I think the Cross was an Icon we were to stay away from so we could LEAP into the more Abundant Life..I didnt grow up in a church enviroment so I didnt see the cost. I toook it as a path and a fast one to boot on how to love and serve . Sure I spent time thinking of this but it was not quality time in the sence of doing a word study on specfic things. THe bible is very specific and clear on the Ressurection. In all actuality before leaving THe Way, I started to feel the pressures of Leadership and the directio it was taking people too......many many wore the Cross on thier backs as a sacifice to living in thier standards.....It was emotionaly compeling to find out how much love and grace was on my life when I left. Grace was absent in the Way teachings..it was very harmful.
I have been thinking the last several days about what Jesus really went through to make available our forgiveness, redemption etc. When I was involved with twi, it was taboo to have anything with a cross on it (necklace, bible cover, whatever.) The reason given was that people focused too much on Jesus' death and not his resurrection. The point was also made about wearing a electric chair around your neck if Jesus had been killed that way.
I am thinking that eliminating the presence of the cross (tree if some of you prefer) made it easier for us to not think about what he really went through. We maybe were reminded once a year. That would make it easier for us not to think about our sins and shortcomings if we conviently forgot about what our forgiveness really cost. That would make it easier for us to not be as concerned about our behavior, actions, lack of actually helping others, forgiving each other--whatever--if we didnt remember how Jesus gave himself for us. I have realized that remembering what he did helps to motivate me to change and actually follow him better.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
He is risen!!!!
Wow, Penguin - you have hit the nail on the head for me!!!!!!!!!!! TWI usually emphasized the epistles addressed to us [their hyper-dispensationalism]. After I left TWI I got back into reading the entire Bible - one of my favorite books now is the Gospel of John...I found - just like you did - the more I look at his life and what he did for me - the more I find myself motivated to follow him. Thanks again, Penguin for a great post!!!!!!!
I thought a lot about this when I left. In fact, I bought a cross as soon as my ex moved out because I saw, from attending church, where Christians really do use it as a reminder of what was done for them...the ultimate sacrifice....it's so much deeper to them than TWI taught because they actually have a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior - he's not a means to an end for them...he really is a brother, a savior, a confidant and so much more.
I got out my WAP syllabus to see some stuff on fear for AmazingGrace in the dungeon and was just looking through it....
the first segment is about "getting to a standard of truth" - the Bible
Segment 2 - Trusting God by trusting the Bible
Segment 3 - The stability of our times - the Bible
Segment 4 - The subject of the word of God - Jesus, but how you have to see him in your study and veneration of The Bible - and how Jesus did the same thing
Segment 5 - Keys to interpreting the Bible -
Segment 6 - In the beginning and how God's word is as much God as God is God - not written for the unbeliever - yep - the focus - the Bible
Segment 7 - The face of the deep - just more Bible
Segment 8 - God prepares the earth - "bringing our thinking up to the level of the" Bible
Segment 9 - Formed, made created - learning proper interpretation of the Bible
Segment 10 - Knowledge of good and evil - learning from the Bible
Segment 11 - The first sin of mankind - extreme perversion of the Bible
Segment 12 - The greatest principle in all of life: Believing....based on the Bible
Segment 13 - Believing; the endurance of Job as seen in the Bible
Segment 14 - Spiritual integrity - living according to the Bible
Segment 15 - True endurance - Job's endurance learned in the Bible
Segment 16 - Adminstrations in the Bible
Segment 17 - Grace administration in the Bible
Segment 18 - Musterion - the mystery of speaking in tongues and holy spirit in the Bible
Segment 19 - Born again of God's spirit from the Bible - Jesus is mentioned merely as the means to the end of getting born again so you can have that holy spirit power
Segment 20 - Building up the spirit - speaking in tongues as taught in the Bible
Segment 21 - The compeition - "emotions come and go"...your focus should be on the Bible
Segment 22 - Your sonship rights as documented in the Bible - your power, you - you - you
Segment 23 - Valiant for the truth - standing on the Bible in the household of God
Segment 24 - Walking in fellowship - never leaving the household of God cause it says in the Bible bad things will happen if you don't
Hmmmm......I don't see much about Jesus or God in this FOUNDATIONAL class... <_<
I've always thought that the whole human sacrifice aspect of Christianity was just a bit over the top, don't you think?
I mean, who decided that sacrificing His only begotten son would be a good idea? Seems like a pretty hard-hearted way of setting things up.
And another thing, just how does this perfect guy getting killed (for a few hours, anyway) do anything to mitigate the severity of MY sins? If I murdered some unbeliever down the street, then become a Christian, how does Christ's dying do anything to mitigate the fact that my neighbor's DEAD? Yet, he paid for my sins?
Sorry, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Never did really (though I never let on before).
And doesn't the fact that he was going to get raised from the dead in just a few days (and he KNEW it) sorta lessen the magnamity of he sacrifice just a teeny bit? I mean, really, doesn't it amount to - rather than Jesus dying for your sins - that he had a really lousy weekend for your sins?
Un uh, O.K. I won't do anymore to spoil the party...
I've always thought that the whole human sacrifice aspect of Christianity was just a bit over the top, don't you think?
I mean, who decided that sacrificing His only begotten son would be a good idea? Seems like a pretty hard-hearted way of setting things up.
And another thing, just how does this perfect guy getting killed (for a few hours, anyway) do anything to mitigate the severity of MY sins? If I murdered some unbeliever down the street, then become a Christian, how does Christ's dying do anything to mitigate the fact that my neighbor's DEAD? Yet, he paid for my sins?
Sorry, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Never did really (though I never let on before).
And doesn't the fact that he was going to get raised from the dead in just a few days (and he KNEW it) sorta lessen the magnamity of he sacrifice just a teeny bit? I mean, really, doesn't it amount to - rather than Jesus dying for your sins - that he had a really lousy weekend for your sins?
Un uh, O.K. I won't do anymore to spoil the party...
George,
I understand how you think even though I disagree with it. What do you think would be more believable if you were to believe? I'm just wondering.
Haven't really thought that much about the Cross as a physical object. My Mom gave us one w/ Jesus on it for the house ... I did put it up for a little while, although the kids remembered all the ranting about the cross from TWI and felt strange about it.
It's another one of those topics I have a 'strong opinion' about for no real reason, thanks to TWI.
Seems to be man's opinion, since Jesus said that we are to remember what had happened to him.
I do remember Ol Loy screaming that people were dying because they were wearing angle pins, and the same could happen to any of us if we wore those charms that carried devil spirits, including the cross... (Ol Loy had a newspaper article about someone who died and they were wearing a charm)
My husband's family is Catholic. He stopped going to the Catholic church when he was in junior high. We have a crucifix in our house. It's in a place where I dont even think about it most times because it's on a wall next to a door. That door is open most of the time, so it hides the crucifix. If I were to actually display something like that for decoration and remembrance, I think it would be just a cross as opposed to a crucifix. I don't think crucifixes have devil spirits behind them, nor do crosses or angel pins.
The cross- it's about rememberance......... I have a beautiful one made from Polish potery. It is slowly making it's entrance, from closed door, to china cabinet, to hopefully the wall................
IMO, the Way International can't bear to look at the Cross of Christ because the Way International crucifies Christ over and over and over again.
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. Hebrews 6:4-8 (NIV)
Of course, for me the jury is still out about whether the Way International was ever enlightened, ever shared in the Holy Spirit or ever tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age...
Re:"What do you think would be more believable if you were to believe? I'm just wondering."
Well, this is strictly for conversation sake, as the odds of me turning to the "believer" camp are pretty slim at this point, but,
I guess a religion where your actions had more to do with your redemption than just what thoughts you may hold in your head. The issue I was raising earlier was that, though a Christian's guilt may be erased by the cross of Christ, the consequences of his sins are not. That just doesn't make any sense to me. One can kill, rape, murder, plunder, but become a Christian and you can escape all blame. Your victims are still dead, raped and savaged, but you're held blameless! Isn't that just special?
Yeah, I do view it with a very jaundiced eye. The inconsitencies, the vagueries, the holes in the logic, it just doesn't seem to be a very well thought-out philosophy...
I agree, using "WAY Theology" to answer these questions, definately doesn't make sense.
The true bible never says "you escape blame". It says every idle word will be judged. I believe justice
comes from God just like He says it will. He knows a mans heart. I don't worry about what ''other Joes "
confess and believe. Most of them are running to Christianity out of guilt, not TRUE REPENTANCE. Which
we NEVER truly learned in TWI. It's not a mere "sorry, I did that ". It is a deep recognition, and a CHANGE from the inside. Most people say sorry because, they get caught....not because they abhor their behavior.
Therefore, their murders, rapes etc........ aren't really forgiven.
Besides, all sin has consequences. Who told you otherwise?
If they are truly sorry, then it's God's job to deal with them appropriatly.
It's called Grace and Mercy. Something we DON"T deserve. But He did it for us anyway, for LOVE.
We are ALL sinners. EVERY DAY. Your words can be used to hurt just like killing someone. SIN is SIN.
I choose to do my own business, and not worry about Tom, Dick and Harry and what they are/are not doing to get to heaven.
I choose to repent every day, and develop the relationship I had been missing for so long.
Whether you want it or not George, I will pray for your eyes to be enlightened again.............
I wore a nice cross necklace when i took the pfal class.
I was told it is a murder weapon around my neck.
I was told the croos is the tool Used to kill Jesus Christ so it is bad bad bad.
ok I was involved in a cult and not a deep thinker forgive me.
I still believe it is a murder weapon ..........
But that I need to be reminded of that very fact.
He was killed , no it was not his choice , did He know He would be raised?
Well the word Faith comes to mind here I can think God promises a certain thing and low and behold surprise at the Unpredictabily of God as pipes thread talks about!!!
Jesus had to believe He was who God said He was... Jesus was a man .. think about what He had to think about .
Could you do it? Satan told HIM otherwise and the story being played out was one of faith in a God beyond the ability of ANY other man .
the cross is a weapon used to murder men ... how we think about that fact is just where our faith is at.
For me it reminds me of the fact a man was put to death because I am a sinner in Gods sight.. and He (jesus Christ) loved all of us enough to do something about it for today and all of everlasting.
it isnt a bad thing to me (the cross) because I am thankful for what it means.
I will never hang on it , I will live forever .. because of that cross.
Re:"What do you think would be more believable if you were to believe? I'm just wondering."
Well, this is strictly for conversation sake, as the odds of me turning to the "believer" camp are pretty slim at this point, but,
I guess a religion where your actions had more to do with your redemption than just what thoughts you may hold in your head. The issue I was raising earlier was that, though a Christian's guilt may be erased by the cross of Christ, the consequences of his sins are not. That just doesn't make any sense to me. One can kill, rape, murder, plunder, but become a Christian and you can escape all blame. Your victims are still dead, raped and savaged, but you're held blameless! Isn't that just special?
Yeah, I do view it with a very jaundiced eye. The inconsitencies, the vagueries, the holes in the logic, it just doesn't seem to be a very well thought-out philosophy...
George,
I really had to chew on what you said. I hope I understand you correctly. Are you saying that if someone is a Christian and does one of the big evils (i.e., murder, rape, etc.) that they escape consequences because Jesus died on the cross for them? I'm just thinking that people do stuff they regret. I personally don't understand why people murder or rape, but it is a reality that we deal with. I know you know that. Anyway, I don't think people escape consquences totally even if they are forgiven. I think that if they are truly remorseful for their action, they live with the guilt unless they are a heartless person. Guilt can't bring back what that person took away, but I think that's beauty of a Savior. There's forgiveness from God. There may not be forgiveness from society and that person may die. That is a reality for a murderer or rapist in this world. In a perfect world, they never would have done the evil in the first place. I do believe that world will exist in the future.
Darn, this is complicated. I need to think some more.
Penquin, Alleluia! Christ is Risen! The Lord is risen indeed, Alleluia! A blessed Easter! The peace of the ressurrected Messiah be with you always! Thomas
I have been thinking the last several days about what Jesus really went through to make available our forgiveness, redemption etc. When I was involved with twi, it was taboo to have anything with a cross on it (necklace, bible cover, whatever.) The reason given was that people focused too much on Jesus' death and not his resurrection. The point was also made about wearing a electric chair around your neck if Jesus had been killed that way.
I am thinking that eliminating the presence of the cross (tree if some of you prefer) made it easier for us to not think about what he really went through. We maybe were reminded once a year. That would make it easier for us not to think about our sins and shortcomings if we conviently forgot about what our forgiveness really cost. That would make it easier for us to not be as concerned about our behavior, actions, lack of actually helping others, forgiving each other--whatever--if we didnt remember how Jesus gave himself for us. I have realized that remembering what he did helps to motivate me to change and actually follow him better.
Anyone else have any thoughts on this?
He is risen!!!!
That, in my humble (well maybe not...) opinion, is the fundamental disconnect between TWI and orthodox (small "o") Christianity.
Thinking about earlier posts, I think the cross is extremely important and that TWI negated it and never saw the greatness of it. I'll give some background, but here's why I think so.
I think sin is simply separation from God. All of mankind was separated from God when Adam willingly gave up his dominion, rulership, and position as the mediator between God and man. Adam and mankind became separated from God.
I think people often think of "bad" things as stealing, murder, lying, etc. as sin, yet, that is not the sin I believe God speaks of. The bad actions men do is a natural result of sin, which is, separation from God in one's heart. When one is separated from God in his heart, he cannot enter into God's heart, try as he may. His will is not in harmony with God's will, nor can it be. Mankind, each individual with their own free will, and with over a billion free wills in the world today, will never bring peace, agreement with each other, etc.
Free will is also a gift from God. Each individual gets to choose - shall I allow God in my heart, or no? Shall I spend eternity - either in the presence of God, or without God? Our short sojourn on earth is a stepping stone on the way to our destination, and our greatest, most important thing we will ever do, is to make this decision. God in his love gave us free will - where do we want to go?
Many people hate, rage, and curse God in their hearts. God, as love cannot control or posses men, thus, as a God of love, he must give all men the true desire of their hearts and free will - and some choose a life apart from God. It is each man's decision. To choose to live here on earth, without God, and in eternity, in an eternal place where God is not - to live for an eternity a kind of copy, or facsimile of true life, a place where something is terribly wrong and twisted - a counterfiet of life with the absence of love, light, or to have God in your heart now and to enter into him for eternity - the choice is up to each man.
No human being can ever be "holy" enough to enter into God. God is total perfection, perfect holiness, with absolutely no corruption in him, and beyond our comprehension. Corruption cannot live with God. That is why it is such grace, that we, through what Christ did on the cross, can enter into his presence, now, and in eternity.
As the children of Israel who had the blood of the sacrificial lamb on their doors were spared the angel of death in Egypt, so, Christ's blood spares us from the wrath to come - which is the cleansing of the world of sin (separation)and corruption, and a restoration back to the perfect harmony in which the earth and mankind were originally created.
To pay the price and regain mankind's ability to enter into God and commune with him, to bring him back to God, a payment had to be made. Mankind had to be "bought back" from him to whom dominion was given by Adam.
The cross is very important because Deuteronomy and other places say, cursed in anyone who hangs on a cross. Why the cross, and why is that particular form of death a curse, and causes one to become cursed - I don't know, but God says anyone who hangs on a cross is cursed. Christ had to become sin, and take upon him God's full wrath, that deserved to be applied to mankind. Christ had to hang on a cross to show to Israel, and the world, he was truly "cursed." The perfect sacrifice on the cross.
Any other way of being put to death would not have fulfilled the prophecies and requirement of God. Thus, I think the cross is very important - there is a reason he was hung on a cross.
Someone, I can't remember who, is a freelance writer. She wrote a piece about finding a cross at her mother's house. It was a short piece, but it brought me to tears, it was so tender and sweet and moving.
I believe it was in the early WayDale days and I *may* have saved it, but I have lots of CD's from the WayDale days
It would seem appropriate to post here. Does anyone know who I'm talking about or remember that piece?
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likeaneagle
Pond-
Ive been relfecting on this since i Left in 2000.
I think the Cross was an Icon we were to stay away from so we could LEAP into the more Abundant Life..I didnt grow up in a church enviroment so I didnt see the cost. I toook it as a path and a fast one to boot on how to love and serve . Sure I spent time thinking of this but it was not quality time in the sence of doing a word study on specfic things. THe bible is very specific and clear on the Ressurection. In all actuality before leaving THe Way, I started to feel the pressures of Leadership and the directio it was taking people too......many many wore the Cross on thier backs as a sacifice to living in thier standards.....It was emotionaly compeling to find out how much love and grace was on my life when I left. Grace was absent in the Way teachings..it was very harmful.
alot to chew on.
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T-Bone
Wow, Penguin - you have hit the nail on the head for me!!!!!!!!!!! TWI usually emphasized the epistles addressed to us [their hyper-dispensationalism]. After I left TWI I got back into reading the entire Bible - one of my favorite books now is the Gospel of John...I found - just like you did - the more I look at his life and what he did for me - the more I find myself motivated to follow him. Thanks again, Penguin for a great post!!!!!!!
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Belle
Penguin,
I thought a lot about this when I left. In fact, I bought a cross as soon as my ex moved out because I saw, from attending church, where Christians really do use it as a reminder of what was done for them...the ultimate sacrifice....it's so much deeper to them than TWI taught because they actually have a personal relationship with their Lord and Savior - he's not a means to an end for them...he really is a brother, a savior, a confidant and so much more.
I got out my WAP syllabus to see some stuff on fear for AmazingGrace in the dungeon and was just looking through it....
the first segment is about "getting to a standard of truth" - the Bible
Segment 2 - Trusting God by trusting the Bible
Segment 3 - The stability of our times - the Bible
Segment 4 - The subject of the word of God - Jesus, but how you have to see him in your study and veneration of The Bible - and how Jesus did the same thing
Segment 5 - Keys to interpreting the Bible -
Segment 6 - In the beginning and how God's word is as much God as God is God - not written for the unbeliever - yep - the focus - the Bible
Segment 7 - The face of the deep - just more Bible
Segment 8 - God prepares the earth - "bringing our thinking up to the level of the" Bible
Segment 9 - Formed, made created - learning proper interpretation of the Bible
Segment 10 - Knowledge of good and evil - learning from the Bible
Segment 11 - The first sin of mankind - extreme perversion of the Bible
Segment 12 - The greatest principle in all of life: Believing....based on the Bible
Segment 13 - Believing; the endurance of Job as seen in the Bible
Segment 14 - Spiritual integrity - living according to the Bible
Segment 15 - True endurance - Job's endurance learned in the Bible
Segment 16 - Adminstrations in the Bible
Segment 17 - Grace administration in the Bible
Segment 18 - Musterion - the mystery of speaking in tongues and holy spirit in the Bible
Segment 19 - Born again of God's spirit from the Bible - Jesus is mentioned merely as the means to the end of getting born again so you can have that holy spirit power
Segment 20 - Building up the spirit - speaking in tongues as taught in the Bible
Segment 21 - The compeition - "emotions come and go"...your focus should be on the Bible
Segment 22 - Your sonship rights as documented in the Bible - your power, you - you - you
Segment 23 - Valiant for the truth - standing on the Bible in the household of God
Segment 24 - Walking in fellowship - never leaving the household of God cause it says in the Bible bad things will happen if you don't
Hmmmm......I don't see much about Jesus or God in this FOUNDATIONAL class... <_<
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George Aar
I've always thought that the whole human sacrifice aspect of Christianity was just a bit over the top, don't you think?
I mean, who decided that sacrificing His only begotten son would be a good idea? Seems like a pretty hard-hearted way of setting things up.
And another thing, just how does this perfect guy getting killed (for a few hours, anyway) do anything to mitigate the severity of MY sins? If I murdered some unbeliever down the street, then become a Christian, how does Christ's dying do anything to mitigate the fact that my neighbor's DEAD? Yet, he paid for my sins?
Sorry, it just doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Never did really (though I never let on before).
And doesn't the fact that he was going to get raised from the dead in just a few days (and he KNEW it) sorta lessen the magnamity of he sacrifice just a teeny bit? I mean, really, doesn't it amount to - rather than Jesus dying for your sins - that he had a really lousy weekend for your sins?
Un uh, O.K. I won't do anymore to spoil the party...
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likeaneagle
"Kept by God" was and is a awesome little pamphlet put out years ago..
Still is my favorite..I have it packed otherwise I would be reading it today..
Its good to quiet down and re-examine things..they can be easily forgotten..
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Nottawayfer
George,
I understand how you think even though I disagree with it. What do you think would be more believable if you were to believe? I'm just wondering.
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SafariVista
Good points on the Cross Penguin & LAEagle... :)
Haven't really thought that much about the Cross as a physical object. My Mom gave us one w/ Jesus on it for the house ... I did put it up for a little while, although the kids remembered all the ranting about the cross from TWI and felt strange about it.
It's another one of those topics I have a 'strong opinion' about for no real reason, thanks to TWI.
Seems to be man's opinion, since Jesus said that we are to remember what had happened to him.
I do remember Ol Loy screaming that people were dying because they were wearing angle pins, and the same could happen to any of us if we wore those charms that carried devil spirits, including the cross... (Ol Loy had a newspaper article about someone who died and they were wearing a charm)
Stupidity... But I'm free now to un-learn it~
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sirguessalot
imo, the primary thing he taught us that the only way out of suffering is through it
to say that we each have a cross to bear
is to say that we are each at an intersection...now
where we are on this side of suffering
and our freedom is on that side of it
no one asks for suffering
and no one is free of it
so it truly is a universal lesson
and a baptism of fire and blood
that fact that he dared to stand up and teach such a horrifying thing in such an unforgettable way
provided the seeds of possibility for such a radical change of heart to take place in the entire world
we are renewed and resurrected to the depth and degree we endure this mode of transformation
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Nottawayfer
My husband's family is Catholic. He stopped going to the Catholic church when he was in junior high. We have a crucifix in our house. It's in a place where I dont even think about it most times because it's on a wall next to a door. That door is open most of the time, so it hides the crucifix. If I were to actually display something like that for decoration and remembrance, I think it would be just a cross as opposed to a crucifix. I don't think crucifixes have devil spirits behind them, nor do crosses or angel pins.
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bliss
The cross- it's about rememberance......... I have a beautiful one made from Polish potery. It is slowly making it's entrance, from closed door, to china cabinet, to hopefully the wall................
He is Risen INDEED!!!!
Let us not forget.
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CoolWaters
IMO, the Way International can't bear to look at the Cross of Christ because the Way International crucifies Christ over and over and over again.
Of course, for me the jury is still out about whether the Way International was ever enlightened, ever shared in the Holy Spirit or ever tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age...
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George Aar
Wayfer not.
Re:"What do you think would be more believable if you were to believe? I'm just wondering."
Well, this is strictly for conversation sake, as the odds of me turning to the "believer" camp are pretty slim at this point, but,
I guess a religion where your actions had more to do with your redemption than just what thoughts you may hold in your head. The issue I was raising earlier was that, though a Christian's guilt may be erased by the cross of Christ, the consequences of his sins are not. That just doesn't make any sense to me. One can kill, rape, murder, plunder, but become a Christian and you can escape all blame. Your victims are still dead, raped and savaged, but you're held blameless! Isn't that just special?
Yeah, I do view it with a very jaundiced eye. The inconsitencies, the vagueries, the holes in the logic, it just doesn't seem to be a very well thought-out philosophy...
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bliss
George,
I agree, using "WAY Theology" to answer these questions, definately doesn't make sense.
The true bible never says "you escape blame". It says every idle word will be judged. I believe justice
comes from God just like He says it will. He knows a mans heart. I don't worry about what ''other Joes "
confess and believe. Most of them are running to Christianity out of guilt, not TRUE REPENTANCE. Which
we NEVER truly learned in TWI. It's not a mere "sorry, I did that ". It is a deep recognition, and a CHANGE from the inside. Most people say sorry because, they get caught....not because they abhor their behavior.
Therefore, their murders, rapes etc........ aren't really forgiven.
Besides, all sin has consequences. Who told you otherwise?
If they are truly sorry, then it's God's job to deal with them appropriatly.
It's called Grace and Mercy. Something we DON"T deserve. But He did it for us anyway, for LOVE.
We are ALL sinners. EVERY DAY. Your words can be used to hurt just like killing someone. SIN is SIN.
I choose to do my own business, and not worry about Tom, Dick and Harry and what they are/are not doing to get to heaven.
I choose to repent every day, and develop the relationship I had been missing for so long.
Whether you want it or not George, I will pray for your eyes to be enlightened again.............
peace,
bliss
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oldiesman
I believe it is a matter of individual decision and contemplation.
Not having had a wooden or silver cross around, didn't mean (or doesn't now mean) I disrespect or belittle the cross Christ bore.
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pond
I wore a nice cross necklace when i took the pfal class.
I was told it is a murder weapon around my neck.
I was told the croos is the tool Used to kill Jesus Christ so it is bad bad bad.
ok I was involved in a cult and not a deep thinker forgive me.
I still believe it is a murder weapon ..........
But that I need to be reminded of that very fact.
He was killed , no it was not his choice , did He know He would be raised?
Well the word Faith comes to mind here I can think God promises a certain thing and low and behold surprise at the Unpredictabily of God as pipes thread talks about!!!
Jesus had to believe He was who God said He was... Jesus was a man .. think about what He had to think about .
Could you do it? Satan told HIM otherwise and the story being played out was one of faith in a God beyond the ability of ANY other man .
the cross is a weapon used to murder men ... how we think about that fact is just where our faith is at.
For me it reminds me of the fact a man was put to death because I am a sinner in Gods sight.. and He (jesus Christ) loved all of us enough to do something about it for today and all of everlasting.
it isnt a bad thing to me (the cross) because I am thankful for what it means.
I will never hang on it , I will live forever .. because of that cross.
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Nottawayfer
George,
I really had to chew on what you said. I hope I understand you correctly. Are you saying that if someone is a Christian and does one of the big evils (i.e., murder, rape, etc.) that they escape consequences because Jesus died on the cross for them? I'm just thinking that people do stuff they regret. I personally don't understand why people murder or rape, but it is a reality that we deal with. I know you know that. Anyway, I don't think people escape consquences totally even if they are forgiven. I think that if they are truly remorseful for their action, they live with the guilt unless they are a heartless person. Guilt can't bring back what that person took away, but I think that's beauty of a Savior. There's forgiveness from God. There may not be forgiveness from society and that person may die. That is a reality for a murderer or rapist in this world. In a perfect world, they never would have done the evil in the first place. I do believe that world will exist in the future.
Darn, this is complicated. I need to think some more.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Penquin, Alleluia! Christ is Risen! The Lord is risen indeed, Alleluia! A blessed Easter! The peace of the ressurrected Messiah be with you always! Thomas
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markomalley
That, in my humble (well maybe not...) opinion, is the fundamental disconnect between TWI and orthodox (small "o") Christianity.
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Sunesis
Thinking about earlier posts, I think the cross is extremely important and that TWI negated it and never saw the greatness of it. I'll give some background, but here's why I think so.
I think sin is simply separation from God. All of mankind was separated from God when Adam willingly gave up his dominion, rulership, and position as the mediator between God and man. Adam and mankind became separated from God.
I think people often think of "bad" things as stealing, murder, lying, etc. as sin, yet, that is not the sin I believe God speaks of. The bad actions men do is a natural result of sin, which is, separation from God in one's heart. When one is separated from God in his heart, he cannot enter into God's heart, try as he may. His will is not in harmony with God's will, nor can it be. Mankind, each individual with their own free will, and with over a billion free wills in the world today, will never bring peace, agreement with each other, etc.
Free will is also a gift from God. Each individual gets to choose - shall I allow God in my heart, or no? Shall I spend eternity - either in the presence of God, or without God? Our short sojourn on earth is a stepping stone on the way to our destination, and our greatest, most important thing we will ever do, is to make this decision. God in his love gave us free will - where do we want to go?
Many people hate, rage, and curse God in their hearts. God, as love cannot control or posses men, thus, as a God of love, he must give all men the true desire of their hearts and free will - and some choose a life apart from God. It is each man's decision. To choose to live here on earth, without God, and in eternity, in an eternal place where God is not - to live for an eternity a kind of copy, or facsimile of true life, a place where something is terribly wrong and twisted - a counterfiet of life with the absence of love, light, or to have God in your heart now and to enter into him for eternity - the choice is up to each man.
No human being can ever be "holy" enough to enter into God. God is total perfection, perfect holiness, with absolutely no corruption in him, and beyond our comprehension. Corruption cannot live with God. That is why it is such grace, that we, through what Christ did on the cross, can enter into his presence, now, and in eternity.
As the children of Israel who had the blood of the sacrificial lamb on their doors were spared the angel of death in Egypt, so, Christ's blood spares us from the wrath to come - which is the cleansing of the world of sin (separation)and corruption, and a restoration back to the perfect harmony in which the earth and mankind were originally created.
To pay the price and regain mankind's ability to enter into God and commune with him, to bring him back to God, a payment had to be made. Mankind had to be "bought back" from him to whom dominion was given by Adam.
The cross is very important because Deuteronomy and other places say, cursed in anyone who hangs on a cross. Why the cross, and why is that particular form of death a curse, and causes one to become cursed - I don't know, but God says anyone who hangs on a cross is cursed. Christ had to become sin, and take upon him God's full wrath, that deserved to be applied to mankind. Christ had to hang on a cross to show to Israel, and the world, he was truly "cursed." The perfect sacrifice on the cross.
Any other way of being put to death would not have fulfilled the prophecies and requirement of God. Thus, I think the cross is very important - there is a reason he was hung on a cross.
Just my 2 cents.
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Belle
Someone, I can't remember who, is a freelance writer. She wrote a piece about finding a cross at her mother's house. It was a short piece, but it brought me to tears, it was so tender and sweet and moving.
I believe it was in the early WayDale days and I *may* have saved it, but I have lots of CD's from the WayDale days
It would seem appropriate to post here. Does anyone know who I'm talking about or remember that piece?
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