Sounds like a good idea, except how could one be sure the other soldiers on the same side would be safe from the violent person?
I've heard it's very difficult to become a Marine. A person must finish High School, (GED not accepted), with good grades, and have good moral character.
When a person invades the rights of someone else with a violent act, then it's only fair for their 'rights' to VANISH in the same fashion...
Take a life, lose your life... sounds fair only if done quickly! That would save our tax money not having offenders sitting around in prison.
Rape once, lose your sex organ~ will prevent it from happening again~ money saved.
Of course it would take some guts for America to take a stand, and violent crime would decrease.
I think the real problem is that violent criminals are thought of as having rights at all. Once a dog kills, it’s lost it’s right to live in that nice comfy home, and is put to sleep. The owner doesn’t take the time to re-train the dog to be good. Although it's sad for the owner to 'get rid of' the dog, he knows it's what has to be done.
Nursing home says it is safe now, but still faces lawsuit
By Tim Carpenter
The Capital-Journal
The former Larned State Hospital patient relished his new freedom at a Topeka nursing home.
M.M., as he is identified in Shawnee County District Court records, took advantage of slackening scrutiny of his activities to stalk Indian Trails Mental Health Living Center's hallways for potential victims. He was no amateur. Nor were his aberrant interests a secret.
He had been convicted of sexually assaulting a 9-year-old boy in 1971. Documents from his file at the state psychiatric hospital obtained by The Topeka Capital-Journal make frequent reference to crude skills M.M. possessed to force himself upon men of subordinate mental capacity and inferior physical strength.
The record could have set off alarm bells at the nursing home full of frail men and women.
It did not.
The bell rang, however, for M.M., who was granted permission to depart the state hospital for the one-story nursing home at 1112 S.E. Republican that serves only adults with a diagnosed mental illness. Indian Trails' staff had opportunity to be cognizant of their new resident's sexual history. They could have started with their own files. M.M. had been placed at Indian Hills in 1990, but left after one week because of his threatening behavior. For this second stay at Indian Trails, doctors at Larned delivered a stack of reports summarizing the man's potential to cause harm and outlining ways to restrain his promiscuous impulses.
His new overseers at Indian Trails pledged to provide treatment and guidance to accomplish that feat.
Instead, M.M. was set free to mingle with the center's unsuspecting clientele. Past became prologue. M.M. lashed out. Again, again and again, according to state records.
"They knew about it. They didn't stop it," said Rocky Nichols, executive director of the Disability Rights Center of Kansas. "That is despicable, deplorable and inexcusable."
This article is followed with the article Oversight of homes questioned by the same reporter, which is one of many in the continuing report concerning the abuses perpetrated by a couple who ran another home for mentally disabled folks.
Be violent , get sent to war. why do they let them out?
It may sound like a good idea, but America is founded on the principle of "we the people", we are a democratic nation with freedoms and rights.
If our nation has a large amount of violent criminals it points to the issue of our nation to take care of our own issues. They are still American and they do still hold their rights and freedom while facing punishiment for a crime.
this is how our government is designed.
how politics work is a different story.
NY has the death penalty , we also have the three strikes your out , 3 felonies and you face life in prison.
How american is it to FORCE any american to go to war??
We do not at this time have a draft although i recognize it can be put in motion at any time .
The soliders that fight for our freedom every day are NOT MURDERS , THEY are not violent , they are God loving good men and women who want to be good citizens . They are the best americans we could ask for in our life.
they are our heros. In every sense of the word.
So put in a butch of insane drug crazed maniacs and ask them to follow orders , in a WAR????
War is a planned out well organized event it is not a shoot out all hell bar mass murder.
The Chief and his generals try to save life not kill our own people.
those in prison for being violent are iin there for a reason , they are anti social and unable to concede to everyday norms and are killers and the lowest scum of our country.
do you really think if you say now got to war and be a solider it will work?
yeah they will just listen and obey and do what needs to be done and take responsibility for the safety of one another.
it isnt going to happen they will kill one another off in a week. they will go a wall and be happy to live in another country , better than prison.
think Cool waters what your dealing with.. it would take more just to keep them under control than the war itself.
they would go to the enemy and make deals and be traitors. They are criminals hello.
do you really think americas finest citizens NEED them? In our very hour of need?
how very insulting to those who give up their life and family and SERVE our country.
think Cool waters what your dealing with.. it would take more just to keep them under control than the war itself.
pond...
You think about what is required before a person is sent to war. 'America's finest' weren't born that way and did not just show up at boot camp that way.
Be violent and get sent into the military? come on now!
What makes you think that the military would ever want someone who's mental discernment capabilities can not allow that person to keep out of fights?
To give someone a weapon, the military needs to know that said person is capable to holding the weapon and caring for it, without the using it. Without the need or compulsion to get into fights with his fellow squad members.
To say 'lets throw all homicidal maniacs into the army', the army can not use a person like that. The army would place that person into a federal prison, far away from weapons, and far away from the ability of killing his friends.
I do thank you for the implication that all military members are uncontrollable violent people. I served over 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I have seen crewmen get into fights, in 20 years I can think of two.
Let me tell you what happens. When someone finally 'cracks', and throws a punch. Whoever threw the punch gets separated, they are referred to counseling, and a formal written statement is put into their file. Two of these incidents and they will go before the Commanding Officer for NJP [either a fine, or imprisonment, or reduced-rations, or bread-and-water, or any combination of the above]. If someone throws a punch at you, and you respond then you are also guilty of fighting. One person can 'crack' and fight; and then that one person will be 'in trouble', if two people are seen fighting then both are in trouble. There is no excuse of "I was defending myself", either you were fighitng or you were not fighting.
I served 14 years on submarines, we did have firearms and we did arm our topside watchstanders; but before arming anyone we need to be well assured that each watchstander was in full control of themselves. we were also in control of many nuclear missiles [orbital platforms each capable of launching multiple warheads], as well as torpedos.
I also served 6 years doing Law Enforcement. I carried a loaded pistol, drove a MP car and responded to: traffic accidents, robberies, break-ins, rapes, and murders, etc. If any MP has ever had in his record an incident of domestic violence he can never again have access to weapons [by federal law]. If he shows any indication that he is not in full control of himself, or if he presents any danger to others around him; then I can not issue him a firearm. We did walk into fights, we had to separate fighters and take them into custody, without becoming fighters ourselves. We did have to respond to fire-fights, but we also had to maintain a level head and evaluate who was firing and who was innocent bystanders.
I assure you that the vast majority of military personnel are not 'violent' people. and if you have any great tendency to be violent, then your likely going to prison, even in the military.
This continues to be a subject that will be talked about as long as many more generations live because of this exact thing. What are we going to do with our perverts.
Cut their balls off. Fry em. Shoot them, then cut them, then fry them. A pervert/molester/abuser knows that s/he can spend the little time behind some bars or in some rehab program easily while the rest of us wish and hope and while the powers that be discuss and review laws and hmmm til the offender is released.
Those that have been so violated get it, those that have had a child or other loved one so violated want to be the one who pulls the switch, just for starters.
This idea of sending them to war is not a bad one. As medic said, they'd clearly find 'rehab'. Hopefully the enemy fire would find them. But our laws being what they are, I'd expect they'd be back on our soil in a year or two, angrier, feeling more powerful and in need of control.
Last week in Oklahoma, a man who had apparent plans and implements to torture and cannabalize, killed a 10 year old little girl; a neighbor in his apartment complex. They are giving very little information, but enough to realize he raped her after her death and attempted to remove her head. He's given some statement that includes this child kept telling him she was sorry. She was sorry. Check out this story, look at the face of that sweet child.
The man is being described as one who friends and family would have never expected this from, a hard worker, a nice young man, guy next door.
Textbook.
As a civilian, I can't possibly presume what it's like to go to war, what fear, what activity one must witness and take part in. But that's another good point; why do we get so concerned with what an offenders life might be like in the punishment s/he might receive.
Someone asked how American it is to force an American to war. Hmmm I don't know, but I also find it sad that we Americans spend so much time and money worrying about an offender that forced a child to do the things they do.
Forced them into a car, forced them into a room, forced them to be touched, raped, assaulted, forced them to beg for their life in terror we couldn't possibly know, crying for their parents. Forced them to do things their young minds don't know anything about.
As long as we continue to loose sleep and time worrying about how these phucks 'feel' and what their lives would be like during the punishment they get, we will continue to see this horror go on.
I can't get the visual of that beautiful little girl telling her attacker she was sorry out of my mind.
Can you see it?
Send him to a war zone, send his foot across a mine field, tell him it might have live shells, might not. See if he begs and is SORRY.
Let the other troops know he's raped a little child, give them details while they're missing their babies at home.
You've touched on a subject that brings up some strong feelings in me so I apologize in advance if I hurt any feelings.
The US is founded on the principle of citizen soldiers. Despite the fact that we currently have an all-volunteer military, we've had the draft several times in our history. Even today, the vast number of recruits are there for only one term, expecting to learn a trade, learn discipline and take on adult levels of responsiblity. To imply that the military should be used as the US's social rubbish bin for criminals and undesirables shows (IMHO) either a lack of understanding or a callous indifference of what our military is and should be.
You wouldn't propose to make these violent offenders into cops, would you? Well, it seems that the US military ends up being the world's cops and the conduct of it's military is on view to all the world to see.
Setting aside the social issue, being in the military means depending on your buddy, whether it's to watch your back in combat, haul your foot out of a burning compartment on a ship or maintain your aircraft properly in the Air Force. And the person you depend on is often a 18 or 19 year old just out of high school. It isn't a place for criminally violent, no more than being on your local police force would be.
Criminals cost society plenty, there should be a way to offset that.
The South had a chain gang system where inmates were shackled together and made to work on roads or on the farm. CC has both county and state inmates picking up trash and bushogging the right of ways while others do maintenance and cleaning. It works well if you match the right inmate to the right job, some inmates are unsupervised while others are under the gun so to speak.
When I heard that the EPA cannot clean up all the toxic sites in this nation due to budget restraints and figured labor costs had to account for a good portion of that, something clicked.
Operating a bulldozer isn't rocket science, neither is driving a truck. For that matter working in a disposal facility doesn't require much more than a certificate if I'm not mistaken.
The National Park Service cannot perform maintenance because fo budget cuts. If a campground needs rebuilding or trails cleared or buildings painted then put the inmates to work doing it. Heck some of them prolly did some of these things in the real world and have the knowledge and skills to go right to work. For others it could be an opportunity to learn something that will have a significant effect on thier ability to get a good job when they leave the system.
Ya know, the concept of taking young men heading in the wrong direction and putting them into the military isn't one I came up with off the top of my head. Not very long ago (when I was growing up) it was pretty common for juvenile judges to give a 'troubled teen' the choice of time behind bars or going into the military. Many people I've known were given the same chance as adults when they were first-time offenders.
And it worked.
The original idea I posted was about preventing someone from turning into a 'homicidal maniac' and such.
No way in heII am I suggesting to wait until someone is a full-fledged mad dog and beyond reasonable hope.
Sheesh! Some of you must think I'm a raving lunatic or something. Well. Thanks a whole bunch.
Prevention.
Is that such a hard concept to grasp?
herbiejuan...kewl! Ideas like that are needed in this day and age, imo.
It's TWI logic, too, CW... when kids got "unruly" and unmanageable and deserved to be stoned as in OT times, they frequently suggested that the kids be sent to the military or to the "unbelieving" ex-spouse.
I say put 'em on the front lines and then let's see how tough they are.....Not the poor TWIt kids who were taught wrong growing up and then blamed for not behaving correctly, but those criminals you mentioned, they are the ones who should be on the front lines....if they can survive, they'll either be rehabilitated from necessity or dead without tax payers having to fork out the dough for it.
Sheesh! Some of you must think I'm a raving lunatic or something. Well. Thanks a whole bunch.
You said, and I quote, "known violent offenders"
My post addressed the subject of forcing "known violent offenders" into the military for punishment/training. I posted what I felt was a reasoned argument (prefaced with an apology) as to why I thought that was a bad idea.
Now you play the misunderstood victim.
This is why I stopped responding to your posts for a long time. Well, now I've learned.
Criminals were sent to Nam to avoid prison, look what that did for the moral of our troops. Don't even think about sending these bottom feeders to serve with my son!
My post addressed the subject of forcing "known violent offenders" into the military for punishment/training. I posted what I felt was a reasoned argument (prefaced with an apology) as to why I thought that was a bad idea.
Now you play the misunderstood victim.
This is why I stopped responding to your posts for a long time. Well, now I've learned.
Look, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it...and don't call me victim, either.
And...don't act as if you have some decent reason for not responding to my posts. I'm a reasonable person. I've proven that over and over again. Reason with me and I will reason with you. Toss around insults...well, my husband has a saying..."Don't want crap? Don't start crap."
And...I did not say "known violent offenders". I said "repeat offenders"...and said that as a question my husband and I were pondering...about the problems with the system. You took somebody else's words and made it a quote of mine. I'd say you have misunderstood...or something.
***************
As for the argument that nobody wants themselves or their loved ones serving with 'bottom feeders'...please re-read my posts.
Prevent people from becoming 'bottom feeders'.
What in the world is wrong with such a concept?
And the example of what happened in Nam...
That's a whole different discussion, imo.
It seems like people think that the military doesn't do anything but ship ready-made, patriotic soldiers off to war.
There's a whole lot of training, discipline, preparation and weeding out that goes on in the military. At least the military that my husband, my father, my father-in-law, my grandpa, and my great-great grandpas were in.
Think about it just for a minute...
First, one would be required to finish one's high school education. Then one would undergo physical and psychological testing. If one got through these two requirements, then one would be sent to boot camp where one would learn discipline, self-worth, how to be trustworthy, etc. One would also be trained when, where, how, and for what reasons to use force...as well as the preference of not using force. (Unless, of course, folks think that people go into the military without needing such training and discipline.)
I dunno...
If people are satisfied with the system as is, then forget this thread and the ideas presented.
I can see the overall point Coolwaters is trying to make here, folks. And its similar to the concept of having 'boot camp' like situations for youthful offenders like they have in some states. Shape them up, discipline them through and through, and let them know where the life of crime will take them, and teach them alternatives that they need to take, ... or else!
And programs like that were quite successful, from what I have heard. And I support such programs.
When I got drafted in 1967 there were a number of draftees with me that had a choice of either going to jail or "volunteer" for the draft. I have no idea what their crime was but I do know one was rejected because he stole 13 lawn movers from a hardware store. Uncle Sam didn't want any thieves in Viet Nam.
Yeah, I knew a couple of guys who "volunteered" It was usually a case of getting a girl "in trouble" and avoiding a statuory rape charge. It saved the girl and her parents the embarassment of a trial and got the troublemaker out of town.
My former son-in-law is a total control freak. He liked younger (16-18) girls because they were easier to control. Well, obviously, my daughter was one of these girls.
Pregnant at 16, she moved in with this guy. He was in Marine Reserves at the time...and 23 years old. Anyway, when his 2 weeks/year time came up, my daughter was about 6 months pregnant, ill, and having a very difficult time all-in-all. But he's gotta go. The day after he left, she calls me. Crying, sick and totally scared, she asks me and my hubs to come over for a visit. So we did.
When we arrived she was throwing up...and had been for most of the day. She was shaking and pretty much out of it, too. I recognized these symptoms of hers. She probably hadn't eaten.
So I went to the refrigerator to get something to help settle her stomach so that she could get some food down and keep it down.
What did I find? 27 bottles of booze. That's it.
Then I went to the cupboards for maybe some crackers.
Nothing there but some spices.
And he had left my daughter completely broke and without access to his bank account.
Well, I sent her dad up to the local cafe to get some food for her. Once we got her stabilized and relaxing, we went grocery shopping and filled her refrigerator and cupboards with about 3 weeks worth of decent food.
Then we got all of the booze out of the house.
When this guy got back from his 2 weeks/year, he went ballistic about the booze. He waited until later at night when he knew my husband was at work and I was home alone. Then he barged into my home and started threatening me. "You'll never see your daughter again and you'll never see your grandchild! I'm in control here! I'm taking them away from you! You'll never have the chance to steal my booze again! And if your fat old man of a husband wants to try to do anything about it, I'll kick his a$$ all over the place. You've done it now!"
I'd finally had enough of the crap this 'man' was dumping onto my daughter. I had suspected alcoholism, but had never been allowed close enough to see for myself. I had also suspected other forms of abuse. This whole incident was enough proof for me to just get good and PO'd and do something about the whole mess.
So I contacted this guy's CO.
The CO had a 16yo daughter. The CO found out that this wasn't the first time this guy had done such things with young girls. The CO told me he'd take care of the situation.
Well, my former son-in-law disappeared for 3 weeks. His CO had contacted his brothers (who were also Marine Reservists) and sent the 3 on a 'training mission'.
The boy came back a man.
He pulled some other stuff later on in the relationship, but he never endangered my daughter or granddaughter again. He still takes care of all their needs...even my daughter's if she can't do it by herself. He's never been friendly with me and my hubs, but he's never disrespected us since, either.
About 2 months after his 3 weeks of 'training', he quit doing what he was required to do as a Marine Reservist. He eventually ended up with a DD that stood for 6 months and was changed only because he stayed out of trouble for that 6 months.
2 years ago he was up on several rape charges against a 12yo friend of my granddaughter's. He beat those charges.
This is the difference between military and civilian responses to such situations.
Another example...
A woman I know had a husband who would turn violent towards her whenever he felt the need to 'get her under control'. She put up with it for far too many years. When she at last tried to do something about the situation, she ended up in jail for 4 days because she was scared to testify against her husband. She had a severe panic attack in jail. She was beaten and put into solitary confinement on the tier where male felons were held while going through the court system before going to prison. She was not allowed to shower (couldn't mix her in with the men...and not enough guards to do a special shower time for her), was held in 'the hole' where she had a hole in the floor for a toilet and for water and was not allowed sanitary napkins or more than 4 sheets of TP at once. She was told that her husband was in jail, too, and that her children were in foster care. (Later she found out these were lies.)
She swore then to never call the cops or turn to the system for help again.
Once she was released and went back home (where else was she going to go...her children were at the home), her husband knew she had been broken and the had total control. The violence continued.
Finally a friend of hers pointed out that since the husband was a veteran, then the VA would help her in the situation.
She turned to the VA and told them everything, The VA contacted the husband and gave him a choice of cooperating as an out patient...or cooperating as in patient. The husband agreed to out-patient treatment. He went to anger management sessions 5 days per week for nearly a year. He was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression. He was prescribed medicine and was required to take it to continue as an out-patient. It was obvious to everybody when he did and did not take the medicine, so he couldn't fake it.
The violence stopped immediately...and has not returned in 4 years.
The marriage is healing. The woman is healing. The husband is finding out that he doesn't have to be a monster to survive in this world.
And one final thing I think about all the time concerning the difference between how the military handles situations and how civilian systems handle situations...
If I hadn't been so twit-brained in Alaska and had turned to Rich Urquhart's CO for help, I fully believe that RU would have been stopped in his tracks long before he could do the depth of damage he did to too many children.
These are just some things I think about a whole lot when it comes to what does and what does not work.
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SafariVista
Sounds like a good idea, except how could one be sure the other soldiers on the same side would be safe from the violent person?
I've heard it's very difficult to become a Marine. A person must finish High School, (GED not accepted), with good grades, and have good moral character.
When a person invades the rights of someone else with a violent act, then it's only fair for their 'rights' to VANISH in the same fashion...
Take a life, lose your life... sounds fair only if done quickly! That would save our tax money not having offenders sitting around in prison.
Rape once, lose your sex organ~ will prevent it from happening again~ money saved.
Of course it would take some guts for America to take a stand, and violent crime would decrease.
I think the real problem is that violent criminals are thought of as having rights at all. Once a dog kills, it’s lost it’s right to live in that nice comfy home, and is put to sleep. The owner doesn’t take the time to re-train the dog to be good. Although it's sad for the owner to 'get rid of' the dog, he knows it's what has to be done.
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CoolWaters
And turning to today's headlines...
Taken from the Topeka Capital-Journal online:
The rest of the article.
This article is followed with the article Oversight of homes questioned by the same reporter, which is one of many in the continuing report concerning the abuses perpetrated by a couple who ran another home for mentally disabled folks.
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pond
Be violent , get sent to war. why do they let them out?
It may sound like a good idea, but America is founded on the principle of "we the people", we are a democratic nation with freedoms and rights.
If our nation has a large amount of violent criminals it points to the issue of our nation to take care of our own issues. They are still American and they do still hold their rights and freedom while facing punishiment for a crime.
this is how our government is designed.
how politics work is a different story.
NY has the death penalty , we also have the three strikes your out , 3 felonies and you face life in prison.
How american is it to FORCE any american to go to war??
We do not at this time have a draft although i recognize it can be put in motion at any time .
The soliders that fight for our freedom every day are NOT MURDERS , THEY are not violent , they are God loving good men and women who want to be good citizens . They are the best americans we could ask for in our life.
they are our heros. In every sense of the word.
So put in a butch of insane drug crazed maniacs and ask them to follow orders , in a WAR????
War is a planned out well organized event it is not a shoot out all hell bar mass murder.
The Chief and his generals try to save life not kill our own people.
those in prison for being violent are iin there for a reason , they are anti social and unable to concede to everyday norms and are killers and the lowest scum of our country.
do you really think if you say now got to war and be a solider it will work?
yeah they will just listen and obey and do what needs to be done and take responsibility for the safety of one another.
it isnt going to happen they will kill one another off in a week. they will go a wall and be happy to live in another country , better than prison.
think Cool waters what your dealing with.. it would take more just to keep them under control than the war itself.
they would go to the enemy and make deals and be traitors. They are criminals hello.
do you really think americas finest citizens NEED them? In our very hour of need?
how very insulting to those who give up their life and family and SERVE our country.
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CoolWaters
pond...
You think about what is required before a person is sent to war. 'America's finest' weren't born that way and did not just show up at boot camp that way.
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oilfieldmedic
Go rape a child, kill someone, embezel (sic?), lie, cheat, do drugs...then you stand before a liberal-media-driven judge and what do you get?
REHAB' & COUNSELING!
Give me a break! Heck, send em' over here to Baghdad, there are plenty of rehabilitation opportunities!
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Galen
Dear sweat coolwaters;
Be violent and get sent into the military? come on now!
What makes you think that the military would ever want someone who's mental discernment capabilities can not allow that person to keep out of fights?
To give someone a weapon, the military needs to know that said person is capable to holding the weapon and caring for it, without the using it. Without the need or compulsion to get into fights with his fellow squad members.
To say 'lets throw all homicidal maniacs into the army', the army can not use a person like that. The army would place that person into a federal prison, far away from weapons, and far away from the ability of killing his friends.
I do thank you for the implication that all military members are uncontrollable violent people. I served over 20 years on active duty in the Navy. I have seen crewmen get into fights, in 20 years I can think of two.
Let me tell you what happens. When someone finally 'cracks', and throws a punch. Whoever threw the punch gets separated, they are referred to counseling, and a formal written statement is put into their file. Two of these incidents and they will go before the Commanding Officer for NJP [either a fine, or imprisonment, or reduced-rations, or bread-and-water, or any combination of the above]. If someone throws a punch at you, and you respond then you are also guilty of fighting. One person can 'crack' and fight; and then that one person will be 'in trouble', if two people are seen fighting then both are in trouble. There is no excuse of "I was defending myself", either you were fighitng or you were not fighting.
I served 14 years on submarines, we did have firearms and we did arm our topside watchstanders; but before arming anyone we need to be well assured that each watchstander was in full control of themselves. we were also in control of many nuclear missiles [orbital platforms each capable of launching multiple warheads], as well as torpedos.
I also served 6 years doing Law Enforcement. I carried a loaded pistol, drove a MP car and responded to: traffic accidents, robberies, break-ins, rapes, and murders, etc. If any MP has ever had in his record an incident of domestic violence he can never again have access to weapons [by federal law]. If he shows any indication that he is not in full control of himself, or if he presents any danger to others around him; then I can not issue him a firearm. We did walk into fights, we had to separate fighters and take them into custody, without becoming fighters ourselves. We did have to respond to fire-fights, but we also had to maintain a level head and evaluate who was firing and who was innocent bystanders.
I assure you that the vast majority of military personnel are not 'violent' people. and if you have any great tendency to be violent, then your likely going to prison, even in the military.
:)
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Shellon
This continues to be a subject that will be talked about as long as many more generations live because of this exact thing. What are we going to do with our perverts.
Cut their balls off. Fry em. Shoot them, then cut them, then fry them. A pervert/molester/abuser knows that s/he can spend the little time behind some bars or in some rehab program easily while the rest of us wish and hope and while the powers that be discuss and review laws and hmmm til the offender is released.
Those that have been so violated get it, those that have had a child or other loved one so violated want to be the one who pulls the switch, just for starters.
This idea of sending them to war is not a bad one. As medic said, they'd clearly find 'rehab'. Hopefully the enemy fire would find them. But our laws being what they are, I'd expect they'd be back on our soil in a year or two, angrier, feeling more powerful and in need of control.
Last week in Oklahoma, a man who had apparent plans and implements to torture and cannabalize, killed a 10 year old little girl; a neighbor in his apartment complex. They are giving very little information, but enough to realize he raped her after her death and attempted to remove her head. He's given some statement that includes this child kept telling him she was sorry. She was sorry. Check out this story, look at the face of that sweet child.
The man is being described as one who friends and family would have never expected this from, a hard worker, a nice young man, guy next door.
Textbook.
As a civilian, I can't possibly presume what it's like to go to war, what fear, what activity one must witness and take part in. But that's another good point; why do we get so concerned with what an offenders life might be like in the punishment s/he might receive.
Someone asked how American it is to force an American to war. Hmmm I don't know, but I also find it sad that we Americans spend so much time and money worrying about an offender that forced a child to do the things they do.
Forced them into a car, forced them into a room, forced them to be touched, raped, assaulted, forced them to beg for their life in terror we couldn't possibly know, crying for their parents. Forced them to do things their young minds don't know anything about.
As long as we continue to loose sleep and time worrying about how these phucks 'feel' and what their lives would be like during the punishment they get, we will continue to see this horror go on.
I can't get the visual of that beautiful little girl telling her attacker she was sorry out of my mind.
Can you see it?
Send him to a war zone, send his foot across a mine field, tell him it might have live shells, might not. See if he begs and is SORRY.
Let the other troops know he's raped a little child, give them details while they're missing their babies at home.
Unbelievable.
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krys
We should tie them to a pole and use them for target practice.
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Jim
You've touched on a subject that brings up some strong feelings in me so I apologize in advance if I hurt any feelings.
The US is founded on the principle of citizen soldiers. Despite the fact that we currently have an all-volunteer military, we've had the draft several times in our history. Even today, the vast number of recruits are there for only one term, expecting to learn a trade, learn discipline and take on adult levels of responsiblity. To imply that the military should be used as the US's social rubbish bin for criminals and undesirables shows (IMHO) either a lack of understanding or a callous indifference of what our military is and should be.
You wouldn't propose to make these violent offenders into cops, would you? Well, it seems that the US military ends up being the world's cops and the conduct of it's military is on view to all the world to see.
Setting aside the social issue, being in the military means depending on your buddy, whether it's to watch your back in combat, haul your foot out of a burning compartment on a ship or maintain your aircraft properly in the Air Force. And the person you depend on is often a 18 or 19 year old just out of high school. It isn't a place for criminally violent, no more than being on your local police force would be.
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herbiejuan
Cool I like your premise.
Criminals cost society plenty, there should be a way to offset that.
The South had a chain gang system where inmates were shackled together and made to work on roads or on the farm. CC has both county and state inmates picking up trash and bushogging the right of ways while others do maintenance and cleaning. It works well if you match the right inmate to the right job, some inmates are unsupervised while others are under the gun so to speak.
When I heard that the EPA cannot clean up all the toxic sites in this nation due to budget restraints and figured labor costs had to account for a good portion of that, something clicked.
Operating a bulldozer isn't rocket science, neither is driving a truck. For that matter working in a disposal facility doesn't require much more than a certificate if I'm not mistaken.
The National Park Service cannot perform maintenance because fo budget cuts. If a campground needs rebuilding or trails cleared or buildings painted then put the inmates to work doing it. Heck some of them prolly did some of these things in the real world and have the knowledge and skills to go right to work. For others it could be an opportunity to learn something that will have a significant effect on thier ability to get a good job when they leave the system.
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CoolWaters
Ya know, the concept of taking young men heading in the wrong direction and putting them into the military isn't one I came up with off the top of my head. Not very long ago (when I was growing up) it was pretty common for juvenile judges to give a 'troubled teen' the choice of time behind bars or going into the military. Many people I've known were given the same chance as adults when they were first-time offenders.
And it worked.
The original idea I posted was about preventing someone from turning into a 'homicidal maniac' and such.
No way in heII am I suggesting to wait until someone is a full-fledged mad dog and beyond reasonable hope.
Sheesh! Some of you must think I'm a raving lunatic or something. Well. Thanks a whole bunch.
Prevention.
Is that such a hard concept to grasp?
herbiejuan...kewl! Ideas like that are needed in this day and age, imo.
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Belle
It's TWI logic, too, CW... when kids got "unruly" and unmanageable and deserved to be stoned as in OT times, they frequently suggested that the kids be sent to the military or to the "unbelieving" ex-spouse.
I say put 'em on the front lines and then let's see how tough they are.....Not the poor TWIt kids who were taught wrong growing up and then blamed for not behaving correctly, but those criminals you mentioned, they are the ones who should be on the front lines....if they can survive, they'll either be rehabilitated from necessity or dead without tax payers having to fork out the dough for it.
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likeaneagle
OFM- your right.....very quickly would thier actions be accountable for..
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Jim
Coolwaters said:
You said, and I quote, "known violent offenders"
My post addressed the subject of forcing "known violent offenders" into the military for punishment/training. I posted what I felt was a reasoned argument (prefaced with an apology) as to why I thought that was a bad idea.
Now you play the misunderstood victim.
This is why I stopped responding to your posts for a long time. Well, now I've learned.
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wingnut
Criminals were sent to Nam to avoid prison, look what that did for the moral of our troops. Don't even think about sending these bottom feeders to serve with my son!
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CoolWaters
Look, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it...and don't call me victim, either.
And...don't act as if you have some decent reason for not responding to my posts. I'm a reasonable person. I've proven that over and over again. Reason with me and I will reason with you. Toss around insults...well, my husband has a saying..."Don't want crap? Don't start crap."
And...I did not say "known violent offenders". I said "repeat offenders"...and said that as a question my husband and I were pondering...about the problems with the system. You took somebody else's words and made it a quote of mine. I'd say you have misunderstood...or something.
***************
As for the argument that nobody wants themselves or their loved ones serving with 'bottom feeders'...please re-read my posts.
Prevent people from becoming 'bottom feeders'.
What in the world is wrong with such a concept?
And the example of what happened in Nam...
That's a whole different discussion, imo.
It seems like people think that the military doesn't do anything but ship ready-made, patriotic soldiers off to war.
There's a whole lot of training, discipline, preparation and weeding out that goes on in the military. At least the military that my husband, my father, my father-in-law, my grandpa, and my great-great grandpas were in.
Think about it just for a minute...
First, one would be required to finish one's high school education. Then one would undergo physical and psychological testing. If one got through these two requirements, then one would be sent to boot camp where one would learn discipline, self-worth, how to be trustworthy, etc. One would also be trained when, where, how, and for what reasons to use force...as well as the preference of not using force. (Unless, of course, folks think that people go into the military without needing such training and discipline.)
I dunno...
If people are satisfied with the system as is, then forget this thread and the ideas presented.
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GarthP2000
I can see the overall point Coolwaters is trying to make here, folks. And its similar to the concept of having 'boot camp' like situations for youthful offenders like they have in some states. Shape them up, discipline them through and through, and let them know where the life of crime will take them, and teach them alternatives that they need to take, ... or else!
And programs like that were quite successful, from what I have heard. And I support such programs.
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OnionEater
When I got drafted in 1967 there were a number of draftees with me that had a choice of either going to jail or "volunteer" for the draft. I have no idea what their crime was but I do know one was rejected because he stole 13 lawn movers from a hardware store. Uncle Sam didn't want any thieves in Viet Nam.
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Jim
Onion,
Yeah, I knew a couple of guys who "volunteered" It was usually a case of getting a girl "in trouble" and avoiding a statuory rape charge. It saved the girl and her parents the embarassment of a trial and got the troublemaker out of town.
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Tom Strange
I knew some guys that were given the "choice" of going to jail or going to Nam... but none of them were 'violent' crimes...
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CoolWaters
My former son-in-law is a total control freak. He liked younger (16-18) girls because they were easier to control. Well, obviously, my daughter was one of these girls.
Pregnant at 16, she moved in with this guy. He was in Marine Reserves at the time...and 23 years old. Anyway, when his 2 weeks/year time came up, my daughter was about 6 months pregnant, ill, and having a very difficult time all-in-all. But he's gotta go. The day after he left, she calls me. Crying, sick and totally scared, she asks me and my hubs to come over for a visit. So we did.
When we arrived she was throwing up...and had been for most of the day. She was shaking and pretty much out of it, too. I recognized these symptoms of hers. She probably hadn't eaten.
So I went to the refrigerator to get something to help settle her stomach so that she could get some food down and keep it down.
What did I find? 27 bottles of booze. That's it.
Then I went to the cupboards for maybe some crackers.
Nothing there but some spices.
And he had left my daughter completely broke and without access to his bank account.
Well, I sent her dad up to the local cafe to get some food for her. Once we got her stabilized and relaxing, we went grocery shopping and filled her refrigerator and cupboards with about 3 weeks worth of decent food.
Then we got all of the booze out of the house.
When this guy got back from his 2 weeks/year, he went ballistic about the booze. He waited until later at night when he knew my husband was at work and I was home alone. Then he barged into my home and started threatening me. "You'll never see your daughter again and you'll never see your grandchild! I'm in control here! I'm taking them away from you! You'll never have the chance to steal my booze again! And if your fat old man of a husband wants to try to do anything about it, I'll kick his a$$ all over the place. You've done it now!"
I'd finally had enough of the crap this 'man' was dumping onto my daughter. I had suspected alcoholism, but had never been allowed close enough to see for myself. I had also suspected other forms of abuse. This whole incident was enough proof for me to just get good and PO'd and do something about the whole mess.
So I contacted this guy's CO.
The CO had a 16yo daughter. The CO found out that this wasn't the first time this guy had done such things with young girls. The CO told me he'd take care of the situation.
Well, my former son-in-law disappeared for 3 weeks. His CO had contacted his brothers (who were also Marine Reservists) and sent the 3 on a 'training mission'.
The boy came back a man.
He pulled some other stuff later on in the relationship, but he never endangered my daughter or granddaughter again. He still takes care of all their needs...even my daughter's if she can't do it by herself. He's never been friendly with me and my hubs, but he's never disrespected us since, either.
About 2 months after his 3 weeks of 'training', he quit doing what he was required to do as a Marine Reservist. He eventually ended up with a DD that stood for 6 months and was changed only because he stayed out of trouble for that 6 months.
2 years ago he was up on several rape charges against a 12yo friend of my granddaughter's. He beat those charges.
This is the difference between military and civilian responses to such situations.
Another example...
A woman I know had a husband who would turn violent towards her whenever he felt the need to 'get her under control'. She put up with it for far too many years. When she at last tried to do something about the situation, she ended up in jail for 4 days because she was scared to testify against her husband. She had a severe panic attack in jail. She was beaten and put into solitary confinement on the tier where male felons were held while going through the court system before going to prison. She was not allowed to shower (couldn't mix her in with the men...and not enough guards to do a special shower time for her), was held in 'the hole' where she had a hole in the floor for a toilet and for water and was not allowed sanitary napkins or more than 4 sheets of TP at once. She was told that her husband was in jail, too, and that her children were in foster care. (Later she found out these were lies.)
She swore then to never call the cops or turn to the system for help again.
Once she was released and went back home (where else was she going to go...her children were at the home), her husband knew she had been broken and the had total control. The violence continued.
Finally a friend of hers pointed out that since the husband was a veteran, then the VA would help her in the situation.
She turned to the VA and told them everything, The VA contacted the husband and gave him a choice of cooperating as an out patient...or cooperating as in patient. The husband agreed to out-patient treatment. He went to anger management sessions 5 days per week for nearly a year. He was diagnosed with anxiety disorder and depression. He was prescribed medicine and was required to take it to continue as an out-patient. It was obvious to everybody when he did and did not take the medicine, so he couldn't fake it.
The violence stopped immediately...and has not returned in 4 years.
The marriage is healing. The woman is healing. The husband is finding out that he doesn't have to be a monster to survive in this world.
And one final thing I think about all the time concerning the difference between how the military handles situations and how civilian systems handle situations...
If I hadn't been so twit-brained in Alaska and had turned to Rich Urquhart's CO for help, I fully believe that RU would have been stopped in his tracks long before he could do the depth of damage he did to too many children.
These are just some things I think about a whole lot when it comes to what does and what does not work.
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