Those knee jerks have been clamoring against that since day one. And they were led by and were supporters of the Nazis, the KKK, White Supremacy groups, and other related groups who have always whined and moaned about how the whites were so oppressed and/or why whites were placed by God Himself at the top of the racial food chain. Just getting their side 'out on the table' for discussion? I don't think so! If they had their way, those ovens and gas chambers would be turned back on. ...
I think what you've done is put all those who use revisionist facts in the same camp as the KKK.
But not everyone who may want to expose the holocaust as a myth, would necessarily espouse the KKK and like organizations. Maybe there are some, but how do you know which one of them espouses those views?
Would you say that the author of "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" A.R. Butz, espouses KKK ideology or is a white supremist? I don't get that from reading his stuff.
While it may be true KKK and like organizations like to use facts from his book to promote their hate-filled ideology, is that Butz's fault? NO ... But he and others get lumped into one pot it seems.
Just like Willis Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby (where "the Myth of the Six Million" was published). Carto gets labelled a White Supremist, fascist, Anti-Semite .... for communicating his information. But I believe he's about getting what he believes to be the truth out, and evidence indicates he doesn't hate Jews. But, does that stop some from labelling him a Jew hater and fascist? nah..
Here's a quote about Carto from Mark Lane, from his book "Plausible Denial". Lane, who describes Carto as "a true believer in the Constitution", represented Carto in the famous "Hunt v. Liberty Lobby" lawsuit:
I have heard the allegation, over and over again, that Carto is anti-Semitic and pro-fascist. I have heard the courts solemnly state that since it has been said so often that either each new allegation has lost its sting, or must be true, based upon the "where there is smoke there must be fire" theory. I have also heard the eloquent response by Judge Scalia, then of the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia, now a justice of the United States Supreme Court, in the Anderson case:
"We are not yet ready to adopt for the law of libel the principle that 10,000 repetitions are as good as the truth. We see nothing to be said for the rule that a conscious, malicious libel is not actionable so long as it has been preceded by earlier assertions of the same untruth."
Setting aside legal consideration and arguments based upon precedent, I can report my own observation. Carto challenges the power structure, the right of financial institutions, unelected by the people, to rule the nation, whatever their religious or political affiliation may be. No shrinking violet, he speaks openly and without euphemisms. On more than one occasion we have spent the evening sipping Blanton's, a fine Kentucky bourbon, exploring the vagaries of world politics and exchanging world views. I have never heard an anti-Semitic expression from him in all these years. I believe that my own life, marked by a struggle against all forms of racism, has created for me adequately sensitized antennae so that if the offense was present, even in latent form, I would have discerned it.
Here are some selected quotes by Adolph Hitler that may help in understanding why the Jews were persecuted.
"What had to ge reckoned heavily against he Jew in my eyes was when I became acquainted with their activity in the press, art, literature, and the theater. . .And when I learned to look for the Jew in all branches of cultural and artistic life and its various manifestations, I suddenly encountered him in a place where I would least have expected to find him. . . When I recognized the Jew as the leader of the Social Democracy, the scales dropped form my eyes. A long soul struggle had reached its conclusion." (Adolph HItler)
"Gradually, I began to hate them ( the Jews)....For me this was the time of the greatest spiritual upheaval I have ever had to go through, I had ceased to be a weak-kneed cosmopolitan and become an anti-Semite." (Adolph Hitler)
"The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end.......spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce..........He wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate." ( Adolph HItler)
"Was there any form of filth or crime...without at least one Jew involved in it. If you cut even cautiously into such a sore, you find like a maggot in a rotting body, often dazzled by the sudden light - a Jew." ( Adolph Hitler)
"None but members of the nation may be citizens of the State. None but those of German blood may be members of the nation. No Jew, therefore, may be a member of the nation." (Adolph Hitler)
"His is no master people; he is an exploiter: the Jews are a people of robbers. He has never founded any civilisation, though he has destroyed civilisations by the hundred...everything he has stolen. Foreign people, foreign workmen build him his temples, it is foreigners who create and work for him, it is foreigners who shed their blood for him." (Adolph Hitler)
I think these show pretty well that the Nazi persecution against Jews was more racial & socio-political than it was religious.
Like I (and so many other people) said before, all this push for the focus on the Holocaust is so that it never happens again!
That's essentially the same message of the JDL (Jewish Defense League) and members of the "holocaust cult". Their campaign reflects an arrogant view of Jews as being a special and superior people. Why is it that the non-Jewish victims of genocide, oppression and war do not merit the same consideration as do the Holocaust’s Jewish victims? There are no comparable museums, memorials or solemn ceremonies to commemorate, for example, the vastly greater number of victims of Soviet and Chinese Communism.
As historians acknowledge, the non-Jewish victims of Soviet Russian dictator Joseph Stalin greatly outnumber the Jews who perished as a result of Hitler’s policies. Authoritative estimates of the number of Chinese who perished as victims of repression, famine, and forced labor under the Communist regime of Mao Zedong range from about 30 million to more than 60 million.
The Holocaust remembrance campaign deserves scorn, not support because it is an insincere and one-sided effort that serves Israeli interests and bolsters Jewish-Zionist power, an ungodly alliance between Israeli extremists and Christian fundamentalists. Their siren call and amplified bullhorn masks the greater scandal, this peculiar mixture of prophecy and politics.
What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.
My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel—past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.
Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.
Has the power of the Christian Zionists diminished?
I do not think so. Rather, we are seeing how the Christian Zionists, motivated by religious beliefs, are working hand in glove with politically motivated, militant Jewish Zionists around the world. It is the Christian support of Zionism that emboldens Zionists to believe they can dictate to relatively weak and dependent countries such as Austria, whom they may choose as their president.
It is the Christian support of Zionism that allows Manuel Noriega to remain the strongman in Panama, misusing his power, regardless of what harm he causes to the United States, his neighbors, and his people.
It is the Christian support of Zionism that enables the militant Israelis to take over Palestinian homes surrounding the Al-Aqsa mosque in pursuit of their well-documented plan to destroy Jerusalem's most holy Islamic site, sacred to a billion Muslims around the world—one-fifth of humanity.
Christian Zionists and the Iran-Contra Scandal
Remarkably, it was this Christian cult of Israel that brought us the Iran contra scandal, perhaps the most self-destructive act in the history of the United States. Marine Col. Oliver North, the perpetrator of this misguided series of actions, is a Christian Zionist. A born-again charismatic figure, he endeared himself to the militant Israeli Zionists who plotted Iran-contra. "He is more Israeli," said one Jewish general, "than we Israelis." This is often the case. In his zealotry, the Christian Zionist can become more Zionist, more militant, than the Jewish Zionist.
In the Iran-contra hearings, Sen. James McClure (R-ID) explained to North that the US had a stated policy of neutrality in the Iran-Iraq war. That policy differed radically from Israel's policy of selling arms to Iran. Yes, agreed North, the two policies were not the same. The question, to which McClure's efforts yielded no response, then becomes: Why would the US forego its American policy to pursue Israeli policy?
The answer, unfortunately, lies in the belief system of Christian Zionists: They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it.
Another perfect example of a Christian Zionist is Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-HI). Throughout the hearings on the Iran-contra scandal, the Hawaiian kept the focus on the contras and steered determinedly clear of any criticism of Israel. If, in answer to questions, witnesses sought to explain the seminal and continuing role of Israel, Inouye abruptly broke off the line of questioning that had led the hearings to this unwanted destination.
Despite the political problems created by its lay practitioners and the scandals that rocked some of its TV ministries, this belief system—this cult of Israel—has not been diminished.
Indeed, I hold that Christian Zionism threatens not just the lives of Palestinians and other Arabs, but the very existence of the United States. Because of the cult of Israel, we have become a nation that does not have its own Middle East policy, but the policy the government of Israel tells us to have.
Despite the terrifying aspects of the alliance of militant Christians with militant Jewish Zionists, I find some encouraging developments. In my visits to colleges, clubs, and churches around the country, I have found strong support for the message and warning in Prophecy and Politics. It has come not only from liberal congregations, but from across the whole spectrum of Christianity, including those Christians who call themselves fundamentalists. These supporters see Christ as the bearer to humanity of God's message of peace, brotherhood, love, and reconciliation. These Christians do not endorse either the cult of Israel or its killings and beatings of Palestinians.
I have found many such Christians in my frequent visits to my home state of Texas. There and all over this slowly-awakening land of ours, I have found a small but increasing number of ministers and lay people who are deeply alarmed by the cult of Israel and willing to stand up and speak out about it.
--------------------------
Grace Halsell's book,Prophecy and Politics. The Secret Alliance Between Israel and the US Christian Right is available through the AET Book Club Catalog to readers of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
(This article was adapted by author Grace Halsell from her speech at the North American Regional Non-Governmental Symposium on the Question of Palestine held in June 1988 at the United Nations headquarters in New York.)
Disclaimer: Not all the opinions held by Grace Halsell are indicative or represent my belief/opinions, but have highlighted aspects where we do agree.
When I mentioned my agreement with "that it does not happen again", I was referring exclusively to the holocaust event itself, not to any perceived interpretation of the Jews being more worthy of consideration than anyone else.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that the holocaust (extermination) of Jews and others because of religion is included in the purpose of the Weisenthal Center, and like anti-holocaust groups. Outside of the Neo-nazi groups rants and fits, I have never heard an inkling that the Jews *only* want for their group to be protected and no consideration to be shown to others extermination. They are against any kind of holocaust, be it against Jews or against any other ethnic group or people. I think that they are specifically focusing on the Holocaust in Germany because it provides a textbook example of what that kind of inhuman activity is all about. The holocaust under Stalin and Mao are likewise spoken against, and yes, even by the Weisenthal Center and other anti-holocaust activists.
You mention that there are no memorials commemorating the victims under Stalin, Mao, and like Communist dictators. ... And you blame that upon the Jews/anti-holocaust activists? What's preventing you or other revisionis---err I mean anti-Communist holocaust activists from setting one up? Why hasn't any of the conservative groups that you do agree with, who do have a lot of money and resources set that kind of memorial up? Why not direct this question towards them, hmmmm?
If this 'awakening' you mention is of Americans embracing the revisionist history in dismissing the full reality of the Holocaust, ... to put it mildly in terms you can relate to, "God help us all!" So spare us!
This is clearly the kind of garbage that Penn & Teller would undoubtedly label "Bullsh it!"
You aren't really debating with WTH. But with Mark Weber and Grace Haskell
Almost everything WTH posted was cut and pasted from the Internet.
The only words in that entire post that were possibly WTH's were:
"That's essentially the same message of the JDL (Jewish Defense League) and members of the "holocaust cult".
From there to the bold in the first paragraph is plagairised word for word from an essay by Mark Weber, director of the "Institute for Historical Review."
Everything from the bold part of his first paragraph through the third paragraph were cut and pasted from another essay by Mark Weber, and was written for the Mehr news agency of Iran.
You aren't really debating with WTH. But with Mark Weber and Grace Haskell
Actually, I feel like I'm debating with a wall.
No original thought by WTH whatosever .....
((sigh)) so true, so true .....
Updated information, from the Wiki link thazt Goey provided:
Beginning in 1979, IHR publicly offered a reward of $50,000 for verifiable "proof that gas chambers for the purpose of killing human beings existed at or in Auschwitz." This money (and an additional $40,000) was eventually paid in 1985 to Auschwitz survivor Mel Mermelstein, who sued the IHR for breach of contract for initially ignoring his evidence (a signed testimony of his experiences in Auschwitz). As a result of Mermelstein's case, a U.S. Superior Court in California declared the Holocaust an indisputable legal fact.
I got a BIG laugh out of that one. 'Indisputable legal fact' as verified and determined in a court of law!
This also goes to show that when you make a bet, best not to welch out on it.
Is it still a myth if "only" 250,000 or 1 million or 2.5 million were slaughtered? ...isn't it still a holocaust???
Tom, I don't know if your question was just rhetorical, but I'll respond anyway. I believe the heart of the controversy lies not in whether Jews and others died a horrible death, of course they did and Nazi's are still responsible for that and are still racist and all .... but, whether or not it was an intentional, systematic, planned, event by Hitler and Co. This is the heart of the controversy and some folks want to dispute that...
Butz disputes the usual understanding of what the Final Solution was, when he writes from his book:
The "Final Solution" spoken of in the German documents was a program of evacuation, resettlement and deportation of Jews with the ultimate objective of expulsion from Europe. During the war Jews of various nationalities were being moved east, as one stage in this Final Solution. The legend claims that the motion was mainly for extermination purposes.
Okay, I was going to ignore this, but what the hell . . . . . .
"Why is it that the non-Jewish victims of genocide, oppression and war do not merit the same consideration as do the Holocaust’s Jewish victims? There are no comparable museums, memorials or solemn ceremonies to commemorate, for example, the vastly greater number of victims of Soviet and Chinese Communism"
1. Because apparently no one has bothered to organize and gather funding for such memorials? Why? I don't know - why haven't you?
"The Holocaust remembrance campaign deserves scorn, not support because it is an insincere and one-sided effort that serves Israeli interests and bolsters Jewish-Zionist power, an ungodly alliance between Israeli extremists and Christian fundamentalists. Their siren call and amplified bullhorn masks the greater scandal, this peculiar mixture of prophecy and politics."
Here I see an opinion, but absolutly no supporting facts to back it up. Therefore, it carries no weight with me.
"What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." "
Which 'Christian Zionists' have said this? Can you provide me with links to the quotes? Just who are the 'Christian Zionists'?
Don't misunderstand - I get the concept and am not refuting that there are those who hold beliefs similar to what the author propounds - but I am questioning who they are, what positions of power they hold, how many of them there are, etc.
"The answer, unfortunately, lies in the belief system of Christian Zionists: They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it. "
Again I see an opinion, but no facts to support it. In fact - it would seem to me that lying, theft, and murder would all be contradictory to any Christian faith. Therefore, I would suggest such things may be motivated out political and monetary gain, but find it unlikely they are motivated out of a Christian belief system.
"Indeed, I hold that Christian Zionism threatens not just the lives of Palestinians and other Arabs, but the very existence of the United States. Because of the cult of Israel, we have become a nation that does not have its own Middle East policy, but the policy the government of Israel tells us to have. "
I find it interesting that the author uses the derogatory term "cult" in reference to Israel, but not in reference to the "Christian Zionists". I find it even more interesting that Israel is being blamed for what the "Christian Zionists" of their own free will choose to do. Sounds like a little rascism creeping in to me. Sounds like there me be another agenda here beyond exposing the truth. . . .
"These Christians do not endorse either the cult of Israel or its killings and beatings of Palestinians. "
Would these be the very same Christian organizations who would like to see the Muslem relgion wiped from the face of this earth?
And while I do not support the killings and beatings of Palestinians, I do not support the Palestinians suicide bombings of Israel citizens either.
I think our country as well as England did a great disservice in how they handled the Palestinian nation in the aftermath of WWII. However, I think blaming all of this on the Jews and/or 'Christian Zionists' does absolutely nothing to further the goal of peace in the middle east. If anything, it futher polarizes the issue and promotes yet more bloodshed on all sides.
"Butz disputes the usual understanding of what the Final Solution was, when he writes from his book:
QUOTE
The "Final Solution" spoken of in the German documents was a program of evacuation, resettlement and deportation of Jews with the ultimate objective of expulsion from Europe. During the war Jews of various nationalities were being moved east, as one stage in this Final Solution. The legend claims that the motion was mainly for extermination purposes."
Oldies - have you ever spoken with anyone who was a survivor of a concentration camp? Because I have family members who are such survivors. Therefore, when I say the extermination was taking place, that the Jews weren't simplpy being 'moved east' I can say so, because I heard it from 'the horses mouth'.
Mo, I think we are straining nats. The Hebrew/Jewish people have by and large always been somewhat nomadic. Even when they had a "homeland" they couldn't hang on to it! And so yes, we are spread out all over the world. Yet, it was done via communities.
By and large Jewish people did not marry outside their faith until the 1970's and later. Heck, even my own family, which was far from orthodox, did not marry non-Jews until my generation. Now, were there converts, yes? Were there those who did take wives from outside the 12 tribes? Sure, the Bible makes that quite plain. But there were also many who did not.
So there are probably those who have fairly pure bloodlines and there are probably those who have no "Jewish DNA" (for lack of a better term) in their bloodlines. But in either case - you will find that even modern day Jews see it as both an ethnicity and a religion. In fact, you will find there are Jewish people who gather on at temples not for religious reasons, but for cultural ones.
"In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews of central and eastern Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazi Jews were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have identified certain haplotypes in Y-Chromosome and mitochondrial studies that have high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population."
"But since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths. Jews have also adopted children from around the world and raised them as Jews. Conversion to Judaism, rare for nearly 1500 years, has once again become common. Jewish women and families that choose artifical insemination often choose a biological father who is not Jewish, to avoid common autosomal recessive genetic diseases. Orthodox religous authorities actually encourage this, because of the danger that a Jewish donor could be a momzer. Thus, the concept of Ashkenazi Jews as a distinct ethnic people, especially in ways that can be defined genetically or ancestrally, has also blurred considerably"
The genetic disease is called Tay-Sachs. It is found not only primarily in Ashkenazi Jews, but most specifically those from a particular tribe (I can't recall now if it is Reuben or Benjamin).
You may also keep in mind that of the 12 tribes - the Bible deals largely only with two of them (Judah and Benjamin) and what became of the rest is not entirely known, although theories abound.
I feel sure the Way's "wonderful Research Department" will come out with a book soon that indicates that only 5,999,999 Jews were annihiliated. That's the kind of "groundbreaking" research I expect from them these days ...
I feel sure the Way's "wonderful Research Department" will come out with a book soon that indicates that only 5,999,999 Jews were annihiliated. That's the kind of "groundbreaking" research I expect from them these days ...
See? See?!? Told ya there wasn't 6 million killed!
I do genealogical research in a couple of parts of Germany. One thing I do often is scroll through various microfilms and microfiche of town registrations, court records and church records from the period 1750-1930 which I order from the LDS libraries.
The town registrations are of great interest to me because they provide a wealth of information for my purposes. Contained in them are all the names in a household, their relationship to each other, the address they dwell at, their religion, job and employer, birthplace, and generally, notation of military service completed. Often, by watching for nearby housenumbers, I can locate additional relatives. When a person moved from the town, that also is recorded and where they moved to.
Often times, these microfilms are not allowed to be ordered from within Germany (part of the agreement the LDS church gave for the privilege of filming the books. Even today there is often a sensitivity by Germans about anyone knowing their family history/ family trees. (It is loosening some now, but in my limited past has been an issue several times)
The Church records (I have only examined Evangelical Lutheran records) contain birth, baptism and marriages. The names and towns of those present at a baptism, the names and residence of the "godparents", are in the baptism/christening records. For marriages, the name of the bride, groom and their parents and witnesses are listed, and how many siblings the couple each have. i.e. groom: johann Deutscher, the third son of Simon and Christiana Deutscher. I have no reason to think that the synagogue records have less information.
Using these records, when put together, it would not have been difficult for the SS to find all the members of a jewish family, for generations back. My grandfather engineered bridges that the Allied forces used as theydrove into Germany. and Dachau and Auschwitz. There was never any doubt in HIS mind as to what dastardly uses the showers and ovens were put to.
"Whether you agree or not, it is a discussion well worth having and one that should not be shut down before it can start by unfair accusations of ''anti-Semitism.'' In a very equal sense, none of this is academic. The Israel lobby was overwhelmingly in favor of starting the war with Iraq and is now among the leading hawks on Iran. "
Of course they are - because they face the greatest risk of being attacked by these countries. If England were at the greatest risk, for example, then they would be the ones who were overwhelmingly in favor of starting the war - I see this as a no brainer statement that is somewhat misleading. But I would dare say the United States is perhaps a close second. In either case, I guess I feel that because the U.S. played such a HUGE role in creating this mess in the middle east in the first place, we are obligated to try to clean it up in some fashion. Not that I am a proponent of war mind you, as I was opposed to the war on Iraq in the first place.
Abigail, I don't think the U.S. played such a huge role in all of this... if you really want to blame a past country you could historically blame the Brits, who through their "British Mandate of Palestine" created this mess.
We, as Americans, are now involved, because of globalists in our country who got us involved and are trying to keep us involved. (And I do not believe this is a "Jewish Globalist Conspiracy"... but, there ARE Globalists out there... Jewish and otherwise.)
If they ARE Jewish, so what?... it is the "globalist" part I'm most concerned about.
But I suppose there is this idea out there that we must continue to "pay for the sins of our forefathers" and therefore acquiese to the continued support of Israel and Zionism. Well, I just disagree with this concept as a freedom loving American who wants to get out of these deadly entanglements with other countries.
Rather, I'd invite all Jews here (did somebody mention the State of Texas? :) ) so we can save huge amounts of money and lives. By getting ourselves "untangled" we'd be saving huge amounts of money, and lives (saving lives of Americans getting killed in future battles with middle easterners here, and abroad.)
There is so much difference between what happened at Dresden (which was done as a part of a declared war) and the Jewish holocaust (in which they were attempted to be exterminated as a race/people), that it isn't even funny. No comparison at all.
There is so much difference between what happened at Dresden (which was done as a part of a declared war) and the Jewish holocaust (in which they were attempted to be exterminated as a race/people), that it isn't even funny. No comparison at all.
I'm a little astounded that you didn't see the similarity of fateful and callous decisions of these madmen.
If that is an accurate article I would condemn that, the Dresden bombing, as well.
But we are talking about the Holocaust here, and I know that's another 'war atrocity' but what point are you trying to make OM? That "we" can also be guilty of such an act of horror? I don't think you need to prove that... it's mankind that is capable and only mankind that can stop it.
Both were atrocities, however Churchill's motives might have been rationalized as honorable. Perhaps that is the reason that the holocaust keeps getting 'brought up'. In the case of Dresden, it could get muddied by the "it was war" argument... there is no argument for the holocaust.
No "specific" point by bringing up Dresden, just thought about it when I saw that view of Manhattan and thought about the atrocities of war.
We seem to be commenting on two issues on this thread... one, the holocaust of Jews and whether it was planned and real, systemitized, etc. Second, does the continuous reminder of the Jewish holocaust have a political agenda, i.e., eventual goal of keeping the U.S. in full support of Israel and Zionist causes?
I take another look at that Manhattan skyline, and wonder if Manhattan will ever really be exposed to a nuclear weapon, wiping all of it out, because of continued U.S. support/promise to protect the safety of Israel. It's scary.
"Abigail, I don't think the U.S. played such a huge role in all of this... if you really want to blame a past country you could historically blame the Brits, who through their "British Mandate of Palestine" created this mess.
We, as Americans, are now involved, because of globalists in our country who got us involved and are trying to keep us involved. (And I do not believe this is a "Jewish Globalist Conspiracy"... but, there ARE Globalists out there... Jewish and otherwise.) "
I am aware of the history and the "British Mandate of Palestine". I am also aware that the U.S. put its share of pressure on the British to do what they did.
The U.S. is not "now" involved because of . . . The U.S. has been involved since the beginning, and the reasoning wasn't Globalization. If you read the history you will find that a number of high powered politicians, including the then President, supported the concept of a Jewish Israel for Christian based religious reasons. I said earlier that to some extent I agreed with WTH on that issue - though I fail to understand why Jewish people are blamed for what the Christians believe and do.
"But I suppose there is this idea out there that we must continue to "pay for the sins of our forefathers" and therefore acquiese to the continued support of Israel and Zionism. Well, I just disagree with this concept as a freedom loving American who wants to get out of these deadly entanglements with other countries.
Rather, I'd invite all Jews here (did somebody mention the State of Texas? ) so we can save huge amounts of money and lives."
I do not believe that is a feasable or even reasonable solution. 1) Given the history of persecution COMBINED with the continued efforts of anti-semites, I think it would be damned foolish to put all of the Jews in one place. In other words, I believe our traditions/beliefs have a better chance of survival if we are spread out around the world. 2) I think you would be hard pressed to convince all of the Jews to move to any one location, as many are perfectly happy where they are. 3) As I believe we created the mess in Iraq and are therefore obligated to see the mess through to a conclusion, so I believe we played a substantial role in creating the mess in Israel/Palestine and are therefore morally obligated to play a role in the solution.
With regard to the link you posted - I will get back to you on that, because I prefer to do some further research before forming and opinion.
according to that, there were nine times as many allied civilian deaths as axis deaths. Germany seemed to believe in a terrorist sort of war ... wiping out everyone ... like Poland especially. The buzz bombs sent to London were mostly terror weapons I think. Perhaps Dresden was partly an answer to that ... I don't know. But ... 9 times as many civilians were killed by axis forces, just to keep the "both sides were run by madmen" comment in perspective. And it was the German population that supported the German war machine's atrocities ... not quite as innocent as the Londoners.
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I think what you've done is put all those who use revisionist facts in the same camp as the KKK.
But not everyone who may want to expose the holocaust as a myth, would necessarily espouse the KKK and like organizations. Maybe there are some, but how do you know which one of them espouses those views?
Would you say that the author of "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" A.R. Butz, espouses KKK ideology or is a white supremist? I don't get that from reading his stuff.
While it may be true KKK and like organizations like to use facts from his book to promote their hate-filled ideology, is that Butz's fault? NO ... But he and others get lumped into one pot it seems.
Just like Willis Carto, founder of Liberty Lobby (where "the Myth of the Six Million" was published). Carto gets labelled a White Supremist, fascist, Anti-Semite .... for communicating his information. But I believe he's about getting what he believes to be the truth out, and evidence indicates he doesn't hate Jews. But, does that stop some from labelling him a Jew hater and fascist? nah..
Here's a quote about Carto from Mark Lane, from his book "Plausible Denial". Lane, who describes Carto as "a true believer in the Constitution", represented Carto in the famous "Hunt v. Liberty Lobby" lawsuit:
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Tom Strange
Is it still a myth if "only" 250,000 or 1 million or 2.5 million were slaughtered? ...isn't it still a holocaust???
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Goey
Mo,
Here are some selected quotes by Adolph Hitler that may help in understanding why the Jews were persecuted.
I think these show pretty well that the Nazi persecution against Jews was more racial & socio-political than it was religious.
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What The Hey
That's essentially the same message of the JDL (Jewish Defense League) and members of the "holocaust cult". Their campaign reflects an arrogant view of Jews as being a special and superior people. Why is it that the non-Jewish victims of genocide, oppression and war do not merit the same consideration as do the Holocaust’s Jewish victims? There are no comparable museums, memorials or solemn ceremonies to commemorate, for example, the vastly greater number of victims of Soviet and Chinese Communism.
As historians acknowledge, the non-Jewish victims of Soviet Russian dictator Joseph Stalin greatly outnumber the Jews who perished as a result of Hitler’s policies. Authoritative estimates of the number of Chinese who perished as victims of repression, famine, and forced labor under the Communist regime of Mao Zedong range from about 30 million to more than 60 million.
The Holocaust remembrance campaign deserves scorn, not support because it is an insincere and one-sided effort that serves Israeli interests and bolsters Jewish-Zionist power, an ungodly alliance between Israeli extremists and Christian fundamentalists. Their siren call and amplified bullhorn masks the greater scandal, this peculiar mixture of prophecy and politics.
As Grace Halsell further explains: (this was taken from the IHR website: Israeli Extremists and Christian Fundamentalists: The Alliance)
What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." This includes the invasion of Lebanon, which killed or injured an estimated 100,000 Lebanese and Palestinians, most of them civilians; the bombing of sovereign nations such as Iraq; the deliberate, methodical brutalizing of the Palestinians—breaking bones, shooting children, and demolishing homes; and the expulsion of Palestinian Christians and Muslims from a land they have occupied for over 2,000 years.
My premise in Prophecy and Politics is that Christian Zionism is a dangerous and growing segment of Christianity, which was popularized by the 19th-century American Cyrus Scofield when he wrote into a Bible his interpretation of events in history. These events all centered around Israel—past, present, and future. His Scofield Bible is today the most popular of the reference Bibles.
Scofield said that Christ cannot return to earth until certain events occur: The Jews must return to Palestine, gain control of Jerusalem and rebuild a temple, and then we all must engage in the final, great battle called Armageddon. Estimates vary, but most students of Armageddon theology agree that as a result of these relatively recent interpretations of Biblical scripture, 10 to 40 million Americans believe Palestine is God's chosen land for the Jews.
Has the power of the Christian Zionists diminished?
I do not think so. Rather, we are seeing how the Christian Zionists, motivated by religious beliefs, are working hand in glove with politically motivated, militant Jewish Zionists around the world. It is the Christian support of Zionism that emboldens Zionists to believe they can dictate to relatively weak and dependent countries such as Austria, whom they may choose as their president.
It is the Christian support of Zionism that allows Manuel Noriega to remain the strongman in Panama, misusing his power, regardless of what harm he causes to the United States, his neighbors, and his people.
It is the Christian support of Zionism that enables the militant Israelis to take over Palestinian homes surrounding the Al-Aqsa mosque in pursuit of their well-documented plan to destroy Jerusalem's most holy Islamic site, sacred to a billion Muslims around the world—one-fifth of humanity.
Christian Zionists and the Iran-Contra Scandal
Remarkably, it was this Christian cult of Israel that brought us the Iran contra scandal, perhaps the most self-destructive act in the history of the United States. Marine Col. Oliver North, the perpetrator of this misguided series of actions, is a Christian Zionist. A born-again charismatic figure, he endeared himself to the militant Israeli Zionists who plotted Iran-contra. "He is more Israeli," said one Jewish general, "than we Israelis." This is often the case. In his zealotry, the Christian Zionist can become more Zionist, more militant, than the Jewish Zionist.
In the Iran-contra hearings, Sen. James McClure (R-ID) explained to North that the US had a stated policy of neutrality in the Iran-Iraq war. That policy differed radically from Israel's policy of selling arms to Iran. Yes, agreed North, the two policies were not the same. The question, to which McClure's efforts yielded no response, then becomes: Why would the US forego its American policy to pursue Israeli policy?
The answer, unfortunately, lies in the belief system of Christian Zionists: They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it.
Another perfect example of a Christian Zionist is Sen. Daniel Inouye (D-HI). Throughout the hearings on the Iran-contra scandal, the Hawaiian kept the focus on the contras and steered determinedly clear of any criticism of Israel. If, in answer to questions, witnesses sought to explain the seminal and continuing role of Israel, Inouye abruptly broke off the line of questioning that had led the hearings to this unwanted destination.
Despite the political problems created by its lay practitioners and the scandals that rocked some of its TV ministries, this belief system—this cult of Israel—has not been diminished.
Indeed, I hold that Christian Zionism threatens not just the lives of Palestinians and other Arabs, but the very existence of the United States. Because of the cult of Israel, we have become a nation that does not have its own Middle East policy, but the policy the government of Israel tells us to have.
Despite the terrifying aspects of the alliance of militant Christians with militant Jewish Zionists, I find some encouraging developments. In my visits to colleges, clubs, and churches around the country, I have found strong support for the message and warning in Prophecy and Politics. It has come not only from liberal congregations, but from across the whole spectrum of Christianity, including those Christians who call themselves fundamentalists. These supporters see Christ as the bearer to humanity of God's message of peace, brotherhood, love, and reconciliation. These Christians do not endorse either the cult of Israel or its killings and beatings of Palestinians.
I have found many such Christians in my frequent visits to my home state of Texas. There and all over this slowly-awakening land of ours, I have found a small but increasing number of ministers and lay people who are deeply alarmed by the cult of Israel and willing to stand up and speak out about it.
--------------------------
Grace Halsell's book,Prophecy and Politics. The Secret Alliance Between Israel and the US Christian Right is available through the AET Book Club Catalog to readers of the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.
(This article was adapted by author Grace Halsell from her speech at the North American Regional Non-Governmental Symposium on the Question of Palestine held in June 1988 at the United Nations headquarters in New York.)
Disclaimer: Not all the opinions held by Grace Halsell are indicative or represent my belief/opinions, but have highlighted aspects where we do agree.
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GarthP2000
WTF,
When I mentioned my agreement with "that it does not happen again", I was referring exclusively to the holocaust event itself, not to any perceived interpretation of the Jews being more worthy of consideration than anyone else.
As a matter of fact, I do believe that the holocaust (extermination) of Jews and others because of religion is included in the purpose of the Weisenthal Center, and like anti-holocaust groups. Outside of the Neo-nazi groups rants and fits, I have never heard an inkling that the Jews *only* want for their group to be protected and no consideration to be shown to others extermination. They are against any kind of holocaust, be it against Jews or against any other ethnic group or people. I think that they are specifically focusing on the Holocaust in Germany because it provides a textbook example of what that kind of inhuman activity is all about. The holocaust under Stalin and Mao are likewise spoken against, and yes, even by the Weisenthal Center and other anti-holocaust activists.
You mention that there are no memorials commemorating the victims under Stalin, Mao, and like Communist dictators. ... And you blame that upon the Jews/anti-holocaust activists? What's preventing you or other revisionis---err I mean anti-Communist holocaust activists from setting one up? Why hasn't any of the conservative groups that you do agree with, who do have a lot of money and resources set that kind of memorial up? Why not direct this question towards them, hmmmm?
If this 'awakening' you mention is of Americans embracing the revisionist history in dismissing the full reality of the Holocaust, ... to put it mildly in terms you can relate to, "God help us all!" So spare us!
This is clearly the kind of garbage that Penn & Teller would undoubtedly label "Bullsh it!"
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templelady
I stand educated for Hitler's purpowses Jewish was as much etnnicity as Religion
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Goey
Garth,
You aren't really debating with WTH. But with Mark Weber and Grace Haskell
Almost everything WTH posted was cut and pasted from the Internet.
The only words in that entire post that were possibly WTH's were:
From there to the bold in the first paragraph is plagairised word for word from an essay by Mark Weber, director of the "Institute for Historical Review."
Everything from the bold part of his first paragraph through the third paragraph were cut and pasted from another essay by Mark Weber, and was written for the Mehr news agency of Iran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review
The rest is cut and pasted from Grace Haskell (as he noted).
No original thought by WTH whatosever .....
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GarthP2000
((sigh)) so true, so true .....
Updated information, from the Wiki link thazt Goey provided:
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oldiesman
Tom, I don't know if your question was just rhetorical, but I'll respond anyway. I believe the heart of the controversy lies not in whether Jews and others died a horrible death, of course they did and Nazi's are still responsible for that and are still racist and all .... but, whether or not it was an intentional, systematic, planned, event by Hitler and Co. This is the heart of the controversy and some folks want to dispute that...
Butz disputes the usual understanding of what the Final Solution was, when he writes from his book:
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Abigail
Okay, I was going to ignore this, but what the hell . . . . . .
"Why is it that the non-Jewish victims of genocide, oppression and war do not merit the same consideration as do the Holocaust’s Jewish victims? There are no comparable museums, memorials or solemn ceremonies to commemorate, for example, the vastly greater number of victims of Soviet and Chinese Communism"
1. Because apparently no one has bothered to organize and gather funding for such memorials? Why? I don't know - why haven't you?
"The Holocaust remembrance campaign deserves scorn, not support because it is an insincere and one-sided effort that serves Israeli interests and bolsters Jewish-Zionist power, an ungodly alliance between Israeli extremists and Christian fundamentalists. Their siren call and amplified bullhorn masks the greater scandal, this peculiar mixture of prophecy and politics."
Here I see an opinion, but absolutly no supporting facts to back it up. Therefore, it carries no weight with me.
"What is the message of the Christian Zionist? Simply stated it is this: Every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised by the rest of us.
"Never mind what Israel does," say the Christian Zionists. "God wants this to happen." "
Which 'Christian Zionists' have said this? Can you provide me with links to the quotes? Just who are the 'Christian Zionists'?
Don't misunderstand - I get the concept and am not refuting that there are those who hold beliefs similar to what the author propounds - but I am questioning who they are, what positions of power they hold, how many of them there are, etc.
"The answer, unfortunately, lies in the belief system of Christian Zionists: They believe that what Israel wants is what God wants. Therefore, it is perfectly acceptable to give the green light to whatever it is Israel wants and then conceal this from the American people. Anything, including lies, theft, even murder, is justified as long as Israel wants it. "
Again I see an opinion, but no facts to support it. In fact - it would seem to me that lying, theft, and murder would all be contradictory to any Christian faith. Therefore, I would suggest such things may be motivated out political and monetary gain, but find it unlikely they are motivated out of a Christian belief system.
"Indeed, I hold that Christian Zionism threatens not just the lives of Palestinians and other Arabs, but the very existence of the United States. Because of the cult of Israel, we have become a nation that does not have its own Middle East policy, but the policy the government of Israel tells us to have. "
I find it interesting that the author uses the derogatory term "cult" in reference to Israel, but not in reference to the "Christian Zionists". I find it even more interesting that Israel is being blamed for what the "Christian Zionists" of their own free will choose to do. Sounds like a little rascism creeping in to me. Sounds like there me be another agenda here beyond exposing the truth. . . .
"These Christians do not endorse either the cult of Israel or its killings and beatings of Palestinians. "
Would these be the very same Christian organizations who would like to see the Muslem relgion wiped from the face of this earth?
And while I do not support the killings and beatings of Palestinians, I do not support the Palestinians suicide bombings of Israel citizens either.
I think our country as well as England did a great disservice in how they handled the Palestinian nation in the aftermath of WWII. However, I think blaming all of this on the Jews and/or 'Christian Zionists' does absolutely nothing to further the goal of peace in the middle east. If anything, it futher polarizes the issue and promotes yet more bloodshed on all sides.
"Butz disputes the usual understanding of what the Final Solution was, when he writes from his book:
QUOTE
The "Final Solution" spoken of in the German documents was a program of evacuation, resettlement and deportation of Jews with the ultimate objective of expulsion from Europe. During the war Jews of various nationalities were being moved east, as one stage in this Final Solution. The legend claims that the motion was mainly for extermination purposes."
Oldies - have you ever spoken with anyone who was a survivor of a concentration camp? Because I have family members who are such survivors. Therefore, when I say the extermination was taking place, that the Jews weren't simplpy being 'moved east' I can say so, because I heard it from 'the horses mouth'.
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GarthP2000
Sounds to me like 'Butz' is appropriately named.
<_<
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templelady
Abigial -back to what we were discussing earlier--Just to clarify an earlier post
Paul was from Tarsus (Turkish)
Priscilla was from Corinth (Greekl)
Aquila was originally from Rome(Italian)
So even then it appears it was about both ethniciity and religion
The more things change......
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Abigail
Mo, I think we are straining nats. The Hebrew/Jewish people have by and large always been somewhat nomadic. Even when they had a "homeland" they couldn't hang on to it! And so yes, we are spread out all over the world. Yet, it was done via communities.
By and large Jewish people did not marry outside their faith until the 1970's and later. Heck, even my own family, which was far from orthodox, did not marry non-Jews until my generation. Now, were there converts, yes? Were there those who did take wives from outside the 12 tribes? Sure, the Bible makes that quite plain. But there were also many who did not.
So there are probably those who have fairly pure bloodlines and there are probably those who have no "Jewish DNA" (for lack of a better term) in their bloodlines. But in either case - you will find that even modern day Jews see it as both an ethnicity and a religion. In fact, you will find there are Jewish people who gather on at temples not for religious reasons, but for cultural ones.
Here's some more information from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi:
"In an ethnic sense, an Ashkenazi Jew is one whose ancestry can be traced to the Jews of central and eastern Europe. For roughly a thousand years, the Ashkenazi Jews were a reproductively isolated population in Europe, despite living in many countries, with little inflow or outflow from migration, conversion, or intermarriage with other groups, including other Jews. Human geneticists have identified certain haplotypes in Y-Chromosome and mitochondrial studies that have high frequencies among Ashkenazi Jews, but not in the general European population."
"But since the middle of the 20th century, many Ashkenazi Jews have intermarried, both with members of other Jewish communities and with people of other nations and faiths. Jews have also adopted children from around the world and raised them as Jews. Conversion to Judaism, rare for nearly 1500 years, has once again become common. Jewish women and families that choose artifical insemination often choose a biological father who is not Jewish, to avoid common autosomal recessive genetic diseases. Orthodox religous authorities actually encourage this, because of the danger that a Jewish donor could be a momzer. Thus, the concept of Ashkenazi Jews as a distinct ethnic people, especially in ways that can be defined genetically or ancestrally, has also blurred considerably"
The genetic disease is called Tay-Sachs. It is found not only primarily in Ashkenazi Jews, but most specifically those from a particular tribe (I can't recall now if it is Reuben or Benjamin).
You may also keep in mind that of the 12 tribes - the Bible deals largely only with two of them (Judah and Benjamin) and what became of the rest is not entirely known, although theories abound.
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DogLover
I feel sure the Way's "wonderful Research Department" will come out with a book soon that indicates that only 5,999,999 Jews were annihiliated. That's the kind of "groundbreaking" research I expect from them these days ...
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GarthP2000
See? See?!? Told ya there wasn't 6 million killed!
(tongue planted firmly in cheek)
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HAPe4me
I do genealogical research in a couple of parts of Germany. One thing I do often is scroll through various microfilms and microfiche of town registrations, court records and church records from the period 1750-1930 which I order from the LDS libraries.
The town registrations are of great interest to me because they provide a wealth of information for my purposes. Contained in them are all the names in a household, their relationship to each other, the address they dwell at, their religion, job and employer, birthplace, and generally, notation of military service completed. Often, by watching for nearby housenumbers, I can locate additional relatives. When a person moved from the town, that also is recorded and where they moved to.
Often times, these microfilms are not allowed to be ordered from within Germany (part of the agreement the LDS church gave for the privilege of filming the books. Even today there is often a sensitivity by Germans about anyone knowing their family history/ family trees. (It is loosening some now, but in my limited past has been an issue several times)
The Church records (I have only examined Evangelical Lutheran records) contain birth, baptism and marriages. The names and towns of those present at a baptism, the names and residence of the "godparents", are in the baptism/christening records. For marriages, the name of the bride, groom and their parents and witnesses are listed, and how many siblings the couple each have. i.e. groom: johann Deutscher, the third son of Simon and Christiana Deutscher. I have no reason to think that the synagogue records have less information.
Using these records, when put together, it would not have been difficult for the SS to find all the members of a jewish family, for generations back. My grandfather engineered bridges that the Allied forces used as theydrove into Germany. and Dachau and Auschwitz. There was never any doubt in HIS mind as to what dastardly uses the showers and ovens were put to.
~HAP
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oldiesman
Abigail, I don't think the U.S. played such a huge role in all of this... if you really want to blame a past country you could historically blame the Brits, who through their "British Mandate of Palestine" created this mess.
We, as Americans, are now involved, because of globalists in our country who got us involved and are trying to keep us involved. (And I do not believe this is a "Jewish Globalist Conspiracy"... but, there ARE Globalists out there... Jewish and otherwise.)
If they ARE Jewish, so what?... it is the "globalist" part I'm most concerned about.
But I suppose there is this idea out there that we must continue to "pay for the sins of our forefathers" and therefore acquiese to the continued support of Israel and Zionism. Well, I just disagree with this concept as a freedom loving American who wants to get out of these deadly entanglements with other countries.
Rather, I'd invite all Jews here (did somebody mention the State of Texas? :) ) so we can save huge amounts of money and lives. By getting ourselves "untangled" we'd be saving huge amounts of money, and lives (saving lives of Americans getting killed in future battles with middle easterners here, and abroad.)
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oldiesman
dmiller, it wasn't 8 million, but have you heard of the Dresden tale?
Dresden Holocaust by Churchill
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GarthP2000
There is so much difference between what happened at Dresden (which was done as a part of a declared war) and the Jewish holocaust (in which they were attempted to be exterminated as a race/people), that it isn't even funny. No comparison at all.
That wasn't even a nice try, Oldies.
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oldiesman
I'm a little astounded that you didn't see the similarity of fateful and callous decisions of these madmen.
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Tom Strange
If that is an accurate article I would condemn that, the Dresden bombing, as well.
But we are talking about the Holocaust here, and I know that's another 'war atrocity' but what point are you trying to make OM? That "we" can also be guilty of such an act of horror? I don't think you need to prove that... it's mankind that is capable and only mankind that can stop it.
Both were atrocities, however Churchill's motives might have been rationalized as honorable. Perhaps that is the reason that the holocaust keeps getting 'brought up'. In the case of Dresden, it could get muddied by the "it was war" argument... there is no argument for the holocaust.
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oldiesman
No "specific" point by bringing up Dresden, just thought about it when I saw that view of Manhattan and thought about the atrocities of war.
We seem to be commenting on two issues on this thread... one, the holocaust of Jews and whether it was planned and real, systemitized, etc. Second, does the continuous reminder of the Jewish holocaust have a political agenda, i.e., eventual goal of keeping the U.S. in full support of Israel and Zionist causes?
I take another look at that Manhattan skyline, and wonder if Manhattan will ever really be exposed to a nuclear weapon, wiping all of it out, because of continued U.S. support/promise to protect the safety of Israel. It's scary.
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Abigail
"Abigail, I don't think the U.S. played such a huge role in all of this... if you really want to blame a past country you could historically blame the Brits, who through their "British Mandate of Palestine" created this mess.
We, as Americans, are now involved, because of globalists in our country who got us involved and are trying to keep us involved. (And I do not believe this is a "Jewish Globalist Conspiracy"... but, there ARE Globalists out there... Jewish and otherwise.) "
I am aware of the history and the "British Mandate of Palestine". I am also aware that the U.S. put its share of pressure on the British to do what they did.
The U.S. is not "now" involved because of . . . The U.S. has been involved since the beginning, and the reasoning wasn't Globalization. If you read the history you will find that a number of high powered politicians, including the then President, supported the concept of a Jewish Israel for Christian based religious reasons. I said earlier that to some extent I agreed with WTH on that issue - though I fail to understand why Jewish people are blamed for what the Christians believe and do.
"But I suppose there is this idea out there that we must continue to "pay for the sins of our forefathers" and therefore acquiese to the continued support of Israel and Zionism. Well, I just disagree with this concept as a freedom loving American who wants to get out of these deadly entanglements with other countries.
Rather, I'd invite all Jews here (did somebody mention the State of Texas? ) so we can save huge amounts of money and lives."
I do not believe that is a feasable or even reasonable solution. 1) Given the history of persecution COMBINED with the continued efforts of anti-semites, I think it would be damned foolish to put all of the Jews in one place. In other words, I believe our traditions/beliefs have a better chance of survival if we are spread out around the world. 2) I think you would be hard pressed to convince all of the Jews to move to any one location, as many are perfectly happy where they are. 3) As I believe we created the mess in Iraq and are therefore obligated to see the mess through to a conclusion, so I believe we played a substantial role in creating the mess in Israel/Palestine and are therefore morally obligated to play a role in the solution.
With regard to the link you posted - I will get back to you on that, because I prefer to do some further research before forming and opinion.
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rhino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
according to that, there were nine times as many allied civilian deaths as axis deaths. Germany seemed to believe in a terrorist sort of war ... wiping out everyone ... like Poland especially. The buzz bombs sent to London were mostly terror weapons I think. Perhaps Dresden was partly an answer to that ... I don't know. But ... 9 times as many civilians were killed by axis forces, just to keep the "both sides were run by madmen" comment in perspective. And it was the German population that supported the German war machine's atrocities ... not quite as innocent as the Londoners.
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