I was treated respectfully in TWI's response. However, the response has been verbal and at a local level. Nothing directly from the BOD.
Mr. Pipes, I for one would be interested in reading your letter [when ready to share] and even hearing some of the verbal responses. A lot of times they [verbal responses] can be more revealing - people tend to be a little more free with their thoughts than when committing something in writing.
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George Aar
At the risk of sounding like the a-hole lots of folks think I am,
Your post presupposes a number of things, ie:
That it's possible to change the organization by the efforts of a few of it's members
That there still are "corps" around that care about the outfit enough to try
And - not the least important - that the whole pathetic, ill-conceived, debased institution is anything worth "saving" at all.
Personally, I'm not convinced of any of those points...
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SafariVista
Well, though not reality, the movie, A Bug Lifes could be a good example of how to make changes in TWI!
For those unfamiliar with this movie, the Ants are being bullied into supplying all the food for the Grasshopper Gang.
With the help of a witty inventor ant, the colony comes to realize that they greatly out number the grasshoppers, and their freedom is soon a reality.
If the whole colony demanded a voice, and refused to continue 'giving' until error was corrected, and peoples hearts taken care of... well, I could see something possibly happening...
Now, will the colony do this?... :unsure:
edited 'corps' to colony ;) Since they could always train more corps, but wouldn't be able to do much with out the money :)
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Tom Strange
Probably not... but those that do will be gone (dismissed) faster than yesterday's leftover fried chicken...
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engine
As I recall, about 20 years ago a bunch of us Corpse tried to change things, thought we could change things, wanted to change things, but shoot, we didn't realize that the Big Dogs didn't want to change.
So, myself and George and thousands of others had no choice....we left after giving it our best shot, and hoping it would work.
Besides, it wasn't fun being dominated by Pharisee types and all. I'd rather work under Tony Supranos.
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pawtucket
Do the way corps have special powers, short?
Are you saying that they are an elite group?
That kind of thinking is a big part of what is wrong.
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shortfuse
They are supposed to be leaders, but they are for the most part disgruntled followers.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
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Mr. Pipes
Within the past two months I sent a letter to the TWI President regarding a couple of issues that are obviously wrong doctrinally and/or practically. The letter was strongly worded without directly attacking her, instead naming LCM as the culprit. (Not nearly strong enough for you GSCers, but plenty strong as an innie, as I was at the time)
To the point of this topic, the responsibility to respond was passed back down to the LC. It is still up to the Way Corps "on the field" to defend TWI's doctrine rather than seek the truth. Hence the BOD is locked into their old doctrine and no pressure from "the field" will change them. TWI has plenty of $$$, so dwindling numbers doesn't threaten it financially. As long as their cash flow (from both investments and donations) supports them, no "external" factors will cause change.
Guys and gals, this is my 1st post. I only stopped attending TWI meeting six weeks ago. As recently as the last fellowship meeting I attended, there was nothing to indicate unrest with the Way Corps or the fellowship coordinators. Just keeping their heads down following the doctrine laid out by the BOD.
My simple minded conclusion, people are rescued from TWI. Without change in the BOD's belief system TWI cannot be changed or rescued. Personally, I'm very happy to be out.
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pawtucket
So are you saying that non-corps aren't leaders?
Welcome Mr. Pipes.
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shortfuse
I didn't say that. I am saying if anyone is responsible to lead, or more specifically to speak up and bring about change, that would be the Corps, imo. Where are you going with this, paw?
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GT
Mr. Pipes,
I would enjoy reading your letter and details of the response you received.
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shortfuse
Ditto that.
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Mr. Pipes
Paw, thanks for your work.
In the eyes of the BOD, non-corps aren't leaders (my opinion). If you have not "drunk the kool aid" of Way Corps training, you have very limited credibility. How many times have non-corps taught at HQ?
Based on secular success, I'd say more non-corps are leaders than active way corps.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
welcome to the cafe mr.pipes
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pawtucket
Where am I going with this?
Simple. It is not fair to the rest of the community here to infer that corps are the only ones up for the task. Your premise excludes many fine men and women that are more than up for the task AND are doing something about it. I think your premise could be a little better thought out, that is all I am saying.
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T-Bone
Welcome to the Café, Mr.Pipes...Now this is just my opinion of the effect of way-corps training on me - and please any Corps reading this don't take this wrong - I became a "mesmerized flunky for the man." Looking back on my TWI years I tend to think a lot of the people I admired for how they handled life never went in the Corps....SO, any corps reading this - please don't take this to mean I'm saying the corps training made everyone dullards....I think it's an individual thing - and my personality/thinking process and the Way Corps training ARE NOT a good mix....I knew a lot of very sharp people in the corps. In my opinion, their [TWI] mode of operation tends to suppress thinking [you've got to be especially Strong-willed to survive]. When I walked in a room there would be a hush over the crowd - I could hear someone whisper "The Kool-Aid is strong with this one." .......In my opinion - anyone in TWI who strives to change things for the better - is fighting an uphill battle because the organization is so encrusted in practical error as to nullify any minuscule attempts.
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shortfuse
Okay, fair enough. My intent was not to exclude people who are qualified and up to the task. It's my hunch that many more active way corps read this board than one might think, and that they are mulling things over trying to find some way to salvage it all. I didn't really expect any active way corps to reply to this, but I think they are reading it. I am one that privately holds out hope that the whole mess can be cleaned up - yes I know this is insane to many who post here. It's hard to sort it all out. Just putting the thought out there, no insults intended.
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krys
Thanks Pawtucket.
My husband and I came to the organization later in life so we had at least 10 years of living life and the experience and education that brings with it.
The BC (ordained) asked us (husband and myself) to show up early to a large meeting to learn. One of us to watch and learn about ushering and the other about audio operation. We knocked on the door and some arrogant wipper-snapper shoo'ed us off telling us that "this kind of stuff is only for Corp and we didn't qualify.
The shame of it is, we were very willing to be helpers "in particular". Neither one of us was up for that kind of embarassment again, so we never volunteered, and when asked we said no thanks. That was the mind-set in the early-mid '80's and I doubt it's changed unless there aren't enough Corp people around to get certain jobs done now. That's just how it is.
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T-Bone
Okay - one more thing while I've got my soap box here [so what if I am short]...I have mixed feelings about TWI or any ORGANIZATION that says it's providing a genuine Christian service...If the organization is really trying to help people live the Christian Life - I say more power to 'em! It's something worthy of people's best efforts....Sometimes - sometimes - sometimes [a rare triple emphatic figure of speech of my own choosing] - I tend to think people are talking about saving the Body of Christ....Here's my personal theology showing: Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church - the invisible church - all those that belong to him make up this invisible church. Any denomination, church, organization, whatever visible grouping of people you name - is NOT the invisible Body of Christ. Some in the visible group may be also part of Christ's invisible group....
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Goey
I would think that the onus to motivate change in TWI would most effectively originate at the rank-and-file level.
But, they first have to see the need for change and be willing to do something about it.
Mr Pipes, having recently left, may have something to say about the general attitude of the rank and file remaing in TWI. Are they generally content, or are they generally discontent? Do they see a need for change?
While non-Corps may not be perceived as "leaders" by the BOD - they are the life-blood of the organization. They suppy the money and the meeting places that allow the organization to continue in its current mode.
I am guessing that it would take no less than an organized mass revolt of the rank & file to effect any real change in TWI. Even then, the BOD could just run everyone off and play church with the "remnant" that would undoubtedly stay - while holding on to their 60 million or so.
You also have to ask the question: Even if real change is attempted, is TWI actually salvagable as a Christian ministry? My guess is that it is not.
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Oakspear
Interesting about the letter to the prez of TWI. Igotout wrote one of those about 5 years ago (same prez) and it was not received well; I wrote one shortly thereafter to the sec'y-treasurer, and was passed down to the region coordintor. Shortly thereafter we were both out.
As far as change goes, unlike, say 20 or 30 years ago, there are organizations aplenty to satisfy any vision of what a changed TWI would be like, ex-Way leaders run groups which are very much like the 'good 'ol days' TWI, complete with PFAL, others have evolved to include different teachings, while otehrs have gone in different directions altogether. In some ways, these groups are the "changed" Way International, without legal title to the name.
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Mr. Pipes
Hi Goey, thanks for the inquiry re: the rank and file. The tempature of believing is likewarm overall.
I don't see a mass revolt. Instead it is a steady trickle of folks leaving. In the larger area I was part of it appeared more folks were leaving than being added. (I'm told there are areas were TWI fellowships are growing. There are still some well intended and talented people there to achieve whatever success they have.) I imagine in a couple more years, the overall tempature of the organization will lower as the remaining folks get older and with less abundance than their "unbeliever" friends and family. But they may never figure out the problem was TWI taught doctrines of men leading them to ruin.
Most folks I've talked to privately are hanging on because they are afraid to leave. Their reasons are numerous, but they stay regardless of how discontent they are. They feel powerless to effect change. Frankly. the BOD are simply names for the rank and file to hold in regard. If every director was replaced, the rank and file wouldn't know the difference, unless the doctrine and practice were corrected, otherwise just the names and pictures of the leaders they pray for would be different.
The only leverage the rank and file have is their $$$ and time to support classes and functions.
To you who want to read my letter, I will be happy to share it in another couple of weeks. There are some loose ends to tie up first. I was treated respectfully in TWI's response. However, the response has been verbal and at a local level. Nothing directly from the BOD.
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T-Bone
Mr. Pipes, I for one would be interested in reading your letter [when ready to share] and even hearing some of the verbal responses. A lot of times they [verbal responses] can be more revealing - people tend to be a little more free with their thoughts than when committing something in writing.
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JWitt
At the risk of sounding like the a-hole lots of folks think I am,
Your post presupposes a number of things, ie:
That it's possible to change the organization by the efforts of a few of it's members
That there still are "corps" around that care about the outfit enough to try
And - not the least important - that the whole pathetic, ill-conceived, debased institution is anything worth "saving" at all.
Personally, I'm not convinced of any of those points...
George you wouldn't be a cynic by any chance would you?
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