And, I might add, I think it not irresponsible of Oldiesman to bring up what he brought up. Rape is, in my book, a very heinous crime, worthy of castration or death. Even newspapers and newscasters use the term "alleged" when referring to someone who has even confessed to a murder, rape, or crime, until after there is an actual conviction. Why should we be less responsible than the news media?
I fully agree Jonny.
I'm a little surprised the word is allowed to be used so freely here judging the proven good sense of the moderators.
Golly, even on Waydale there was more responsible use of that word.
And, I might add, I think it not irresponsible of Oldiesman to bring up what he brought up. Rape is, in my book, a very heinous crime, worthy of castration or death. Even newspapers and newscasters use the term "alleged" when referring to someone who has even confessed to a murder, rape, or crime, until after there is an actual conviction. Why should we be less responsible than the news media?
You have a point... but saying that unless someone is convicted in a court of law then rape did not occur is a lot different than the point you are bringing up...
Here's one for you Jonny... the press and news media uses the term "alleged" because they do not want to be sued for slander or defamation of character IF THEY'RE WRONG...
"Why should we be less responsible than the news media?"
I don't think it's a question of "responsibility" (we're not the media)
Here's two thoughts for you to ponder:
1) Why hasn't LCM sued anyone for slander or defamation of character?
2) The folks who accuse him of it are not wrong so they do not fear the lawsuit
Belle...imo I think it pretty much is still on topic. I've not been real comfortable with this 'new insight' about lcm. I've felt all along that there's something not quite right with this thread.
Now...
But, dear Darlene Louise Thelma, me and you are having our first disagreement! Woo hoo! :)
Anybody can allege anything. To be fair, observants need more proof, need to hear both sides, for something to be believable.
Why bother having lawsuits at all?
Just accuse someone of rape based upon the words of the one party, and that's that...
Oldies,
I think you need to walk in the shoes of some who have experienced the rape. Maybe you would be more compassionate. Maybe you would feel the pain of that kind of violation. That fact that it was done in the name of God makes is worse. The fact is that VPW isn't here to defend himself. If he were, he would probably lie about it. There are way too many who were sent away and called "possessed" after they reacted to his actions (rape).
LCM will never come forward to admit he raped. He did not have consentual sexual affairs. A person in a position of a minister has a HUGE responsibility, and they both failed miserably with their responsibilities. They used their power to do harm. That is WRONG!!!
I disagree and think it's the same dam n tangent he pulls when the credibility of their teachings doesn't work to derail a thread. He's the Mike of this topic.
Some folks know that OM has a vested interest in protecting the rapists and those who helped procure the victims for them to rape....but we can't go there without getting into big trouble.
But, go ahead - y'all have at it......
And.....that's a noogie 'cause I still love you - I just disagree ;)
FACT: HE HAS TOTALLY DERAILED THIS THREAD - CAN WE START A NEW ONE SO THIS ONE CAN STAY ON TOPIC???????????????
I don't think Oldies derailed it. He just gave his point of view to Freud. People freely told Freud of the alleged rapes, but that was not a de-rail. Oldies simply stated that there were no proven rapes, which is his opinion, which has now been jumped upon with indignation which is the actual de-rail if there actually was a de-rail.
And Tom, point well taken. I'm sure the news media will say anything it can get away with, and would drop the words "allege" and "allegation" if they could. But, on the other hand, considering the statement; "A man is considered innocent until proven guilty", something Americans believe to be right and just, I think that there is some merit to what Oldies is saying. And even if the news media uses the word allege to protect themselves from lawsuits, I still believe that it is the responsible thing to do. Kobe Bryant was accused of rape. It was referred to as an alleged rape in the news. It turns out that "he did have sex with that woman", but that he did not rape her. "Just" committed adultry.
And now I'll post this. But this fight is moving so quickly that I may now be ten posts behind! Whew!
1) Why hasn't LCM sued anyone for slander or defamation of character?
Maybe because Craig knows that he abused his power, hurt people in so many other ways that he just wants to walk away from it all. Maybe Freud here has actually met a broken man who broke himself and just wants to walk away instead of firing up a legal battle. The adultry lawsuit was already a defeat for him, so why would he want to keep stirring it up?
2) The folks who accuse him of it are not wrong so they do not fear the lawsuit
The folks accuse him may not be wrong and fear no law suit. But I do not know that they are right. I only know what they are alleging, and won't accuse someone of rape if I do not know that they did it.
People can state what they will, but a rape needs to be proven in a court of law with all sides testifying under oath and subject to cross examination.
This is what got my attention. It simply is not true.
The folks accuse him may not be wrong and fear no law suit. But I do not know that they are right. I only know what they are alleging, and won't accuse someone of rape if I do not know that they did it.
I don't know that anyone would ever expect YOU to accuse him. I think the point (as I see it) is that "I wouldn't accuse him since I wasn't there, but I wouldn't pass a blanket accusation of 'LIAR' on everyone who did and say things like 'rape didn't occur unless it's proven in a court of law'..."
Maybe because Craig knows that he abused his power, hurt people in so many other ways that he just wants to walk away from it all. Maybe Freud here has actually met a broken man who broke himself and just wants to walk away instead of firing up a legal battle. The adultry lawsuit was already a defeat for him, so why would he want to keep stirring it up?
C'mon Jonny... of course that's a possibility BUT... if YOU were the one being accused would you just "let it go"...? I don't think I would or could...
I'd like to add two points. One, a conviction does not guarantee guilt. It is a mutual decision and sadly, by the # overturned lately, the wrong one.
Two, by the constant argument Oldies has I can only assume he must have heard a gal say, "don't and stop," but got her to "give in" by pressure and persistance on more than one occassion. Yes, it's date rape and I know a lot of you ex-wayfer "men of God" are guilty as hell of that and maybe it is easier for Oldies to say, "where is the proof?" rather than, "I'm sorry".
I mean, I have no 'insider's' or 'behind-the-scenes' information about ya, OM. I harbor no ill will towards you. I post what I post to you out of concern...because I don't think you honestly know how you're coming across...or how your reasoning (as posted out here in the open-to-all threads) often follows the same reasoning perpetrators use to discredit their victims...so there will be no trial...or, if there is, nothing will come of such a trial...because the 'reasonable doubt' was placed by the perpetrator into the minds of the victims themselves...so why wouldn't those who were not actual victims have 'reasonable doubt'?
You see, OM, it is quite typical for a perpetrator to make the victims doubt if what happened really happened.
Like lcm stating that his affairs were 'consensual sex'.
Yeah. Right. LCM got 'consent' only after threats, mental/emotional/spiritual torture, beguilement, ridicule, mockery, shame, and a myriad of other forms of intense coercion and manipulation.
And vpw drugged many of his victims to get 'consent'.
I understand a need in many to have things 'proven' to them. Heck, if I'd been so inclined, I'd never have been involved with twi in the first place.
But rape is a thing that goes beyond simple facts.
The physical part of rape is all too often just the end result of a long, long time of 'preparing' the victim. (Which, btw, usually proves out to be the real 'turn on' in the rapist's mind...not the spurt at the end of it all.)
Rape happens not just to the body, but all too often it first happens to the mind and the soul.
How can one 'prove' that?
It just usually isn't believed regardless of any proof, anyway.
And that's the story of the Way International: the rape of body, soul and spirit.
That you never felt raped is lucky, OM.
Or, what I'm beginning to wonder, is maybe because of what you were willing to 'close your eyes' to...or something.
Maybe, OM, you were as much of a victim as anybody else...
But you just can't admit it to yourself...and especially not to anybody here...because then you would have to blame yourself...and be put under the same scrutiny, mockery, insinuations, etc. that you have put others through.
Chit happens in life, OM. Chit that is, a)out of one's control, b)out of one's understanding, c)beyond comprehension, d)cannot be 'proven' to everybody's satisfaction, and, e)scares the daylights out of us.
If such chit happens/has happened to you, it doesn't make you bad. It makes you human.
Can ya imagine joining the human race and not having to be 'perfectly perfected'? It really is too much for one person to bear. That's why it was borne for us.
I mean, I have no 'insider's' or 'behind-the-scenes' information about ya, OM.
Coolwaters, anytime you want to discuss a matter or ask me questions about my life, or just chat, I'll be happy to converse with you privately in a PM.
You see, OM, it is quite typical for a perpetrator to make the victims doubt if what happened really happened.
That may be true but that has nothing to do with me, or me stating my opinions on this forum.
Like lcm stating that his affairs were 'consensual sex'.
Yeah. Right. LCM got 'consent' only after threats, mental/emotional/spiritual torture, beguilement, ridicule, mockery, shame, and a myriad of other forms of intense coercion and manipulation.
Maybe, maybe not.
Women said no to Craig as well, so that could have been available in other instances as well. Depends on the facts. I also think some women could have wanted to have sex with him. Enjoyed it even.
The physical part of rape is all too often just the end result of a long, long time of 'preparing' the victim. (Which, btw, usually proves out to be the real 'turn on' in the rapist's mind...not the spurt at the end of it all.)
Rape happens not just to the body, but all too often it first happens to the mind and the soul.
How can one 'prove' that?
It just usually isn't believed regardless of any proof, anyway.
Depends on the facts in the situation.
And that's the story of the Way International: the rape of body, soul and spirit.
Statements such as these is why I have unbelief with some statements that are posted.
It is such a blanket one-size-fits-all accusation, about a whole group of people and their supposed experiences many of which you have no knowledge of, that it is unbelievable on its face.
Oldies,
My comment wasn't a cheap shot. It was a theory. But by the response, I think maybe it was a little too close to home for you, hmmm?
Your theory is based on no facts, just fiction. Why even surmise it?
Maybe we should wait and be quiet 'here' until Mr. Freud has had a chance to read & respond...
This sure will take up a significant portion of his time getting through all of this...
(reminds me of a Hugh family, where the children LOUDLY & physically ’discuss’ something, as the Dad patiently waits to speak...as he finally gets their attention, a few are still elbowing each other while looking at Dad )
Whoowee! Another topic blown to smithereens! Anyway Freud, maybe this group here has provided you with lots and lots of info for a paper entitled "Cult Aftermath Syndrome". Yowza! :blink:
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oldiesman
I fully agree Jonny.
I'm a little surprised the word is allowed to be used so freely here judging the proven good sense of the moderators.
Golly, even on Waydale there was more responsible use of that word.
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Tom Strange
You have a point... but saying that unless someone is convicted in a court of law then rape did not occur is a lot different than the point you are bringing up...
Here's one for you Jonny... the press and news media uses the term "alleged" because they do not want to be sued for slander or defamation of character IF THEY'RE WRONG...
"Why should we be less responsible than the news media?"
I don't think it's a question of "responsibility" (we're not the media)
Here's two thoughts for you to ponder:
1) Why hasn't LCM sued anyone for slander or defamation of character?
2) The folks who accuse him of it are not wrong so they do not fear the lawsuit
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
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CoolWaters
Belle...imo I think it pretty much is still on topic. I've not been real comfortable with this 'new insight' about lcm. I've felt all along that there's something not quite right with this thread.
Now...
But, dear Darlene Louise Thelma, me and you are having our first disagreement! Woo hoo! :)
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Nottawayfer
Oldies,
I think you need to walk in the shoes of some who have experienced the rape. Maybe you would be more compassionate. Maybe you would feel the pain of that kind of violation. That fact that it was done in the name of God makes is worse. The fact is that VPW isn't here to defend himself. If he were, he would probably lie about it. There are way too many who were sent away and called "possessed" after they reacted to his actions (rape).
LCM will never come forward to admit he raped. He did not have consentual sexual affairs. A person in a position of a minister has a HUGE responsibility, and they both failed miserably with their responsibilities. They used their power to do harm. That is WRONG!!!
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Belle
I disagree and think it's the same dam n tangent he pulls when the credibility of their teachings doesn't work to derail a thread. He's the Mike of this topic.
Some folks know that OM has a vested interest in protecting the rapists and those who helped procure the victims for them to rape....but we can't go there without getting into big trouble.
But, go ahead - y'all have at it......
And.....that's a noogie 'cause I still love you - I just disagree ;)
Be glad there's no wedgie icon.
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CoolWaters
OK...you've made a great point. I'll behave and go over to the new thread.
(Or maybe I'll just go make a wedgie smilie...)
Still love you, too!
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oldiesman
Love you too Belle
And Coolwaters
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J0nny Ling0
FACT: HE HAS TOTALLY DERAILED THIS THREAD - CAN WE START A NEW ONE SO THIS ONE CAN STAY ON TOPIC???????????????
I don't think Oldies derailed it. He just gave his point of view to Freud. People freely told Freud of the alleged rapes, but that was not a de-rail. Oldies simply stated that there were no proven rapes, which is his opinion, which has now been jumped upon with indignation which is the actual de-rail if there actually was a de-rail.
And Tom, point well taken. I'm sure the news media will say anything it can get away with, and would drop the words "allege" and "allegation" if they could. But, on the other hand, considering the statement; "A man is considered innocent until proven guilty", something Americans believe to be right and just, I think that there is some merit to what Oldies is saying. And even if the news media uses the word allege to protect themselves from lawsuits, I still believe that it is the responsible thing to do. Kobe Bryant was accused of rape. It was referred to as an alleged rape in the news. It turns out that "he did have sex with that woman", but that he did not rape her. "Just" committed adultry.
And now I'll post this. But this fight is moving so quickly that I may now be ten posts behind! Whew!
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justloafing
Okay here we go. Here are some more readings that our new poster might like and maybe to refresh your memories. I go reread these from time to time.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/dr...-to-suicide.htm
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/editorial/eternal-fix.htm
and you need PDF Reader for these. http://www.greasespotcafe.com/waydale/pdf-docs/pdf.html
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Tom Strange
Lingo, what do you think of the two thoughts I posted?
1) Why hasn't LCM sued anyone for slander or defamation of character?
2) The folks who accuse him of it are not wrong so they do not fear the lawsuit
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oldiesman
Thanks Jonny.
Your fairness and logic is exemplary.
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J0nny Ling0
Maybe because Craig knows that he abused his power, hurt people in so many other ways that he just wants to walk away from it all. Maybe Freud here has actually met a broken man who broke himself and just wants to walk away instead of firing up a legal battle. The adultry lawsuit was already a defeat for him, so why would he want to keep stirring it up?
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J0nny Ling0
The folks accuse him may not be wrong and fear no law suit. But I do not know that they are right. I only know what they are alleging, and won't accuse someone of rape if I do not know that they did it.
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Tom Strange
And the other possibility Jonny?
(to number one)
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justloafing
This is what got my attention. It simply is not true.
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Tom Strange
I don't know that anyone would ever expect YOU to accuse him. I think the point (as I see it) is that "I wouldn't accuse him since I wasn't there, but I wouldn't pass a blanket accusation of 'LIAR' on everyone who did and say things like 'rape didn't occur unless it's proven in a court of law'..."
C'mon Jonny... of course that's a possibility BUT... if YOU were the one being accused would you just "let it go"...? I don't think I would or could...
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karmicdebt
I'd like to add two points. One, a conviction does not guarantee guilt. It is a mutual decision and sadly, by the # overturned lately, the wrong one.
Two, by the constant argument Oldies has I can only assume he must have heard a gal say, "don't and stop," but got her to "give in" by pressure and persistance on more than one occassion. Yes, it's date rape and I know a lot of you ex-wayfer "men of God" are guilty as hell of that and maybe it is easier for Oldies to say, "where is the proof?" rather than, "I'm sorry".
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oldiesman
Will these cheap shots never cease?
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CoolWaters
I know I'm lost in this whole discussion.
I mean, I have no 'insider's' or 'behind-the-scenes' information about ya, OM. I harbor no ill will towards you. I post what I post to you out of concern...because I don't think you honestly know how you're coming across...or how your reasoning (as posted out here in the open-to-all threads) often follows the same reasoning perpetrators use to discredit their victims...so there will be no trial...or, if there is, nothing will come of such a trial...because the 'reasonable doubt' was placed by the perpetrator into the minds of the victims themselves...so why wouldn't those who were not actual victims have 'reasonable doubt'?
You see, OM, it is quite typical for a perpetrator to make the victims doubt if what happened really happened.
Like lcm stating that his affairs were 'consensual sex'.
Yeah. Right. LCM got 'consent' only after threats, mental/emotional/spiritual torture, beguilement, ridicule, mockery, shame, and a myriad of other forms of intense coercion and manipulation.
And vpw drugged many of his victims to get 'consent'.
I understand a need in many to have things 'proven' to them. Heck, if I'd been so inclined, I'd never have been involved with twi in the first place.
But rape is a thing that goes beyond simple facts.
The physical part of rape is all too often just the end result of a long, long time of 'preparing' the victim. (Which, btw, usually proves out to be the real 'turn on' in the rapist's mind...not the spurt at the end of it all.)
Rape happens not just to the body, but all too often it first happens to the mind and the soul.
How can one 'prove' that?
It just usually isn't believed regardless of any proof, anyway.
And that's the story of the Way International: the rape of body, soul and spirit.
That you never felt raped is lucky, OM.
Or, what I'm beginning to wonder, is maybe because of what you were willing to 'close your eyes' to...or something.
Maybe, OM, you were as much of a victim as anybody else...
But you just can't admit it to yourself...and especially not to anybody here...because then you would have to blame yourself...and be put under the same scrutiny, mockery, insinuations, etc. that you have put others through.
Chit happens in life, OM. Chit that is, a)out of one's control, b)out of one's understanding, c)beyond comprehension, d)cannot be 'proven' to everybody's satisfaction, and, e)scares the daylights out of us.
If such chit happens/has happened to you, it doesn't make you bad. It makes you human.
Can ya imagine joining the human race and not having to be 'perfectly perfected'? It really is too much for one person to bear. That's why it was borne for us.
Ya know?
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karmicdebt
Oldies,
My comment wasn't a cheap shot. It was a theory. But by the response, I think maybe it was a little too close to home for you, hmmm?
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oldiesman
Coolwaters, anytime you want to discuss a matter or ask me questions about my life, or just chat, I'll be happy to converse with you privately in a PM.
That may be true but that has nothing to do with me, or me stating my opinions on this forum.
Maybe, maybe not.
Women said no to Craig as well, so that could have been available in other instances as well. Depends on the facts. I also think some women could have wanted to have sex with him. Enjoyed it even.
Depends on the facts in the situation.
Statements such as these is why I have unbelief with some statements that are posted.
It is such a blanket one-size-fits-all accusation, about a whole group of people and their supposed experiences many of which you have no knowledge of, that it is unbelievable on its face.
Your theory is based on no facts, just fiction. Why even surmise it?Link to comment
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karmicdebt
Because I too said, "No, and don't and stop."
Sorry, it's not fiction.
No means no, no means no, no means no....
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SafariVista
Maybe we should wait and be quiet 'here' until Mr. Freud has had a chance to read & respond...
This sure will take up a significant portion of his time getting through all of this...
(reminds me of a Hugh family, where the children LOUDLY & physically ’discuss’ something, as the Dad patiently waits to speak...as he finally gets their attention, a few are still elbowing each other while looking at Dad
)
:blink: just my opinion...
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J0nny Ling0
Whoowee! Another topic blown to smithereens! Anyway Freud, maybe this group here has provided you with lots and lots of info for a paper entitled "Cult Aftermath Syndrome". Yowza! :blink:
Jonny Lingo
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