To CKMkeon (and other Wierwille defenders), an Open Letter

[Zixar]

Dear CK,

God bless you in the name of Jesus Christ! I read your thread on the persecution of VPW and thought I might give you my particular insight on the matter.

Wierwille was a good salesman. He put on quite a show and convinced many people he was a sincere, godly man with his folksy, grandfatherly manner. Heck, after PFAL finished, I really wished I could have met him, although he had died the month before. The ministry I joined was nothing like the stereotypical "cult". The people in my Twig fellowship were a loving, caring bunch, and pretty much everyone I met was genuinely friendly and pleasant--provided they weren't Way Corps, but that's a different story. When I first got in, my little slice of TWI was pretty much exactly what it was supposed to be all along. I loved it. I moved into a Way home, went WOW the next year, Advanced Class, the works. But the further I moved up the Way Tree, the more problems I started having. Instead of being caring pastors and teachers, they started becoming legalistic bureaucrats.

But I was naive, and chalked it up to people having their strengths and weaknesses, and didn't "think evil" of them--they were supposed to be "men of God" after all.

When the ministry crumbled after the whole 1986 Passing of the Patriarch incident, I blamed Martindale and the others for obviously forgetting what "Doctor" had taught in the class. To me, Wierwille was the good guy, and Martindale had ruined the ministry I had come to love. So, I decided to stand on the "good" that I had been taught and distance myself from a ministry full of rotten leaders. The class had taught me enough to change my life, so it was obviously something to hold on to.

Or so I thought, until 2001.

Prior to then, if someone had said to me, "Martindale got caught sleeping with another man's wife," it would not have surprised me in the slightest. I always thought LCM was a total d1ck. However, when I first heard allegations of Wierwille's sexual abuses, I was in the same state of denial that apparently you and your folks are in. "Nah, couldn't be. Must be some psycho with an axe to grind--trick of the Adversary, possessed, whatever, but not nice ol' Doc Wierwille!"

But then I came to the forerunner of GSC, a site called Waydale. I met people who had actually known and worked with Wierwille for years, and the story was all the same--sweet & nice for the cameras, controlling and abusive backstage. Then the horrible truth came out--there were actual victims of Wierwille's sex abuse here, as well as those with friends and family members who had been abused. They weren't psychotic, they weren't rabid deprogramming freaks, they were actual women who told the same story--of how VPW would get women alone, mostly in his motorcoach, and then coerce them into having sex with him.

Now, even in the most generous benefit of the doubt, perhaps Wierwille's sexual appetites could be labeled an "addiction" or some sort of affliction he couldn't help--even though that would not excuse it in the least. The problem is that it wasn't confined to him--he TAUGHT his senior leaders that it was justifiable to commit adultery. That is where he loses all possible slack from anyone. When one man's immoral "weakness" becomes ministry dogma, that ministry is no longer following the true God.

"Well, what about the good things he taught? Even if he was a predator, surely that doesn't negate the Bible he taught, right?"

Wrong.

In order for Wierwille to do what he did, he had to set the stage in PFAL. He got everyone hooked with his "look it up if you don't believe me" preaching that most people just started taking his word for things and not noticing the curve balls he was sailing over the plate. One of the glaring errors was his statement that the Bible said "every woman belonged to the King"--which it simply does NOT say, anywhere, nor does it imply anything of the sort. But we all just let it slip, 'cause, hey, it's VPW, and he wouldn't lie to us, right?

Sure he would. He lied to us from the COVER of the orange book. It has been documented that many of the things Wierwille claimed he wrote were in fact taken from other authors' works, notably B.G. Leonard, Kenyon, and E.W. Bullinger. So, while there may have been some wonderful insight included in PFAL, an honest researcher would have quoted his sources--and he didn't. He took credit for it all. So, to paraphrase Wierwille himself, if he lied to us here, we might as well chuck the whole thing away. He practiced error, but what's much worse, he taught error. PFAL itself showed what happened to the early church when that happened--and yet none of us believed HE would ever do such a thing.

You don't have to stop believing in God, nor even stop studying His Word--even if you use what VPW taught in PFAL to do so. But you might want to look really closely at what Jesus actually taught about forgiveness. He was really kind and loving--except when it came to false teachers. Jesus was pretty harsh on them--"better a millstone be hung around his neck and cast into the sea" than to lead astray. Jesus forgave the woman taken in adultery, and he may have forgiven Wierwille his countless adulteries, but when a minister uses his position to violate a follower, (that's not mere adultery, that's tantamount to rape,) and when he knowingly teaches error to others, odds are that that guy is going to wind up in the millstone line.

Please don't be put off by some of the negative responses you've gotten here, but please also understand that some of the posters here are much closer to the horrors of TWI (especially the legalistic Gestapo-like nightmare it became in the 90s) and are understandably less-than-cordial to newcomers who would defend VPW without knowing the full story. There is plenty of eyewitness testimony to be had here, though. Get to know these folks, and be respectful of their positions, even if you don't agree with them. You'll at least have a better foundation on which to judge your opinions of V.P. Wierwille then.

God bless!

Zixar

[dmiller]

Wooooo!! Excellent!!

[Kevlar2000]

Well said, Zixar. And nice to "see" you again!

[TheEvan]

Nice to see you here Zix. Yes, your post is very fine.

[Rejoice]

It wasn't just WayDale and GSC that exposed TWI.

Rev John Juedes had been tracking them for over 20 years on empire.net and writing about all things affected by TWI including the offshoots that evolved.

Here's his newest home page:

http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/Homex.html

[markomalley]

Nice letter Zixar!

Too bad it won't do any good.

[ex10]

Sure is nice to see you here again, Zix!!! :wub:

[igotout]

Hi Zixar. How are you? I think it will do some good. Well written

John Richeson

[templelady]

Beautifully said, thank you

[dmiller]

Nice letter Zixar!

Too bad it won't do any good.

And then again it may.

After all -- we all grew out of an experience/ cult/ etc. also, eh?

Why deny the chance to others?? :)

[CM]

Good to hear from you Zixar

Edited April 12, 2006 by CM

[SafariVista]

Wonderful letter Zixar!

There were all kinds of teachings for TWI men to abuse their women too...

What a messed up bunch of guys

[johniam]

There's no "millstone line" in the grace administration. It's funny. Certain of my old man friends always used to refer to religion in general derogatorily as a "crutch". But really, a crutch is merely a prop used by people who can't walk with their natural strength. God's grace is like that.

Undeserved favor, remember? No one can walk pleasing to God with their natural strength. No, not even Mother Teresa. Jesus said no one born of a woman was as good as John the Baptist, yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. So there is actually some individual who is least in the kingdom of heaven. Maybe it's VP. Maybe it's me. Either way, there ain't no millstone line. You don't think the Body of Christ is in the kingdom of heaven?

[penguin]

Johniam,

The more I consider the "grace administration" and the fact that the gospels are conveniently left out of it, the more I think vpw had to teach this in order to justify some of his behaviors. Even in the grace administration we will face the bema--a judgement seat. Even the epistles mention our works having to stand up to the fire. Sure its grace for those of us who truly ask forgiveness and repent--but I am sure we will still have to answer for ourselves. I am not saying we need to make it into heaven/paradise whatever on our own merit-I am just saying we may have some serious talking tos before we enter.

Anyway Zix--great post!! Sorry for a derail

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

zix

no one have could have said it better

that was wonderful!

[Zixar]

There's no "millstone line" in the grace administration.

I seem to recall a line in PFAL about figures of speech being used to emphasize or illustrate a point. Then again, something else takes the place of the absent Christ in this "administration", so who cares what he said anyway, right? I mean, since the Gospels are in the Old Testament, they're just "for our learning", which means we get to pick and choose what we want to believe from them and conveniently toss the rest when it doesn't support our pre-decided rightly-divided interpretations of the Bible.

[diazbro]

There's no "millstone line" in the grace administration. It's funny. Certain of my old man friends always used to refer to religion in general derogatorily as a "crutch". But really, a crutch is merely a prop used by people who can't walk with their natural strength. God's grace is like that.

Undeserved favor, remember? No one can walk pleasing to God with their natural strength. No, not even Mother Teresa. Jesus said no one born of a woman was as good as John the Baptist, yet he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. So there is actually some individual who is least in the kingdom of heaven. Maybe it's VP. Maybe it's me. Either way, there ain't no millstone line. You don't think the Body of Christ is in the kingdom of heaven?

I love it John. You are getting back to your old self.

[rascal]

I find it astonishing that someone could summarily dismiss Jesus`s clear words and warnings, john ...You presume to be a Christian but rationalise a way to reject the very words Jesus Christ spoke ....go figure

I suppose that is the whole trouble with twi teachings....the idea that ...... well ....YEAH...the bible DOES clearly say that...but it certainly doesn`t mean ME!

[ckmkeon]

I will let you in on a little piece of info

.. Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

While I see the life long story you laid out about starting in the way going through the tree etc. The reason I put The Persecution of VPW together is because the poster's here like destroying people. It would be like a republican walking into a democrats party office. The people hear except for a few think that since DR. wierwille "Might" have done bad things, that he could not teach either. So thank you for your thread addressed to me but it does not help. You can ask alot of people here I will not change

GodBless

CK

[dmiller]

Ck -- Head for the horizion. It's out there. We found it, and I hope you do too.

God bless, and take care. :)

David

[skyrider]

I will let you in on a little piece of info

.. Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

Or......"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."

.....'cept after about 25 years of life's experiences, one does have a tendency to CHANGE his opinion. Happens all the time.

[Belle]

.....exactly what I was thinking, Skyrider.

(((((Zixar))))) soooooo good to see you back!!!! Perfect - absolutely perfect post!!!

[Goey]

"... The reason I put The Persecution of VPW together is because the poster's here like destroying people."

Wierwille destroyed people. I doubt he actually liked doing it though. He just didn't care. Exposing Wierwille/ LCM/ TWI only destroys the false images that certain folks have of them. The truth hurts sometimes. Makes you want to close your eyes.

The people hear except for a few think that since DR. wierwille "Might" have done bad things, that he could not teach either.

Wrong. He was a good teacher a lot of the time. He could sexually abuse a young woman and then shortly afterwards pull of a pretty good teaching. Truly a man worth putting upon a high pedestal.

So thank you for your thread addressed to me but it does not help. You can ask alot of people here I will not change

Ignorance is bliss.

[Zixar]

I will let you in on a little piece of info

.. Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

While I see the life long story you laid out about starting in the way going through the tree etc. The reason I put The Persecution of VPW together is because the poster's here like destroying people. It would be like a republican walking into a democrats party office. The people hear except for a few think that since DR. wierwille "Might" have done bad things, that he could not teach either. So thank you for your thread addressed to me but it does not help. You can ask alot of people here I will not change

GodBless

CK

It's sad that you cannot see the irony inherent in your first sentence. I certainly didn't want to hear that the ministry I thought was different really was just another of the Jimmy Swaggart/Jim Bakker/David Koresh fronts for the sexual gratification of its leadership.

I guess the real question you have to ask yourself is if you had lived 20 years ago, and Doctor Wierwille had you alone in his motorcoach, telling you that you were "spiritually advanced" enough to commit adultery with him, would you believe him? Would you blindly follow him regardless of what he said then?

Something you may not be aware of was that back around the same timeframe, John Schoenheit, a member of the TWI Research Department, wrote a paper on what the Word says about adultery (which is pretty plain to see--there is not one recorded case of adultery ever being condoned, regardless of which spiritual leader it was). Instead of it being lauded and published in The Way Magazine as the latest triumph in TWI Research, the man was hounded from the ministry, accused of being possessed--and anyone who so much as admitted they'd READ the paper was booted, too.

The text of the paper is here on GS, I believe. Go read it. This man worked side by side with Dr. Wierwille and Walter Cummins for many years in the Research Department and contributed major portions of research to books like Jesus Christ Our Passover and Jesus Christ Our Promised Seed. He knew what he was talking about, and plainly documented all of the verses, in best Wierwillian form.

Now, it used to be that if the ministry had taught something one way, and discovered they were wrong later, they'd change the teaching. I liked that. (For example, prior to 1980, they taught that the Star of Bethlehem was something different, until Earnest Martin published The Birth of Christ Recalculated which demonstrated the September 11, 3 BC date used in JCOPS.) If the leadership were practicing error due to wrong believing, this adultery paper should have served as the "correctional epistle", even though it wouldn't have undone the wrongs of the past. It's the Word, after all, as VPW used to say, and arguing with the Word is pointless. But the ones with their hands in the cookie jar wouldn't drop the cookies. They didn't want to get in alignment and harmony with the Word, so they buried the paper and disgraced the author.

This was the monster that VPW had created by his own foolish lusts. When the people are no longer led by godly leaders, they are drinking at broken cisterns that can hold no water. It should never have happened--if PFAL was as theopneustos as we thought it was. But it wasn't, and isn't.

Believing in God and His Word is a good, noble endeavor. Blindly following a man's ministry that has been demonstrated to be the foundation of error is not. Even as VPW used to say, the truth needs no defense. Question it all, hold fast to that which is good. But in order to rightly-divide anything, you have to be willing to accept answers you don't like if they're the truth. The adultery paper is an excellent place to start. See if you can find any place that Schoenheit missed that actually condones adultery in the Word. If you can't, open your ears to these women. They have no reason to lie about this. They, too, just like you, would have followed Victor Paul Wierwille into hell itself--until the day they followed him into his motorcoach.

The GreaseSpotters can be a cranky, opinionated bunch, that's true, and I'm certainly no exception. But the reason we're so hard on defenders of TWI is that we ALL were once as thoroughly and throughly convinced we were absolutely right as you are, and it took some very hard lessons learned to rip off the blinders we had smilingly allowed to be bolted to our heads.

Loosen your bolts. You don't have to start believing in the trinity or anything, but you do have to realize that "God" is not spelled "vee pee double-ew".

God bless you,

Zix

[doojable]

QUOTE(ckmkeon @ Apr 12 2006, 06:19 PM)

I will let you in on a little piece of info

.. Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

The saddest little piece of info here is that you do not know how to keep things in context. Even sadder is that this was one of the GOOD, CORRECT, things that VPW taught. And you can't even seem to grasp the basics of his teachings. You are speaking from ignorance. You came here looking for only what you wanted to find, not the truth. SAD. Very, very SAD.

Here are the lyrics to the opening lines form "the Boxer" by Paul Simon - which you have been so fond of quoting.

I am just a poor boy, though my story's seldom told.

I have squandered my resistance,

For a pocketful of mumbles, such are promises.

All lies and jest.

Still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.

The person in this song says that he "SQUANDERED his resistance for a pocketful of promises - all lies and jest...yadda, yadda, yadda..

So the song you are so fond of quoting actually makes OUR point for us better than it serves you.

We are talking about the fact that at one time WE DID hear what we wanted to hear - and disregarded the rest. We only heard the "promises of a more abundant life," and we tried to look past the evils we saw.

So what are YOUR pocketful of promises that you are disregarding the rest for?????

Have to think about that. don't ya'?