Myth of the Six Million

[What The Hey]

....

Since others DID see him teach this, you have 2 choices.

A) Accept that he did this, at least SOME of the time.

B) Call all the eyewitnesses liars, cover your ears, and insist that you know THE Truth

on vpw no matter what anyone else saw or heard from him.

It's your choice.[/b]

WW tends to overlook the third alternative - which is, many times "eyewitness accounts and testimonies" just don't jive with the facts.

He also tends to have a problem with people who recognize that as well.

[WordWolf]

WW tends to overlook the third alternative - which is, many times "eyewitness accounts and testimonies" just don't jive with the facts.

He also tends to have a problem with people who recognize that as well.

WTH tends to oversimplify anything he doesn't like.

For example, one person's eyewitness testimony is one thing,

but when dozens of people step forward, and a consistent picture is presented from all their testimony,

that's entirely another.

That's why GOD'S WORD mentions the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things,

but WTH's not convinced with dozens if he dislikes their testimony.

WTH also tends to have a problem with people whom he disagrees.

[waysider]

Sheesh

The guy made all kinds of references relating to this subject and THOUSANDS of people heard him do so.

How hard is that to comprehend?

Along these same lines, there were teachings going around in the mid-'70s that the spiritual reason North America was allowed to be taken from the natives is because they were worshipping false Gods and that God knew in his foreknowledge that The Way would flourish in what is now America.

Sick----Sick-----Sick-----and---- Sicker!

[irisheyes]

Is it not a FACT that the book titled "The Myth of the Six Million," was sold out of TWI's bookstore? I remember VP teaching this specifically at AC '75 (yeah, I'm showing my age). Why it bothered him, however, is still a mystery to me. Did he agree with Hitler? :unsure:

[waysider]

Is it not a FACT that the book titled "The Myth of the Six Million," was sold out of TWI's bookstore? I remember VP teaching this specifically at AC '75 (yeah, I'm showing my age). Why it bothered him, however, is still a mystery to me. Did he agree with Hitler? :unsure:

Don't let yourself feel old.

About 250 people heard him teach this stuff at AC '73 also.

[irisheyes]

WHEW!

[What The Hey]

WTH tends to oversimplify anything he doesn't like. For example, one person's eyewitness testimony is one thing, but when dozens of people step forward, and a consistent picture is presented from all their testimony,that's entirely another.

The only problem is, the consistent picture being presented is a distorted one.

That's why GOD'S WORD mentions the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things, but WTH's not convinced with dozens if he dislikes their testimony.

Wrong. Paul stated 2 or 3 witnesses were needed to establish "that proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3) which has nothing to do with what WW is trying very hard to establish - but can't do it. (AT LEAST, NOT WITH ME!)

Paul wasn't telling people everything is established by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses - which apparently WW is telling people and also believes is possible. For example: Many people testified saying Christ would destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days. There were certainly more than 2 or 3 of them, so what about their [ahem] "testimony" against Jesus Christ? Was their "eyewitness testimony" as credible as what WW wants people to believe eyewitness testimony is?

That is why God's Word speaks more loudly against false witnesses - and there certainly are more than 2 or 3 false witnesses out there. Those people would be more apt to hold their tounge if they truly believed God's Word - as they are going to have to give an account for every idle word spoken in the day of judgement. (Matthew 12:36,37)

WTH also tends to have a problem with people whom he disagrees.

No. I just have a problem with false witnesses.

Edited November 13, 2007 by What The Hey

[WordWolf]

WTH's definition of "distorted picture", of course, involves

"any complete picture that he doesn't LIKE....

WW:

WTH tends to oversimplify anything he doesn't like.

For example, one person's eyewitness testimony is one thing,

but when dozens of people step forward, and a consistent picture is presented from all their testimony,

that's entirely another.

That's why GOD'S WORD mentions the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses to establish things,

but WTH's not convinced with dozens if he dislikes their testimony.

WTH also tends to have a problem with people whom he disagrees.

WTH:

Wrong. Paul stated 2 or 3 witnesses were needed to establish "that proof of Christ speaking in me" (2 Corinthians 13:3) which has nothing to do with what WW is trying very hard to establish - but can't do it. (AT LEAST, NOT WITH ME!)

Actually, the standard of 2 or 3 witnesses to determine truth predates Paul by a considerable

amount, and Paul has nothing to do with what I was saying.

Deuteronomy 17:6

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.

Deuteronomy 19:15

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established.

WTH:

Paul wasn't telling people everything is established by the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses - which apparently WW is telling people and also believes is possible.

Of course he wasn't. However, Deuteronomy stated that whether or not a man

was guilty of any iniquity or sin (you know, like raping a woman or whatever),

that the matter would be established at the mouth of three witnesses.

(One presumes more than 3 would be better.)

Therefore, by the Mosaic Law (given by God Almighty, remember),

that's how we determine whether vpw or anyone else did the terrible things they did.

God's Word said that's how it's done.

WTH said that's NOT how it's done- instead some method favourable to finding vpw

blameless of felonies should be used.

Who should be believed?

WTH:

there certainly are more than 2 or 3 false witnesses out there. Those people would be more apt to hold their tounge if they truly believed God's Word - as they are going to have to give an account for every idle word spoken in the day of judgement. (Matthew 12:36,37)

See, this fits right into what I said earlier.

WW:

Since others DID see him teach this, you have 2 choices.

A) Accept that he did this, at least SOME of the time.

B) Call all the eyewitnesses liars, cover your ears, and insist that you know THE Truth

on vpw no matter what anyone else saw or heard from him.

It's your choice.

WTH has selected Option B. Which is his choice.

Edited November 13, 2007 by WordWolf

[What The Hey]

WW

Since others DID see him teach this, you have 2 choices.

A) Accept that he did this, at least SOME of the time.

B) Call all the eyewitnesses liars, cover your ears, and insist that you know THE Truth

on vpw no matter what anyone else saw or heard from him.

WTH has selected Option B. Which is his choice.

Why is it that Christian extremists always present only two alternatives when a third and a right alternative exists - which of course, I presented here. WW apparently has a problem with that third and right alternative - the one dealing with "false witnesses". (But then, "false witnesses" are not at GSC according to WW. Yeah, right!)

Christian extremists are also guilty of: "Demonizing the Enemy" - and presenting only two alternatives when a third and right alternative exists helps them accomplish that. I already addressed "Demonizing the Enemy" to Rascal in the "Get Over It" thread - post# 38, so I won't go over it again in this one.

[Ham]

It's hard to not "demonize the enemy" when they merely do it to themselves..

Anton Lavey did a pretty good job of it..

I think he got what he wanted. Painted the place so "unclean" that self-righteous hucksters and the like wouldn't even think of knocking on the door for a donation.. even if he sent them a donation.. one look on the check, and they'd send it back..

Honestly.. wear a red suit and horns in public, or was it a black suit..

"Honestly, sit there and think for once in your life.."

We should have taken the grifter up on the challenge..

"Self-demonization" has always been a martyr's tool. Underhanded, perhaps, but it does get some people's sympathy.

Like some guy crucifying HIMSELF on the witness stand as some kind of "expert"..

it wasn't the government.. the prosecutor.. the judge.. he really did it to himself.

If he was what he really claimed to be, his "profession" would still be intact.. maybe be out of public favor, but he'd still be practicing real engineering.

Martyrdom may be noble.. for the right cause and such..

but why sacrifice something that you do NOT have for the "cause".. it's ludicrous..

"I'll sacrifice my fortune for the cause."

in my case, right now it's about $153.98.

I wouldn't compare this to the poor widow woman.. she hardly had media and people sounding horns as her "greatness" threw in the few mites..

[Ham]

Gandi had it figured out.. if you're gonna be a passive resister, and use love.. if you are morally destitute or physically bankrupt.. how are you really contributing?

guys like leuchter and the like.. "throwing themselves in front of the train".. they do more harm to their "cause" than good..

[Ham]

seeing he was the "best" the cause could get is pretty revealing..

[Tom Strange]

Is it not a FACT that the book titled "The Myth of the Six Million," was sold out of TWI's bookstore? I remember VP teaching this specifically at AC '75 (yeah, I'm showing my age). Why it bothered him, however, is still a mystery to me. Did he agree with Hitler? :unsure:

...that's where I got my copy! It's sitting over there in the bookshelf with all of my other TWI stuff... people see it and are impressed that I know how to read...

...of course, it's right next to Private Parts by Howard Stern.

[Ham]

...that's where I got my copy! It's sitting over there in the bookshelf with all of my other TWI stuff... people see it and are impressed that I know how to read...

"some of us" shouldn't have taken all that stuff to the gehenna, where the fires never cease. People would be impressed. "duuuuhhhh, he REALLY read all that stuff..."

what's really impressive is my 85th edition of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics.. biggest book on the shelf. I can actually understand about half of it..

[Belle]

...that's where I got my copy! It's sitting over there in the bookshelf with all of my other TWI stuff... people see it and are impressed that I know how to read...

...of course, it's right next to Private Parts by Howard Stern.

:o You have Howard Stern's Private Parts???

[Ham]

No, I think Howard Stein actually has Howard Steins private parts..

sowy.. carry on..

[HAPe4me]

Don't let yourself feel old.

About 250 people heard him teach this stuff at AC '73 also.

yep, I heard him at AC73 also, at HQ

[What The Hey]

It's hard to not "demonize the enemy" when they merely do it to themselves..

Anton Lavey did a pretty good job of it..

I think he got what he wanted. Painted the place so "unclean" that self-righteous hucksters and the like wouldn't even think of knocking on the door for a donation.. even if he sent them a donation.. one look on the check, and they'd send it back..

Honestly.. wear a red suit and horns in public, or was it a black suit..

"Honestly, sit there and think for once in your life.."

We should have taken the grifter up on the challenge..

"Self-demonization" has always been a martyr's tool. Underhanded, perhaps, but it does get some people's sympathy.

Like some guy crucifying HIMSELF on the witness stand as some kind of "expert"..

it wasn't the government.. the prosecutor.. the judge.. he really did it to himself.

If he was what he really claimed to be, his "profession" would still be intact.. maybe be out of public favor, but he'd still be practicing real engineering.

Martyrdom may be noble.. for the right cause and such..

but why sacrifice something that you do NOT have for the "cause".. it's ludicrous..

"I'll sacrifice my fortune for the cause."

in my case, right now it's about $153.98.

I wouldn't compare this to the poor widow woman.. she hardly had media and people sounding horns as her "greatness" threw in the few mites..

I don't recall Fred Leuchter demonized himself, but there are certainly plenty of people who want to "shut him up" - just like they want to shut up: Ernst Zundel, Dr. Fredrick Toben, Paul Rassiner, Dr. Robert Faurisson, Thies Christophersen, Wilhelm Stäglich, Joseph Burg, Professor Arthur Butz, Haviv Schieber, Francois Duprat, Ditlieb Felderer, Professor Austin App, Jim Keegstra, Frank Walus, Emil Lachout, well the list goes on and on ....

And all these people are demonizing or crucifying themselves because they believe a lie? (or is it because they have rejected one?)

BTW... Stalin committed his worst crimes well before Hitler's major atrocities got under way.

We have forgotten that Germany alone did not spark the Second World War. Germany and the U.S.S.R. jointly invaded Poland in 1939; Stalin then attacked Finland. Two years later, Britain and the U.S.S.R. invaded neutral Iran. History indeed remains the propaganda of the victors.

If we keep hectoring Germany and Japan to admit guilt for events of the 1940s, is it not time the United States, Britain and Canada admit their own culpability in allying themselves to Stalin, a monster who killed over four times the number of Hitler's victims?

The reason we have demonized the enemy is so our own allying with Stalin who killed: "four times the number of Hitler's victims' comes off looking holier-than-thou'. To the majority of us US citizens I believe, yes, indeed it does. But what must it appear like to the rest of the world?

Edited November 15, 2007 by What The Hey