This thread isn't about whether VPW OR LCM asked for forgiveness from God. I would hope that all Christians would lay their souls bare before the Father and ask forgiveness from HIM for their sins against him.
I am with Belle on this one..........how on EARTH can anyone compare LCM with the Apostle Paul? The very thought is nauseating, other than the fact that both were men of flesh and blood, the similarities end there. Paul was an unbeliever that persecuted Christians, but once he became born again, he spent the rest of his life reconciling men and women to God.
LCM on the other hand, from all accounts (mine included) was a decent man that became EVIL and devilish in his words, actions and lifestyles and spent majority of his adult life glorifying the devil by his very life.
I certainly hope he has asked God for forgiveness, it is the least a believer should do.
The topic here is whether or not LCM has ever admitted that he has ruined thousands of lives, some so deeply they committed suicide, and then asked the individuals to forgive him.
Consider THIS ....tha Paul committed those heinous acts BEFORE.. BEFORE.. BEFORE .... the life impacting experience that changed him from a Christian killing religious zealot to the power filler Christian who impacted so many lives in the name of God !!
LCM and VPW were BOTH supposedly born again Christians BEFORE they vilely betrayed and destroyed so many Christians lives.
Paul did it BEFORE he was born again...with no spirit of God within him....the actions were unthinkable after he was changed..which leads me to wonder how on EARTH a genuine Christian could have so heartlessly destroyed so many, as was sop for twi leaders...
ALSO, Paul THOUGHT he was working for God - He thought he was doing the Godly thing by getting rid of these "Christians" - his intentions were pure and good and zealous the entire time.....he did horrible things, but those bloody Egyptians were killed in the name of God, too....so was Jezebel and many other folks in the Bible...all killed in the name of God.
Not only were vee pee and craiggers aware that what they were doing was wrong - they also KNEW they weren't acting according to any desires of God, whereas the others above thought they were.
I don't know if they every repented, but "Loy Craig Martindale" is still alive and his lack of action speaks very loudly to me that he's not remorseful. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
****************
Let's look at it this way - according to TWIt doctrine, then:
Let’s see about “godly sorrow” exhibited by craiggers according to his own teachings and doctrine. My comments will be in italics
This article written by Bob Moynihan appeared in the September/October 1997 rag.
Responding to Confrontation
Evidence of Change
2 Cor 7 shows us in very specific ways what worked in the Corinthian believers’ hearts after they received confrontation, thereby providing signposts for us to live and apply today.
It is God’s desire and good pleasure for faithful disciples of the household of the one Body to submit themselves to His Word and to one another (Eph 5:21). When that loving respect for God and His Word is lacking in the life of a fellow believer in the household, confrontation is necessary.
Confrontation is necessary, yet Dottie merely counseled women raped by Craig and Bob did nothing when different people told him of Craig’s mis-behavior. Craig’s wife and Rosie not only condoned his behavior, but also facilitated it. Poor Craig never got the confrontation he should have… All he had around him were enablers.
Another day my wife comes home from the store with a brand new set of curtains for every single window in the home. She spends so much money that it exceeds our budgeted amount for the year. I am responsible for the finances and so I don’t ignore this situation just because “I don’t want to have a fight”. I speak up.
So, they will speak up about placing a picture of David Letterman in the living room and about spending money on curtains, but they say NOTHING about Craig raping women?? Hmm…..what kind of priorities do the TWIt leadership have??
Whenever situations are confronted within the household, …. we must work together in order to see the harmonious functioning of the one Body. Some confrontations are handled simply on a day-by-day basis….. Other matters are deep-rooted old-man habits which require intense, passionate attention and radical change.
It is these more difficult situations that require the believer who needs to change and the individual(s) confronting him to have a standard used to measure that change has taken place.
Confrontation is a vital part of presenting every believer perfect in Christ. When confronted, how does this person know whether he or she is making progress and properly responding to the confrontation? After confronting a situation, what signposts should the confronting believer look for when following up with the confronted individual?
2 Cor 7 has a section on “godly sorryow” which gives us the characteristics and attitudes that should be evident in people’s lives if they are committed to change.
2 Cor 7:7
And not by his (Titus’s) coming only, but by the consolation (paraklesis)[also] wherewith he was comforted (parakaleo) in [by] you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning [lamenting], your fervent mind [zeal, fervor] toward me [to “us” in Aramaic]; so that I rejoiced the more.
The heart and manner of response of the one confronted is vital. … When Titus reported back to Paul, he relayed their earnest desire, their mourning and their fervent mind toward Paul and the other apostles. These were the elements of response Paul and Titus were looking for so Paul rejoiced at seeing this response.
Has Craig demonstrated earnest desire, mourning and a fervent mind toward the Allens and Ms Parker for confronting him? Has he shown earnest respect and desire to those who were kicked out of TWI for confronting him? Has he communicated any mourning beyond being so doped up on prescription drugs that he appears that way?
Besides that, have the Moynihans expressed any of these things for allowing these kinds of destruction of people’s lives to go on despite being confronted on it?
“Earnest desire” indicates the Corinthian believers’ desire to have full sharing fellowship with Paul…. The Corinthian believers were not purposefully avoiding Paul and his leadership, oversight and direction. On the contrary, they were greatly longing to be with him physically and desired that their thinking, speech and actions would show their association with him.
“Mourning” indicates the Corinthians were lamenting their wrongs and errors or their mistakes. They expressed a genuine remorse and grief regarding those things Paul confronted them on.
“Fervent mind” is from the Greek word zealos. ….demonstrating… a passion toward Paul and the other apostles. Rather than holding on to their hurt feelings, justifying their error, and complaining about how they were confronted. These Corinthians had a passion for the truth that Paul represented and spoke.
Seems to me this whole section is like they were worshipping Paul and not God. But, still if we’re going to evaluate Craig’s true “godly sorrow” as taught by TWI, this is the kind of action we should be able to document, no? It’s what Bob, Craig and others used as signposts and documented proof that someone wasn’t sorry and should be M&A
***********
Comments from others:
"The heart and manner of response of the one confronted is vital."
Isn't God the judge of hearts? Not according to the MOG - nope. If you weren't bawling your eyes out and licking their boots, you were scum. No matter your heart or intent.
The other alert that this is twisted is that...
What MAN gives a rip what his wife spends on drapes as long as she makes it up to him once those drapes have been pulled? ;)
2 Cor 7:7 shows three elements necessary in the heart of the one confronted:
1) Longing to fully share with the leadership
2) Expressing genuine remorse for the error or mistake
3) Demonstrating zeal toward the leadership
All three were vital to bring comfort to Paul.
2 Cor 7:8-9
For though I made you sorry with a letter….I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance…
Verse 8 indicates Paul did not regret having confronted and reproved the Corinthians. Instead, he rejoiced that they grieved unto repentance. Repentance is a mental change of principle of motivation due to positive action. The Corinthians changed their minds.
Every action is preceeded by a thought. So repentance, changing of their minds, was a vital aspect of their sorrowing. They did not wallow but rather took action by changing their minds and purpose. As a result of their thinking, they also changed their speech and life-styles. This was evident by the fruit produced in their lives.
Has Craig changed his mind? Has he changed his purpose, speech and lifestyle? I don’t know – if he’s not out raping women it’s probably because he doesn’t have his wife, Rosie and Ramona pimping for him anymore – just mo, though.
We KNOW Bob & Dottie haven’t changed theirs or they wouldn’t still be living off TWIt tit in the UK instead of in the US where they’d much rather be near those grandbabies. Pity the things one does for the love of money….
2 Cor 7:9 – For ye were made sorry after a godly manner [according to God’s mind and will], that ye might receive damage in nothing.
Paul confronted the believers and reproved their inappropriate behavior, speech and thinking in the household so that the believers would suffer no loss or injury! Paul, as the minister of God, was a helper of their joy.
2 Cor 7:10 – For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Verse 10 reinforces verse 9 by saying that godly sorrow will be evidenced by repentance, a change in behavior, to salvation or wholeness which endures. This is what Rev. Martinpuke has taught us: If we make up our minds to strengthen our lives where we have weakness, we can get so strong there, we need never have weakness in that area of our lives again.
I’m curious, think someone who has been sober and involved with AA for ten years would agree with that? Why didn’t Boob and Dootie make up their minds to protect God’s kids from craiggers and the abuse they knew was going on? Why didn’t craiggers himself, Donna and the slimy fox make up their minds to get rid of their weakness?
What happened to leading by example?
2 Cor 7:11 - ….ye sorrowed after a godly sort….what carefulness…what clearing of yourselves….indignation…fear…vehement desire….zeal….revenge! ….clear in this matter.
This verse shows the aggressive mindset of the Corinthians as they took believing action to restore themselves to alignment and harmony with God and HIS HOUSEHOLD. Looking at all these qualities listed above will help us recognize the characteristics and attitudes indicating that change is actually happening in a person’s life after he has been confronted.
“carefulness” is the Greek word “spoude” – diligence, emphasizing no delay or waste of time in putting forth effort in whatever one is doing in his service to the Lord.
So, there should be an immediate, eager response by the confronted individual to the end that there is “serious purpose” to correct his error. This is not merely an outward, happy, enthusiastic response. When a person has godly sorry, he responds by finding the scripture that addresses his hneed. Then he speaks, thinks and acts according to the word of God with immediate diligence. The desired changes can take place right away. And even with behavior patterns that may take more time to establish, this immediate, eager response initiates the process. We should not have to strain to see this; it should be evident!
Why hasn’t TWI come out and expressed great sorry and immediate zeal to correct all the practical and doctrinal error that they used and allowed to ruin people’s lives? There should have been teachings all over the place about confronting leadership – about not covering for leadership – about being honest to your people – about caring for the flock ----- sooooo many areas TWI should have expressed true godly sorrow and WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO STRAIN TO SEE THIS; BOB, IT SHOULD BE EVIDENT!!
“Clearing of yourselves” is from the Greek word apologia. This word is better translated “an answer of truth in the face of accusation and criticism.” In order for the confronted one to clear himself, he must proclaim what God wills to be spoken, the truth. This requires him to know the word and will of God as it applies to his situation and then to bodly speak and evidence that word in his life.
THIS is why I think an apology is necessary. THIS is why I think it’s absolute b.s. to think that that man is sorry one iota for what he did. Even in his taped response about stepping down from the presidency he wasn’t apologetic – it was a “nuisance” to him and he so much as said so. It was one annoying fly in the ointment – there wasn’t even a HINT of remorse…and wasn’t, even later when the lawsuits finally came around and he had to speak…
Wouldn’t an answer of truth in the face of accusation and criticism mean that they admit the truth about what they were doing wrong?
The believer should be able to re-establish himself in the heart of the Word and the fellowship of the household to the end that he can clearly identify the allure and methods of the adversary by which he was deceived. Further, he should then be able to honestly and openly share how he has applied the Word of God to manifest the deliverance of God and what he has done to maintain his deliverance.
Where, again, is GOD in this? I’m to “manifest my own deliverance”? However, we’re talking about remorse and godly sorrow according to TWI – which, we’ve yet to see any of this exhibited by craig, bobby, doottie, donna, rosie nor any of the other cronies…
“Indignation” is from the Greek word aganaktesis…physical pain and irritation: hence, vexation, annoyance”
Likewise, the confronted believer should have an “attitude” about the adversary and his devices….Operation of the truths and principles taught in our DTA class would replace the voids and weaknesses that allowed the adversary to gain entrance … to the end that he determines never to be beaten in that area again.
Where’s the example – the LIVING EXAMPLE for us?? Where’s the evidence that craiggers has done any of this? Craig nor TWI has a single one, do they? Didn’t think so.
Posted by: Kevlar2000 Feb 14 2006, 01:12 PM
...2) Expressing genuine remorse for the error or mistake...
Why hasn’t TWI come out and expressed great sorry and immediate zeal to correct all the practical and doctrinal error that they used and allowed to ruin people’s lives?
To express sorrow and remorse, one usually has acknowledge they did something wrong, and have to be sorry they did it.
I don't get the sense they believe they ever did anything wrong.
ALSO, Paul THOUGHT he was working for God - He thought he was doing the Godly thing by getting rid of these "Christians" - his intentions were pure and good and zealous the entire time.....
For crying out loud, Jesus himself had to come down and knock Paul over the head and get him to stop persecuting. Pauls intentions were not good and pure. They certain were zealous.
When Paul was consenting to Stephens death, what Paul did was not pure and good.
Golly even I see this. Talk about whitewashing someone's sins.
But hey when it comes to Wierwille and Martindale, there is no mercy.
The actions you describe about Paul...........HAPPENED BEFORE HE WAS BORN AGAIN.....not after he was already in charge of the church!!!!
The difference between Paul and LCM.........Paul persecuted and tortured and destroyed Christians lives.......BEFORE HE GOT BORN AGAIN, LCM did it after he got born again.
I don't think the point is whether anyone is actually born again or not. It's that they are in a position of ministering and did evil when they damn well know that what they are doing is wrong.
Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of]the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
I didn't say he was RIGHT - I said he THOUGHT he was doing what God would have him do!!! When he learned better - he did better.
He was sincere - sincerely wrong - but Paul was always working for God in the best way he knew how. Just like those 9/11 hijackers - they thought they were working for God / Allah - whatever you want to call him. They're wrong, imo, but they were zealous to do what they thought was right.
vee pee and craig did worse the better they learned.... They knew what was right and never did it - especially after finding out how much they could get away with and how easy it was to rape the flock.
There's a BIG - HUGE difference between Paul and those two predators. To even TRY to compare them is assinine and insane.
Do I believe Paul apologized? I don't know, but I can certainly ascertain that he actually repented and changed his ways whereas neither vee pee nor craig would ever be convicted in a court of law for doing so --- just not enough evidence to prove they did. Craig's still alive - he could make amends or at least attempt to, but I don't see it happening.
I still believe he's born again because of God's promise and God does not lie
Yeah but you gotta admit that WIERWILL sure the heck did!
hmmmm wierwille exhibits an alarming number of *fleshly* traits....
He indulges himself in unbridled lust, uncontrolled adiction, and incapacitating alcoholism.
He REPEATEDLY destroys innocent believers lives...
His doctrines caused the death of many believers....
All of this AFTER he was supposedly born again????
Sorry, I don`t see the evidence of fruit .....nor have I ever heard of him describing the experience the new birth.....
I don`t think he understood it, I think that he believed that his formulas and knowledge would get him there.....obviously, he was mistaken....or he couldn`t have been so calloused in his destruction of Christians.
Let's stay on topic as OM is want to throw tangents in where he can.
Paul is not in any way, shape or form comparable to vee pee or craig.
IF one insists on using Paul as the example - vee pee nor craig has exhibited any godly sorrow....
- not according to the example of Paul's life
- not according to the teachings from Paul about godly sorrow
Looking at Moynihan's teaching I posted excerpts from above - there is absolutely not one iota of evidence that either man repented or expressed godly sorrow for their actions.
Craig is still alive, but we have yet to see any of these qualities exhibited in his life. We have yet to hear of any apologies from him to anyone.
The point is NOT whether they were born again.
The point is not whether they "got right with God" -
The point I'm speaking to is exhibiting proper godly sorrow - proper remorse and making amends, which, I believe, the Bible does teach.
I think at the very least - TWI doctrine as laid out in Bob Moynihan's article - should be the measuring stick for craig's remorse since those teachings come from him and his leadership and are approved of by craig's cronies at hq.
None of those qualities are exhibted by craig - None of them are exhibited by Robert C. Moynihan nor his wife Dottie, for that matter.....but he did write the article.
The point I'm speaking to is exhibiting proper godly sorrow - proper remorse and making amends, which, I believe, the Bible does teach.
We don't know what if any remorse or amends Paul made to a family who he destroyed.
We don't know, unless there are biblical references and I don't see any specific.
I believe that was the original point of the comparison made,
and not showing remorse and making amends doesn't mean the person isn't sorry or remorseful and doesn't mean the godly fruit that came from the spirit is counterfeit.
If Paul didn't directly apologize to those he harmed or their families, then he apologized in the exemplary manner of his life after his conversion. That is, he repented - which means to change - to stop. He stopped harming people.
Asking God's forgiveness, is one thing - repentance is another.
Where is Mo with that fruit bowl for this apples, oranges and banana salad?
Here, I've thrown in some coconut too
All through the Epistles Paul again and again points the finger at himself describing what he was, what Christ did, and what Christ continues to do in his life. The Epistles are letter after letter of a man citing his own failings and the wonders of Christ's atonement , and his [Paul's] repentance to explain the dramatic turn around in his life and an example that it will work for others the same way.
In order for there to be a comparison between VPW and LCM. we would need to have read or heard something along the following lines.
I got out of fellowship with GOD, and I sinned :( by having illicit sexual relations with women, I have repented and will ot repeat my evil behavior.
Not one peep along those lines or anywhere close to it.
Forget apologizing to specific individuals, VPW and LCM never admitted they did anything wrong in the first place. If as OM claims they might have done it privately, that really dosen't fill the bill does it? Paul's example shows the private I'm sorry isn't enough, there has to be a public acknowledgement also.
If Wierwille's and Martindale's and others' characters are such that they had or have no remorse for their sins, then that are their characters, and have little or nothing to do with the doctrine taught, which stands or falls on its own.
OM - don't go throwing pineapples into this salad - stay on topic. THAT'S not the issue and NOT the topic - there's plenty of threads already on here where you can discuss that.
If Wierwille's and Martindale's and others' characters are such that they had or have no remorse for their sins, then that are their characters, and have little or nothing to do with the doctrine taught, which stands or falls on its own.
Yep. Trying that sidestep once again. You never stick to the topic OM.
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Tom Strange
What Belle said... for the most part... :)
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oldiesman
Do you KNOW that Dr. Wierwille and Craig didn't ask God for forgiveness?
Do you KNOW they weren't sorrowful for their sins?
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Tom Strange
Do YOU? ...didn't think so...
IF you have something, anything that might lead one to believe they did... please do post it.
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Radar OReilly
OM,
This thread isn't about whether VPW OR LCM asked for forgiveness from God. I would hope that all Christians would lay their souls bare before the Father and ask forgiveness from HIM for their sins against him.
I am with Belle on this one..........how on EARTH can anyone compare LCM with the Apostle Paul? The very thought is nauseating, other than the fact that both were men of flesh and blood, the similarities end there. Paul was an unbeliever that persecuted Christians, but once he became born again, he spent the rest of his life reconciling men and women to God.
LCM on the other hand, from all accounts (mine included) was a decent man that became EVIL and devilish in his words, actions and lifestyles and spent majority of his adult life glorifying the devil by his very life.
I certainly hope he has asked God for forgiveness, it is the least a believer should do.
The topic here is whether or not LCM has ever admitted that he has ruined thousands of lives, some so deeply they committed suicide, and then asked the individuals to forgive him.
Radar
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rascal
Woooah...wait a miniute here....
Consider THIS ....tha Paul committed those heinous acts BEFORE.. BEFORE.. BEFORE .... the life impacting experience that changed him from a Christian killing religious zealot to the power filler Christian who impacted so many lives in the name of God !!
LCM and VPW were BOTH supposedly born again Christians BEFORE they vilely betrayed and destroyed so many Christians lives.
Paul did it BEFORE he was born again...with no spirit of God within him....the actions were unthinkable after he was changed..which leads me to wonder how on EARTH a genuine Christian could have so heartlessly destroyed so many, as was sop for twi leaders...
Just one more thing that makes you go hmmmmmm
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oldiesman
Actually Radar the topic is whether Paul apologized, and the answer we don't know.
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Belle
ALSO, Paul THOUGHT he was working for God - He thought he was doing the Godly thing by getting rid of these "Christians" - his intentions were pure and good and zealous the entire time.....he did horrible things, but those bloody Egyptians were killed in the name of God, too....so was Jezebel and many other folks in the Bible...all killed in the name of God.
Not only were vee pee and craiggers aware that what they were doing was wrong - they also KNEW they weren't acting according to any desires of God, whereas the others above thought they were.
I don't know if they every repented, but "Loy Craig Martindale" is still alive and his lack of action speaks very loudly to me that he's not remorseful. I could be wrong, but I don't think so.
****************
Let's look at it this way - according to TWIt doctrine, then:
Let’s see about “godly sorrow” exhibited by craiggers according to his own teachings and doctrine. My comments will be in italics
This article written by Bob Moynihan appeared in the September/October 1997 rag.
Responding to Confrontation
Evidence of Change
2 Cor 7 shows us in very specific ways what worked in the Corinthian believers’ hearts after they received confrontation, thereby providing signposts for us to live and apply today.
It is God’s desire and good pleasure for faithful disciples of the household of the one Body to submit themselves to His Word and to one another (Eph 5:21). When that loving respect for God and His Word is lacking in the life of a fellow believer in the household, confrontation is necessary.
Confrontation is necessary, yet Dottie merely counseled women raped by Craig and Bob did nothing when different people told him of Craig’s mis-behavior. Craig’s wife and Rosie not only condoned his behavior, but also facilitated it. Poor Craig never got the confrontation he should have… All he had around him were enablers.
Another day my wife comes home from the store with a brand new set of curtains for every single window in the home. She spends so much money that it exceeds our budgeted amount for the year. I am responsible for the finances and so I don’t ignore this situation just because “I don’t want to have a fight”. I speak up.
So, they will speak up about placing a picture of David Letterman in the living room and about spending money on curtains, but they say NOTHING about Craig raping women?? Hmm…..what kind of priorities do the TWIt leadership have??
Whenever situations are confronted within the household, …. we must work together in order to see the harmonious functioning of the one Body. Some confrontations are handled simply on a day-by-day basis….. Other matters are deep-rooted old-man habits which require intense, passionate attention and radical change.
It is these more difficult situations that require the believer who needs to change and the individual(s) confronting him to have a standard used to measure that change has taken place.
Confrontation is a vital part of presenting every believer perfect in Christ. When confronted, how does this person know whether he or she is making progress and properly responding to the confrontation? After confronting a situation, what signposts should the confronting believer look for when following up with the confronted individual?
2 Cor 7 has a section on “godly sorryow” which gives us the characteristics and attitudes that should be evident in people’s lives if they are committed to change.
2 Cor 7:7
And not by his (Titus’s) coming only, but by the consolation (paraklesis)[also] wherewith he was comforted (parakaleo) in [by] you, when he told us your earnest desire, your mourning [lamenting], your fervent mind [zeal, fervor] toward me [to “us” in Aramaic]; so that I rejoiced the more.
The heart and manner of response of the one confronted is vital. … When Titus reported back to Paul, he relayed their earnest desire, their mourning and their fervent mind toward Paul and the other apostles. These were the elements of response Paul and Titus were looking for so Paul rejoiced at seeing this response.
Has Craig demonstrated earnest desire, mourning and a fervent mind toward the Allens and Ms Parker for confronting him? Has he shown earnest respect and desire to those who were kicked out of TWI for confronting him? Has he communicated any mourning beyond being so doped up on prescription drugs that he appears that way?
Besides that, have the Moynihans expressed any of these things for allowing these kinds of destruction of people’s lives to go on despite being confronted on it?
“Earnest desire” indicates the Corinthian believers’ desire to have full sharing fellowship with Paul…. The Corinthian believers were not purposefully avoiding Paul and his leadership, oversight and direction. On the contrary, they were greatly longing to be with him physically and desired that their thinking, speech and actions would show their association with him.
“Mourning” indicates the Corinthians were lamenting their wrongs and errors or their mistakes. They expressed a genuine remorse and grief regarding those things Paul confronted them on.
“Fervent mind” is from the Greek word zealos. ….demonstrating… a passion toward Paul and the other apostles. Rather than holding on to their hurt feelings, justifying their error, and complaining about how they were confronted. These Corinthians had a passion for the truth that Paul represented and spoke.
Seems to me this whole section is like they were worshipping Paul and not God. But, still if we’re going to evaluate Craig’s true “godly sorrow” as taught by TWI, this is the kind of action we should be able to document, no? It’s what Bob, Craig and others used as signposts and documented proof that someone wasn’t sorry and should be M&A
***********
Comments from others:
"The heart and manner of response of the one confronted is vital."
Isn't God the judge of hearts? Not according to the MOG - nope. If you weren't bawling your eyes out and licking their boots, you were scum. No matter your heart or intent.
The other alert that this is twisted is that...
What MAN gives a rip what his wife spends on drapes as long as she makes it up to him once those drapes have been pulled? ;)
2 Cor 7:7 shows three elements necessary in the heart of the one confronted:
1) Longing to fully share with the leadership
2) Expressing genuine remorse for the error or mistake
3) Demonstrating zeal toward the leadership
All three were vital to bring comfort to Paul.
2 Cor 7:8-9
For though I made you sorry with a letter….I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance…
Verse 8 indicates Paul did not regret having confronted and reproved the Corinthians. Instead, he rejoiced that they grieved unto repentance. Repentance is a mental change of principle of motivation due to positive action. The Corinthians changed their minds.
Every action is preceeded by a thought. So repentance, changing of their minds, was a vital aspect of their sorrowing. They did not wallow but rather took action by changing their minds and purpose. As a result of their thinking, they also changed their speech and life-styles. This was evident by the fruit produced in their lives.
Has Craig changed his mind? Has he changed his purpose, speech and lifestyle? I don’t know – if he’s not out raping women it’s probably because he doesn’t have his wife, Rosie and Ramona pimping for him anymore – just mo, though.
We KNOW Bob & Dottie haven’t changed theirs or they wouldn’t still be living off TWIt tit in the UK instead of in the US where they’d much rather be near those grandbabies. Pity the things one does for the love of money….
2 Cor 7:9 – For ye were made sorry after a godly manner [according to God’s mind and will], that ye might receive damage in nothing.
Paul confronted the believers and reproved their inappropriate behavior, speech and thinking in the household so that the believers would suffer no loss or injury! Paul, as the minister of God, was a helper of their joy.
2 Cor 7:10 – For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of, but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
Verse 10 reinforces verse 9 by saying that godly sorrow will be evidenced by repentance, a change in behavior, to salvation or wholeness which endures. This is what Rev. Martinpuke has taught us: If we make up our minds to strengthen our lives where we have weakness, we can get so strong there, we need never have weakness in that area of our lives again.
I’m curious, think someone who has been sober and involved with AA for ten years would agree with that? Why didn’t Boob and Dootie make up their minds to protect God’s kids from craiggers and the abuse they knew was going on? Why didn’t craiggers himself, Donna and the slimy fox make up their minds to get rid of their weakness?
What happened to leading by example?
2 Cor 7:11 - ….ye sorrowed after a godly sort….what carefulness…what clearing of yourselves….indignation…fear…vehement desire….zeal….revenge! ….clear in this matter.
This verse shows the aggressive mindset of the Corinthians as they took believing action to restore themselves to alignment and harmony with God and HIS HOUSEHOLD. Looking at all these qualities listed above will help us recognize the characteristics and attitudes indicating that change is actually happening in a person’s life after he has been confronted.
“carefulness” is the Greek word “spoude” – diligence, emphasizing no delay or waste of time in putting forth effort in whatever one is doing in his service to the Lord.
So, there should be an immediate, eager response by the confronted individual to the end that there is “serious purpose” to correct his error. This is not merely an outward, happy, enthusiastic response. When a person has godly sorry, he responds by finding the scripture that addresses his hneed. Then he speaks, thinks and acts according to the word of God with immediate diligence. The desired changes can take place right away. And even with behavior patterns that may take more time to establish, this immediate, eager response initiates the process. We should not have to strain to see this; it should be evident!
Why hasn’t TWI come out and expressed great sorry and immediate zeal to correct all the practical and doctrinal error that they used and allowed to ruin people’s lives? There should have been teachings all over the place about confronting leadership – about not covering for leadership – about being honest to your people – about caring for the flock ----- sooooo many areas TWI should have expressed true godly sorrow and WE SHOULD NOT HAVE TO STRAIN TO SEE THIS; BOB, IT SHOULD BE EVIDENT!!
“Clearing of yourselves” is from the Greek word apologia. This word is better translated “an answer of truth in the face of accusation and criticism.” In order for the confronted one to clear himself, he must proclaim what God wills to be spoken, the truth. This requires him to know the word and will of God as it applies to his situation and then to bodly speak and evidence that word in his life.
THIS is why I think an apology is necessary. THIS is why I think it’s absolute b.s. to think that that man is sorry one iota for what he did. Even in his taped response about stepping down from the presidency he wasn’t apologetic – it was a “nuisance” to him and he so much as said so. It was one annoying fly in the ointment – there wasn’t even a HINT of remorse…and wasn’t, even later when the lawsuits finally came around and he had to speak…
Wouldn’t an answer of truth in the face of accusation and criticism mean that they admit the truth about what they were doing wrong?
The believer should be able to re-establish himself in the heart of the Word and the fellowship of the household to the end that he can clearly identify the allure and methods of the adversary by which he was deceived. Further, he should then be able to honestly and openly share how he has applied the Word of God to manifest the deliverance of God and what he has done to maintain his deliverance.
Where, again, is GOD in this? I’m to “manifest my own deliverance”? However, we’re talking about remorse and godly sorrow according to TWI – which, we’ve yet to see any of this exhibited by craig, bobby, doottie, donna, rosie nor any of the other cronies…
“Indignation” is from the Greek word aganaktesis…physical pain and irritation: hence, vexation, annoyance”
Likewise, the confronted believer should have an “attitude” about the adversary and his devices….Operation of the truths and principles taught in our DTA class would replace the voids and weaknesses that allowed the adversary to gain entrance … to the end that he determines never to be beaten in that area again.
Where’s the example – the LIVING EXAMPLE for us?? Where’s the evidence that craiggers has done any of this? Craig nor TWI has a single one, do they? Didn’t think so.
Posted by: Kevlar2000 Feb 14 2006, 01:12 PM
...2) Expressing genuine remorse for the error or mistake...
Why hasn’t TWI come out and expressed great sorry and immediate zeal to correct all the practical and doctrinal error that they used and allowed to ruin people’s lives?
To express sorrow and remorse, one usually has acknowledge they did something wrong, and have to be sorry they did it.
I don't get the sense they believe they ever did anything wrong.
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oldiesman
For crying out loud, Jesus himself had to come down and knock Paul over the head and get him to stop persecuting. Pauls intentions were not good and pure. They certain were zealous.
When Paul was consenting to Stephens death, what Paul did was not pure and good.
Golly even I see this. Talk about whitewashing someone's sins.
But hey when it comes to Wierwille and Martindale, there is no mercy.
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Radar OReilly
OM,
OOOPs, you are right, we are talking about Paul.
The actions you describe about Paul...........HAPPENED BEFORE HE WAS BORN AGAIN.....not after he was already in charge of the church!!!!
The difference between Paul and LCM.........Paul persecuted and tortured and destroyed Christians lives.......BEFORE HE GOT BORN AGAIN, LCM did it after he got born again.
ror
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oldiesman
And the point is what? That he lost his salvation? That he'll burn in hell?
I still believe he's born again because of God's promise and God does not lie.
I know that belief conflicts with the religion of my youth.
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Nottawayfer
I don't think the point is whether anyone is actually born again or not. It's that they are in a position of ministering and did evil when they damn well know that what they are doing is wrong.
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Belle
Come on, are you really that dense, OM????
I didn't say he was RIGHT - I said he THOUGHT he was doing what God would have him do!!! When he learned better - he did better.
He was sincere - sincerely wrong - but Paul was always working for God in the best way he knew how. Just like those 9/11 hijackers - they thought they were working for God / Allah - whatever you want to call him. They're wrong, imo, but they were zealous to do what they thought was right.
vee pee and craig did worse the better they learned.... They knew what was right and never did it - especially after finding out how much they could get away with and how easy it was to rape the flock.
There's a BIG - HUGE difference between Paul and those two predators. To even TRY to compare them is assinine and insane.
Do I believe Paul apologized? I don't know, but I can certainly ascertain that he actually repented and changed his ways whereas neither vee pee nor craig would ever be convicted in a court of law for doing so --- just not enough evidence to prove they did. Craig's still alive - he could make amends or at least attempt to, but I don't see it happening.
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rascal
Yeah but you gotta admit that WIERWILL sure the heck did!
hmmmm wierwille exhibits an alarming number of *fleshly* traits....
He indulges himself in unbridled lust, uncontrolled adiction, and incapacitating alcoholism.
He REPEATEDLY destroys innocent believers lives...
His doctrines caused the death of many believers....
All of this AFTER he was supposedly born again????
Sorry, I don`t see the evidence of fruit .....nor have I ever heard of him describing the experience the new birth.....
I don`t think he understood it, I think that he believed that his formulas and knowledge would get him there.....obviously, he was mistaken....or he couldn`t have been so calloused in his destruction of Christians.
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oldiesman
We still don't know whether he asked God for forgiveness, or what exactly is in his heart.
If he really is the mean monster that some believe, it would be good for us to be praying for him.
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Belle
Let's stay on topic as OM is want to throw tangents in where he can.
Paul is not in any way, shape or form comparable to vee pee or craig.
IF one insists on using Paul as the example - vee pee nor craig has exhibited any godly sorrow....
- not according to the example of Paul's life
- not according to the teachings from Paul about godly sorrow
Looking at Moynihan's teaching I posted excerpts from above - there is absolutely not one iota of evidence that either man repented or expressed godly sorrow for their actions.
Craig is still alive, but we have yet to see any of these qualities exhibited in his life. We have yet to hear of any apologies from him to anyone.
The point is NOT whether they were born again.
The point is not whether they "got right with God" -
The point I'm speaking to is exhibiting proper godly sorrow - proper remorse and making amends, which, I believe, the Bible does teach.
I think at the very least - TWI doctrine as laid out in Bob Moynihan's article - should be the measuring stick for craig's remorse since those teachings come from him and his leadership and are approved of by craig's cronies at hq.
None of those qualities are exhibted by craig - None of them are exhibited by Robert C. Moynihan nor his wife Dottie, for that matter.....but he did write the article.
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Tom Strange
OM... you're working on your merit badge as well aren't you?
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Belle
Actually, OM, you're wrong - as usual....
Where'd I put that "ignore" button???? <_<
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oldiesman
We don't know what if any remorse or amends Paul made to a family who he destroyed.
We don't know, unless there are biblical references and I don't see any specific.
I believe that was the original point of the comparison made,
and not showing remorse and making amends doesn't mean the person isn't sorry or remorseful and doesn't mean the godly fruit that came from the spirit is counterfeit.
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oldiesman
I think that was one of the points Sogwap was making but I could be wrong.
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Goey
If Paul didn't directly apologize to those he harmed or their families, then he apologized in the exemplary manner of his life after his conversion. That is, he repented - which means to change - to stop. He stopped harming people.
Asking God's forgiveness, is one thing - repentance is another.
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templelady
Here, I've thrown in some coconut too
All through the Epistles Paul again and again points the finger at himself describing what he was, what Christ did, and what Christ continues to do in his life. The Epistles are letter after letter of a man citing his own failings and the wonders of Christ's atonement , and his [Paul's] repentance to explain the dramatic turn around in his life and an example that it will work for others the same way.
In order for there to be a comparison between VPW and LCM. we would need to have read or heard something along the following lines.
I got out of fellowship with GOD, and I sinned :( by having illicit sexual relations with women, I have repented and will ot repeat my evil behavior.
Not one peep along those lines or anywhere close to it.
Forget apologizing to specific individuals, VPW and LCM never admitted they did anything wrong in the first place. If as OM claims they might have done it privately, that really dosen't fill the bill does it? Paul's example shows the private I'm sorry isn't enough, there has to be a public acknowledgement also.
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
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oldiesman
One other thing I'd like to mention:
If Wierwille's and Martindale's and others' characters are such that they had or have no remorse for their sins, then that are their characters, and have little or nothing to do with the doctrine taught, which stands or falls on its own.
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Belle
OM - don't go throwing pineapples into this salad - stay on topic. THAT'S not the issue and NOT the topic - there's plenty of threads already on here where you can discuss that.
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diazbro
Yep. Trying that sidestep once again. You never stick to the topic OM.
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