Myth of the Six Million

[SafariVista]

Maybe the 'plane flying into the Pentagon', Waco, Okalahoma City bombing and the Holocaust all have something in common ... (and many others I'm sure)

:blink:

[GarthP2000]

Wonderful. Just freekin' wonderful!

As if Alabama doesn't have enough morons in public office or those running for same. Like Roy Moore, Guy Hunt, Fob James, George Wallace, ... I could go on and on.

Now we got Darby with his "I wanna be like David Duke" platform!

And some folks wonder why states like 'Bama are the laughing stock of the rest of the country!

[Linda Z]

Abi said, "Whether it were 6 million or 1 million, I can't see admiring someone who did what Hitler did."

That's how I've always seen it, too, Abi. Also, whether the people slaughtered were Jews descended directly from the Biblical Israelites or not made/makes no difference to me. Regardless of religion or ethnicity, everyone killed was a human being who was senselessly, brutally murdered, and there were many, many of them. I don't care if it was 6 million or 1 million or 100,000, or "only" 10. It never should have happened.

Safari, I watched a PBS special on the Holocaust in which one segment focused on the euthanizations. All of Hitler's reign of terror was horrifying, but I have to admit, that part gave extra tugs to my heart strings. Being killed just for being sick or mentally handicapped or old--my God.

Oldies, forget all the books and articles for a moment...just set them aside (for 3 months, maybe?) Put yourself in the shoes of a young child in Germany during the Hitler years. Think what it would be like to be in a concentration camp and see your father led off to a place you'd seen people led to before, never to return. Think of seeing your mother wasting away from starvation until she looked like all the other skeleton-like people around you. Think of the HUMAN side of this discussion, rather than the "I'm right/you're wrong and I'm gonna prove it" side.

[SafariVista]

Nauseating Shivers.................

[dmiller]

Worth repeating ----

Oldies, forget all the books and articles for a moment...just set them aside (for 3 months, maybe?) Put yourself in the shoes of a young child in Germany during the Hitler years. Think what it would be like to be in a concentration camp and see your father led off to a place you'd seen people led to before, never to return. Think of seeing your mother wasting away from starvation until she looked like all the other skeleton-like people around you. Think of the HUMAN side of this discussion, rather than the "I'm right/you're wrong and I'm gonna prove it" side.

[igotout]

"The jews have gotten a large return on their holocaust."

Haven't had time to read this thread but some idiot named WHT said the above.

What the FucXX!!!??

He sounds like a guy I know here in Tampa who still believes the stuff he learned in TWI and from the John Birch Society and others about the Jews. (He was in the Corps). He is a big conspiracy theorist too. I told him to seek therapy. When he speaks his twisted logic or even hints at it, we just tell him to shut up and go talk in the mirror.

He is a loser and his life is basically a failure and he has few friends.

Oh, and he is the one who told me that WayDale was probably funded and coordinated by a Jewish organization for the purpose of destroying TWI. Ha, ha, ha! . I just told him to shut up and go get laid or something.

Raf, please write a publication called "Myth of the Snowy Gas Pumps".

[DesertVis]

I'm new here and just read this thread. Unbelievable! I cannot imagine that there are some of you out there who still subscribe to wierwille's holocaust denial. The proof is so staggering that it is unquestionable. Yes, some of you still follow this low-life mental midget's opinion.

Hitler was the ultimate cult leader. He brainwashed a whole generation and held them under his charismatic power. Of course wierwille and loy-boy admired him. He was the best at their chosen profession.

[oldiesman]

... rather than the "I'm right/you're wrong and I'm gonna prove it" side.

Linda Z and dmiller, what is the problem with posting varying information and let the reader decide whether to believe it or not? I have no problem with folks posting pro-Zionist or anti-Nazi information, and I welcome it. Why not welcome revisionist information, as well? I am very thankful ... a debate such as this is banned in some other countries...

Edited May 15, 2006 by oldiesman

[oldiesman]

He sounds like a guy I know here in Tampa who still believes the stuff he learned in TWI and from the John Birch Society and others about the Jews. (He was in the Corps).

John, I've done some studying of John Birch Society materials over the years, and they are adamantly opposed to anti-semitic literature and they believe they've been falsely accused of being anti-semitic.

Can you provide some written examples of their so-called anti-semitism?

[oldiesman]

Their book "None Dare Call It Conspiracy" was a good book. I am not a member of the John Birch Society but since John invoked them in context of anti-semitism, here is a response, for Greasespot perusal:

Behind The Attacks On

The John Birch Society

by John F. McManus

"The John Birch Society! Isn't that some sort of radical group?"

"Doesn't it have something to do with racism and anti-Semitism?"

"Aren't those people like the Nazis and the Klan?"

These characterizations of the John Birch Society are completely

baseless. But, mention the John Birch Society's name to some Americans

and be prepared for a response similar to what you've just read. And,

strange as it may seem, there isn't any malicious intent on the part of

most who utter such defamatory nonsense. Decent and honorable men and

women have been led to believe something that is totally false.

Press for a reason why condemnation of the John Birch Society might be

expressed and you'll likely find that those who give it have never read

anything published by the Society, seen any of its films or video

programs, or heard any of its spokesmen give a speech or air the

organization's views on radio or television.

In other words, there are many Americans whose opinions about the John

Birch Society are not based on what the organization has said or done

but on what others have said of it. And, usually, these are individuals

who insist that they always make up their own minds and are not

influenced by the mass media or anyone else.

On the other hand, should mention of the Society's name elicit a

positive response, you can be virtually certain who ever gave it has

read John Birch literature or had some direct contact with the

organization.

You may also encounter other Americans, of course, who readily admit

that they know nothing about the Society, and maybe have never even

heard of it. If that' s the case, you're likely talking to someone 35

years of age or younger who was not influenced by the withering smear

campaign directed at the Society in the early 1960s.

No Society official has ever claimed that all who read JBS literature

will completely agree with it. The Society simply asks the American

people to take a good look, to consider its views along with a host of

others. The series of attacks on the Society, however, have kept

millions from doing so. Which is exactly what they were designed to

accomplish.

Is the Society worthy of contempt? Should decent Americans shun it? Or

is its message so important and revealing about the way our nation is

being led that prominent individuals in America will stop at virtually

nothing to keep it from being heard?

What Is the John Birch Society?

The John Birch Society was begun in December 1958. Its sole purpose has

been to keep freedom alive through an educational campaign that would

share important information and perspective with fellow Americans. In a

nation that prides itself on free speech and a free press, such a

program should rise or fall based on the worth of its information. But

the Society hasn't been judged by what it has offered Too many Americans

have accepted the strident denunciations of the organization by powerful

groups and individuals who seek to set America' s agenda.

The Society's founder, Mr. Robert Welch, once stated in an essay written

several years before he launched the organization:

The glory that is passing in the America that I was born in; that was

given to me by courageous and farseeing men, many of whom died for that

purpose; that I grew up in, went to school in, and loved more every year

as I came to understand what a miraculous achievement it was as compared

with any other social group at any place or any time in the history of

the world; ... my America is being made over into a carbon copy of

thousands of despotisms that have gone before.

He discovered that a plan existed to have government assume enormous

control over the lives of the American people and then to subject them

to an all-powerful world government. He looked into the future and saw

rising taxation, controls regulations, bureaucracy, and the specter of

Big Brother. He saw a watering- down of U.S. independence and a steady

transfer of national sovereignty to the United Nations. In time, he

would label this plan "a new world order," a term he knew it proponents

had been using for generations.

He also saw that the American people were no longer being given an

appreciation of the marvelous heritage left to us by our nation's

founders. The average American was not only unaware of the growth of

government power., he had no understanding of what government's proper

role is supposed to be. The mass media were to blame, but so were

educators, politicians, and even many clergymen.

He considered this to be a deliberate plot, a huge betrayal of the

marvelous American system. Rather than sit back and watch the conversion

of this nation into "a carbon copy of thousands of despotisms that

have gone before," he decided to act. After a few unsuccessful ventures

in the arena of politics, Robert Welch formed an organization whose

dual purpose was to preserve the American system of limited

constitutional government and free enterprise, and to shine the light of

day on individuals and programs. His idea was to create a citizen's

group with locally functioning chapters organized to dispense sound

information and perspective to fellow citizens.

Launched at a two-day meeting in Indianapolis in December 1958, the

Society proceeded according to plans spelled out in its Blue Book, the

transcript of the founding meeting. It began immediately to attract

concerned Americans to its study groups. Its program included informing

them about legislation being considered in Washington, and its efforts

led to the defeat of several unnecessary and undesirable federal

programs through contacts with members of Congress and through letter-

writing campaigns.

Late in 1960, the Society learned of an effort organized by the

Communist Party USA to have Congress cut off funding (and thereby

abolish) the House Committee on Un-American Activities. Through its

investigations of communist activity in our nation, HCUA had become a

thorn in the side of the communists. Society members and other like

minded Americans in various other groups began an all-out campaign to

warn members of Congress that the move to cripple HCUA was a pet project

of the Communist Party. Their efforts bore great fruit.

When the measure came before the House of Representatives in early 1961,

it was defeated overwhelmingly by a vote of 412 to 6. John Birch Society

members didn't deserve all the credit for helping to kill the pro-

Communist measure, but their efforts attracted attention and they were

soon to become the target of intense retaliation.

Communists Retaliate

In late 1960, Communist Party leaders from over 80 nations were summoned

to an important meeting in Moscow. Out of that huge gathering came a

mandate to all communists everywhere to wage a "resolute struggle

against anti-Communism." Six months later, the U.S. Senate Internal

Security Subcommittee (SISS) conducted hearings about this significant

directive. One of its most important witnesses was Edward Hunter, a

renowned student of communist strategy and tactics. It was he who had

coined the term "brainwashing" after studying the tactics used by the

communists against American POWs in Korea.

Mr. Hunter's lengthy testimony was published by SISS on July 11, 1961 as

The New Drive Against the Anti-Communist Program. It included the

following passage:

For the first time, the world Communist network, in a basic policy and

operational document, specifically referred to the anti-Communist

movement in the United States, recognizing that it had reached

proportions large enough to constitute a main_if not the main_danger to

Communist progress in our country....

A subsequent study commissioned by the California State Senate made the

following observations after noting that the Moscow directive was

published in full in the official publication of the Communist Party in

this country:

So far as the American Communists were concerned, this was an

order_plain and incontrovertible. It was not lightly printed. It was an

implementation of orders from the highest source of the world Communist

movement, and it was therefore imperative that the Party here do

everything in its power to render the Birch Society, the anti-Communist

schools, and all of the other rising anti-Communist organizations

ineffective....

So, on February 25, 1961, People's World, the official newspaper of the

Communist Party on the West Coast, followed the orders given by Moscow

and published its first attack under the headline, "Enter (from stage

right) the John Birch Society." A typical piece of communist innuendo

and falsehood, it alerted all communists to the Society's existence and

to the need to blacken its name. Had the errors and distortions in that

article remained only with Communist Party members, the Society would

never have suffered the intense vilification it was soon to experience.

Time Magazine Follows the Lead

A little more than one week later, however, Time magazine published its

own broadside about the Society in an article entitled "The

Americanists." Where People 's World had labeled the Society's local

chapters "cells," so did Time.

Where the communist press had taken Robert Welch's disapproval of

"democracy" completely out of context. Time also made it appear that the

Birch Society's founder was condemning America. (Robert Welch had always

taken great pains to explain that our nation was established as a

republic, not a democracy, and he cited the very strong opinions about

this distinction given by many of America's Founding Fathers.)

And where People's World had erroneously claimed that Hollywood actor

Adolphe Menjou was serving on the Society's national Council, so did

Time.

What is very revealing, however, is that prior to the publication of the

Time article, one of its reporters had interviewed Robert Welch at his

Massachusetts office. The reporter was given three hours of Mr. Welch' s

time, provided with copies of all of the Society publications, and even

shown the misstatements of fact in the People's World article. But, as

it turned out, the staff at Time had already written the article that

its reporter was supposedly researching. And, it also became obvious

that Time's writers had drawn some of their "evidence" from People's

World.

Time went even further than the communists, erroneously claiming that

the Society was steeped in "strictest secrecy," that its "cells" operate

under "dictatorial direction," that its members avoid "normal channels

of political action" and "promote Communist-style front organizations,"

and that "its partisans have made their anonymous presence felt" in many

U.S. communities.

Dictatorial direction? The Society was a completely voluntary

association whose members have always been free to reject suggested

action, even resign if they don't like what the Society says or does.

Avoid normal channels of political action? The Society's greatest

successes had been achieved through member contact with U.S.

representatives and senators from both political parties.

Communist-style front organizations? The Society had no such thing but,

in time, would adopt the well-known American tactic of forming groups

for specific short-range purposes. Unlike communist front organizations,

however, the Society's "ad hoc committees" were always clearly

identified as being launched and directed by the Society solely for the

purposes stated.

As for secrecy and operating anonymously, there never was any such

activity because the Society has always been an open book. In a dramatic

demonstration of the absurdity of these malicious charges, 197 chapters

in California promptly published their full addresses in a paid ad

carried by a Los Angeles newspaper.

Smears Continue and Intensify

With Time taking the lead, virtually all organs of America' s mass media

immediately joined in the attack on the infant John Birch Society. From

being charged with secrecy and being condemned for operating like the

communists, the Society was now being accused of racism, anti-Semitism,

fascism, Nazism, and the whole roster of well-known smears. Members were

called extremists, radicals, super-patriots, ultras, subversives,

lunatics, and fanatics. It seemed as though no stone was left unturned

in tar-brushing a few thousand Americans and the organization they had

joined to learn more about their country and to work together to protect

it from its enemies.

Had all of the charges aimed at the Society come merely from the

communist press, they would have amounted to little more than a petty

annoyance. But they were coming from the nation's mass media_from

newspapers, magazines, and radio and television programming that most

Americans respected. Yet, the tactic being used against the Society was

standard communist fare, obviously being carried out by individuals who

were not party members but were following someone else's lead.

As far back as 1943, a Communist Party directive had instructed members

under communist discipline about methods to use in combating critics. As

quoted by the 1956 Report of the House Committee on Un-American

Activities (volume 1,page 347), here in part is what the directive said:

Members and front organizations must continually embarrass, discredit

and degrade our critics.... When obstructionists become too irritating,

label them as fascist or Nazi or anti-Semitic.... Constantly associate

those who oppose us with those names that already have a bad smell. The

association will, after enough repetition, become "fact" in the public

mind.

When given a chance, Birch Society members would ask: How could the

Society be anti-Semitic when its original national Council, formed in

December 1959, had among its members a prominent New York City Jew named

Alfred Kohlberg? How could it be secret when every member was trying his

utmost to distribute its Blue Book and every other publication it had

ever produced?

How could it be subversive when its leader requested Senate and House

committees, even the FBI, to investigate everything it was doing?

Finally, A Formal Investigation

After having tried unsuccessfully to have the Society examined by

federal agencies. Robert Welch, on March 22, 1961, formally requested

the California Senate Factfinding Subcommittee on un-American Activities

to conduct its own investigation. Senator Hugh M. Burns, its chairman,

responded in the affirmative, and the only investigation of the John

Birch Society ever conducted by an official body was launched.

The subcommittee read through all of the Society' s literature, sent

trained investigators to interview supporters and detractors, took

testimony from scores of persons, examined all of the press accounts

about the Society, even obtained reports from agents sent covertly to

Society chapter meetings. Its work consumed two full years.

On June 12, 1963, the subcommittee filed its 62-page report and released

copies to the press. Opponents of the Society were shocked to discover

that what they hoped would destroy the Society once and for all turned

out, instead, to be a wholesale exoneration of the many charges against

it.

About charges of secrecy and fascism, the subcommittee's report stated:

"We have not found the Society to be either a secret or a fascist

organization, nor have we found the great majority of its members in

California to be mentally unstable, crackpots, or hysterical about the

threat of Communist subversion." (Page 61)

Regarding charges of anti-Semitism and racism, the report offered: "Our

investigations have disclosed no evidence of anti-Semitism on the part

of anyone connected with the John Birch Society in California, and much

evidence to the effect that it opposes racism in all forms." (Page 39)

In its concluding paragraph, the report stated: "Our investigation and

study was requested by the Society, which had been publicly charged with

being a secret, fascist, subversive, un-American, anti-Semitic

organization. We have not found any of these accusations to be supported

by the evidence." (Pages 61-62)

The report pointed out that the all-out attack on the Society had been

launched by the Communist Party "with an article in the People's World,

California Communist newspaper, in February 1961." (Page 25)

A greatly encouraged Robert Welch publicly praised the work of the

subcommittee and thanked its members for carrying out their

investigation "in a completely honorable and objective manner." He noted

that the leaders of the subcommittee were Democrats in a state where

Democrats were led by a Governor and an Attorney General who were known

to be bitter foes of the Society.

The Society then asked for and received permission to copy and

distribute the entire report. Many thousands of copies were sent to

members of the press and to individuals who had repeated many of the

false charges directed at the organization. Members of the Society

purchased and distributed additional copies. But the spirit of fair play

that is supposed to characterize our nation took a back seat as the

attacks on the Society continued exactly as before, and even increased.

These attacks reached a crescendo during the Republican National

Convention in the summer of 1964. At this gathering, before a huge

national television audience, New York Governor Nelson Rockefeller

delivered his famous speech about "extremism," which he insisted was

coming from "the Nazis, the Klan, the communists, and the John Birch

Society."

Repeatedly associating the good name of the John Birch Society with the

deserved bad names of those other groups, he either planted or

solidified a totally false image about the Society in the minds of

millions. That he was booed by many of the delegates at the convention

didn't deter him at all. He knew what he was doing, and he didn't care a

whit about the negative reaction he was generating from members of his

own party. His goal was to hurt the Society. And with the help of allies

in the media, he accomplished his objective.

Years later, many Americans who were affected by the Rockefeller

performance and all of the associated publicity about it remain

completely unable to recall where they got the notion that the John

Birch Society was something to avoid. But their reluctance to have

anything to do with the organization continues. Admitting to themselves

that they have been duped is a lot more difficult than continuing to

ride a widely-created wave of opinion. That wave, however, is losing

most of its power and will soon be completely recognized as a carrier of

despicable falsehood.

Still Adhering to Basic Principles

In many communities across America, a charge that the John Birch Society

harbors anti-Semitism has brought a prompt refutation from a Jewish

member or a Jewish supporter who had done his own investigation.

During the period of the late 1960s, when the Society was widely charged

with racism. Black members and spokesmen crisscrossed the nation

addressing audiences arranged by Society members. Birch Society veterans

of that era will remember with great affection the wonderful work done

by Julia Brown, Lola Belle Holmes, Leonard Patterson, Alvin Smith,

George Schuyler, Freeman Yearling, Charles Smith, and others whose

speeches sought to calm racial tensions and unite all Americans against

a common foe.

Experience has shown that repeating a lie loudly enough and often enough

will cause it to stick with many. This is what happened to the John

Birch Society. Individuals in this nation, most of whom were not

communists, employed the communist tactic of labeling an adversary with

"names that already have a bad smell." For many, they accomplished the

goal of associating the Society with unsavory groups and ideas, and

then having that association become "fact" in the public mind.

The John Birch Society is not guilty, and never has been guilty, of the

various smears of its good name. Any American who may have been affected

by the vilification of this one organization ought to be alarmed that

such a thing could happen in our nation. Who else might be similarly

ridiculed and smeared? What other misinformation has the media

disseminated?

The John Birch Society has no quarrel with anyone who chooses to

disagree with any position it takes_as long as its position has been

presented free of slander and innuendo. In a nation as large as ours,

there are bound to be honest differences of opinion.

All that the Society asks is that its information and point of view be

examined carefully and conscientiously. The intense and thoroughly

dishonest efforts to keep most Americans from doing exactly that ought

to suggest to anyone that its message is important. If its information

and analysis were not significant, why has there been so much effort to

damage its reputation and keep Americans from examining its views?

The John Birch Society was formed to restore and extend freedom. Totally

dedicated to the American system given us by the Founding Fathers, it

seeks to subject government once again to the limitations on its power

contained in the U.S. Constitution. It also seeks to preserve and expand

the free enterprise system, and inspire others throughout the world to

follow America's good example

Society's Potential Scares Enemies

The John Birch Society's entire effort has been summed up in its motto,

"Less government, more responsibility, and_ with God's help_a better

world." And its ardent enemies are those who want more government, a

completely dependent population, an end to national sovereignty, and a

cancellation of the restrictions on government contained in the

Constitution.

What the enemies of the John Birch Society so greatly feared in the

early 1960s was not its few thousand members and its few small

victories. Those who would convert this nation into a "carbon copy of

thousands of despotisms that have come before" feared its potential.

They knew that active citizen groups in the cities and towns of

America_armed with solid information and a strong determination to

remain free_had the potential to block all of their self-serving and

ultimately tyrannical goals. It was the Society's potential that

frightened them and convinced them it had to be destroyed.

The Society was hurt by all of the smears. But it certainly wasn't

destroyed as was intended. Courageous and principled members have kept

the Society going, have reached out and touched the lives of tens of

millions, and are still working for the same goals outlined by Robert

Welch in 1958. In other words, the potential that has always existed

within the Society is still there, realized in some areas, but still to

be realized in a great many more.

-----

excerpted from The John Birch Society Bulletin for March 1992

copyright 1992 by The John Birch Society

[GarthP2000]

Somebody, please! ... Make him stop!!!

I mean, what's next, a marathon of black-and-white Leave It To Beaver episodes?!? Lawrence Welk??

Gad! This s**t is even worse than watching The Brady Bunch with their intro music playing over and over and over and ................

:wacko:

[Tom Strange]

suddenly the song "it can't happen here" keeps bouncing off the walls of my brain...

[igotout]

Oldiesman, please change your log on picture. It is an insult.

You are an idiot too. How dare you! Please do not even speak to me again unless it is by way of apology. My wife's grandparents had relatives and friends who escaped with their lives but some who did not. This is a sore subject with us.

I feel that you are a coward with no testicles. Same with that other dude who posted. Why don't you give your real name, address and phone number so people can talk to you personally. Its easy to hide behind a monitor and hurt people.

Do you by chance live with a guy named Mike? You should marry him and have his baby. Leave me out of your discussions.

[GarthP2000]

Despite Oldies' denials to the contrary, this shows the desperate, nay, the near mentally *ill*, extents that some of VPW's apologists will go to whitewash his reputation. Ie., since Weirwille gives 'creedance' to the revisionist history, it then gains creedance with Oldies and Co.

Oldies, if you are incapable to find a better biblical role model to learn from and model your life after than Victor Paul Wierwille, ... then you are blind.

<_<

[igotout]

Thanks, Garth. It is absurd isn't it? When you finally meet some of these kind of people in real life they are usually losers. They can hide behind a screen and say things, but are usuallynot contributing much to society. I have no more respect for them than a skinhead.

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Oldiesman, please change your log on picture. It is an insult.

You are an idiot too. How dare you! Please do not even speak to me again unless it is by way of apology. My wife's grandparents had relatives and friends who escaped with their lives but some who did not. This is a sore subject with us.

I feel that you are a coward with no testicles. Same with that other dude who posted. Why don't you give your real name, address and phone number so people can talk to you personally. Its easy to hide behind a monitor and hurt people.

Do you by chance live with a guy named Mike? You should marry him and have his baby. Leave me out of your discussions.

C'mon John...tell us how you really feel and quit holding back.

[socks]

Oh, and he is the one who told me that WayDale was probably funded and coordinated by a Jewish organization

Paul Allenstein...?

Edited May 16, 2006 by socks

[What The Hey]

What is absurd? What is absurd is seeing the Holocaust become an object of worship because of the in-humane acts of Hitler against the Jews.

It's been said: The Holocaust cult has it's own tenants of faith, rites and shrines. [Rabbi Michael Goldberg].

It takes the spotlight off the Jews for their own in-humane acts against the Palistinians. Even as far back as 1948 Jewish forces had expelled thousands of Palistinians from their villages. Hundreds of thousands fled in fear. The purpose was simply to create a: pure Jewish state - ethnically cleansed of the original inhabitants who had lived there for centuries before.

Just where did the Jews get that idea? What idea? This idea:

- The forced mass expulsion of a people

- countless citizens imprisoned for political reasons

- multiple massacres

- demolition of homes and villages so the previous inhabitants could never return.

Ya'all still think it is an idea exclusive to Hitler!

The Holocaust is not: a Jewish tragedy being remembered.

It is: a Jewish power to which homage is continually being paid!

That's what I find absurd. (expletive deleted).

[shazdancer]

WTH,

Do some factions of the Jewish community use the Holocaust to promote their own agendas? Yes. Does that make the Holocaust less true? No.

And while we're at it, there are plenty of Jews who disagree with the Israeli policies regarding Palestine.

Oldies,

Next time you want us to read a long article, could you please just provide the link? Copy/pasting that whole long thing makes it look like filibustering, and uses up too much of the website.

And even if that John Birch propaganda article is true, I would have no interest in that organization. Proud to have supported the House Un-American Activities Committee? Puh-leez! If the members disagree with our party line, they are free to leave? Whoopie, a real endorsement of free speech and exchange of ideas , which I thought was the American way.

John,

I understand that this is a hot-button topic in your family. But verbally attacking Oldies will just make him happy. Now he can whine about how nasty we ex-Wayfers are. (See Mike and ck for this tactic.) I for one would love to hear you articulate more about why his stance p...es you off.

Socks,

As always, you crack me up!!!

-- Shaz

Edited May 16, 2006 by shazdancer

[oldiesman]

Somebody, please! ... Make him stop!!!

I mean, what's next, a marathon of black-and-white Leave It To Beaver episodes?!? Lawrence Welk??

Gad! This s**t is even worse than watching The Brady Bunch with their intro music playing over and over and over and ................

:wacko:

Garth, ha! Thanks for the laugh. :)

On a serious note, I really don't know what your problem is... but if you don't like the content of a post, nobody is forcing you to read it.

Oldies, if you are incapable to find a better biblical role model to learn from and model your life after than Victor Paul Wierwille, ... then you are blind.

How many times must you be informed that this issue stands or falls on its own, regardless of the views of Victor Paul Wierwille?

Please quit your repeated accusations of supposed Wierwille apology/worship.

[oldiesman]

Oldiesman, please change your log on picture. It is an insult.

You are an idiot too. How dare you! Please do not even speak to me again unless it is by way of apology. My wife's grandparents had relatives and friends who escaped with their lives but some who did not. This is a sore subject with us.

I feel that you are a coward with no testicles. Same with that other dude who posted. Why don't you give your real name, address and phone number so people can talk to you personally. Its easy to hide behind a monitor and hurt people.

Do you by chance live with a guy named Mike? You should marry him and have his baby. Leave me out of your discussions.

Thanks, Garth. It is absurd isn't it? When you finally meet some of these kind of people in real life they are usually losers. They can hide behind a screen and say things, but are usuallynot contributing much to society. I have no more respect for them than a skinhead.

Oh come on John. You call me an idiot and a coward for posting my opinions on this topic and wanting to debate behind a computer? Gag me. For years, you never once lifted a finger trying to contact me privately in a pm, wanting to discuss something with me, wanting to call me on the phone, wanting to get to know me, etc. etc. I've been around, I'm not hiding.

Yet, you publicly scorn me over this issue like it's something reprehensible now. Where were you all the years in twi, when this didn't seem to bother you? Come on now, why all the high and mighty righteous fervor NOW?

So please, come down from your high horse and if you want to discuss an issue with me privately, pm me and I will gladly give you my full name, address, and phone number.

It goes without saying but, may I suggest that if you can't or won't discuss a topic without resorting to namecalling and acrimony, then please move onto something else. If I had done what you did I'd have been reproved, and have been, with past posts. Seems like a double standard working here?

[oldiesman]

Oldies,

Next time you want us to read a long article, could you please just provide the link? Copy/pasting that whole long thing makes it look like filibustering, and uses up too much of the website.

ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Golly, maybe I shouldn't use up too much of the website on this issue.:lol:

[shazdancer]

In all seriousness, Oldies, maybe you shouldn't, when a link to the article would work just as well.

You said

How many times must you be informed that this issue stands or falls on its own, regardless of the views of Victor Paul Wierwille?

I agree, and the issue of the "myth" of the six million falls. On its own -- hard, on its but-t. Regardless of the views of Victor Paul Wierwille.

But would you have ever even heard of this view had it not been for The Way, Inc.? It is certainly a minority opinion, the domain of skinheads and the ignorant. Plenty of people who had no connection to Judaism or Zionist causes have documented the atrocities. Check out any public library.

In the case of the author of Seed of Sarah, her experience as a Hungarian Jew in Auschwitz-Birkenau was as a teenager, and she didn't understand the relevance of half of what she saw. Her experiences were put into the larger context by others after the fact, and bore out her story as true. Kind of like our experiences in TWI, though on a less horrific scale.

She recalled coming upon a burning pile of bodies at the train station, both of the dead and the insane from the transport trains. It was later verified that toward the end of the war, the death camp crematoria couldn't keep up with the large numbers coming in, so some were dealt with this way. She recalled the lines of people being split into workers and non-workers. It was later verified that all those that went to the line on the left were gassed. And so on.

Really, Oldies, you should go talk with the prisoners who were there, and the soldiers from WWII who freed them. Talk to them, while there is still time left. See the pain in their faces. Touch the tattoos on their arms. Be a Doubting Thomas no longer. ;)

-- Shaz

[oldiesman]

Before he died, I asked my dad whether he thought 6,000,000 Jews were killed, and he didn't think so.

Not that his opinion was authoritative, because he wasn't there when the alleged gassings/murders occurred. But he did see some of the bloodiest fighting at the time.

He was in the Rhineland battle, thru France, then Germany.

He told me tales of feeding a poor hungry little girl among the ruins, where daily, she'd come to ask for food.

He won a number of medals, including two Purple Hearts.

There is a book out there where you can read about some of his experiences. He's even quoted in the book.

Rhineland-The Battle To End The War

Edited May 16, 2006 by oldiesman

[DesertVis]

Oldies,

I certainly appreciate your father's service, heroism, and sacrifices to the most noble war effort in the past 200 years. And, I appreciate your admitting that his opinion was not authoritative. And that is just it - it was not authoritative - anymore than asking me whether 2 million S.E. Asians died in re-education camps after our congress left the S. Vietnamese hanging in 1975.

Well, actually, there is a whole lot of evidence that the 2 million died in S.E. Asia - but not as much as the evidence that the holocaust happened and happened with the magnitude that is common knowledge.