And, did you all know that the moderators have exchanged the word pu$$y, for the word, "wimp"? What a funny way to censor the word "pu$$y". Go ahead and type the word "pu$$y" correctly, and see what you get. You'[ll get the word "wimp". Weird. Youall are getting way paranoid to censor words like that....
How about showing a little maturity and using sensible words instead of going for the base, especially as you are presenting yourself as a Christian while trying to figure out ways to use inappropriate language? We censor words because we want a clean site. If anyone should be expected to agree with that judgment, we would think it would be the Christians on this board.
We censor words because we want a clean site. If anyone should be expected to agree with that judgment, we would think it would be the Christians on this board.
There has to be a balance between letting people run rampant on one hand and nitpicking every post with a creative way of inserting a dirty word on the other. There are a few words in this thread that could probably use a little moderating. Sometimes we err on the side of free speech, and sometimes we err on the side of cordiality. The posts we're specifically discussing haven't been edited, after all. But if anyone doesn't want a comment from a mod on why they're not allowed to use certain words, don't invite the mods to comment by calling them "paranoid" for censoring a few words we wouldn't say in His presence.
Most posters on these threads were at one time involved with twi. During our tenure there we had a variety of experiences, both good and bad. At some point, we felt the association was no longer of benefit to our lives and decided it was in our best interests to leave. For some the parting was sorrowful, but uneventful. Regrettably, for some it was tragic due to the abuse they suffered.
After leaving, most of us learned (of or more about) the unconscionable acts that were committed by vpw and other leadership. Our reactions to this knowledge, and especially that related to vpw, has impacted how we view our experience with twi. There seem to be at least two prevailing viewpoints.
Camp 1 - Those who are horrified and disgusted by the evil and do not forgive/excuse/ ignore/deny these acts. However, they feel the acts do not erase nor negate the benefits received from twi, and, therefore, do not dismiss the good because of the bad.
Camp 2 - Those who are so horrified and disgusted by the evil that they can no longer feel that any good can be associated with vpw or twi. Therefore, they dismiss the good along with the bad.
Although I adhere to the belief of camp 1, I can understand the reasoning for the belief of camp 2. If I had suffered the abuse some posters experienced, I may have found myself in camp 2, also. Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion. I don't think one is necessarily right, and the other wrong; both camps have valid viewpoints. This is the point where I think we posters can respectfully acknowledge that we agree to disagree instead of creating a war zone of camp 1 versus camp 2.
Many have come to a point where we can accept and validate the differences in our viewpoints, rather than belittling and battling one another. Some posters do not seem to have reached that point yet, as captured well by allan w.
Hey GS'ers, w/o the Allans, Oldies, JohnIams, Ex10's, White Doves, Sudosuda's, Johnny Lingos and yes, even the Mikes, you'd all end up bitter old prunes by midnight, so gives us a break WILL YA. !!
The bitterness I read (and hear between the lines) here from SOME of the camp 2ers is disconcerting. I have no problem with anyone expressing anger or other negative emotions. It’s the dwelling in bitterness that concerns me because it indicates that the person is still hurting and in turmoil. How did the anger become a deep-seated bitterness? Is it the more they read, the more bad they discover, the more deeply embittered they become? Do they feel that they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked and are immensely angry with themselves for this and cannot forgive themselves? Has their ego been irrepairably damaged? Do they feel that if they can no longer trust or have confidence in the Bible, God, other people, etc., well, by dam*, no one else can either? They seem to have become so angry, unhappy, and defensive that they take those negative passions out on others in order to deny or relieve themselves of their emotional pain. This pain seems to control the tone of their replies to those they disagree with and rushes out in venomous words which can be quite hurtful to others. When a camp1er tells of positive experiences they hold on to, they are rebuffed by 'personal experience in a cult is no guarantee for truth', and fail to see that they (the camp 2er)are elevating their own personal experience of the bad as truth, while denying those in camp 1 the same liberty.
GSC offers a very positive and therapeutic environment where people can come and explore/vent/etc. their confusion/anger/despair with twi. It's refreshing to see how many have come (or are coming to) grips with their anger, and I hope many others can reach that point also. Seems it would be profitable for each of us to confront our own demons instead of trying to pave a road to hell for someone else. Instead of living in a war zone, wouldn’t it be better to accept each other’s reality of their feelings about twi/vpw? IMHO, the acceptance of the other person’s reality is the only true pathway to peace. Agreeing to disagree is healthy and nondestructive.
After leaving, most of us learned (of or more about) the unconscionable acts that were committed by vpw and other leadership. Our reactions to this knowledge, and especially that related to vpw, has impacted how we view our experience with twi. There seem to be at least two prevailing viewpoints.
Camp 1 - Those who are horrified and disgusted by the evil and do not forgive/excuse/ ignore/deny these acts. However, they feel the acts do not erase nor negate the benefits received from twi, and, therefore, do not dismiss the good because of the bad.
Camp 2 - Those who are so horrified and disgusted by the evil that they can no longer feel that any good can be associated with vpw or twi. Therefore, they dismiss the good along with the bad.
I directly challenge these assertions.
I shall explain how I see it, and why.
I see one majority rough category, and 2 minority rough categories.
Category 1 (Majority)-
"There was some good in twi. However, the evil actions and doctrines of pfal significantly
taint it. Doctrine is suspect, since some of it was phrased or formulated as a result of
corrupt thinking or to facilitate sin.
Some people in twi, ignorant of the corruption from the top, endeavoured to be
loving Christians, so some others had fantastic experiences as a result of
THEIR INVOLVEMENT."
Category 2 (Minority)-
"vpw was well-intentioned from the beginning to the end. I had good experiences
in twi, vpw founded twi, therefore, I credit vpw for my good experiences.
I wish the others here wouldnt keep suggesting vpw sinned a lot."
Category 3 (Minority)-
"vpw was a fraud from the beginning. twi was a fraud from the beginning.
Christianity is an opinion, and can be nice and all-but in hands like vpw,
it becomes a corrupt system which should have been torn down."
The original poster claimed that a number of posters here dismiss any
good from twi.
According to the anonymous poll, 12.5% of respondents have done so-
claiming he was a fraud from the beginning, therefore pfal and the
rest was window dressing for a scam.
According to the anonymous poll, 80% of respondents have claimed
that vpw's sin had a significant effect on his doctrine, policies, and
practices.
(This further divides into 25% saying this was significant but not
overwhelming, and 55% claiming it was across-the-board and
categorical.)
If this is a representative response, 4 out of every 5 posters is
saying this.
A third category of responses can be shown from the
remaining 7.5% of respondents.
They claim that sin had no effect on doctrine, policies and
practices, either because vpw sinned a little and it didn't
touch them (5%) or because they're a sold-out vpw worshipper
(2.5%).
The 80% are not people who have claimed that bad experience
completely negates any positive experience they or others
may have had.
That's either the 12.5% category mentioned above,
or a category almost identical to the description someone gave-
of "no good can be associated with twi" as a result of the bad.
That's the position
"vp sinned and therefore he did no good."
Some people have CLAIMED that a number of posters have
been holding that position.
However, that position has been selected by 0.0% of
respondents. That's right- even anonymously, nobody claimed
that's anything like their position.
So, I consider this position a convenient FICTION that allows
vpw apologists and defenders to label and belittle those
who have come to different conclusions based on the
evidence at hand.
===========
On a slightly different subject,
is DOES often get heated here.
Why?
My opinion-take it for what you will-
is that it is a combination of the specific setting,
and the vpw apologists.
As for the setting, people arrive here-often internet
"virgins" who've never seen another board-
with crippled interpersonal skills and reasoning skills
after exposure to twi.
They learn many ugly things. They're hurt from their
own wounds which are healing-so they react.
They're offended by what they've read-so they react.
Both of these can look ugly-but they're part of the
healing process.
That produces heated posts.
As for the other,
take the people I just described,
emotionally hurt, recovering, getting professional
help elsewhere and using this as an encounter
group and a sounding board.
Then add people who claim that the complaints
are exagerrated.
NOW we're going to see some heated discussion.
In short,
the regular cycle of vpw apologetics and defenders-
who sometimes call others LIARS and attack
anyone who insults their memory of vpw-
THIS is to blame for the worst threads.
We can't put an end to the therapy encounters,
because they're part of why the GSC EXISTS.
People come here to learn, heal and hang out.
We CAN consider ending the continuous adulation
of vpw without defeating the purpose of the GSC.
It wont happen anyway because the powers-that-be
insist on allowing all viewpoints to be posted here,
Yeah whatever, wordwolf, I get sick of the whole discussion. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, I just can't go certain places over and over again. I get tired. So sorry.
I always enjoy reading your posts. Your presentations are well thought out and logical. I have learned a lot from you.
Your descriptions of the categoreis are much better than mine.
GSC is a great forum for healing and heated discussions are good.
My concern is for the few posters who strike with venom in many of their posts. I wonder if they have chosen to remain wounded because they cannot or will not face the pain inherent in the healing process. Instead of facing their pain, they spew it outwards onto others in hopes that it will dissipate their inner turmoil. If this is true, and they are stuck in this bitterness, can they ever heal? That is my concern for them, not their group/camp. There seem to be people in this stuck mode which fit into each of the categories you described above.
You are so refreshing. When things start to heat to a boil, your observations always seem to be on target. Keep "butting in", you're doing a great job.
Some of the posters here were sexually abused by Way leaders. Please don't judge others by your experience. Thanks for the kudos, but truth be told, many here experienced way bad things at the hands of "way ministers." Sometimes, it gets to be a bit much. Even for me.
In this particular thread, the only person I think is striking with venom in ckmkeon. And I feel for him because he does appear to be stuck. He's so confused that he seems incapable of taking in any new information that could help him escape his plight. And the irony of all this, is that ckmkeon is more aligned with camp 1, and it was his bitterness and venom that set me off and prompted my initial post. But I got sidetracked on the war zone between the two camps, and addressed that rather than ckmkeon's refusal to entertain new information and his habit of just striking back with venom.
I know that many posters experienced atrocities at the hands of way ministers and my heart and prayers are with them in their healing process. Although the perpetrators have not acknowledged the he11 they caused in the lives of their victims, other posters here have done so. This validation seems to be helping those who were victimized receive some healing in those areas of their life. For many, it will be a long process, and my prayers will continue to be with them throughout their journey.
Initially, I was confused by your statement "please don't judge others by your own experience". But after re-reading my post, I can understand where you would think that I was addressing those who suffered abuse, when actually I was referring to "Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion." It is their dwelling in bitterness that concerns me.
As you can probably tell, I am still in the healing process myself. I have pretty much come to terms with the sorrow I experienced at the "death" of the twi I knew and loved due to the evil pervading the leadership. What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home. I continue to be thankful for the benefits I received from twi, and am confronted with bitterness because of my stance. In my visits to the GSC I have tried to glean information to help me understand the reasons for this bitterness. Some doors of communication have been opened due to my contemplation of the posts here. While mulling over your post tonight, I realized that what prompts me to respond to many posts are the emotions they stir up related to this daily struggle, rather than to the content of the post itself. And because I am reacting to my personal struggle, my comments are misdirected, and, therefore, easily misunderstood. Thank you for helping me to see this. I will try to avoid this in the future.
Well what EVER camp I fall into.... I think an awfull lot of each of you guys. Each and every one of you provide a unique perspective and different piece of the twi puzzle for me.
You said, "What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home."
It seems to me that verbal digs and arguments accumulate when each side feels there is a personal stake in their point of view. But the bottom line is, a person can live an ethical and kind life and not profess to believe in PFAL, or even Christianity. Likewise, plenty of people have incorporated what they learned from TWI into a loving lifestyle.
As for me, I HOPE that the Bible is true. I have no proof. Yeah, yeah, "SIT is proof in the senses realm of the internal reality, etc." but if a person believes SIT as practiced by TWI is only some kind of psychological phenomenon, then it isn't proof either. Yet I hope that there is eternal life, and ultimate justice.
I have come to feel that, in this life, it is not so much what I believe or what has happened to me that is important, but rather how I respond to my beliefs and experiences. After all, there is only one now, and the hereafter will have to take care of itself. I no longer think that "the Word is at stake," love is.
Does your belief in following Christ make you a better person? Does Sudo's belief that TWI taught a bunch of malarky make him a better person? (Not trying to trivialize either of you, just trying to abbreviate.) Can you both respect in each other that desire to want to be better? Does that empathy keep the love going?
Both you and Sudo come across on these boards as good and decent people. I hope you can both use what you've learned to respect each other, and grow together in love even as you learn that you don't have to be joined at the hip. "Likeminded" in the importance of your relationship, not necessarily in every point of doctrine.
Thanks for letting me think about where my head is at this point in my life's walk,
Yeah whatever, wordwolf, I get sick of the whole discussion. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, I just can't go certain places over and over again. I get tired. So sorry.
T- I guess that makes you a category 4 - a new one! Been there done that, don't want to do it again and Tired :) If you would have shelled out the bucks for the T-Shirt you would have been a 4a been there done that ,tired with a cheap souvenir.
LOL now we are categorized just like usages of holy spirit Gee I can't wait till we get to the sub categories. I hope we get to 8a soon
My concern is for the few posters who strike with venom in many of their posts. I wonder if they have chosen to remain wounded because they cannot or will not face the pain inherent in the healing process.
That would be a valid observation if it were not for the fact that the most venemous of posters are, not the ones who were wounded by TWI, but the ones who are in the camp of "TWI was great and so was VPW"
Never was in TWI under vee pee. Never took PFAL millions of times. Never was raped or abused by vee pee. He was long dead by the time I was introduced to TWI and PFAL.
I WAS abused at the hands of craiggers, his cronies (all former vee pee cronies) and honestly never got a single good thing from my experience with TWI. My stupid decision to get involved and stay involved caused nothing but ruin, havoc and lost dreams in my life.
If vee pee had been stopped. If vee pee hadn't been allowed to flouris. If there had been some way for me to learn about vee pee, the founder of this outfit, I would like to think that I'd be out at the park with my husband, my 2.5 kids, my dog and basking in the love my parents, my grandparents and my family that I would have never put an incredible strain on and hurt so much. :(
If there was any good in vee pee it was not nearly enough to offset the death and destruction in his wake.
IF there was an ounce of altruism in him and his desire to help folks, it wasn't enough because the fruit of his life and his ministry clearly shows me that it wasn't enough and, I think, was totally fake. This man started something evil - something counterfeit that only appeared to be genuine.
ESPECIALLY given the knowledge that he was always a lazy, lying, sneaky, charlatan scamming folks from a child....raping women in a recognizable ethical church....lying that he was kicked out for teaching about money....sorry the bad far outweighs the good in his life (and I'm really not sure about any good being in his life). I think some folks did have good experiences with him personally, but even the devil can appear "nice" when it's in his best interest.
I think anything good that came from someone's involvement with TWI came from the fact that vee pee was able to acquire the assistance from some genuine folks - not because of vee pee or his stolen teachings...
Sorry, this is a real sore spot for me. I don't begrudge anyone's good times and I really do enjoy hearing about those times. I just don't have them and if vee pee had been stopped - if TWI had been stopped by 1993 - my life story would be a whole lot different. I'd like to think better, but it definitely would have been a whole lot different.
It's so hard for me to see any redeeming qualities in that man's life and I sure as heck (not cursing out of respect for the mods :) ) don't believe there were any genuine ones.
AW, suda. Thank you so much for your patience and graciousness with me. I'm so sorry I misunderstoond your post. After re-reading your words this morning, I had an "aha" moment and think I understand.
Your point of view has been refreshing, and much food for thought. I guess I just don't think of certain posters as coming off as bitter, as much as just plain venting. I've done it a few times myself here, over the years. :)
The internal churning, I understand. Like Shaz said, I don't think it's so much what happens to us that matters, but how we respond to what happens. And it is love that is at stake. There is much wisdom in those words, I think.
Thank you again, for your graciousness and kindness, suda.
But if anyone doesn't want a comment from a mod on why they're not allowed to use certain words, don't invite the mods to comment by calling them "paranoid" for censoring a few words we wouldn't say in His presence.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
10
11
10
Popular Days
Apr 15
35
Apr 13
34
Apr 14
25
Apr 16
16
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 11 posts
ex10 10 posts
J0nny Ling0 11 posts
Suda 10 posts
Popular Days
Apr 15 2006
35 posts
Apr 13 2006
34 posts
Apr 14 2006
25 posts
Apr 16 2006
16 posts
Suda
Have really enjoyed reading this thread.
Johnny Lingo, I have especially enjoyed your posts as you seem to be able to state so succinctly many of my opinions/beliefs.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
How about showing a little maturity and using sensible words instead of going for the base, especially as you are presenting yourself as a Christian while trying to figure out ways to use inappropriate language? We censor words because we want a clean site. If anyone should be expected to agree with that judgment, we would think it would be the Christians on this board.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
So if I don't profess to be a Christian, can I use the word [you-know]?
Just a rude feller of the baser sort,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
It has been a DISGRACE, for ME to have been --- Yada Yada!
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
So when did this become a 'clean' site ??!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
There has to be a balance between letting people run rampant on one hand and nitpicking every post with a creative way of inserting a dirty word on the other. There are a few words in this thread that could probably use a little moderating. Sometimes we err on the side of free speech, and sometimes we err on the side of cordiality. The posts we're specifically discussing haven't been edited, after all. But if anyone doesn't want a comment from a mod on why they're not allowed to use certain words, don't invite the mods to comment by calling them "paranoid" for censoring a few words we wouldn't say in His presence.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Most posters on these threads were at one time involved with twi. During our tenure there we had a variety of experiences, both good and bad. At some point, we felt the association was no longer of benefit to our lives and decided it was in our best interests to leave. For some the parting was sorrowful, but uneventful. Regrettably, for some it was tragic due to the abuse they suffered.
After leaving, most of us learned (of or more about) the unconscionable acts that were committed by vpw and other leadership. Our reactions to this knowledge, and especially that related to vpw, has impacted how we view our experience with twi. There seem to be at least two prevailing viewpoints.
Camp 1 - Those who are horrified and disgusted by the evil and do not forgive/excuse/ ignore/deny these acts. However, they feel the acts do not erase nor negate the benefits received from twi, and, therefore, do not dismiss the good because of the bad.
Camp 2 - Those who are so horrified and disgusted by the evil that they can no longer feel that any good can be associated with vpw or twi. Therefore, they dismiss the good along with the bad.
Although I adhere to the belief of camp 1, I can understand the reasoning for the belief of camp 2. If I had suffered the abuse some posters experienced, I may have found myself in camp 2, also. Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion. I don't think one is necessarily right, and the other wrong; both camps have valid viewpoints. This is the point where I think we posters can respectfully acknowledge that we agree to disagree instead of creating a war zone of camp 1 versus camp 2.
Many have come to a point where we can accept and validate the differences in our viewpoints, rather than belittling and battling one another. Some posters do not seem to have reached that point yet, as captured well by allan w.
The bitterness I read (and hear between the lines) here from SOME of the camp 2ers is disconcerting. I have no problem with anyone expressing anger or other negative emotions. It’s the dwelling in bitterness that concerns me because it indicates that the person is still hurting and in turmoil. How did the anger become a deep-seated bitterness? Is it the more they read, the more bad they discover, the more deeply embittered they become? Do they feel that they allowed themselves to be hoodwinked and are immensely angry with themselves for this and cannot forgive themselves? Has their ego been irrepairably damaged? Do they feel that if they can no longer trust or have confidence in the Bible, God, other people, etc., well, by dam*, no one else can either? They seem to have become so angry, unhappy, and defensive that they take those negative passions out on others in order to deny or relieve themselves of their emotional pain. This pain seems to control the tone of their replies to those they disagree with and rushes out in venomous words which can be quite hurtful to others. When a camp1er tells of positive experiences they hold on to, they are rebuffed by 'personal experience in a cult is no guarantee for truth', and fail to see that they (the camp 2er)are elevating their own personal experience of the bad as truth, while denying those in camp 1 the same liberty.
GSC offers a very positive and therapeutic environment where people can come and explore/vent/etc. their confusion/anger/despair with twi. It's refreshing to see how many have come (or are coming to) grips with their anger, and I hope many others can reach that point also. Seems it would be profitable for each of us to confront our own demons instead of trying to pave a road to hell for someone else. Instead of living in a war zone, wouldn’t it be better to accept each other’s reality of their feelings about twi/vpw? IMHO, the acceptance of the other person’s reality is the only true pathway to peace. Agreeing to disagree is healthy and nondestructive.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I directly challenge these assertions.
I shall explain how I see it, and why.
I see one majority rough category, and 2 minority rough categories.
Category 1 (Majority)-
"There was some good in twi. However, the evil actions and doctrines of pfal significantly
taint it. Doctrine is suspect, since some of it was phrased or formulated as a result of
corrupt thinking or to facilitate sin.
Some people in twi, ignorant of the corruption from the top, endeavoured to be
loving Christians, so some others had fantastic experiences as a result of
THEIR INVOLVEMENT."
Category 2 (Minority)-
"vpw was well-intentioned from the beginning to the end. I had good experiences
in twi, vpw founded twi, therefore, I credit vpw for my good experiences.
I wish the others here wouldnt keep suggesting vpw sinned a lot."
Category 3 (Minority)-
"vpw was a fraud from the beginning. twi was a fraud from the beginning.
Christianity is an opinion, and can be nice and all-but in hands like vpw,
it becomes a corrupt system which should have been torn down."
The original poster claimed that a number of posters here dismiss any
good from twi.
According to the anonymous poll, 12.5% of respondents have done so-
claiming he was a fraud from the beginning, therefore pfal and the
rest was window dressing for a scam.
According to the anonymous poll, 80% of respondents have claimed
that vpw's sin had a significant effect on his doctrine, policies, and
practices.
(This further divides into 25% saying this was significant but not
overwhelming, and 55% claiming it was across-the-board and
categorical.)
If this is a representative response, 4 out of every 5 posters is
saying this.
A third category of responses can be shown from the
remaining 7.5% of respondents.
They claim that sin had no effect on doctrine, policies and
practices, either because vpw sinned a little and it didn't
touch them (5%) or because they're a sold-out vpw worshipper
(2.5%).
The 80% are not people who have claimed that bad experience
completely negates any positive experience they or others
may have had.
That's either the 12.5% category mentioned above,
or a category almost identical to the description someone gave-
of "no good can be associated with twi" as a result of the bad.
That's the position
"vp sinned and therefore he did no good."
Some people have CLAIMED that a number of posters have
been holding that position.
However, that position has been selected by 0.0% of
respondents. That's right- even anonymously, nobody claimed
that's anything like their position.
So, I consider this position a convenient FICTION that allows
vpw apologists and defenders to label and belittle those
who have come to different conclusions based on the
evidence at hand.
===========
On a slightly different subject,
is DOES often get heated here.
Why?
My opinion-take it for what you will-
is that it is a combination of the specific setting,
and the vpw apologists.
As for the setting, people arrive here-often internet
"virgins" who've never seen another board-
with crippled interpersonal skills and reasoning skills
after exposure to twi.
They learn many ugly things. They're hurt from their
own wounds which are healing-so they react.
They're offended by what they've read-so they react.
Both of these can look ugly-but they're part of the
healing process.
That produces heated posts.
As for the other,
take the people I just described,
emotionally hurt, recovering, getting professional
help elsewhere and using this as an encounter
group and a sounding board.
Then add people who claim that the complaints
are exagerrated.
NOW we're going to see some heated discussion.
In short,
the regular cycle of vpw apologetics and defenders-
who sometimes call others LIARS and attack
anyone who insults their memory of vpw-
THIS is to blame for the worst threads.
We can't put an end to the therapy encounters,
because they're part of why the GSC EXISTS.
People come here to learn, heal and hang out.
We CAN consider ending the continuous adulation
of vpw without defeating the purpose of the GSC.
It wont happen anyway because the powers-that-be
insist on allowing all viewpoints to be posted here,
and because the apologists (a tiny handful of
regular posters) won't stop even out of
courtesy.
That's my opinion, and why I hold it.
You are free to disagree.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Never mind. I started to say something, but..............sigh..........it's a waste of breath for me. Nevermind.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Ex10,
frankly, I thought of you more in the majority category,
and Jonny also.
AFAIK, neither of you ever tried to whitewash things.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Yeah whatever, wordwolf, I get sick of the whole discussion. Sorry, I don't mean to offend anybody, I just can't go certain places over and over again. I get tired. So sorry.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
WordWolf,
I always enjoy reading your posts. Your presentations are well thought out and logical. I have learned a lot from you.
Your descriptions of the categoreis are much better than mine.
GSC is a great forum for healing and heated discussions are good.
My concern is for the few posters who strike with venom in many of their posts. I wonder if they have chosen to remain wounded because they cannot or will not face the pain inherent in the healing process. Instead of facing their pain, they spew it outwards onto others in hopes that it will dissipate their inner turmoil. If this is true, and they are stuck in this bitterness, can they ever heal? That is my concern for them, not their group/camp. There seem to be people in this stuck mode which fit into each of the categories you described above.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Ex 10,
You are so refreshing. When things start to heat to a boil, your observations always seem to be on target. Keep "butting in", you're doing a great job.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
suda, sigh.....
Some of the posters here were sexually abused by Way leaders. Please don't judge others by your experience. Thanks for the kudos, but truth be told, many here experienced way bad things at the hands of "way ministers." Sometimes, it gets to be a bit much. Even for me.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
Suda
Ex10,
In this particular thread, the only person I think is striking with venom in ckmkeon. And I feel for him because he does appear to be stuck. He's so confused that he seems incapable of taking in any new information that could help him escape his plight. And the irony of all this, is that ckmkeon is more aligned with camp 1, and it was his bitterness and venom that set me off and prompted my initial post. But I got sidetracked on the war zone between the two camps, and addressed that rather than ckmkeon's refusal to entertain new information and his habit of just striking back with venom.
I know that many posters experienced atrocities at the hands of way ministers and my heart and prayers are with them in their healing process. Although the perpetrators have not acknowledged the he11 they caused in the lives of their victims, other posters here have done so. This validation seems to be helping those who were victimized receive some healing in those areas of their life. For many, it will be a long process, and my prayers will continue to be with them throughout their journey.
Initially, I was confused by your statement "please don't judge others by your own experience". But after re-reading my post, I can understand where you would think that I was addressing those who suffered abuse, when actually I was referring to "Some who are in camp 2 did not suffer abuse, but still have bona fide reasoning for their opinion." It is their dwelling in bitterness that concerns me.
As you can probably tell, I am still in the healing process myself. I have pretty much come to terms with the sorrow I experienced at the "death" of the twi I knew and loved due to the evil pervading the leadership. What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home. I continue to be thankful for the benefits I received from twi, and am confronted with bitterness because of my stance. In my visits to the GSC I have tried to glean information to help me understand the reasons for this bitterness. Some doors of communication have been opened due to my contemplation of the posts here. While mulling over your post tonight, I realized that what prompts me to respond to many posts are the emotions they stir up related to this daily struggle, rather than to the content of the post itself. And because I am reacting to my personal struggle, my comments are misdirected, and, therefore, easily misunderstood. Thank you for helping me to see this. I will try to avoid this in the future.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Well what EVER camp I fall into.... I think an awfull lot of each of you guys. Each and every one of you provide a unique perspective and different piece of the twi puzzle for me.
Thank you all :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
shazdancer
Dear Suda,
You said, "What I struggle with daily is the war zone in my home."
It seems to me that verbal digs and arguments accumulate when each side feels there is a personal stake in their point of view. But the bottom line is, a person can live an ethical and kind life and not profess to believe in PFAL, or even Christianity. Likewise, plenty of people have incorporated what they learned from TWI into a loving lifestyle.
As for me, I HOPE that the Bible is true. I have no proof. Yeah, yeah, "SIT is proof in the senses realm of the internal reality, etc." but if a person believes SIT as practiced by TWI is only some kind of psychological phenomenon, then it isn't proof either. Yet I hope that there is eternal life, and ultimate justice.
I have come to feel that, in this life, it is not so much what I believe or what has happened to me that is important, but rather how I respond to my beliefs and experiences. After all, there is only one now, and the hereafter will have to take care of itself. I no longer think that "the Word is at stake," love is.
Does your belief in following Christ make you a better person? Does Sudo's belief that TWI taught a bunch of malarky make him a better person? (Not trying to trivialize either of you, just trying to abbreviate.) Can you both respect in each other that desire to want to be better? Does that empathy keep the love going?
Both you and Sudo come across on these boards as good and decent people. I hope you can both use what you've learned to respect each other, and grow together in love even as you learn that you don't have to be joined at the hip. "Likeminded" in the importance of your relationship, not necessarily in every point of doctrine.
Thanks for letting me think about where my head is at this point in my life's walk,
Shaz
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WhiteDove
T- I guess that makes you a category 4 - a new one! Been there done that, don't want to do it again and Tired :)
If you would have shelled out the bucks for the T-Shirt you would have been a 4a been there done that ,tired with a cheap souvenir.
LOL now we are categorized just like usages of holy spirit
Gee I can't wait till we get to the sub categories. I hope we get to 8a soon
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
That would be a valid observation if it were not for the fact that the most venemous of posters are, not the ones who were wounded by TWI, but the ones who are in the camp of "TWI was great and so was VPW"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
I'll chime in as a Camp 7c tentant
Never was in TWI under vee pee. Never took PFAL millions of times. Never was raped or abused by vee pee. He was long dead by the time I was introduced to TWI and PFAL.
I WAS abused at the hands of craiggers, his cronies (all former vee pee cronies) and honestly never got a single good thing from my experience with TWI. My stupid decision to get involved and stay involved caused nothing but ruin, havoc and lost dreams in my life.
If vee pee had been stopped. If vee pee hadn't been allowed to flouris. If there had been some way for me to learn about vee pee, the founder of this outfit, I would like to think that I'd be out at the park with my husband, my 2.5 kids, my dog and basking in the love my parents, my grandparents and my family that I would have never put an incredible strain on and hurt so much. :(
If there was any good in vee pee it was not nearly enough to offset the death and destruction in his wake.
IF there was an ounce of altruism in him and his desire to help folks, it wasn't enough because the fruit of his life and his ministry clearly shows me that it wasn't enough and, I think, was totally fake. This man started something evil - something counterfeit that only appeared to be genuine.
ESPECIALLY given the knowledge that he was always a lazy, lying, sneaky, charlatan scamming folks from a child....raping women in a recognizable ethical church....lying that he was kicked out for teaching about money....sorry the bad far outweighs the good in his life (and I'm really not sure about any good being in his life). I think some folks did have good experiences with him personally, but even the devil can appear "nice" when it's in his best interest.
I think anything good that came from someone's involvement with TWI came from the fact that vee pee was able to acquire the assistance from some genuine folks - not because of vee pee or his stolen teachings...
Sorry, this is a real sore spot for me. I don't begrudge anyone's good times and I really do enjoy hearing about those times. I just don't have them and if vee pee had been stopped - if TWI had been stopped by 1993 - my life story would be a whole lot different. I'd like to think better, but it definitely would have been a whole lot different.
It's so hard for me to see any redeeming qualities in that man's life and I sure as heck (not cursing out of respect for the mods :) ) don't believe there were any genuine ones.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
AW, suda. Thank you so much for your patience and graciousness with me. I'm so sorry I misunderstoond your post. After re-reading your words this morning, I had an "aha" moment and think I understand.
Your point of view has been refreshing, and much food for thought. I guess I just don't think of certain posters as coming off as bitter, as much as just plain venting. I've done it a few times myself here, over the years. :)
The internal churning, I understand. Like Shaz said, I don't think it's so much what happens to us that matters, but how we respond to what happens. And it is love that is at stake. There is much wisdom in those words, I think.
Thank you again, for your graciousness and kindness, suda.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
modcat5
I was being rhetorical. "His" has a capital H, so I could only be referring to one Person (or two or three, depending on your theology).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.