Sin is the Problem

[T-Bone]

Reading some recent threads having a similar theme of the evil behavior of certain TWI leaders – I began reviewing a topic foreign to TWI that I "discovered" after leaving the organization. It's a small, three-letter word – "sin." Now before anyone gets their dander up and says, "Here comes the holier-than-thou-dude on his high horse – he needs a ladder to get on it 'cause he's short on love." So, let me explain a few things. In my opinion, I am the foremost authority – a veritable expert on the sin in my life. That gives me the right to talk about it. And second, in my opinion it's the number one culprit that screws with people's minds, attacks marriages, family, friends, careers and has often laid siege on many a Christian's relationship with God. And third – I believe it's a lot easier to be on the lookout for sin in my life then pretending I can scan the spiritual atmosphere from the bridge of the Star Ship Advanced Class 79 – "Captain, sensors do not indicate any devilish life forms are present."

Where am I going with this? I don't know – maybe it's to clarify some things in my head about my TWI experience. Believe me I'm really not wanting to start another exposé on the sins of the board of trustees. It's more like an exposé on the cause of our own "spiritual dysfunction" while in TWI…Furthermore – I don't know how to express this delicate point to all who read this thread and respond – but I'll try. Threads that review the sins of TWI leadership are necessary and serve as a warning beacon [as in II Peter 2: 1-22]. They're like a field guide for snakes – the varieties, habitats, etc. This thread I was hoping to be more like a first aid kit for snakebites. In my opinion, TWI was weak on sin [softening it with "broken fellowship," a zillion teachings on you being righteous] – which became like a rampant virus infecting the way we function intellectually, emotionally, socially, etc.

The following is from The Christian Counselor's Manual, by Jay E. Adams, co. 1973, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, excerpts from Chapter 14 Sin is the Problem:

"…Counselors must become cognizant of the fundamental themes of sin. These fundamental themes are apparent in the account of the first sin recorded in Genesis 3…Fundamentally, the problem of the first sin amounted to this: Adam and Eve opted for the satisfaction of desire rather than for obedience to the commandment of God…All of the common themes of sin grow out of the desire-oriented life.

A look at Genesis 3 discloses some of the basic themes and shows that: Adam and Eve sinned because they rejected the Word of God…in the last resort a rejection of God Himself…This rejection led to serious consequences…the judgment of God, the expulsion from the Garden, the curse of the ground, and the souring of interpersonal relationships between the man and his wife resulted. Within, man's nature was corrupted – with all of the baneful consequences that flow there from – and a bad conscience was felt in the painful emotional responses that it triggered. All of these results themselves became occasions for more sin. The intertwining complexities of tangled living began to be experienced. Sin brought complications to life.

Man began to run, to hide and avoid, to cover up. The wicked flees when no man pursues. In a thousand ways counselees still do the same. The materials from which they weave their garments may be more sophisticated, but the Christian counselor knows to look for the fig leaves. He also sees innumerable patterns of avoidance. He may hide behind intellectualism rather than trees; but unless smitten by repentance he hides…

…Man began to shift the blame: Adam said, "The woman that you gave me, she…" Eve declared, "The serpent, he…" Hardly any husband and wife whose marriage is on the rocks will be free from much blame shifting. They will blame one another, their circumstances, relatives, etc… Christian counselors must learn how to teach counselees to sort out the proper responsibilities each bears toward God and one another…"

Edited April 19, 2006 by T-Bone

[ex10]

Wow t-bone, you been reading my mind? or what?

I've been thinking about the whole "sin" subject lately, too, in light of its non-existence in TWI theology.

Just one minor point, I don't think Adam and his lovely mate rejected "the word of God," but they rejected God Himself. (Ok, I see you made that point, nevermind.)

Wonderful musings though.

Edited April 19, 2006 by ex10

[allan w.]

Well said T-Bone. My take on them is that they believe that they are so 'right on' with 'The Word' that God kinda looks past the sin stuff ( for them).

[TheEvan]

Being weak on sin made it weak on grace. Grace has meaning only in light of the awfulness of sin

[shazdancer]

Remember, they didn't teach that messing up was "sin" after you were born again. It was "broken fellowship." Even though the Greek word was still the word for "sin," it wasn't sin any longer. That never made sense to me from an "integrity of the Word" point of view.

Isn't "broken fellowship" euphemistic? Like, it's not so bad, just say sorry and get back in with God.

You even hear that viewpoint expressed here by those who still follow VP's teachings. His sins weren't so bad, they say, when compared to how he taught "The Word." But my Bible says that how God's people treat each other is of HUGE import to God.

Regards,

Shaz

[SafariVista]

Fantastic T-Bone... this is something I've been thinking about for years.

It really is simple, and we teach our children, when they do something wrong, don't LIE... just admit it and take the consequence.

Yes, an uncomfortable situation will most likely follow... but hey, that's life!

Seems the Ten Commandments as a whole were left OUT of TWI for the simple reason of allowing the disgusting, twisted habits of some to continue... Loving God w/ all your heart... and your neighbor as yourself didn't seem to have much meaning there~

I've heard many arguments over the years from people justifying their sins... all Word based... well, no one's perfect... we all sin... don't you speed?, all sin in the same to God... we're not saved because of works, it's grace

should we sin that grace may abound? NO!!! GOD FORBID!

We've had believer parents serve alcohol to our children & theirs- ages 12-15...

Well... here I go offering the sins of others, while I know I have many...

But my point is, situations could not be taken care of since nothing was a 'big deal' to them... they just wanted to walk in love, grace covers...blah, blah, blah.... we were made out to be the bad guys for bringing it up

When I find I'm wrong in an area, I feel bad... I don't want to do, think and live in sin... I want to be pleasing to God, and having something good to offer to others...

[ex10]

Yup, Evan. Thus the unbearable legalism......

Quite a twisted tangle of a mess, huh?

[Belle]

T-Bone, Thank you so much!! Thank you, too, for your posts being much easier to read. :)

Shaz, I never thought of the “sin” vs. “out of fellowship” euphemism, but that’s exactly what it is!!

They wanted us to say “devil spirit” instead of “demon” because it diminished the evil associated with them, but then they turn around and do the exact same thing with “sin”.

Yes, we all sin. It’s just easier to focus on someone else’s sin than it is to focus on mine.

I’m conflicted about TWI’s teachings, though….on one hand all we seemed to do was pick out devil spirits, talk about other churches and groups and how “off” they were, but on the other hand we had to be constantly vigilant and striving for the perfection that was expected of us.

It’s like everything we did was wrong or not good enough. When something bad happened we had screwed up somewhere and that was the first thing someone asked when we were sick, had a car crash, broke a leg, needed surgery…. “Where’d you miss it?” It got to where we were always thinking about where we might have “missed it” and then scared to death of what the consequences of that might be.

Externally, people were “out to lunch” in the “egg sucking world” where they “couldn’t find their @$$ in the dark with a flashlight and a map”. It was so easy to see where others were so pathetic compared to us. We were allowed to be high and mighty holier than thou believers who lived much better lives because we were living in “alignment & harmony”.

Those quotes in the last paragraph are things we heard craig say over and over and over again.

Edited April 19, 2006 by Belle

[T-Bone]

It can be a real downer thinking back on my TWI days about how much I cheated on my wife [oh boy!!! Tonto is saying "What?!?!?!"]. I poured so much of my time and energy into running classes, running twig or branch, being in a ministry coffee house band, working a regular paying job - there was very little left of me to share with Tonto...All that work - great for my ego, very self-centered, I looked very spiritual, super dedicated - totally ignoring the needs and responsibilities of my marriage...No one made me do any of those things - it falls back into my court - the sinful way I set priorities, or ignored one of the most important relationships in my life....Okay - right now I'm doing like Jimmy Swagg8rz, tears running down my cheeks - "I have sinned!!!!". The more I think of it - realistically I don't think I'd have had the time, energy or interest to commit adultery back then. Besides - I was already having an affair with an organization...

Edited April 19, 2006 by T-Bone

[penguin]

I was thinking about this topic in my car today because the song, "Amazing Grace" came on the radio. I realized an example of twi's sin problem was in that song! Remember for at least 20 years the official sing along the way songbook had the word "soul" instead of "wretch" in the stanza "that saved a wretch like me"

Very interesting, yes?

[templelady]

Yep, I can see tons of Sin in my life in TWI ( still have lbs of it :unsure: ), But I was reproved only about those "sins" which involved me not giving leadership what they felt was their due. I could have turned tricks on 4th Avenue as long as I ABS'd, and they wouldn't have cared

[ex10]

Yeah, I really hate sin, as it can really cloud one's vision, and mess ya up big time.

I so wish it didn't exist.......but alas, it does.

It was a real rude awakening to me, when I left the cult, and had to face my own SIN, all by myself with no bible rationalizations going on.

Geeeze, I hated it.

Stll do, matter of fact.

Edited April 21, 2006 by ex10

[dmiller]

I was thinking about this topic in my car today because the song, "Amazing Grace" came on the radio. I realized an example of twi's sin problem was in that song! Remember for at least 20 years the official sing along the way songbook had the word "soul" instead of "wretch" in the stanza "that saved a wretch like me"

Very interesting, yes?

I remember the *official* twi version being --- *Saved someone, like me ----

(Sung by Claudette ----------- )

Guess *wretch* wasn't in twi vocabulary, even then -- eh??

[penguin]

I guess you are correct--no "wretch" allowed in wayspeak.

Now we don't need to walk around feeling like worms all the time, but when we sin, we need to call it sin, ask forgiveness, try to change and move on knowing God's grace is BIG and can cover all of our mistakes. twi just tried to block out recognizing our own sins and focused on grace. BOTH need to be in the picture for us to change and grow.

[George Aar]

I'm sorry, I think you're mistaken.

I think WayWorld was always very strong on "sin". I'd say they actually excelled at it...

[penguin]

Well, maybe I should clarify. twi ignored things like the 10 commandments and loving your neighbor as yourself. That to me these days is what helps us recognize sin.

I agree that certain other categories that really wont matter in the long run are what twi defined as sin and made us feel like we didnt measure up. (But those ideas and standards are the ones I am eliminating!)

(Ex. Impecably clean home---I go for the "lived in" look now. Doing every single suggestion by leadership. Not writing cheesy thank you notes for boring teachings. If something goes wrong I "missed it somewhere")

[SafariVista]

Even though TWI claimed to be clean and balanced, knowing what the moderation in all was, and was able to teach this to the Corps, and they of course would make sure 'all the people' knew... they were very wrong.

Loving God DOES NOT mean giving our allegiance to any organization or man- EVER.

Loving our neighbor as ourselves DOES NOT mean ignoring people and their needs (in any category) and only speaking bible verses to them.

And then... of course loving ourselves DOES NOT mean making sure we've done all we can for the household, wasting our money by not investing, and allowing pressure from others (leadership who seem to think they know what's best for us)

They got this wrong... what does this tell people?!?!?! TWI's practices and teachings are teaching people error, which when followed, these people are sinning!!!

Beware!

Edited April 21, 2006 by SafariVista