In hind sight was Communism bad? Yes, the way they employed it.
Ha... spoken like a true believer in communism. :)
Sure it does. It fits right in with ol' veepee's M.O. ...say anything to anyone to gain their confidence, trust and dollars.
Shows your bias, Tom. You will readily accept anything negative about Wierwille, but do not accept evidence to the contrary. Or if you do accept, you explain it away. Bias bias bias...
Communism in its pure form is simply a type of economy, just like capitolism and socialism. In theory you could have a communist economy and a democtratic government or a capitalistic economy with a fascist government.
As for supporting communism, well I don't think it HAS to be that god awful if it is done right. Likewise, I am not a support of pure capitolism either. My preference is for a blending of capitolism and socialism and I'm not ashamed to acknowledge it.
However, I am opposed to fascism, dictators, monarchies, etc.
There's great truth in what both Abigail and Raf just posted OM... but I truly fear it will be totally lost on you...
What Russia became was Facism under the 'guise' of communism.
And I'll paraphrase Raf here: 'Just because the Russians fought on the right side in WWII doesnt' mean we fought on the wrong side.'
And of course you totally ignore this point: Was it worse than Hitler's 'world domination along with eradication of inferior races' plan? NO. Not then, not now.
Why is it so bloody difficult for some of the VPW camp to just come out and say "VPW was wrong in his admiration of Hitler"? Does saying that VPW was wrong , somehow, make him of less stature? Must he be right on every POV in order for him to be a Leader? because This is whatI am hearing on this and other threads --any suggestion that VPW was wrong about anything seems to threaten to topple the whole belief system that surrounds him in some VPW supporter eyes.
And if this is the case, maybe the question shold be, "if even one error will make the house of cards fall , why Am I involved or still following such an unstable structure?"
Why is it so bloody difficult for some of the VPW camp to just come out and say "VPW was wrong in his admiration of Hitler"? ...
Yes, if he "admired" Hitler the way he is being accused of in this thread, yes, he was wrong. But as I opined before, he was heard saying that "we fought on the wrong side in WWII", and that was because Hitler was fighting communism, not because he was a glassy-eyed admirer of Hitler and fascism.
Wierwille believed in oodles of other things contrary to fascism, like the Constitution, freedom of speech & religion, U.S. war veterans, etc. He believed in celebrating Memorial Day in the US. Fascists don't act like that.
Yes, if he "admired" Hitler the way he is being accused of in this thread, yes, he was wrong. But as I opined before, he was heard saying that "we fought on the wrong side in WWII", and that was because Hitler was fighting communism, not because he was a glassy-eyed admirer of Hitler and fascism.
So... just to be clear... NOW you're inferring that WWII was because "Hitler was fighting communism" and the "other side" didn't like it??? Is that what you're now claiming? inferring?
"Hitler was fighting communism"... that was what he was doing during WWII???
DO YOU HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING???
To what lengths of rationalization will you go?
You don't really expect to post statements like that and go unopposed do you?
It's statements like that that make you hard to take seriously OM...
"Hitler was fighting communism"... that was what he was doing during WWII??? [/b]
It was that part of what Hitler was doing that, I opine, Wierwille agreed with and that was why Wierwille said "we fought on the wrong side of WWII."
You don't actually think that Wierwille supported the killing of the Jews and others, and/or world global conquest of Hitler, do you? THAT... would be ridiculous, really.
But if you do, it is sheer speculation, with no evidence whatever to back it up.
By the way, with regards to the world communist threat, we DID fight on the wrong side of WWII.
Patton should have been allowed to kick their butts...
You can "opine" that's what Wierwille meant, but that requires us to ignore his promotion of The Myth of the Six Million, which has nothing to do with whether we fought on the wrong side of the war because of communism.
And another thing: There were only two sides to that war. To say we fought on the wrong side is to say we should have been fighting alongside Hitler instead of against him.
We made a deal with the devil with regard to communism and WWII, no doubt. But we were on the right side of that war.
For that matter, you could say we fought on the wrong side of WWII because the Italians were big on punctuality, so we were fighting punctuality.
...I also heard Wierwille say (with my own ears), that Hitler was on the "right track" with his goals in genetic engineering...or as some of us like to call it...selective breeding.
Wierwille liked the concept of the superiority of the arian race...I mean, afterall, Gawd DID select an old German to be mog.
No, oldies...you're barking up the wrong tree. Wierwille was a closet fascist. I wouldn't doubt it if he liked to wear a nazi uniform when he drugged young girls and took them to the back of the motorcoach.
By the way, with regards to the world communist threat, we DID fight on the wrong side of WWII.
DUDE! to even HINT that "Hitler was fighting communism" is beyond reason... and somewhat detracts from his goal of world domination and eradication from the planet of any race he considered inferior... but I guess on his way to that goal he actually was fighting the Russians... but I find that it really, really attempts to lessen the megalomaniac he truly was...
So communism is wrong in any way shape or form, but fascism by a leader who wipes out millions of people or (for the sake of your perspective) even just thousands of people simply because they are of a particular ethnic, or (again for your sake religious) group is okay? :blink:
I don't get the arguments by people who claim that Hitler didn't kill the Jews, or that Hitler and Germany didn't kill as many Jews as is being said, or that Hitler killed millions but these people who were killed weren't Jews, or m that Hitler did kill millions, and yes the millions that Hitler killed were Jews, but not REALLY Jews. Not the Jews of the same blood line from the OT. That whole argument sounds pretty ignorant to me. Its all a ploy to side track what was done, the evidences gathered, the first hand eye witnesses of survivors and soldiers who were first to arrive. Hitler thought he was killing Jews! Its old freaking history!
If I heard someone say that the USA fought on the wrong side during WWII, with the knowledge that we have today (and 40 years ago for that matter) of what happened during the war, then I would have to come to the conclusion that they were FOR the killing of millions of people by systematic extermination. Because...
The argument that VP believed we fought on the wrong side during WWII because VP was against communism is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected. Who thinks about communism in the face of what happened at the hands of Hitler and the Germans?
Do you know the *real* reason Hitler 'fought the Communists', ie., invaded Russia? One word: LAND.
Ever hear about the statement that Hitler/the Nazis used to justify the taking of Austria/Czeckoslovakia/Poland/other countries? Goebbels' 1943 Speech on Total War where he talked about the German people need more "breathing room". Ie., lands taken by conquest for the Third Reich. And yeah, Goebbels also talked about fighting Bolshevism as a defense, yadayada, ... which was basically propaganda on his part using the popular anti-Communist tirade in order to further Hitler's own totalitarian goals.
Ie., he wasn't any better than them, son.
Your loyalty to VeePee has gone to near Smikeol's insanity level. Quite desperate in form and substance in order to protect and maintain whatever thin shred of dignity is left of VPW's reputation, and even that is questionable at best.
Face it chief. The man has had his chance to make something positive of himself and to others. ... He failed. ... Miserably! And the more you defend him, the more evident this appears.
"I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected."
Oh and keep in mind, you are incorrect that a true facist wouldn't be (or act at least) like a patriot and wouldn't do things like salute the American flag or sign up for the military. As a matter of fact, you go to a good number of these pro-facist sites, and what is one of the prominent things that they have displayed? The American flag.
Not because they are real patriots and value the things that this country stands for, they don't. But saluting/being in favor of the American flag is something that just anybody and his brother can do.
Its what they really stand for when the press/spotlight isn't around that determines where they are really at.
The argument that VP believed we fought on the wrong side during WWII because VP was against communism is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected. Who thinks about communism in the face of what happened at the hands of Hitler and the Germans?
You don't actually think that Wierwille supported the killing of the Jews and others
From my time in the Way, from reading TMOTSM and other literature circulating my part of the country in TWI, from TWI"s attitude not only to those outside it's "Walls" but it's attitude toward those of the less fortunate within it's "Walls" YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHATITHINK
Golly Mo, that is pretty sick and accusatory thinking.
Now folks are being thought of supporting the killing of Jews and others because of a supposed "attitude" you observed?
Or the books they read?
Gee, that's awefully considerate of you.
My goodness, I wouldn't even label a revisionist himself a supporter of killing Jews and others without solid evidence of same; let alone labelling Wierwille and folks in twi that way. shame shame.
...Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire...
...I also heard Wierwille say (with my own ears), that Hitler was on the "right track" with his goals in genetic engineering...or as some of us like to call it...selective breeding.
Wierwille liked the concept of the superiority of the arian race...I mean, afterall, Gawd DID select an old German to be mog.
For me to actually believe what you're suggesting I'd have to sit down and have an in-depth conversation with Dr. Wierwille, asking him exactly what he meant, what context, and so forth. Which of course I can't do.
I'm not taking your word for it Groucho, you're just too darn anti-Wierwille and twi for me to think you'd deliver fair, non-accusatory information that is other than your usual all-negative thinking about them.
It is wrong of you to opine that Wierwille wore a swastika while committing his reprehensible actions.
It's okay, however, to opine what he was thinking when he said we were on the wrong side of WWII.
Ok now that we know there are some posters who believe Dr. Wierwille was a Nazi who supported the killing of Jews and others in WWII, having no problem wearing his embroidered swastika on his uniform while drugging young girls, may we count you in?
Come on Raffy, let the other shoe drop will ya? I really want to know.
DUDE! to even HINT that "Hitler was fighting communism" is beyond reason... and somewhat detracts from his goal of world domination and eradication from the planet of any race he considered inferior... but I guess on his way to that goal he actually was fighting the Russians... but I find that it really, really attempts to lessen the megalomaniac he truly was...
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oldiesman
Shows your bias, Tom. You will readily accept anything negative about Wierwille, but do not accept evidence to the contrary. Or if you do accept, you explain it away. Bias bias bias...
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Abigail
Haha, spoken with your own bias as well Oldies
Communism in its pure form is simply a type of economy, just like capitolism and socialism. In theory you could have a communist economy and a democtratic government or a capitalistic economy with a fascist government.
As for supporting communism, well I don't think it HAS to be that god awful if it is done right. Likewise, I am not a support of pure capitolism either. My preference is for a blending of capitolism and socialism and I'm not ashamed to acknowledge it.
However, I am opposed to fascism, dictators, monarchies, etc.
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Raf
Just because the communists fought on the right side in WWII doesn't mean we fought on the wrong side.
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Tom Strange
There's great truth in what both Abigail and Raf just posted OM... but I truly fear it will be totally lost on you...
What Russia became was Facism under the 'guise' of communism.
And I'll paraphrase Raf here: 'Just because the Russians fought on the right side in WWII doesnt' mean we fought on the wrong side.'
And of course you totally ignore this point: Was it worse than Hitler's 'world domination along with eradication of inferior races' plan? NO. Not then, not now.
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templelady
Why is it so bloody difficult for some of the VPW camp to just come out and say "VPW was wrong in his admiration of Hitler"? Does saying that VPW was wrong , somehow, make him of less stature? Must he be right on every POV in order for him to be a Leader? because This is what I am hearing on this and other threads --any suggestion that VPW was wrong about anything seems to threaten to topple the whole belief system that surrounds him in some VPW supporter eyes.
And if this is the case, maybe the question shold be, "if even one error will make the house of cards fall , why Am I involved or still following such an unstable structure?"
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oldiesman
Yes, if he "admired" Hitler the way he is being accused of in this thread, yes, he was wrong. But as I opined before, he was heard saying that "we fought on the wrong side in WWII", and that was because Hitler was fighting communism, not because he was a glassy-eyed admirer of Hitler and fascism.
Wierwille believed in oodles of other things contrary to fascism, like the Constitution, freedom of speech & religion, U.S. war veterans, etc. He believed in celebrating Memorial Day in the US. Fascists don't act like that.
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Tom Strange
So... just to be clear... NOW you're inferring that WWII was because "Hitler was fighting communism" and the "other side" didn't like it??? Is that what you're now claiming? inferring?
"Hitler was fighting communism"... that was what he was doing during WWII???
DO YOU HEAR WHAT YOU'RE SAYING???
To what lengths of rationalization will you go?
You don't really expect to post statements like that and go unopposed do you?
It's statements like that that make you hard to take seriously OM...
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oldiesman
It was that part of what Hitler was doing that, I opine, Wierwille agreed with and that was why Wierwille said "we fought on the wrong side of WWII."
You don't actually think that Wierwille supported the killing of the Jews and others, and/or world global conquest of Hitler, do you? THAT... would be ridiculous, really.
But if you do, it is sheer speculation, with no evidence whatever to back it up.
By the way, with regards to the world communist threat, we DID fight on the wrong side of WWII.
Patton should have been allowed to kick their butts...
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Raf
You can "opine" that's what Wierwille meant, but that requires us to ignore his promotion of The Myth of the Six Million, which has nothing to do with whether we fought on the wrong side of the war because of communism.
And another thing: There were only two sides to that war. To say we fought on the wrong side is to say we should have been fighting alongside Hitler instead of against him.
We made a deal with the devil with regard to communism and WWII, no doubt. But we were on the right side of that war.
For that matter, you could say we fought on the wrong side of WWII because the Italians were big on punctuality, so we were fighting punctuality.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Just to throw a little gasoline on the fire...
...I also heard Wierwille say (with my own ears), that Hitler was on the "right track" with his goals in genetic engineering...or as some of us like to call it...selective breeding.
Wierwille liked the concept of the superiority of the arian race...I mean, afterall, Gawd DID select an old German to be mog.
No, oldies...you're barking up the wrong tree. Wierwille was a closet fascist. I wouldn't doubt it if he liked to wear a nazi uniform when he drugged young girls and took them to the back of the motorcoach.
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Tom Strange
DUDE! to even HINT that "Hitler was fighting communism" is beyond reason... and somewhat detracts from his goal of world domination and eradication from the planet of any race he considered inferior... but I guess on his way to that goal he actually was fighting the Russians... but I find that it really, really attempts to lessen the megalomaniac he truly was...
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Raf
Groucho,
It is wrong of you to opine that Wierwille wore a swastika while committing his reprehensible actions.
It's okay, however, to opine what he was thinking when he said we were on the wrong side of WWII.
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Abigail
So communism is wrong in any way shape or form, but fascism by a leader who wipes out millions of people or (for the sake of your perspective) even just thousands of people simply because they are of a particular ethnic, or (again for your sake religious) group is okay? :blink:
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gc
I don't get the arguments by people who claim that Hitler didn't kill the Jews, or that Hitler and Germany didn't kill as many Jews as is being said, or that Hitler killed millions but these people who were killed weren't Jews, or m that Hitler did kill millions, and yes the millions that Hitler killed were Jews, but not REALLY Jews. Not the Jews of the same blood line from the OT. That whole argument sounds pretty ignorant to me. Its all a ploy to side track what was done, the evidences gathered, the first hand eye witnesses of survivors and soldiers who were first to arrive. Hitler thought he was killing Jews! Its old freaking history!
If I heard someone say that the USA fought on the wrong side during WWII, with the knowledge that we have today (and 40 years ago for that matter) of what happened during the war, then I would have to come to the conclusion that they were FOR the killing of millions of people by systematic extermination. Because...
The argument that VP believed we fought on the wrong side during WWII because VP was against communism is the weakest argument I've ever heard. I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected. Who thinks about communism in the face of what happened at the hands of Hitler and the Germans?
gc
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GarthP2000
Uhhh Oldies, ... Hello Oldies?? ..... :unsure:
Do you know the *real* reason Hitler 'fought the Communists', ie., invaded Russia? One word: LAND.
Ever hear about the statement that Hitler/the Nazis used to justify the taking of Austria/Czeckoslovakia/Poland/other countries? Goebbels' 1943 Speech on Total War where he talked about the German people need more "breathing room". Ie., lands taken by conquest for the Third Reich. And yeah, Goebbels also talked about fighting Bolshevism as a defense, yadayada, ... which was basically propaganda on his part using the popular anti-Communist tirade in order to further Hitler's own totalitarian goals.
Ie., he wasn't any better than them, son.
Your loyalty to VeePee has gone to near Smikeol's insanity level. Quite desperate in form and substance in order to protect and maintain whatever thin shred of dignity is left of VPW's reputation, and even that is questionable at best.
Face it chief. The man has had his chance to make something positive of himself and to others. ... He failed. ... Miserably! And the more you defend him, the more evident this appears.
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Abigail
"I'm against crooks, but when I had to cast a vote for a crook or a ex-KKK wizard, I could judge which one was worse, so the damn crook had to be elected."
ROFLMAO
And yet it is so sad at the same time.
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GarthP2000
Oh and keep in mind, you are incorrect that a true facist wouldn't be (or act at least) like a patriot and wouldn't do things like salute the American flag or sign up for the military. As a matter of fact, you go to a good number of these pro-facist sites, and what is one of the prominent things that they have displayed? The American flag.
Not because they are real patriots and value the things that this country stands for, they don't. But saluting/being in favor of the American flag is something that just anybody and his brother can do.
Its what they really stand for when the press/spotlight isn't around that determines where they are really at.
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Tom Strange
gc... I had no idea you were from Louisiana!
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gc
Yeah Tom, the runoff between a crook and a KKK wizard will give it away every time! :B)
But I love my home! :wub:
gc
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templelady
From my time in the Way, from reading TMOTSM and other literature circulating my part of the country in TWI, from TWI"s attitude not only to those outside it's "Walls" but it's attitude toward those of the less fortunate within it's "Walls" YES THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT I THINK
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oldiesman
Golly Mo, that is pretty sick and accusatory thinking.
Now folks are being thought of supporting the killing of Jews and others because of a supposed "attitude" you observed?
Or the books they read?
Gee, that's awefully considerate of you.
My goodness, I wouldn't even label a revisionist himself a supporter of killing Jews and others without solid evidence of same; let alone labelling Wierwille and folks in twi that way. shame shame.
For me to actually believe what you're suggesting I'd have to sit down and have an in-depth conversation with Dr. Wierwille, asking him exactly what he meant, what context, and so forth. Which of course I can't do.
I'm not taking your word for it Groucho, you're just too darn anti-Wierwille and twi for me to think you'd deliver fair, non-accusatory information that is other than your usual all-negative thinking about them.
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oldiesman
Ok now that we know there are some posters who believe Dr. Wierwille was a Nazi who supported the killing of Jews and others in WWII, having no problem wearing his embroidered swastika on his uniform while drugging young girls, may we count you in?
Come on Raffy, let the other shoe drop will ya? I really want to know.
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Tom Strange
thoughts OM?
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WordWolf
OM,
if you review what Raf actually posted-
which you quoted, so you can find it pretty fast-
you can see exactly what he's saying on the subject.
=====
So,
by the change of subject again, Oldiesman,
are you saying that you admit the evidence is overwhelming and monumental
that Hitler set up a plan to kill millions of people including millions of Jews,
then had that plan executed, killing millions of people including millions of Jews?
Or is this just a change of subject dropping in the middle of it again?
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