It doesn't really matter to me whether it's six million, three million or six hundred thousand... it was GENOCIDE and it was wrong... to deny it is wrong...
Also... WTH... regarding the "witness" thing and the "proof" thing... why don't you do those guys a favor (the folks who publish that stuff you believe) to watch a little "History Channel" and "Discovery Channel"... ???
I know those channels weren't around back then, they've got a lot of proof now... (as if they didn't before)
Wikipedia (thanks Raf) lists 48 different camps. Of those, 10 are listed as "extermination camps," while 17 others are listed as "other major concentration camps." The rest are a mix of smaller concentration and labor camps or transition stations.
Auschwitz-Birkenau was the largest of the death camps, with some 1.5 million exterminated there. In the book The Seed of Sarah, the author recalls people being herded from the cattle cars into 2 lines. The line to the right went to the showers and then to the camp; but everyone over 40 went into the line to the left to a different set of "showers," and were never seen again.
But there was more than one way to exterminate people. If they weren't gassed, they might be shot for crimes real or imagined. Some died of disease, such as pneumonia or complications from typhus, which was rampant in the camps due to lice. Some died of hypothermia or heat stroke due to the harsh working conditions of forced labor. Some died of starvation. And some, wishing to avoid such cruel suffering, simply took their own lives, sometimes by throwing themselves against the electronic fences that surrounded the camps.
It can be argued that a minority died of "natural causes," such as disease, or of complications in childbirth. But there is no way of knowing how many of these could have been prevented had there been access to a hospital.
There is a book called THE DOCTOR OF THE DAMNED that What the Hey should read ... I will not lower myself to nitpick about numbers ... but this is the EYEWITNESS account of a doctor who lived through it. It is captivating reading ....
The problem is genetics has proven that the Ashkenazi Jews share a Middle Eastern, not Eastern European, ancestry.
Many do, some don't.
After reviewing some of the material that Raf suggested, it makes a great argument that most modern Jews are descendants of Shem.
Some are not, as was suggested by Arthur Koestler. But even Koestler didn't suggest that all modern Jews came from Khazars, but only some.
Koestler didn't even suggest that all Ashkenazi Jews came from Khazars, as some may have thought in twi, but only a portion.
Dr. Wierwille was wrong when he stated flatly "the Jews are not semitic".
He would have been correct had he stated "some Jews are not semitic".
******************
Interestingly, if the Jews fight the Arabs, the Jews can be labelled anti-semitic, since the Arabs are semitic as well. :P
All of this is quite interesting stuff and one doesn't have to be a bona fide Nazi to believe it.
Quote from information:
Additional, more comprehensive genetic testing may help us to understand the extent of any Khazar contribution to the Ashkenazi gene pool. For now, I can point out that the Israelite traces among the East European Jews came from three sources: (1) Sephardic Jews fleeing Spain and Portugal and resettling in Lithuania and Poland, (2) Roman Jews, and from (3) Khazarian Jews who merged with Israelites, just as the Schechter Letter states "they became one people". The Khazars and the Israelites mixed with each other.
Are all Jews around the world descended from the Khazars? Certainly not. East European Jewish ancestry originates substantially from ancient Judea, and the same is true of most other modern Jewish populations (with the exception of groups like Libyan Jews and Ethiopian Jews). But, it is rational to conclude that some Jews also have some Khazar ancestors.
Here's the website that contains the above quote and a plethora of information about this topic:
Interesting stuff OM, I'm sure. The question that hasn't been answered yet is: "Why is there this constant pressure (especially from the media) on us to remember the Holocost"? Perhaps the more important question to ask would be: Whose interests does it serve? The answer to those questions won't be answered here or by those who want to exploit the Holocost. In fact, in some countries it is illegal to debate the Holocost as there are: Holocost Denial laws in effect in those countries. (What will be coming down the pike for the US - a "Holocost Remembrance" commemorative day?) From the responses to my last few posts (which are largely excerpts from a book by: David Hoggan, Phd) some people don't want the propaganda campaign to be challenged. They prefer the opposing view to be "silenced" so these important questions would go by unanswered.
In that article Mark Weber (the director of the Institute for Historical Review) quotes Yehuda Bauer, a prominent Holocaust specialist (a professor at the Hebrew University in Israel): "Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books of prose or poetry dealing with the subject, [the Holocost] and the flood is increasing rather than abating.”
I believe that is an accurate assesment. I am currently aware that even this evening as I am responding on the Holocost topic here, there will be another "Holocost documentary" on public television. If you are planning on watching it (or another Holocost doumentary) I think you will be enlighted by the article written by: Mr. Mark Weber at the Instutute for Historical Review website: Institute for Historical Review. The article is located here:
I find it rather interesting that you want us to first read your article and deal with the points that it brings up, and yet you summerily dismiss, out of hand, the points (and links) that we bring up supporting that the Holocaust actually occured, not the least of which is the reasoning why the Holocaust is brought up time and again: so something like that never happens again! Thus the so-called 'flood' of specials, articles, and so on. (Which should answer that question that you claim hasn't been answered yet. Ehh, its been answered alright. You just don't want to deal with it.)
You don't want to deal with said specials, articles, and so on? Fine. Don't read/see them. Don't want to deal with a 'day of remembrance'? Fine. Don't go. Nobody's making you, and your rights have not been violated one iota. Hell, how many times have non-believers in the Christian religion have to put up with Christmas (the religious Jesus Christ based variaty) over and over again, year after year, ... and yet I know that you have no problem with not only society continuing it, but folks like you even want government supported Christmas, with publically funded displays and all. If the Holocaust (which doesn't even deal with religious specific incidents) even gets a quarter of that kind of public attention, you have a hissy fit and act as tho' "The Jews are taking over! The Jews are taking over!"
:huh: Tell me something guy. Does your loyalty to The Word of God as taught by VPW require you to take seriously this Nazi flavored *crap*? Is that what the One True God expects of you? Tell me true, ..... if you've got the courage that is.
The most important thing to know is that God would not allow the Nazi's to kill so many people. Therefore I believe the book is right on this one no more than 1.5 million were killed. So when the Nazi's release there records I believe a number around 1.5 and 2 million were killed. That is my opinion and I believe VPW and LCM were right also.
The most important thing to know is that God would not allow the Nazi's to kill so many people. Therefore I believe the book is right on this one no more than 1.5 million were killed. So when the Nazi's release there records I believe a number around 1.5 and 2 million were killed. That is my opinion and I believe VPW and LCM were right also.
CK
Are you mad???
God wouldn't allow the Nazis to kill so many people but He would allow the commies to kill 3-4 times as many in Russia and many multiples of that many in China??
So, God would allow 1 or 2 million to die, but not six million? Where is the logic in that? Is there a specific cut off to how many people god will allow to die during a particular event/war/natural disaster?
In that article Mark Weber (the director of the Institute for Historical Review) quotes Yehuda Bauer, a prominent Holocaust specialist (a professor at the Hebrew University in Israel): "Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books of prose or poetry dealing with the subject, [the Holocost] and the flood is increasing rather than abating.”
Well thank goodness there are works continuing to come out on the topic, if only by reason of preserving the memories and experiences of any remaining "witnesses" which are rapidly passing away daily.
It is wise to record these witnesses while it's possible, because the population of that era - be they veterans, refugees, survivors, etc. - is thinning out as we speak. It's good to preserve their recollections before they are forever lost to us.
In fact, my own father, a WWII veteran who fought in the "pacific theatre", passed away 2 years ago.
There will soon come a time when there will be no more first-hand eyewitnesses to interview (perhaps 20-30 years from now?).
Let's hope the trend continues of getting all this stuff preserved in writing, on film, or whatever other means possible, because we are literally running out of time.
The most important thing to know is that God would not allow the Nazi's to kill so many people. Therefore I believe the book is right on this one no more than 1.5 million were killed. So when the Nazi's release there records I believe a number around 1.5 and 2 million were killed. That is my opinion and I believe VPW and LCM were right also.
CK
I see...your usual impeccable logic CK.
Edited by Oakspear
While everyone whines about the poor jews let me find a rag to cry a tear. Let me tell you what I think, you guys just hate VPW so much that you just have to disagree with everything that he said. Let us flash forward to now we (USA) pay for everything for the jews. The jews wouldn't even have a country without us. The jews would still be persecuted today if it weren't for us. The USA supports the jews and without our money where would they be. Now I am not saying that the germans didn't kill anyone all I am saying is that the jews made up the number.
Let me tell you what I think, you guys just hate VPW so much that you just have to disagree with everything that he said. Let us flash forward to now we (USA) pay for everything for the jews. The jews wouldn't even have a country without us. The jews would still be persecuted today if it weren't for us. The USA supports the jews and without our money where would they be.
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Tom Strange
I said it before... I'll say it again...
Also... WTH... regarding the "witness" thing and the "proof" thing... why don't you do those guys a favor (the folks who publish that stuff you believe) to watch a little "History Channel" and "Discovery Channel"... ???
I know those channels weren't around back then, they've got a lot of proof now... (as if they didn't before)
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GarthP2000
Tom,
Because WTF (errr--H :D) would probably 'reason' that the Discovery and History Channels are run by Jews.
<_<
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dmiller
A question here ---- How many concentration camps were there??
Can anyone list them all?? Just curious.
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Tom Strange
Oh yeah... I forgot about that...
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rhino
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties
that shows deaths by country ... amazing that around 62 million died in WW2
besides the holocaust deaths, there were another 31 million civilian deaths
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Raf
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dmiller
Thank you, Raf.
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SafariVista
My Mother was born in Germany in 1922, the oldest of four.
Her Father was a school teacher/pastor.
Her Father became a German Officer.
Her Mother died shortly after giving birth to the youngest, of breast cancer.
My Mother met Hitler. Her early views of him were that of a good man.
She has vivid memories of Hitler's change, and the horrible things he did to Jews and others.
She was a nurse during WWll.
Her memories of that time are frightening to me.
The Holocaust happened.
She recalls the homes of these Jews being 'gone through'... their valuables taken as treasure...
Speak to someone who was there... hurry, before it's too late...
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shazdancer
Wikipedia (thanks Raf) lists 48 different camps. Of those, 10 are listed as "extermination camps," while 17 others are listed as "other major concentration camps." The rest are a mix of smaller concentration and labor camps or transition stations.
Auschwitz-Birkenau was the largest of the death camps, with some 1.5 million exterminated there. In the book The Seed of Sarah, the author recalls people being herded from the cattle cars into 2 lines. The line to the right went to the showers and then to the camp; but everyone over 40 went into the line to the left to a different set of "showers," and were never seen again.
But there was more than one way to exterminate people. If they weren't gassed, they might be shot for crimes real or imagined. Some died of disease, such as pneumonia or complications from typhus, which was rampant in the camps due to lice. Some died of hypothermia or heat stroke due to the harsh working conditions of forced labor. Some died of starvation. And some, wishing to avoid such cruel suffering, simply took their own lives, sometimes by throwing themselves against the electronic fences that surrounded the camps.
It can be argued that a minority died of "natural causes," such as disease, or of complications in childbirth. But there is no way of knowing how many of these could have been prevented had there been access to a hospital.
Never again.
Shaz
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SafariVista
We can hope it would never happen again... but who knows~
There is so much hate out there... there are those that would gladly take Americans and treat us in a similar fashion...
But our government officials are playing a game it seems, and what we hear on the 'news' is not always the truth...
:(
We've also seen a climb in a hate for illegal aliens and non English speaking folks...
I may not agree with all that's done in our Country... but I wouldn't want to kill anyone over an opposing view...
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DogLover
There is a book called THE DOCTOR OF THE DAMNED that What the Hey should read ... I will not lower myself to nitpick about numbers ... but this is the EYEWITNESS account of a doctor who lived through it. It is captivating reading ....
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oldiesman
Many do, some don't.
After reviewing some of the material that Raf suggested, it makes a great argument that most modern Jews are descendants of Shem.
Some are not, as was suggested by Arthur Koestler. But even Koestler didn't suggest that all modern Jews came from Khazars, but only some.
Koestler didn't even suggest that all Ashkenazi Jews came from Khazars, as some may have thought in twi, but only a portion.
Dr. Wierwille was wrong when he stated flatly "the Jews are not semitic".
He would have been correct had he stated "some Jews are not semitic".
******************
Interestingly, if the Jews fight the Arabs, the Jews can be labelled anti-semitic, since the Arabs are semitic as well. :P
All of this is quite interesting stuff and one doesn't have to be a bona fide Nazi to believe it.
Quote from information:
Here's the website that contains the above quote and a plethora of information about this topic:
www.khazaria.com
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What The Hey
Interesting stuff OM, I'm sure. The question that hasn't been answered yet is: "Why is there this constant pressure (especially from the media) on us to remember the Holocost"? Perhaps the more important question to ask would be: Whose interests does it serve? The answer to those questions won't be answered here or by those who want to exploit the Holocost. In fact, in some countries it is illegal to debate the Holocost as there are: Holocost Denial laws in effect in those countries. (What will be coming down the pike for the US - a "Holocost Remembrance" commemorative day?) From the responses to my last few posts (which are largely excerpts from a book by: David Hoggan, Phd) some people don't want the propaganda campaign to be challenged. They prefer the opposing view to be "silenced" so these important questions would go by unanswered.
In that article Mark Weber (the director of the Institute for Historical Review) quotes Yehuda Bauer, a prominent Holocaust specialist (a professor at the Hebrew University in Israel): "Hardly a month passes without a new TV production, a new film, a number of new books of prose or poetry dealing with the subject, [the Holocost] and the flood is increasing rather than abating.”
I believe that is an accurate assesment. I am currently aware that even this evening as I am responding on the Holocost topic here, there will be another "Holocost documentary" on public television. If you are planning on watching it (or another Holocost doumentary) I think you will be enlighted by the article written by: Mr. Mark Weber at the Instutute for Historical Review website: Institute for Historical Review. The article is located here:
Holocost Remembrance: What's behind the Campaign? Those who were looking for me to respond to those type of questions would best be benefited by reading this article first.
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GarthP2000
I find it rather interesting that you want us to first read your article and deal with the points that it brings up, and yet you summerily dismiss, out of hand, the points (and links) that we bring up supporting that the Holocaust actually occured, not the least of which is the reasoning why the Holocaust is brought up time and again: so something like that never happens again! Thus the so-called 'flood' of specials, articles, and so on. (Which should answer that question that you claim hasn't been answered yet. Ehh, its been answered alright. You just don't want to deal with it.)
You don't want to deal with said specials, articles, and so on? Fine. Don't read/see them. Don't want to deal with a 'day of remembrance'? Fine. Don't go. Nobody's making you, and your rights have not been violated one iota. Hell, how many times have non-believers in the Christian religion have to put up with Christmas (the religious Jesus Christ based variaty) over and over again, year after year, ... and yet I know that you have no problem with not only society continuing it, but folks like you even want government supported Christmas, with publically funded displays and all. If the Holocaust (which doesn't even deal with religious specific incidents) even gets a quarter of that kind of public attention, you have a hissy fit and act as tho' "The Jews are taking over! The Jews are taking over!"
:huh: Tell me something guy. Does your loyalty to The Word of God as taught by VPW require you to take seriously this Nazi flavored *crap*? Is that what the One True God expects of you? Tell me true, ..... if you've got the courage that is.
<_<
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templelady
I can think of no more compelling reason
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ckmkeon
The most important thing to know is that God would not allow the Nazi's to kill so many people. Therefore I believe the book is right on this one no more than 1.5 million were killed. So when the Nazi's release there records I believe a number around 1.5 and 2 million were killed. That is my opinion and I believe VPW and LCM were right also.
CK
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markomalley
Are you mad???
God wouldn't allow the Nazis to kill so many people but He would allow the commies to kill 3-4 times as many in Russia and many multiples of that many in China??
WTF, over?
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Abigail
So, God would allow 1 or 2 million to die, but not six million? Where is the logic in that? Is there a specific cut off to how many people god will allow to die during a particular event/war/natural disaster?
VP said, it that settles it :blink:
Oy Vey
(yeah, yeah, I am one of those "non Jewish" Jews)
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GarthP2000
Oohhhhh I see, .... *ONLY* 1 1/2 to 2 million people. ... Ohhhh, is THAT all.
(((whew)))
You're right Mark. They are mad. ... Irrevocably, over-the-top, call-the-men-in-their-white-coats-to-come-and-take-them-away-ha-ha, mad!
:wacko:
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TheInvisibleDan
Well thank goodness there are works continuing to come out on the topic, if only by reason of preserving the memories and experiences of any remaining "witnesses" which are rapidly passing away daily.
It is wise to record these witnesses while it's possible, because the population of that era - be they veterans, refugees, survivors, etc. - is thinning out as we speak. It's good to preserve their recollections before they are forever lost to us.
In fact, my own father, a WWII veteran who fought in the "pacific theatre", passed away 2 years ago.
There will soon come a time when there will be no more first-hand eyewitnesses to interview (perhaps 20-30 years from now?).
Let's hope the trend continues of getting all this stuff preserved in writing, on film, or whatever other means possible, because we are literally running out of time.
Soon there will only be us old hippies.
Danny
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Oakspear
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ckmkeon
While everyone whines about the poor jews let me find a rag to cry a tear. Let me tell you what I think, you guys just hate VPW so much that you just have to disagree with everything that he said. Let us flash forward to now we (USA) pay for everything for the jews. The jews wouldn't even have a country without us. The jews would still be persecuted today if it weren't for us. The USA supports the jews and without our money where would they be. Now I am not saying that the germans didn't kill anyone all I am saying is that the jews made up the number.
CK
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dmiller
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GarthP2000
... never mind. This is like trying to reason with the psychotically insane.
Here's what CK and his fellow VPW defenders come off looking like more and more:
while 'Springtime For Hitler and Germany' plays softly in the background .....
((shakes my head))
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