VPW from the very inception of his ministry was looking for ways to manipulate the scriptures to fit his way of thinking.
He just searched and searched untill he could find some obscure teacher some where to make things fit the way he thought they oughtta.
'I don`t think he EVER was a genuine christian....one that actually experienced that life changing in spirit action of the new birth......A genuine Christian just simply doesn`t destroy without compunction the way he did....there is something fundamentally different inside that makes such actions abhorrant to a true Christian.
As far as a will to help??? It wasn`t *free sex* of the sixties that caused him to FORCE himself upon our teenaged sisters in the 70s .......it wasn`t not being able to handle the *ego stroking* that inspired him to utterly destroy the life and reputation of the poor 17 yr old girl who refused his attentions ...
It was pure unadulterated EVIL couched in Christian terms and ideas that enabled this man to operate with impunity.
Personally, I think that most people just don`t like to face the fact that we were snookered by the very devil that we thought we were so much smarter than....It is EVER so much nicer to paint a pretty face over the entire picture and pretend that we are all still so speeeecial
Well, I agree to disagree with you Rascal, on a number of points. King David was no Christian, but he was Chosen, and he comitted adultery, and then murdered in order to keep on getting that sweet bootay off of Bathsheba. And he paid dearly. King Saul was a major egotist who caused the death of many of his troops, including Abner, Asahel, and dear son Jonothan. And yet God in His foreknowledge chose him anyway. And Saul never really did repent. As we know, he died bitterly, comitting suicide. Solomon went completely whack over bootay, so much so that his heart was turned away from the one true God, unto the idol gods of the Queen of Sheba. Yes, that was wonderful Solomon, the wisest of the wise who humbly asked God only for wisdom in his early days. I wonder what kind of scandalous talk flew about the Believer community back in those days? None? I doubt that!
And don't get all riled and think that I am saying that VPW was on par with David and Saul. I am not saying that. But I am saying that these wonderful men in the Bible did some similarly heinous things, yet started out as good men.
And dagnabbit, don't misquote me Rascal. I did not say that the women of the Sixties did it to him, caused him to fall. I said that he was too weak to withstand the temptation that came with the sexual revolution of the sixties. When he was a kid, when my Dad was a kid, women wore long dresses way down below their knees, and it was way scandalous when Clark Gable said "Frankly my dear...." Times when they were younguns were prudish by comparison. Then during the late sixties and seventies, our youthful days, the gals were walking around in bra-less halter tops with nipples showing, and cut-off lil Abner blue jeans hung low on their sexy hip bones like today's belly shirts. Like it or not, those things are tempting to a male with a big sex drive. But a man, with character, will not allow himself to succumb, yet VPW did. He flunked that character test to the max. I liked it when someone here shared that Billy Graham has a policy that if ever he is to speak with or counsel a woman in his office, he would make sure that the door was always open, and that there was another man present.
Anyway, we have all had this argument before. Sorry if I did not chime in like most everyone else in aggreement with Zixars original post. I liked his post, but I simply do not agree with all of it. Once again, I do not think VPW started out to decieve in order to "create a money and sex farm". It just ended up that way, as has multitudes of well meaning organizations that have gone before...
I have seen it over and over before in Union politics in which I have been involved. People get involved in order to help, or stop some injustice from continuing. And then, they get on a payroll supplied by the Union Brothers and Sisters, and start trying to iron things out. But then the little perks come along, "doing lunch" with a lobbyist, going on Union business trips that happen to be in Vegas, etc. At first, they are appalled by it, but, after a bit, and a little more compromise, they start to partake of a little more, and then, for "the good of the cause" (which originally was an excellent cause), they too are snorkling around with all of the "glad handers", and others enjoying the fruits of someone elses labor. But they didn't start out that way, they gradually compromised their way into it little bit by little bit. But I will say, and I hope you will agree with me on this: I do not care if they started out honest or not. The end result is just as bad. The final product is just as criminal.
Ya know, once, I was literally offered a woman for sex when I went to HQ to visit there back in '87 or so, and I was married at the time, and Craig knew it. I went to pick up a truck that I'd purchased during the Rock, but had left behind because I had my folks's motor coach during that Rock. And so, I showed up around three weeks after the Rock when they were going to have a bunch of weddings performed that particular weekend. And so, they put me up in one of the HQ grounds unit. John L*nder's as a matter of fact. Hah! And because I was a clergy guy, they assumed I was there to perform a wedding even though I'd told the switchboard person why I was there. Anyway, the Lind*rs were out of town, and so I got their place. So, I put my seabag in my room, and went to walking around grounds and down to the OSC to see who was around, and scare up the guy I bought the truck from. And when I came back around 8:30 p.m. to my unit, I was greeted at the door by this beautiful Italian American girl. Can't remember her name, but she seemed to be in her late twenties. Long brown hair, slender and cute. She opened the door for me, introduced herself and said that she had been assigned to me by Craig as my "guest buddy", and, she said; "I made you a really nice pasta salad that's on the counter, and if there is anything else you might need, a back rub maybe? Just let me know. I'm very good at back rubs. I'll be in the room directly across from yours". And she walked down the hall to her room.
And, I was stunned. She was a beautiful girl, and the implication was really obvious to me about the back rub thing. I had heard about "Headquarters back rubs", getting naked under a towel, the full body massage with the "happy ending", and all of that. I hadn't quite believed my friend who told me about it, but at this moment, I thought that maybe it was true. Weird I am thinking. And so, I dived into the salad, took a shower and went to bed. And then, there came a soft knocking on my door, and when I answered, the girl was standing there in a "nighty thing" like a Teddy, asking me again if there was anything I might need like a back rub or something. And we were all alone! My God! My mind was swirling. Oh yes, temptation was knocking on my door big time. My thoughts were, if you'll excuse the term "epiluo". Oh how I wanted to just let her in and see where things might go! But I was married. I love my wife. But know one will know. A perfect situation. But it's wrong, a sin against my wife and God. But she is so pretty and obviously so willing, for it was written in her eyes as she stood there. All of these thoughts just swimming about in my head. But I looked her in the eyes and told her that; "No, I'm fine, but thank you", hoping that she wouldn't see how shook I was. And then she said; "Well, I just want to be a blessing to you as a man of God". And I told her that she already had been, and goodnight. I could tell by the look in her eyes that she knew that I believed it all wrong, and that she had some shame when I declined.
And so. Did I sleep? Not for a really long time. I kept thinking of the delights beyond that door. All it took was a quick little decision, and certainly God would understand? Kind David had lots of wives and concubines didn't he? And besides, Craig sent her to me, maybe it's okay? But, no, it can't be okay. And, as I thought of it, I could really see the evil designs behind it all. If I had "gone for it", then I too would have been part of the "Club" as Sunesis once called it. And, if as an active member of The Way and a clergy guy who ever called LCM on the carpet for misdeeds, that situation which (thank God I declined), could have been used against me as blackmail. But could I, as one who had started out with a pure and simple heart fallen into that temptation? Heck, according to Jesus's words, I may as well have gone and done it anyway, for I certainly had some vivid mind pictures while laying there in bed thinking about her, comitting adultry in my heart. But, I am proud of the fact that I declined.
But if I hadn't, declined this "favor" I could have begun to travel on down that same slippery slope that took these people (VPW,LCM, and the rest) down to the place where they used and abused people, particularly so many of our wonderful women, even some of you.
Nope I believe ol VPW started out to help, but succumbed to temptation, just like so many others...
Succumbed to temptation? Maybe. I don't know how it started. To me, succumbed to temptation implies that he was the tempted and not the tempter. And maybe that's the case. But it's also likely that he was the initiator from the beginning, the one knocking on her door requesting a backrub. Which is it? I don't know. But I wouldn't discount either scenario.
FIRST off JL, think about it....the people you listed as examples in the scriptures one and ALL were NATURAL men...each and every one of tem lived before the new birth was available...what was expected of them as natural men verses what is expected of a man of spirit is entirely different ...no? Sooo we could quite concievably still be in agreement here ... :)
SECOND of all JL, You being OFFERED sex freely by a peer is an entirely DIFFERENT scenario and has absolutely no bearing on the drugging and rape of teenaged girls by vpw as their minister.
THIRD of all JL, YOU responded apropriatly...YOU found it abhorant to break the vows you made to your wife...which leads me to believe that YOU are probably a genuine Christian that has been changed on the inside with a life impacting new birth that made your integrety and character of more importance than your personal physical satisfaction :)
I believe that vpw believed what he taught, I believe that he believed that he was entitled whatever he wanted regardless of the impact on other lives....I just don`t believe he was a genuine Christian.
I don't think there's any disagreement VP 'screwed up' big time. The disagreement is where some of us are very thankful for the Word heard through the ministry he began.
And I also can't help wondering if there is a little bit of the 'green-eyed monster' because of that word taught, coming from some of a differn't denominational persuasion ?!
I don't think there's any disagreement VP 'screwed up' big time. The disagreement is where some of us are very thankful for the Word heard through the ministry he began.
What's part is true allen? I'm sure you have heard stuff that made you crook your head and say to yourself "That just does not sound right." Don't take those teachings on faith. Sure there was truth taught but some of what you or I may think is truth is just a teaching for thier convienence for money or sex or whatever.
The crap that was taught outta that place destroyed peoples lives....shiver ... I am overwhelmingly thankfull to be free from the bondage of the dogma that masqueraded as *the word* in twi.
yeah, rascal, and i like what you said about knowing something is wrong but justifying doing with the "it doesn't apply to me" attitude. i wish i had a dollar...hehehe...
doesn't the Bible say somewhere in Romans that even the creation is groaning waiting for the sons of God to be manifested or appear? surely, not for them to walk according to the evil one's plan and desires. i think it means that even creation or nature is waiting for mortals to do what is right, God's way, etc., and how refreshing that would be for even the trees and birds and animals and plants and all of the created things--including man.
...not to mention that we have the Holy Spirit inside us to tell us when we're doing right and convict us when we're doing wrong. again, i wish i had a dollar for all of the times i did something i knew was wrong, but ignored that feeling inside and followed vp's analytical stewed-up doctrine instead.
And I also can't help wondering if there is a little bit of the 'green-eyed monster' because of that word taught, coming from some of a differn't denominational persuasion ?!
What do you think salvation is, Allen??
Some sort of market stall trinket that is peddled to the highest bidder, each vendor trying to outdo the other???
Do you really think God, cares how someone hears about Jesus Christ??
Do you really think, true Christians of any denomination don't rejoice that someone is saved no matter where they learned about Christ???
Jealously of the Word being taught, is not, was not, nor never will be the focus of this forum
This forum is about the evils that a twisting of that Word was used to justify.
If you can't see the difference between the two concepts; The Word being taught and the Word being twisted to justify evil then you are for more Waybrained than even I imagined.
Yeah well, I only think that he began to twist it in his later years for his personal gain. You know ...., money, etc. I still think that his initial effort in teaching PFAL was to help people, and not to gain ...., money, and power. PFAL helped me immensely, and I will never recant on that one. For to me to recant would not be sane....
And, did you all know that the moderators have exchanged the word ...., for the word, "wimp"? What a funny way to censor the word "....". Go ahead and type the word "...." correctly, and see what you get. You'[ll get the word "wimp". Weird. Youall are getting way paranoid to censor words like that....
PFAL led me into deliverance., not "cultic blindness" like so many of you are convinced. I will never doubt that...
Nice post Zixar. But, I don't believe PFAL was "bait" for sex and money. I think he started out with a will to help, but then succumbed to the same sinful desires found throughout history, both secular and biblical. And succumb he did. A very common scenario found in the Bible, as well as in politics, etc. He just couldn't handle all of the ego stroking that came with it, as well as the money that came in, and the women. The Sexual Revolution was in full swing by the mid Sixties, and he just plain dived right on in, using the power and status he had gained.
Let's review the order of events.
If Jonny is correct, vpw was ok, then was exposed to the Sexual Revolution,
THEN he started boinking the women and drugging them.
*checks his timeline*
1953,
his "will to help" results in him completely lifting Leonard's class and claiming
it for his own, lying to Leonard AND the students in the process,
all so he can stamp his name on it.
Doesn't sound like exclusively "a will to help" yet...
1953,
his "will to help" resulted in him completely lifting Stiles' book and claiming
it for his own, all so he can stamp his name on it.
Doesn't sound exclusively "a will to help" yet...
1967,
he reads about the Haight-Ashbury Christians at the House of Acts.
He makes a beeline for them, and his descriptions for them emphasize their
lack of hangups. An odd turn of phrase, but technically neither a
smoking gun nor a confession.
What IS a smoking gun was a comment he made to J!m D**p after
drinking, ("en vino, veritas"). He pressed J1m for details about what
it's like to be in an orgy. I'm sure J|m would have forgotten all about that,
except for the comments vpw himself made about that right after
pressing J1m for details, and still on the subject of orgies.
"You know that's all available.
God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said
'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.'
If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage,
God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
So, he already had this attitude when he arrived in California.
Therefore, he didn't arrive at the kids, innocently find a bunch
of horny kids screwing everything in sight, and eventually
have some sort of "lapse of morals" and "fall into sin."
He went there with the specific attitude that sexual sin was
acceptable, and found the audience most likely to be
receptive to it, and he sold them on pfal.
So, then, I ask you,
WHY did he seek out the audience most likely to
be receptive to a "sexual sin is acceptable" audience,
and sell THEM, SPECIFICALLY, on pfal?
Why THEM when he could have sought out ANOTHER
group of kids just as easily?
And why wait until he heard of THEM before trying
to expand to a group of outsiders?
There had been universities all over the country the
entire time he was trying to expand his operations.
He focuse on the sexually-permissive-
or those he perceived to be sexually- permissive.
We know it was not to "cure" them because he did
NOT have classes on that at any time-
not even the CFS was designed for that.
The CFS' most ardent supporters said that the CFS
was designed to make people less self-conscious
about the subject of sex (thus the list of "dirty words".)
And don't get all riled and think that I am saying that VPW was on par with David and Saul. I am not saying that. But I am saying that these wonderful men in the Bible did some similarly heinous things, yet started out as good men.
Jonny... then why do you use them in the comparison? And I know it's not just you, a lot of folks use them in comparison and it does infer comparison to veepee... heck those are the very examples veepee himself used in comparing himself to them to get folks to the point where they thought it acceptable...
And it's one thing to say that you don't think veepee started out with that agenda and another thing to compare him to those men of God... because (IMO) he's not anywhere near their "status"...
I think some people are called to the ministy and some are not.
For example, I am a Christian and I know a bit of scripture. I can even deliver a pretty good sermon -believe it or not. I care about people for the most part. And I think I love God. I want to serve God. So now I decide to go to seminary school and when I graduate, I land a job as a the pastor in a small church in Bubbaland Texas. Was I called to the ministry? Do I necessarily have a gift from God ?
My guess is that VPW, like scores of other Christian ministers & clergy, was not really "called" when he decided to become a minister. By his own admission, VPW was ineffective in Christian service in his early ministry.
VPW may have had a desire to know God, or maybe just took up the ministy as an honorable respected vocation. There is also the possibility he got into for personal gain - could have been a steady paycheck, want of respect and honor - stuff like that. But who can really look back and see VPW's heart when he first entered the ministry? That was before TWI though.
From its inception, TWI was steeped in word-faith theology (name it & claim it) and was centered around a book/class - PFAL, and and a personality, VPW. This speaks loudly to me. It was not the model of the NT church that it supposed itself to be. Not even close.
PFAL promised power and abundance - appealing not to the spiritual but to the fallen nature of people. The central message was not the Gospel of Christ, but one of how to get power, and how to get "stuff" from God. It was about what you could get more than what you could give. Want red drapes? Got em' ! Just follow the formula.
Jesus Christ was relegated to little more than a one time confesion and as a name to use at the end of a prayer. In this effective absence of Christ, the Bible, (but only as interpreted by VPW via PFAL, and by him personally) was what the ministry was centered upon - in effect centering the ministry upon VPW himself. -- "The Teacher". There was no dialog concerning doctrine and practice. VPW was it.
Certainly this is not what Christ intended for His Church . This was not "back to the first century" . Not even close. And this was very early on in TWI - the beginning. This was instead a formula for disaster and a recipe for cultism and its associated abuses.
Yeah sure, we learned some Bible, folks got saved/born again, and some got healed. We had some great and wonderful times too. But are these the criteria for whether not a ministry is of God and the man leading it was truly called to that ministry? - -- I dont think so.
I was hurt to find out about Wierwille's indiscretions, sexual or otherwise later after leaving the ministry. Then the plagiarism was not good news. Found myself defending him only five short years ago when my website went up.
But after checking doctrine, usually to support him, I kind of got a shocker, even if the source was Bullinger or Leonard. So I posted my disagreements in doctrine on the site. Nothing about adultery or plagiarism. Just doctrine.
My friends, most of them also Wierwille followers, cut my wife and I out of their lives. Just for disagreeing with some PFAL material. And these people were ex-members of the Way, some in splinter groups.
Okay. My hands are off. This site is truly dedicated to the destruction of anything good that Victor Paul Wierwille may have done for any people involved. And ya know, for someone who appreciates the good things that he did, I have been very liberal in admitting that he did some very terrible things. I just don't think he was the epitome of evil, as in "Hitleresque" as so many here do. But you know, there are many other sites besides GSpot that believe otherwise, making you all a minority, which makes the rest of us stupid, blind, and "cultists". For some reason, I have liked to come here. But I knew from the start that when I deviated from Zixar's original post that I was in for this. But ya know, I don't care if VPW got his info from BG Leonard, Starr Daly, Oral Roberts and others (people to whom he verbally gave credit in PFAL), he gave the info to me, and it changed my life. I know, I know, I'm just a blinded "denialist", but, that's where I stand. I can't get on your bandwagon and cheer your cheer of "crucify crucify!". I know I would receive lots of "attaboys" like Zixar here has if I did, and get lots of emotional handjobs boosting me in the eyes of y'all, but, it just ain't me. Sorry. I try to look at the whole picture. He (VP) was a man who **** ed up in a big way. But he helped alot of people too. A peculiar legacy, but one that I think is closer to the truth than; "he was a Hitler" from the start...
... And, did you all know that the moderators have exchanged the word ...., for the word, "wimp"? What a funny way to censor the word "....". Go ahead and type the word "...." correctly, and see what you get. You'[ll get the word "wimp". Weird. Youall are getting way paranoid to censor words like that....
That happened on one of my posts too. I used the term .... cat and it came out wimp cat.
Haven't had much time to post this week, but count me in with Johniam, Allan & Jonny Lingo, etc.
Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm the one who misunderstood, BUT, I thought the point Johnny was making was simply that it is possible for men to be "chosen, gifted" whatever you want to call it, and still fail miserably and horribly.
I agree with that point. After all, those men in the OT did have the spirit of God upon them. Just because somebody is "born again" doesn't mean that they are automatically sin-free. Ohmigosh!
We still have the freedom to chose good or evil. There are scads of verses in the NT that address that very issue. There are countless examples throughout Christian history of men who did great things for the Lord, as well as really horrible things. John Calvin comes to mind.l He had people PUT TO DEATH who disagreed with him, for Pete's sake.
"Ministers" fail miserably each and every day. And ususally take alot of good folks down with them.
My opinion, but the "black and white" thinking is dangerous. Like I've said before, I think that the more potential a person has for good, the more destruction and havac they can wreak on innocent, God loving people.
By the way, word wolf, I agree with your last post as well. VPW, in my opinion, did go looking for free sex and tried to find ways to justify it. And I think it started early in his "ministry." From what I've learned in my counseling classes, people with those serious sexual problems are dysfunctional from adolescence pretty much.
Anyway, I am by no means defending VPW and his heinous acts. Just trying to get as true a picture for myself as I can.
PS I don't value much of PFAL "doctrine." But I have been a part of other churches, where I thought the "doctrine" was pretty messed up, yet still people managed to experience transformed lives because of Jesus Christ. TWI was not unique in this way, methinks. PFAL was messed up, alot of it, yet people did benefit from the "truth" that was there. Whether it was a little or alot, I guess is a matter of opinion.
Aw Johnny, just because somebody disagrees with you on some points, doesn't mean your voice isn't appreciated here. :wub: I love what you contribute, if it makes any difference. I mean that.
Goey, I think an interesting point to consider is: What if VPW was "called to the ministry?" I haven't yet decided if I think that or not, the jury is still out for me. But it sure is an interesting point to consider.....Sorta changes the perspective some. I have no problem, personally, with the idea that the Lord Jesus would "call" somebody who is a pretty bad sinner. Seems it's been done a time or two before.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
11
10
11
10
Popular Days
Apr 15
35
Apr 13
34
Apr 14
25
Apr 16
16
Top Posters In This Topic
rascal 11 posts
ex10 10 posts
J0nny Ling0 11 posts
Suda 10 posts
Popular Days
Apr 15 2006
35 posts
Apr 13 2006
34 posts
Apr 14 2006
25 posts
Apr 16 2006
16 posts
rascal
VPW from the very inception of his ministry was looking for ways to manipulate the scriptures to fit his way of thinking.
He just searched and searched untill he could find some obscure teacher some where to make things fit the way he thought they oughtta.
'I don`t think he EVER was a genuine christian....one that actually experienced that life changing in spirit action of the new birth......A genuine Christian just simply doesn`t destroy without compunction the way he did....there is something fundamentally different inside that makes such actions abhorrant to a true Christian.
As far as a will to help??? It wasn`t *free sex* of the sixties that caused him to FORCE himself upon our teenaged sisters in the 70s .......it wasn`t not being able to handle the *ego stroking* that inspired him to utterly destroy the life and reputation of the poor 17 yr old girl who refused his attentions ...
It was pure unadulterated EVIL couched in Christian terms and ideas that enabled this man to operate with impunity.
Personally, I think that most people just don`t like to face the fact that we were snookered by the very devil that we thought we were so much smarter than....It is EVER so much nicer to paint a pretty face over the entire picture and pretend that we are all still so speeeecial
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Well, I agree to disagree with you Rascal, on a number of points. King David was no Christian, but he was Chosen, and he comitted adultery, and then murdered in order to keep on getting that sweet bootay off of Bathsheba. And he paid dearly. King Saul was a major egotist who caused the death of many of his troops, including Abner, Asahel, and dear son Jonothan. And yet God in His foreknowledge chose him anyway. And Saul never really did repent. As we know, he died bitterly, comitting suicide. Solomon went completely whack over bootay, so much so that his heart was turned away from the one true God, unto the idol gods of the Queen of Sheba. Yes, that was wonderful Solomon, the wisest of the wise who humbly asked God only for wisdom in his early days. I wonder what kind of scandalous talk flew about the Believer community back in those days? None? I doubt that!
And don't get all riled and think that I am saying that VPW was on par with David and Saul. I am not saying that. But I am saying that these wonderful men in the Bible did some similarly heinous things, yet started out as good men.
And dagnabbit, don't misquote me Rascal. I did not say that the women of the Sixties did it to him, caused him to fall. I said that he was too weak to withstand the temptation that came with the sexual revolution of the sixties. When he was a kid, when my Dad was a kid, women wore long dresses way down below their knees, and it was way scandalous when Clark Gable said "Frankly my dear...." Times when they were younguns were prudish by comparison. Then during the late sixties and seventies, our youthful days, the gals were walking around in bra-less halter tops with nipples showing, and cut-off lil Abner blue jeans hung low on their sexy hip bones like today's belly shirts. Like it or not, those things are tempting to a male with a big sex drive. But a man, with character, will not allow himself to succumb, yet VPW did. He flunked that character test to the max. I liked it when someone here shared that Billy Graham has a policy that if ever he is to speak with or counsel a woman in his office, he would make sure that the door was always open, and that there was another man present.
Anyway, we have all had this argument before. Sorry if I did not chime in like most everyone else in aggreement with Zixars original post. I liked his post, but I simply do not agree with all of it. Once again, I do not think VPW started out to decieve in order to "create a money and sex farm". It just ended up that way, as has multitudes of well meaning organizations that have gone before...
I have seen it over and over before in Union politics in which I have been involved. People get involved in order to help, or stop some injustice from continuing. And then, they get on a payroll supplied by the Union Brothers and Sisters, and start trying to iron things out. But then the little perks come along, "doing lunch" with a lobbyist, going on Union business trips that happen to be in Vegas, etc. At first, they are appalled by it, but, after a bit, and a little more compromise, they start to partake of a little more, and then, for "the good of the cause" (which originally was an excellent cause), they too are snorkling around with all of the "glad handers", and others enjoying the fruits of someone elses labor. But they didn't start out that way, they gradually compromised their way into it little bit by little bit. But I will say, and I hope you will agree with me on this: I do not care if they started out honest or not. The end result is just as bad. The final product is just as criminal.
Ya know, once, I was literally offered a woman for sex when I went to HQ to visit there back in '87 or so, and I was married at the time, and Craig knew it. I went to pick up a truck that I'd purchased during the Rock, but had left behind because I had my folks's motor coach during that Rock. And so, I showed up around three weeks after the Rock when they were going to have a bunch of weddings performed that particular weekend. And so, they put me up in one of the HQ grounds unit. John L*nder's as a matter of fact. Hah! And because I was a clergy guy, they assumed I was there to perform a wedding even though I'd told the switchboard person why I was there. Anyway, the Lind*rs were out of town, and so I got their place. So, I put my seabag in my room, and went to walking around grounds and down to the OSC to see who was around, and scare up the guy I bought the truck from. And when I came back around 8:30 p.m. to my unit, I was greeted at the door by this beautiful Italian American girl. Can't remember her name, but she seemed to be in her late twenties. Long brown hair, slender and cute. She opened the door for me, introduced herself and said that she had been assigned to me by Craig as my "guest buddy", and, she said; "I made you a really nice pasta salad that's on the counter, and if there is anything else you might need, a back rub maybe? Just let me know. I'm very good at back rubs. I'll be in the room directly across from yours". And she walked down the hall to her room.
And, I was stunned. She was a beautiful girl, and the implication was really obvious to me about the back rub thing. I had heard about "Headquarters back rubs", getting naked under a towel, the full body massage with the "happy ending", and all of that. I hadn't quite believed my friend who told me about it, but at this moment, I thought that maybe it was true. Weird I am thinking. And so, I dived into the salad, took a shower and went to bed. And then, there came a soft knocking on my door, and when I answered, the girl was standing there in a "nighty thing" like a Teddy, asking me again if there was anything I might need like a back rub or something. And we were all alone! My God! My mind was swirling. Oh yes, temptation was knocking on my door big time. My thoughts were, if you'll excuse the term "epiluo". Oh how I wanted to just let her in and see where things might go! But I was married. I love my wife. But know one will know. A perfect situation. But it's wrong, a sin against my wife and God. But she is so pretty and obviously so willing, for it was written in her eyes as she stood there. All of these thoughts just swimming about in my head. But I looked her in the eyes and told her that; "No, I'm fine, but thank you", hoping that she wouldn't see how shook I was. And then she said; "Well, I just want to be a blessing to you as a man of God". And I told her that she already had been, and goodnight. I could tell by the look in her eyes that she knew that I believed it all wrong, and that she had some shame when I declined.
And so. Did I sleep? Not for a really long time. I kept thinking of the delights beyond that door. All it took was a quick little decision, and certainly God would understand? Kind David had lots of wives and concubines didn't he? And besides, Craig sent her to me, maybe it's okay? But, no, it can't be okay. And, as I thought of it, I could really see the evil designs behind it all. If I had "gone for it", then I too would have been part of the "Club" as Sunesis once called it. And, if as an active member of The Way and a clergy guy who ever called LCM on the carpet for misdeeds, that situation which (thank God I declined), could have been used against me as blackmail. But could I, as one who had started out with a pure and simple heart fallen into that temptation? Heck, according to Jesus's words, I may as well have gone and done it anyway, for I certainly had some vivid mind pictures while laying there in bed thinking about her, comitting adultry in my heart. But, I am proud of the fact that I declined.
But if I hadn't, declined this "favor" I could have begun to travel on down that same slippery slope that took these people (VPW,LCM, and the rest) down to the place where they used and abused people, particularly so many of our wonderful women, even some of you.
Nope I believe ol VPW started out to help, but succumbed to temptation, just like so many others...
And now to click post
Edited by Jonny LingoLink to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Succumbed to temptation? Maybe. I don't know how it started. To me, succumbed to temptation implies that he was the tempted and not the tempter. And maybe that's the case. But it's also likely that he was the initiator from the beginning, the one knocking on her door requesting a backrub. Which is it? I don't know. But I wouldn't discount either scenario.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
FIRST off JL, think about it....the people you listed as examples in the scriptures one and ALL were NATURAL men...each and every one of tem lived before the new birth was available...what was expected of them as natural men verses what is expected of a man of spirit is entirely different ...no? Sooo we could quite concievably still be in agreement here ... :)
SECOND of all JL, You being OFFERED sex freely by a peer is an entirely DIFFERENT scenario and has absolutely no bearing on the drugging and rape of teenaged girls by vpw as their minister.
THIRD of all JL, YOU responded apropriatly...YOU found it abhorant to break the vows you made to your wife...which leads me to believe that YOU are probably a genuine Christian that has been changed on the inside with a life impacting new birth that made your integrety and character of more importance than your personal physical satisfaction :)
I believe that vpw believed what he taught, I believe that he believed that he was entitled whatever he wanted regardless of the impact on other lives....I just don`t believe he was a genuine Christian.
Edited by rascalLink to comment
Share on other sites
tonto
But Jonny,
You declined. You did the right thing.
VP didn't. He not only succomed to the temptation, he hand-picked his temptation from his followers.
He even twisted bible verses to make it ok.
Big, big, big, big difference.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
allan w.
I don't think there's any disagreement VP 'screwed up' big time. The disagreement is where some of us are very thankful for the Word heard through the ministry he began.
And I also can't help wondering if there is a little bit of the 'green-eyed monster' because of that word taught, coming from some of a differn't denominational persuasion ?!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
justloafing
What's part is true allen? I'm sure you have heard stuff that made you crook your head and say to yourself "That just does not sound right." Don't take those teachings on faith. Sure there was truth taught but some of what you or I may think is truth is just a teaching for thier convienence for money or sex or whatever.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Jealous??? For WHAT in God`s name???
The crap that was taught outta that place destroyed peoples lives....shiver ... I am overwhelmingly thankfull to be free from the bondage of the dogma that masqueraded as *the word* in twi.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waterbuffalo
yeah, rascal, and i like what you said about knowing something is wrong but justifying doing with the "it doesn't apply to me" attitude. i wish i had a dollar...hehehe...
doesn't the Bible say somewhere in Romans that even the creation is groaning waiting for the sons of God to be manifested or appear? surely, not for them to walk according to the evil one's plan and desires. i think it means that even creation or nature is waiting for mortals to do what is right, God's way, etc., and how refreshing that would be for even the trees and birds and animals and plants and all of the created things--including man.
...not to mention that we have the Holy Spirit inside us to tell us when we're doing right and convict us when we're doing wrong. again, i wish i had a dollar for all of the times i did something i knew was wrong, but ignored that feeling inside and followed vp's analytical stewed-up doctrine instead.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
i do NOT know his original motives or feelings or beliefs
if his preaching teaching brought you to christ, i think that's good
i have a hard time reconciling the damage to my life having known him
but i know people who have brought me much good and much bad. i have a had time figuring it out.
i just wonder (to god, i wonder this) why would i have to pay a hard price when it comes to him....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
What do you think salvation is, Allen??
Some sort of market stall trinket that is peddled to the highest bidder, each vendor trying to outdo the other???
Do you really think God, cares how someone hears about Jesus Christ??
Do you really think, true Christians of any denomination don't rejoice that someone is saved no matter where they learned about Christ???
Jealously of the Word being taught, is not, was not, nor never will be the focus of this forum
This forum is about the evils that a twisting of that Word was used to justify.
If you can't see the difference between the two concepts; The Word being taught and the Word being twisted to justify evil then you are for more Waybrained than even I imagined.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Yeah well, I only think that he began to twist it in his later years for his personal gain. You know ...., money, etc. I still think that his initial effort in teaching PFAL was to help people, and not to gain ...., money, and power. PFAL helped me immensely, and I will never recant on that one. For to me to recant would not be sane....
And, did you all know that the moderators have exchanged the word ...., for the word, "wimp"? What a funny way to censor the word "....". Go ahead and type the word "...." correctly, and see what you get. You'[ll get the word "wimp". Weird. Youall are getting way paranoid to censor words like that....
PFAL led me into deliverance., not "cultic blindness" like so many of you are convinced. I will never doubt that...
Edited by Jonny LingoLink to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
Let's review the order of events.
If Jonny is correct, vpw was ok, then was exposed to the Sexual Revolution,
THEN he started boinking the women and drugging them.
*checks his timeline*
1953,
his "will to help" results in him completely lifting Leonard's class and claiming
it for his own, lying to Leonard AND the students in the process,
all so he can stamp his name on it.
Doesn't sound like exclusively "a will to help" yet...
1953,
his "will to help" resulted in him completely lifting Stiles' book and claiming
it for his own, all so he can stamp his name on it.
Doesn't sound exclusively "a will to help" yet...
1967,
he reads about the Haight-Ashbury Christians at the House of Acts.
He makes a beeline for them, and his descriptions for them emphasize their
lack of hangups. An odd turn of phrase, but technically neither a
smoking gun nor a confession.
What IS a smoking gun was a comment he made to J!m D**p after
drinking, ("en vino, veritas"). He pressed J1m for details about what
it's like to be in an orgy. I'm sure J|m would have forgotten all about that,
except for the comments vpw himself made about that right after
pressing J1m for details, and still on the subject of orgies.
"You know that's all available.
God put it in I Corinthians 7:1 which He said
'It is good for a man not to touch a woman.'
If it wasn't available to have sex outside the marriage,
God would have said 'best' instead of 'good.'"
So, he already had this attitude when he arrived in California.
Therefore, he didn't arrive at the kids, innocently find a bunch
of horny kids screwing everything in sight, and eventually
have some sort of "lapse of morals" and "fall into sin."
He went there with the specific attitude that sexual sin was
acceptable, and found the audience most likely to be
receptive to it, and he sold them on pfal.
So, then, I ask you,
WHY did he seek out the audience most likely to
be receptive to a "sexual sin is acceptable" audience,
and sell THEM, SPECIFICALLY, on pfal?
Why THEM when he could have sought out ANOTHER
group of kids just as easily?
And why wait until he heard of THEM before trying
to expand to a group of outsiders?
There had been universities all over the country the
entire time he was trying to expand his operations.
He focuse on the sexually-permissive-
or those he perceived to be sexually- permissive.
We know it was not to "cure" them because he did
NOT have classes on that at any time-
not even the CFS was designed for that.
The CFS' most ardent supporters said that the CFS
was designed to make people less self-conscious
about the subject of sex (thus the list of "dirty words".)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
And for those that also, with you, received great benefit, I am extremely thankful.
I have myself posted on things I learned in TWI
But JL you have never tried to claim that because you received good there is 1) no evil or 2) those who received only evil are somehow lying
There is a vast difference between your position and the latter
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GarthP2000
Keep in mind, Jonny, that much of PFAL was lifted/borrowed/STOLEN from other classes/ministries.
S-o-o, maybe it wasn't PFAL that helped so much as the information/scriptures that were lifted/borrowed/STOLEN from these other sources.
After all, a thief can give you the correct directions to the airport, ... but he's still a thief.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom Strange
Lingo said:
Jonny... then why do you use them in the comparison? And I know it's not just you, a lot of folks use them in comparison and it does infer comparison to veepee... heck those are the very examples veepee himself used in comparing himself to them to get folks to the point where they thought it acceptable...
And it's one thing to say that you don't think veepee started out with that agenda and another thing to compare him to those men of God... because (IMO) he's not anywhere near their "status"...
Edited by Tom StrangeLink to comment
Share on other sites
Goey
I think some people are called to the ministy and some are not.
For example, I am a Christian and I know a bit of scripture. I can even deliver a pretty good sermon -believe it or not. I care about people for the most part. And I think I love God. I want to serve God. So now I decide to go to seminary school and when I graduate, I land a job as a the pastor in a small church in Bubbaland Texas. Was I called to the ministry? Do I necessarily have a gift from God ?
My guess is that VPW, like scores of other Christian ministers & clergy, was not really "called" when he decided to become a minister. By his own admission, VPW was ineffective in Christian service in his early ministry.
VPW may have had a desire to know God, or maybe just took up the ministy as an honorable respected vocation. There is also the possibility he got into for personal gain - could have been a steady paycheck, want of respect and honor - stuff like that. But who can really look back and see VPW's heart when he first entered the ministry? That was before TWI though.
From its inception, TWI was steeped in word-faith theology (name it & claim it) and was centered around a book/class - PFAL, and and a personality, VPW. This speaks loudly to me. It was not the model of the NT church that it supposed itself to be. Not even close.
PFAL promised power and abundance - appealing not to the spiritual but to the fallen nature of people. The central message was not the Gospel of Christ, but one of how to get power, and how to get "stuff" from God. It was about what you could get more than what you could give. Want red drapes? Got em' ! Just follow the formula.
Jesus Christ was relegated to little more than a one time confesion and as a name to use at the end of a prayer. In this effective absence of Christ, the Bible, (but only as interpreted by VPW via PFAL, and by him personally) was what the ministry was centered upon - in effect centering the ministry upon VPW himself. -- "The Teacher". There was no dialog concerning doctrine and practice. VPW was it.
Certainly this is not what Christ intended for His Church . This was not "back to the first century" . Not even close. And this was very early on in TWI - the beginning. This was instead a formula for disaster and a recipe for cultism and its associated abuses.
Yeah sure, we learned some Bible, folks got saved/born again, and some got healed. We had some great and wonderful times too. But are these the criteria for whether not a ministry is of God and the man leading it was truly called to that ministry? - -- I dont think so.
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
SafariVista
Bingo... there is one of the traps exposed.... Jesus Christ is the way the truth and the life... but NOT in the WAY!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Eagle
Good post.
I was hurt to find out about Wierwille's indiscretions, sexual or otherwise later after leaving the ministry. Then the plagiarism was not good news. Found myself defending him only five short years ago when my website went up.
But after checking doctrine, usually to support him, I kind of got a shocker, even if the source was Bullinger or Leonard. So I posted my disagreements in doctrine on the site. Nothing about adultery or plagiarism. Just doctrine.
My friends, most of them also Wierwille followers, cut my wife and I out of their lives. Just for disagreeing with some PFAL material. And these people were ex-members of the Way, some in splinter groups.
So I didn't know what to say about my friends.
Eagle
Link to comment
Share on other sites
J0nny Ling0
Okay. My hands are off. This site is truly dedicated to the destruction of anything good that Victor Paul Wierwille may have done for any people involved. And ya know, for someone who appreciates the good things that he did, I have been very liberal in admitting that he did some very terrible things. I just don't think he was the epitome of evil, as in "Hitleresque" as so many here do. But you know, there are many other sites besides GSpot that believe otherwise, making you all a minority, which makes the rest of us stupid, blind, and "cultists". For some reason, I have liked to come here. But I knew from the start that when I deviated from Zixar's original post that I was in for this. But ya know, I don't care if VPW got his info from BG Leonard, Starr Daly, Oral Roberts and others (people to whom he verbally gave credit in PFAL), he gave the info to me, and it changed my life. I know, I know, I'm just a blinded "denialist", but, that's where I stand. I can't get on your bandwagon and cheer your cheer of "crucify crucify!". I know I would receive lots of "attaboys" like Zixar here has if I did, and get lots of emotional handjobs boosting me in the eyes of y'all, but, it just ain't me. Sorry. I try to look at the whole picture. He (VP) was a man who **** ed up in a big way. But he helped alot of people too. A peculiar legacy, but one that I think is closer to the truth than; "he was a Hitler" from the start...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
oldiesman
That happened on one of my posts too. I used the term .... cat and it came out wimp cat.
Haven't had much time to post this week, but count me in with Johniam, Allan & Jonny Lingo, etc.
Attaboy Jonny.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Maybe it's just me, and maybe I'm the one who misunderstood, BUT, I thought the point Johnny was making was simply that it is possible for men to be "chosen, gifted" whatever you want to call it, and still fail miserably and horribly.
I agree with that point. After all, those men in the OT did have the spirit of God upon them. Just because somebody is "born again" doesn't mean that they are automatically sin-free. Ohmigosh!
We still have the freedom to chose good or evil. There are scads of verses in the NT that address that very issue. There are countless examples throughout Christian history of men who did great things for the Lord, as well as really horrible things. John Calvin comes to mind.l He had people PUT TO DEATH who disagreed with him, for Pete's sake.
"Ministers" fail miserably each and every day. And ususally take alot of good folks down with them.
My opinion, but the "black and white" thinking is dangerous. Like I've said before, I think that the more potential a person has for good, the more destruction and havac they can wreak on innocent, God loving people.
By the way, word wolf, I agree with your last post as well. VPW, in my opinion, did go looking for free sex and tried to find ways to justify it. And I think it started early in his "ministry." From what I've learned in my counseling classes, people with those serious sexual problems are dysfunctional from adolescence pretty much.
Anyway, I am by no means defending VPW and his heinous acts. Just trying to get as true a picture for myself as I can.
PS I don't value much of PFAL "doctrine." But I have been a part of other churches, where I thought the "doctrine" was pretty messed up, yet still people managed to experience transformed lives because of Jesus Christ. TWI was not unique in this way, methinks. PFAL was messed up, alot of it, yet people did benefit from the "truth" that was there. Whether it was a little or alot, I guess is a matter of opinion.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
God Almight, Jonny,
we're DISAGREEING.
We're not making comments about your mother or wife.
We're not calling for ritual castration or anything,
not even for vpw.
In my case, I provided direct quotes.
How did this become a personal attack on you,
or was the direct quote the blowing out of proportion thing?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Aw Johnny, just because somebody disagrees with you on some points, doesn't mean your voice isn't appreciated here. :wub: I love what you contribute, if it makes any difference. I mean that.
Goey, I think an interesting point to consider is: What if VPW was "called to the ministry?" I haven't yet decided if I think that or not, the jury is still out for me. But it sure is an interesting point to consider.....Sorta changes the perspective some.
I have no problem, personally, with the idea that the Lord Jesus would "call" somebody who is a pretty bad sinner. Seems it's been done a time or two before.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.