The problem is genetics has proven that the Ashkenazi Jews share a Middle Eastern, not Eastern European, ancestry.
Which makes Koestler's thesis moot. It's like saying the moon is made of green cheese. A while ago, we couldn't really disprove it. But after we sent people up there and they came back with rocks and not cheese, you would have to revel in your ignorance to hold onto the green cheese claim (and the Thirteenth Tribe).
No. I've done it before and I'm tired of having to restate what I've already stated. You already know everything you need to know in order to look it up. Hint: It starts with a G and ends with an oogle.
Craig said without our money, Israel would be firing bagels at their enemies.
You actually take this loon seriously?!?
As I suggested in a previous post, we might do well to dedicate some U.S. land, and transport the state of Israel here to the U.S.... wishful thinking for sure, but heck, we'd save numerous lives and tons of money!
So then where would the Christ's people be when he comes back? If we did it your way, the Bible prophesying that he would descend to earth to the Isreal area to fight for his people at Armageddon would be broken, ... would it not?
Anyway, the Myth of the Six Million wasn't the only book out there to talk about this, there are many more updated volumes.
Here's the website that has them: Noontide Press
Uhh, so you go to a pro Neo-nazi site for a source of _credible_ information?!? :blink:
And you wonder why a lot of us here give less and less creedance to what you say! And this goes for What The Hay too.
The term Jewish is not so much an ethnicity as a religion.
If you check the Bible in the Old Testament it was possible for a stranger to be circumcised and accept the law and from thence forth be counted as one of "the people"
Hence long before Christ was born Jewish no longer referred to just those descendants of the Exodus. That's way Paul frowned on genealogy as a proof of religious superiority because many of the Jews of his time had no verifiable links to the original 12 tribes.
To argue that if you are Jewish and descended from the Khazar tribes as opposed to Jewish descended from the 12 tribes is meaningless--Jewish is Jewish and those who would argue such are not as concerned with the State of Israel as they are in making themselves feel superior.
"The Myth of The Six Million" argues if you died of dysentery, If you flung yourself on the electrified fence, If you starved to death, if you were worked to death, if you were shot, if you died as a result of medical experiments etc, YOU CAN'T BE COUNTED IN THE SIX MILLION BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DIE IN A GAS CHAMBER. Such "logic' can only be attributed to the guilty conscience trying to assuage itself by denying the act instead of admitting culpability. NO wonder VPW found it so compelling -his life was a blueprint of just that sort of thinking
I am a little confused. Was it 6 million jews that supposedly died, or 6 million people from all religions all over Europe that were held in the camps? One of the chapters on those reel to reel pictures implies that many different nationalities and religions were held in these camps and received the exact same type of treatment.
It was 6 million Jews. Altho his extermination programs were used against various groups of people, Adolph focused his rabid hatred against Jews, whom he thought were the main cause of all the problems of Germany and the world.
Face it, the man's brain was toast. ... And so was Wierwille's for giving Hitler any kind of credibility, even if he was German.
Out, it was a total hate campaign and Jews were by no means the only ones persecuted, rounded up and murdered. A lot of the folks focus on just the Jews who were subjected to that inhumane treatment - it was far more widespread and far worse than that.
"Hitler had a vision of a Master Race of Aryans that would control Europe. He used very powerful propaganda techniques to convince not only the German people, but countless others, that if they eliminated the people who stood in their way and the degenerates and racially inferior, they - the great Germans would prosper. "
"Neighboring Poland - The First Target: "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Heinrich Himmler "
" Every European country, even Germany, had those who did not believe in the Nazi ideology and who were willing to die for their beliefs. Perhaps no other group stood so firmly in their beliefs as the Jehovah Witnesses. Hitler felt particularly threatened by this strong group of Christians because they, from the very beginning, refused to recognize any God other than Jehovah. When asked to sign documents of loyalty to the Nazi ideology, they refused. Jehovah Witnesses were forced to wear purple armbands and thousands were imprisoned as "dangerous" traitors because they refused to take a pledge of loyalty to the Third Reich.."
" Like the Jews, the Rom Gypsies were chosen for total annihilation just because of their race. ... The Germans believed both the Jews and the Gypsies were racially inferior and degenerate and therefore worthless. Like the Jews, the Gypsies were also moved into special areas set up by the Nazis. Half a million Gypsies, almost the entire Eastern European Gypsy population, was wiped out during the Holocaust."
" Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but Hitler also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the Nazi ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were sought out by the Nazis very early. Thousands of Catholic priests and Christian pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease."
" Because Hitler's plan for a great Master Race had no room for any homosexuals, many males from all nations, including Germany, were persecuted, tortured and executed. Hitler even searched his own men and found suspected homosexuals that were sent to concentration camps wearing their S.S. uniforms and medals. The homosexual inmates were forced to wear pink triangles on their clothes so they could be easily recognized and further humiliated inside the camps. "
" The Nazis decided that it was a waste of time and money to support the disabled. During Hitler's "cleansing program", thousands of people with various handicaps were deemed useless and simply put to death like dogs and cats."
"Most of the Germans, who were very race conscious, despised the dark-skinned "invasion". Some of these black soldiers married white German women that bore children referred to as "Rhineland Bastards" or the "Black Disgrace". In Mein Kampf, Hitler said he would eliminate all the children born of African-German descent because he considered them an "insult" to the German nation."
" Many husbands and wives of Jews in Germany were forced to choose between divorce or concentration camps. Hitler would not allow "interracial" marriages. Those that chose to remain married were punished by imprisonment in camps where many died."
There were 5,860,000 Jewish people killed, but 11 Million Total. Most people know nothing about "the other 5 million".
Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.
Garth and Belle - thanks for that info - appreciate your responses because I haven't really delved into this history and it is quite fascinating. He was totally mad wasn't he?
I don't dispute (nor intend to forget) that other races/peoples were persecuted beyond belief by Hitler and his mad henchmen, not at all. The Jews, however, did have a 'special place' in Hitler's pantheon of hated/inferior people. They have been hated by this man ever since at least the end of World War I, well before his race based Nazi ideology came into form. He largely blamed them for the downfall of Germany in 1918. He blamed them for endeavoring to take control of the German economy. He blamed them for running the world's banks and money houses. He blamed them for the depression. He accused many of them for being Communists. (That link that Oldies provided, ever notice as you peruse it's contents that their rantings are eerily similar to the points I just made? They are but the continuation of that insanity)
His favorite composer was Richard Wagner, a well known anti-Semite. A lot of Hitler's role models hated Jews, an attitude itself which was propagated throughout the centuries. He just magnified to an unbelievable extent and carried it out in an unspeakable manner.
It is this example of inhumanity that has motivated many European countries to pass the anti-revisionist laws that a few here have the gaul to accuse of being against liberty and free expression. Some of their punishments might be over the top, but it is unmistakeable that the motivation of said laws is that nothing like Hitler and the Nazis could *ever* take root again. The Jews as a people were nearly wiped out because of that.
And its sad that some VPW defenders here place his reputation as being far more important than an historical fact that happens to go agaisnt VPW's German loving opinion.
Thank God for VPW?? ..... Doesn't say much for your god if that's the case!
I don't dispute (nor intend to forget) that other races/peoples were persecuted beyond belief by Hitler and his mad henchmen, not at all. The Jews, however, did have a 'special place' in Hitler's pantheon of hated/inferior people.
Garth - you and Belle are both correct. Belle's post is correct in that there were many other "classifications" of people that Hitler wanted erased. The Romanian Gypsies, the Poles, and the gays were very high on his list. But yes if you read Mein Kampf you are correct that he had a special place in his plans for the Jews. BTW don't read Mein Kampf if you don't want to see into the brain of a madman... I read it back in the early '70s or there abouts - before I got in TWI in 74/75 I can't remember for sure now. Once out of TWI back in 1987 I would never bother to read stuff like Mein Kampf anymore.
Garth, I agree with you. :) I'm sorry if something I posted gave an otherwise impression. I was just answering Out's question.
I also know that a lot of people don't realize there was a lot more people singled out and persecuted like the Jews. I didn't know about the homosexuals until I mentioned one our threads about the holocaust to the two gay men I work with. I don't remember ever hearing of the pink patches.....and that was just this year. Talk about feeling stupid.....
What's wild about that is that Hitler was a sexual pervert himself.
Excerpt from: The Myth of the Six Million - Chapter 6. The Legend of the Depravity of Hitler and National Socialism
(Notable issues highlighted, the most notable underlined - although this chapter is a highlight itself.)
The National Socialist campaign against the Jews ended in total defeat and in death for Hitler on April 30, 1945. This result was produced by Germany's involvement in World War II. A tremendous campaign has been sustained since that date to depict Hitler as the most evil and wicked man who has ever lived, and to brand forever with shame the German nation which submitted to his leadership. The exploitation of the circumstances concerning Hitler's wartime treatment of the Jews was and remains the decisive factor in this campaign.
The essence of the charge of unprecedented monstrosity against Hitler is that under his orders some six million Jews were exterminated in seried gas ovens that had been erected for this purpose in all the numerous concentration camps that existed before the war in Germany and in those which were opened later on in territories conquered by the advancing German armies. There has never been any valid evidence brought forward to support this charge in general, and the six million figure was purely conjectural from the beginning, having been set forth in the midst of the war, when any such extent of extermination would have been impossible, if the six million figure is to be accepted as the total number of Jews exterminated during the whole war period. If six million Jews had been exterminated by 1943, then by May, 1945, at least ten millions should have been done away with, provided Hitler and his cohorts could have got their hands on that many Jews which, of course, they could not have done.
So far as can be discovered to date, the first time this charge of mass extermination of Jews throughout Europe was advanced against Hitler and his government took place in a book by a Polish-Jewish jurist, Rafael Lemkin, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, which appeared in 1943. He contended that the Nazis had gassed millions of Jews, perhaps as many as six millions. This precise figure was first confirmed by the New Jewish Frontier early in 1945. Tortured witnesses for the Nuremberg Trials confirmed this figure when they did not exceed it, although the prosecution at Nuremberg was willing to settle for around four millions as the number that had been exterminated. Although totally ignorant of the facts, President Truman stated that six millions was the correct number and often repeated this figure, thus giving it official status. He cynically stated that his desire to please the Jews was due to the fact that there were many more Jewish than Arab voters in the United States.
The six million figure has stuck, mainly due to the fact that the Jews have recognized that it is difficult enough to sustain any such figure and that to go beyond it would only add the ridiculous to the unsubstantiated, although the figure has often been casually lifted to seven or eight millions in the press. The linking of the reparations paid by West Germany to Israel and to German Jews to the six million figure has provided a strong vested financial interest in perpetuating this estimate.
Before examining the literature of the legend of the extermination of six million Jews, it may be desirable to outline the general situation. There can be no decisive solution of the problem on a statistical basis for the figures are not available in any finality or decisive fashion. It is not known precisely bow many Jews were under German control at any time during the war, to say nothing of what the Germans did with them after they were able to get their hands on them. No one knows with any certainty how many Jews were in the territory ultimately occupied by the Germans before the attack on Russia on June 22, 1941, or what happened to them after the attack. It is uncertain how many fled back into Russia before the German advance. Nor does anybody know how many Jews were slaughtered by various Slavic peoples before the Germans arrived. There is plenty of evidence that Slavic peoples other than the Russians were more prone to kill Jews after war broke out than were the Germans, save for Jews operating among the Russian partisans. There are no accurate statistics as to how many Jews fled to Russia, to Palestine, to other European countries, and to the United States during the war. Nor are there any reliable figures as to how many Jews in areas occupied by the Germans survived the war. During the war, as well as before, the Germans were far more eager to expel Jews than to intern them, if and when it was possible to arrange emigration. This was not so easy to do in wartime.
Jewish statisticians have done their best to magnify the number of Jews in the future occupied areas be-fore September, 1939, and June, 1941, and to reduce almost fantastically the number that remained alive in June, 1945. There is no probability that the needed statistics can ever be recovered in any satisfactory manner. Both the Jews and the Russians may be counted upon to suppress such statistics as they possess because of the likelihood that they would, expose the extent of the fraud involved. Unless the Russians should some time establish unity and rapport with the Germans they are never likely to release any figures which would lessen the indictment of the Germans relative to the extermination legend. The best that can be done is to produce the figures and related considerations which do now prove that it would have been entirely impossible for the Germans to have exterminated six million Jews, even if they had decided from the first to do so, and of any such policy there is no proof whatsoever.
We know that there were about 360,000 Jews under German control in September, 1939, in Germany, Austria, the Sudetenland and Bohemia-Moravia. There were about 1,100,000 Jews in that part of Poland occupied by the Germans in 1939-1940. There were approximately 1,150,000 Jews in eastern Poland which was taken over by the Russians in the autumn of 1939. How many of these escaped into Russia ahead of the German drive after June, 1941, is unknown. There is no doubt that the Germans took over large numbers of Jews during -their invasion -of Russia, but it is very likely that at no time during the war did the Germans have control over more than 3,500,000 to 4,000,000 Jews, and many of these could not be withdrawn before the Russians occupied these areas again. One thing is relatively certain, and that is that the Germans never got their hands on as many as six million Jews during the war. To have exterminated six millions would have made it necessary for them to have executed every last Jew that they seized. Not even the upholders of the extermination legend allege that this was the case, since they portray great numbers of Jews used in labor operations at all the German concentration camps.
While it was the usual German policy during the war to intern Jews to prevent subversion and espionage, to suppress partisan activities, and to secure Jews for the labor force, the German practice of interning Jews was no such sweeping process as took place with the treatment of the Japanese by the United States and Canada. After the war, Philip Auerbach, the Jewish attorney-general of the Bavarian State Office for Restitution, claimed that the Germans interned no less than eleven million Jews, but in the light of all the even partially reliable figures it is doubtful if they interned as many as two million, and not all of these were put in concentration camps. Some were placed in Jewish community centers like that at Theresienstadt, where they were governed by Jews. Not only such population figures as we possess but also considerations of logistics make it impossible to credit any such figure as eleven millions, or even six millions. To have transported, interned, administered, fed and clothed six million Jews would have paralyzed German military operations on the vast eastern front. It would have been a terrific task to have gathered, interned and cared for three million Jews.
In the early days of the launching of the extermination legend it was maintained that there were gas chambers in all of the German concentration camps and that great numbers of Jews were exterminated in all of them. But after the occupation of West Germany by the Americans, British and French, there were many honest observers in the occupation forces who visited these camps and found and reported that no gas chambers existed there. It was then contended that most of the gas ovens were concentrated at Auschwitz in southern. Poland, which was then under Russian control. The Russians refused to allow any visitors there for about ten years after the war, by which time the Russians were able to revamp Auschwitz in such a manner as to give some plausibility to the claim that large numbers of Jews had been gassed there. It is significant, however, that no living, authentic eye-witness of the gassing of Jews at Auschwitz has ever been produced and validated.
It has continued to, be maintained that about half of the entire six million Jews said to have been gassed by the Germans were gassed at Auschwitz, but even the Jewish statistician, Gerald Reitlinger, admits that only 363,000 inmates were registered at Auschwitz from January, 1940, to February, 1945, and not all -of these were Jews. The supporters of the genocide legend contend that many at Auschwitz were not registered but they have brought no proof of this. Even if one admits that there were as many who were unregistered as were registered, that would make fewer than 750,000 altogether. It would have been very difficult to have gassed about three millions with only 750,000 to work on, although it has been frequently asserted by dogmatic but uninformed writers that from four to five million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. Moreover, many who were sent to Auschwitz were shifted elsewhere, especially toward the end of the war when the Russians were advancing.
Here, again, logistics supplement registration and population data in undermining the extermination myth. To have brought three million Jews, and a considerable number of Gentiles to Auschwitz would have placed an insuperable burden upon German transportation facilities which were strained to the limit in supporting the far-flung eastern military front, especially after the war began to turn against the Germans. There is no probability that the Germans would have risked their military fortunes to the extent required to convey three million persons to Auschwitz and care for them there. Hence, both population figures and logistics combine to discredit the legend of six million Jews being gassed in all camps under German control, as well as of about three millions being gassed at Auschwitz.
Joined with all this are the facts which will be developed later on showing that there is no evidence that the Germans adopted any program of mass extermination of Jews during the war or that any German National Socialist leader ever gave any order to do so. It has been alleged by numerous Jewish critics of Hitler, especially Gerald Reitlinger, that early in the war the Nazi leaders decided on a "final solution" of the Jewish problem and that this solution was the extermination of all the Jews they could seize. [There is no foundation whatever for this charge. Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels did determine upon a "final solution" of the Jewish problem, so far as they could control it, but this solution was to encourage or force the Jews to leave all lands that the National Socialists controlled and to settle elsewhere. Emigration rather than extermination was the solution proposed by all of these Nazi leaders. Not even the Nuremberg inquisition could link Göring in any serious manner with the Jewish issue, but there is no doubt that he shared the program of encouraging the Jews to leave all territory that Germany controlled or might control.
Interesting point here is that all the claims that the claim for the 6 million was never based on any real evidence is itself lacking in real evidence. Ie., No proveable statistics, no independent investigations invalidating the 6 million figure, etc., ... whereas evidence *for* the extermination (both the plan and actions taken to achieve such) grew to such an indisputable level, all of which starting with Hitler's and his henchmen's hatred of the Jews, and their plans to wipe them out.
And whatever evidence/information that does seem to support the revisionist 'the holocaust didn't happen' mentality is so spradic and especially selective, it isn't even funny. Almost as funny (that is, insanely ridiculous) as the claims of the Jews endeavoring to rule the world, control the money and the international banks, eat little children, being guilty in wholesale fashion for Jesus death, and other like arguments that the neo-nazis take as gospel, thus continuing to trash whatever shreds of integrity that they might have had before.
All this, coupled with your childish loyalty to a domineering, abusive, research-challenged, and insecurekraut, ..... so you can understand why I ask that you please don't expect me or anyone else here _with a brain_ to take their (or your) rebuttals with any form of serious consideration. ... At all!
WTH, OM, and others who think it never happened, go watch the documentary, listen to the eyewitness accounts of the soldiers who were there, BEFORE anyone had a chance to spin anything. Read the numbers on the signs by the mass graves, estimated BEFORE there was time to think about rewriting history.
Ah, forget it.
It is because of people like you that I felt I needed to educate my son, so he will never be tempted to think it never happened. Never again.
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Raf
The problem is genetics has proven that the Ashkenazi Jews share a Middle Eastern, not Eastern European, ancestry.
Which makes Koestler's thesis moot. It's like saying the moon is made of green cheese. A while ago, we couldn't really disprove it. But after we sent people up there and they came back with rocks and not cheese, you would have to revel in your ignorance to hold onto the green cheese claim (and the Thirteenth Tribe).
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oldiesman
Raf, can you cite that specific research work here?
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Raf
No. I've done it before and I'm tired of having to restate what I've already stated. You already know everything you need to know in order to look it up. Hint: It starts with a G and ends with an oogle.
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Tom Strange
But then you'd have to believe in the voodoo science of genetics wouldn't you?
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Belle
Come on, Raf!!! You expect us to WORK for it??? ;)
:blink:
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krys
that was tongue in cheek Tom - - -right?
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Tom Strange
yes ma'am... that's what caused the letters to tilt to the right...
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GarthP2000
Oldies sayeth,
And you wonder why a lot of us here give less and less creedance to what you say! And this goes for What The Hay too.
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templelady
The term Jewish is not so much an ethnicity as a religion.
If you check the Bible in the Old Testament it was possible for a stranger to be circumcised and accept the law and from thence forth be counted as one of "the people"
Hence long before Christ was born Jewish no longer referred to just those descendants of the Exodus. That's way Paul frowned on genealogy as a proof of religious superiority because many of the Jews of his time had no verifiable links to the original 12 tribes.
To argue that if you are Jewish and descended from the Khazar tribes as opposed to Jewish descended from the 12 tribes is meaningless--Jewish is Jewish and those who would argue such are not as concerned with the State of Israel as they are in making themselves feel superior.
"The Myth of The Six Million" argues if you died of dysentery, If you flung yourself on the electrified fence, If you starved to death, if you were worked to death, if you were shot, if you died as a result of medical experiments etc, YOU CAN'T BE COUNTED IN THE SIX MILLION BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T DIE IN A GAS CHAMBER. Such "logic' can only be attributed to the guilty conscience trying to assuage itself by denying the act instead of admitting culpability. NO wonder VPW found it so compelling -his life was a blueprint of just that sort of thinking
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outofdafog
I am a little confused. Was it 6 million jews that supposedly died, or 6 million people from all religions all over Europe that were held in the camps? One of the chapters on those reel to reel pictures implies that many different nationalities and religions were held in these camps and received the exact same type of treatment.
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GarthP2000
It was 6 million Jews. Altho his extermination programs were used against various groups of people, Adolph focused his rabid hatred against Jews, whom he thought were the main cause of all the problems of Germany and the world.
Face it, the man's brain was toast. ... And so was Wierwille's for giving Hitler any kind of credibility, even if he was German.
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Belle
Out, it was a total hate campaign and Jews were by no means the only ones persecuted, rounded up and murdered. A lot of the folks focus on just the Jews who were subjected to that inhumane treatment - it was far more widespread and far worse than that.
Here are a few quotes from Forgotten Victims of the Holocaust
"Hitler had a vision of a Master Race of Aryans that would control Europe. He used very powerful propaganda techniques to convince not only the German people, but countless others, that if they eliminated the people who stood in their way and the degenerates and racially inferior, they - the great Germans would prosper. "
"Neighboring Poland - The First Target: "All Poles will disappear from the world.... It is essential that the great German people should consider it as its major task to destroy all Poles." Heinrich Himmler "
" Every European country, even Germany, had those who did not believe in the Nazi ideology and who were willing to die for their beliefs. Perhaps no other group stood so firmly in their beliefs as the Jehovah Witnesses. Hitler felt particularly threatened by this strong group of Christians because they, from the very beginning, refused to recognize any God other than Jehovah. When asked to sign documents of loyalty to the Nazi ideology, they refused. Jehovah Witnesses were forced to wear purple armbands and thousands were imprisoned as "dangerous" traitors because they refused to take a pledge of loyalty to the Third Reich.."
" Like the Jews, the Rom Gypsies were chosen for total annihilation just because of their race. ... The Germans believed both the Jews and the Gypsies were racially inferior and degenerate and therefore worthless. Like the Jews, the Gypsies were also moved into special areas set up by the Nazis. Half a million Gypsies, almost the entire Eastern European Gypsy population, was wiped out during the Holocaust."
" Hitler wanted not only to conquer all of Europe, but Hitler also wanted to create a new religion and to replace Jesus Christ as a person to be worshipped. Hitler expected his followers to worship the Nazi ideology. Since Catholic priests and Christian pastors were often influential leaders in their community, they were sought out by the Nazis very early. Thousands of Catholic priests and Christian pastors were forced into concentration camps. A special barracks was set up at Dachau, the camp near Munich, Germany, for clergymen. A few survived; some were executed, but most were allowed to die slowly of starvation or disease."
" Because Hitler's plan for a great Master Race had no room for any homosexuals, many males from all nations, including Germany, were persecuted, tortured and executed. Hitler even searched his own men and found suspected homosexuals that were sent to concentration camps wearing their S.S. uniforms and medals. The homosexual inmates were forced to wear pink triangles on their clothes so they could be easily recognized and further humiliated inside the camps. "
" The Nazis decided that it was a waste of time and money to support the disabled. During Hitler's "cleansing program", thousands of people with various handicaps were deemed useless and simply put to death like dogs and cats."
"Most of the Germans, who were very race conscious, despised the dark-skinned "invasion". Some of these black soldiers married white German women that bore children referred to as "Rhineland Bastards" or the "Black Disgrace". In Mein Kampf, Hitler said he would eliminate all the children born of African-German descent because he considered them an "insult" to the German nation."
" Many husbands and wives of Jews in Germany were forced to choose between divorce or concentration camps. Hitler would not allow "interracial" marriages. Those that chose to remain married were punished by imprisonment in camps where many died."
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Belle
There were 5,860,000 Jewish people killed, but 11 Million Total. Most people know nothing about "the other 5 million".
Of the 11 million people killed during the Holocaust, six million were Polish citizens. Three million were Polish Jews and another three million were Polish Christians and Catholics. Most of the remaining mortal victims were from other countries including Hungary, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, Holland, France and even Germany.
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outofdafog
Garth and Belle - thanks for that info - appreciate your responses because I haven't really delved into this history and it is quite fascinating. He was totally mad wasn't he?
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GarthP2000
Belle,
I don't dispute (nor intend to forget) that other races/peoples were persecuted beyond belief by Hitler and his mad henchmen, not at all. The Jews, however, did have a 'special place' in Hitler's pantheon of hated/inferior people. They have been hated by this man ever since at least the end of World War I, well before his race based Nazi ideology came into form. He largely blamed them for the downfall of Germany in 1918. He blamed them for endeavoring to take control of the German economy. He blamed them for running the world's banks and money houses. He blamed them for the depression. He accused many of them for being Communists. (That link that Oldies provided, ever notice as you peruse it's contents that their rantings are eerily similar to the points I just made? They are but the continuation of that insanity)
His favorite composer was Richard Wagner, a well known anti-Semite. A lot of Hitler's role models hated Jews, an attitude itself which was propagated throughout the centuries. He just magnified to an unbelievable extent and carried it out in an unspeakable manner.
It is this example of inhumanity that has motivated many European countries to pass the anti-revisionist laws that a few here have the gaul to accuse of being against liberty and free expression. Some of their punishments might be over the top, but it is unmistakeable that the motivation of said laws is that nothing like Hitler and the Nazis could *ever* take root again. The Jews as a people were nearly wiped out because of that.
And its sad that some VPW defenders here place his reputation as being far more important than an historical fact that happens to go agaisnt VPW's German loving opinion.
Thank God for VPW?? ..... Doesn't say much for your god if that's the case!
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RumRunner
Garth - you and Belle are both correct. Belle's post is correct in that there were many other "classifications" of people that Hitler wanted erased. The Romanian Gypsies, the Poles, and the gays were very high on his list. But yes if you read Mein Kampf you are correct that he had a special place in his plans for the Jews. BTW don't read Mein Kampf if you don't want to see into the brain of a madman... I read it back in the early '70s or there abouts - before I got in TWI in 74/75 I can't remember for sure now. Once out of TWI back in 1987 I would never bother to read stuff like Mein Kampf anymore.
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Belle
Garth, I agree with you. :) I'm sorry if something I posted gave an otherwise impression. I was just answering Out's question.
I also know that a lot of people don't realize there was a lot more people singled out and persecuted like the Jews. I didn't know about the homosexuals until I mentioned one our threads about the holocaust to the two gay men I work with. I don't remember ever hearing of the pink patches.....and that was just this year. Talk about feeling stupid.....
What's wild about that is that Hitler was a sexual pervert himself.
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What The Hey
Excerpt from: The Myth of the Six Million - Chapter 6. The Legend of the Depravity of Hitler and National Socialism
(Notable issues highlighted, the most notable underlined - although this chapter is a highlight itself.)
The National Socialist campaign against the Jews ended in total defeat and in death for Hitler on April 30, 1945. This result was produced by Germany's involvement in World War II. A tremendous campaign has been sustained since that date to depict Hitler as the most evil and wicked man who has ever lived, and to brand forever with shame the German nation which submitted to his leadership. The exploitation of the circumstances concerning Hitler's wartime treatment of the Jews was and remains the decisive factor in this campaign.
The essence of the charge of unprecedented monstrosity against Hitler is that under his orders some six million Jews were exterminated in seried gas ovens that had been erected for this purpose in all the numerous concentration camps that existed before the war in Germany and in those which were opened later on in territories conquered by the advancing German armies. There has never been any valid evidence brought forward to support this charge in general, and the six million figure was purely conjectural from the beginning, having been set forth in the midst of the war, when any such extent of extermination would have been impossible, if the six million figure is to be accepted as the total number of Jews exterminated during the whole war period. If six million Jews had been exterminated by 1943, then by May, 1945, at least ten millions should have been done away with, provided Hitler and his cohorts could have got their hands on that many Jews which, of course, they could not have done.
So far as can be discovered to date, the first time this charge of mass extermination of Jews throughout Europe was advanced against Hitler and his government took place in a book by a Polish-Jewish jurist, Rafael Lemkin, Axis Rule in Occupied Europe, which appeared in 1943. He contended that the Nazis had gassed millions of Jews, perhaps as many as six millions. This precise figure was first confirmed by the New Jewish Frontier early in 1945. Tortured witnesses for the Nuremberg Trials confirmed this figure when they did not exceed it, although the prosecution at Nuremberg was willing to settle for around four millions as the number that had been exterminated. Although totally ignorant of the facts, President Truman stated that six millions was the correct number and often repeated this figure, thus giving it official status. He cynically stated that his desire to please the Jews was due to the fact that there were many more Jewish than Arab voters in the United States.
The six million figure has stuck, mainly due to the fact that the Jews have recognized that it is difficult enough to sustain any such figure and that to go beyond it would only add the ridiculous to the unsubstantiated, although the figure has often been casually lifted to seven or eight millions in the press. The linking of the reparations paid by West Germany to Israel and to German Jews to the six million figure has provided a strong vested financial interest in perpetuating this estimate.
Before examining the literature of the legend of the extermination of six million Jews, it may be desirable to outline the general situation. There can be no decisive solution of the problem on a statistical basis for the figures are not available in any finality or decisive fashion. It is not known precisely bow many Jews were under German control at any time during the war, to say nothing of what the Germans did with them after they were able to get their hands on them. No one knows with any certainty how many Jews were in the territory ultimately occupied by the Germans before the attack on Russia on June 22, 1941, or what happened to them after the attack. It is uncertain how many fled back into Russia before the German advance. Nor does anybody know how many Jews were slaughtered by various Slavic peoples before the Germans arrived. There is plenty of evidence that Slavic peoples other than the Russians were more prone to kill Jews after war broke out than were the Germans, save for Jews operating among the Russian partisans. There are no accurate statistics as to how many Jews fled to Russia, to Palestine, to other European countries, and to the United States during the war. Nor are there any reliable figures as to how many Jews in areas occupied by the Germans survived the war. During the war, as well as before, the Germans were far more eager to expel Jews than to intern them, if and when it was possible to arrange emigration. This was not so easy to do in wartime.
Jewish statisticians have done their best to magnify the number of Jews in the future occupied areas be-fore September, 1939, and June, 1941, and to reduce almost fantastically the number that remained alive in June, 1945. There is no probability that the needed statistics can ever be recovered in any satisfactory manner. Both the Jews and the Russians may be counted upon to suppress such statistics as they possess because of the likelihood that they would, expose the extent of the fraud involved. Unless the Russians should some time establish unity and rapport with the Germans they are never likely to release any figures which would lessen the indictment of the Germans relative to the extermination legend. The best that can be done is to produce the figures and related considerations which do now prove that it would have been entirely impossible for the Germans to have exterminated six million Jews, even if they had decided from the first to do so, and of any such policy there is no proof whatsoever.
We know that there were about 360,000 Jews under German control in September, 1939, in Germany, Austria, the Sudetenland and Bohemia-Moravia. There were about 1,100,000 Jews in that part of Poland occupied by the Germans in 1939-1940. There were approximately 1,150,000 Jews in eastern Poland which was taken over by the Russians in the autumn of 1939. How many of these escaped into Russia ahead of the German drive after June, 1941, is unknown. There is no doubt that the Germans took over large numbers of Jews during -their invasion -of Russia, but it is very likely that at no time during the war did the Germans have control over more than 3,500,000 to 4,000,000 Jews, and many of these could not be withdrawn before the Russians occupied these areas again. One thing is relatively certain, and that is that the Germans never got their hands on as many as six million Jews during the war. To have exterminated six millions would have made it necessary for them to have executed every last Jew that they seized. Not even the upholders of the extermination legend allege that this was the case, since they portray great numbers of Jews used in labor operations at all the German concentration camps.
While it was the usual German policy during the war to intern Jews to prevent subversion and espionage, to suppress partisan activities, and to secure Jews for the labor force, the German practice of interning Jews was no such sweeping process as took place with the treatment of the Japanese by the United States and Canada. After the war, Philip Auerbach, the Jewish attorney-general of the Bavarian State Office for Restitution, claimed that the Germans interned no less than eleven million Jews, but in the light of all the even partially reliable figures it is doubtful if they interned as many as two million, and not all of these were put in concentration camps. Some were placed in Jewish community centers like that at Theresienstadt, where they were governed by Jews. Not only such population figures as we possess but also considerations of logistics make it impossible to credit any such figure as eleven millions, or even six millions. To have transported, interned, administered, fed and clothed six million Jews would have paralyzed German military operations on the vast eastern front. It would have been a terrific task to have gathered, interned and cared for three million Jews.
In the early days of the launching of the extermination legend it was maintained that there were gas chambers in all of the German concentration camps and that great numbers of Jews were exterminated in all of them. But after the occupation of West Germany by the Americans, British and French, there were many honest observers in the occupation forces who visited these camps and found and reported that no gas chambers existed there. It was then contended that most of the gas ovens were concentrated at Auschwitz in southern. Poland, which was then under Russian control. The Russians refused to allow any visitors there for about ten years after the war, by which time the Russians were able to revamp Auschwitz in such a manner as to give some plausibility to the claim that large numbers of Jews had been gassed there. It is significant, however, that no living, authentic eye-witness of the gassing of Jews at Auschwitz has ever been produced and validated.
It has continued to, be maintained that about half of the entire six million Jews said to have been gassed by the Germans were gassed at Auschwitz, but even the Jewish statistician, Gerald Reitlinger, admits that only 363,000 inmates were registered at Auschwitz from January, 1940, to February, 1945, and not all -of these were Jews. The supporters of the genocide legend contend that many at Auschwitz were not registered but they have brought no proof of this. Even if one admits that there were as many who were unregistered as were registered, that would make fewer than 750,000 altogether. It would have been very difficult to have gassed about three millions with only 750,000 to work on, although it has been frequently asserted by dogmatic but uninformed writers that from four to five million Jews were gassed at Auschwitz. Moreover, many who were sent to Auschwitz were shifted elsewhere, especially toward the end of the war when the Russians were advancing.
Here, again, logistics supplement registration and population data in undermining the extermination myth. To have brought three million Jews, and a considerable number of Gentiles to Auschwitz would have placed an insuperable burden upon German transportation facilities which were strained to the limit in supporting the far-flung eastern military front, especially after the war began to turn against the Germans. There is no probability that the Germans would have risked their military fortunes to the extent required to convey three million persons to Auschwitz and care for them there. Hence, both population figures and logistics combine to discredit the legend of six million Jews being gassed in all camps under German control, as well as of about three millions being gassed at Auschwitz.
Joined with all this are the facts which will be developed later on showing that there is no evidence that the Germans adopted any program of mass extermination of Jews during the war or that any German National Socialist leader ever gave any order to do so. It has been alleged by numerous Jewish critics of Hitler, especially Gerald Reitlinger, that early in the war the Nazi leaders decided on a "final solution" of the Jewish problem and that this solution was the extermination of all the Jews they could seize. [There is no foundation whatever for this charge. Hitler, Himmler and Goebbels did determine upon a "final solution" of the Jewish problem, so far as they could control it, but this solution was to encourage or force the Jews to leave all lands that the National Socialists controlled and to settle elsewhere. Emigration rather than extermination was the solution proposed by all of these Nazi leaders. Not even the Nuremberg inquisition could link Göring in any serious manner with the Jewish issue, but there is no doubt that he shared the program of encouraging the Jews to leave all territory that Germany controlled or might control.
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Raf
What the Hey,
And to think, I've actually tried using reason to argue with you.
You have absolutely outdone yourself. The whole chapter is a highlight? Woohoo!
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GarthP2000
WTF(err-- H),
Interesting point here is that all the claims that the claim for the 6 million was never based on any real evidence is itself lacking in real evidence. Ie., No proveable statistics, no independent investigations invalidating the 6 million figure, etc., ... whereas evidence *for* the extermination (both the plan and actions taken to achieve such) grew to such an indisputable level, all of which starting with Hitler's and his henchmen's hatred of the Jews, and their plans to wipe them out.
And whatever evidence/information that does seem to support the revisionist 'the holocaust didn't happen' mentality is so spradic and especially selective, it isn't even funny. Almost as funny (that is, insanely ridiculous) as the claims of the Jews endeavoring to rule the world, control the money and the international banks, eat little children, being guilty in wholesale fashion for Jesus death, and other like arguments that the neo-nazis take as gospel, thus continuing to trash whatever shreds of integrity that they might have had before.
All this, coupled with your childish loyalty to a domineering, abusive, research-challenged, and insecure kraut, ..... so you can understand why I ask that you please don't expect me or anyone else here _with a brain_ to take their (or your) rebuttals with any form of serious consideration. ... At all!
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Raf
Lest What the Hey's "highlights"... hahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!HA!
HA!HA!HA!
Hah.
Sigh.
Where was I?
Oh yes: for those interested in a refutation of the nonsense that appears in What the Hey's Greatest Hits list above:
Click here to see the evidence that, yes, there were gas chambers and, yes, there was a concerted campaign to exterminate Jews and, yes, the figure six million is a pretty good estimate.
I'm still at a loss for words over the actual post, but why stupidity should surprise me at this stage is probably the greater mystery.
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Belle
WTH, you lose more and more credibility the more you post.
Quit while you're behind.
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shazdancer
I was thinking the same thing, Belle!
WTH, OM, and others who think it never happened, go watch the documentary, listen to the eyewitness accounts of the soldiers who were there, BEFORE anyone had a chance to spin anything. Read the numbers on the signs by the mass graves, estimated BEFORE there was time to think about rewriting history.
Ah, forget it.
It is because of people like you that I felt I needed to educate my son, so he will never be tempted to think it never happened. Never again.
Shaz
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Raf
The chapter is a highlight itself...
I keep reading it just to prove to myself it was actually posted.
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