I didn't 'hear' her saying that... and I thought her post (right above) was pretty well thought out and interesting... have you read it? what are your thoughts on THE POST?
Mo, if you were in twi and never heard it taught that there is no trinity
Allan I am going to get you your own private fruit bowl
Apples:
trinity (lower case). A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
Oranges:
The Trinity (upper case) In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine
While I don't believe in The Trinity, there is definitley a trinity.
holy spirit is no more than Gods' active force, not a distinct person,
As I pointed out before, the TWI I was in never said there was no Holy Spirit quite the opposite. The argument was VPW trying to prove that the Holy Spirit of the gifts of the Holy Spirit was holy spirit. He went to great lengths to differentiate between the two-he never said Holy Spirit didn't exist.In fact, in the teaching above where he used the Baptism of Christ to support JCING he made the point that there were three distinct beings. Can't have it both ways, can't have three beings one day and the two beings the next day as you willy nilly try to justify your latest "present truth"
Believe as you will, VPWs posiition on this subject is not based on scripture, not by his own rules [one time, two times, three times, clear vs unclear verses, figures of speech etc]much less mine.
Please remember to read the context when quoting me!
I said,
Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again.
While in twi we were still very "me" centered.
In this case I was not referring to not reaching out and helping others--because you are right we were always busy doing what twi told us would help people.
My point was that our beliefs put most of the pressure on us to perform:
1. It was our believing that got focused on--not God's trustworthiness
2. We took the place of Jesus Christ so we didn't really have a relationship with him-we were filling in for him instead.
3. We told God what we wanted Him to do and often demanded it--like we knew what was best for us.
Those are just 3 examples of what I meant by me-centered. Of course this was more the 1990's and 2000 something emphasis so maybe you may not have experienced this.
If I'm not mistaken...didn't Wierwille compare the "gift of holy spirit" to a car battery?
Twi's teachings clearly taught that the gift of holy spirit was an "it"...
Twi taught that God (who was Holy Sprit) sent the gift of holy spirit into the person who believed in Rom 10:9,10...incorruptible seed...like some kind of "spiritual sperm" that became a part of the recipient...
...that seed (holy spirit), was incorporated into every cell of the recipient which made him a "3 part" being...body soul and spirit...
I'm not taking any position on this...just explaining what twi taught.
Twi taught that God (who was Holy Spirit) sent the gift of holy spirit into the person who believed in Rom 10:9,10...incorruptible seed...like some kind of "spiritual sperm" that became a part of the recipient...
...that seed (holy spirit), was incorporated into every cell of the recipient which made him a "3 part" being...body soul and spirit...
it's coming back I had long ago left THE Trinity behind. But even though I understood THE Trinity to be wrong I never lost the knowledge that there was a trinity.
When things got too disjointed in TWI teachings I ended up with severe headaches, happened a lot (happens sometimes on these boards when reading some posters more outlandish ideas). I can only conclude that the Holy Spirit is protecting me.
VPW's position on the Holy Spirit is not supported by scripture, he did a complete rewrite, and so was born AOS and "seed boy". And if nothing else could persuade you of the error of this pernicious doctrine, that "production" should
NO, I'll take my Holy Spirit, my protector and Comforter, as he is, and I'll worship my Heavenly Father in His Son Jesus Christ's name, a glorious trinity which feels my life, with joy, peace, and purpose.
No...what Groucho said WAS what was taught..It It It It, not a him or a her but IT referring to the gift, the hs, the car battery whatever. That is what was taught...geeesh, never mind, now I've got a headache. Hang on, maybe it's the holy spirit protecting me this time ??!!
Neither of those two instances indicates a person, though it DOES indicate an entity
OK I'll agree that it is an entity, I can live with that
Maybe, because I always knew that God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit were separate entities, I just ignored the scripturally unsound bits. TWI wasn't as invasive as it became later, so you could keep your mouth shut and not make waves and believe what the Bible said.
On my side of the fence
Four cases of Jesus Christ referring to The Holy Spirit as the Comforter and "he"
Four cases of The Holy Spirit descending in the shape of a dove while Christ stands in a river and God speaks from Heaven
Eight Cases of Filled with the Holy Ghost"
On VPWs side
his unique interpretation of the gifts of the Spirit not being The Holy Spirit but holy spirit. Which interpretation requires ignoring the 16 cases cited above and several others.
ONE instance of the phrase "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" and he had to take that out of context to make it say what he wanted
His denial of the Holy Spirit as a separate entity
For me this has ceased to be a doctrinal issue as much as a "VPW did this of for what" issue??
Why does it matter if the Holy Spirit is a separate indwelling entity or if it is God's Spirit.
It only matters if VPW saw the difference between:
Holy Spirit (separate entity), a conscience and gentle guide for us(in my case sometimes not so gently)leading us in right paths, providing comfort and support and spiritual gifts, as our walk continues down right paths, that enable us to transcend what is possible on an earthly plane
or
holy spirit, a onetime gift that automatically provides the receiver with "all nine all the time', thus removing good conduct as a requirement for receiving and keeping said gifts
I think about PFAL and the more I see and am reminded of these kinds of twisted teachings, along with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight , the more I come to believe that VPWs primary goal was not so much teaching the Bible as it was in figuring out how to get scripture to say what he needed it to say to justify his behavior: behavior which other threads have shown to be of long standing and in place before PFAL was ever conceived
When Saddam Hussein used to win elections by a 99% margin, nobody bought it. It's absurd to think 100% of registered voters all voted and voted for the same guy. Clearly it's a lie.
Yet we believed that PFAL was great as evidenced by the fact that 90% (my made up figure but you get the point) of PFAL grads SIT'd. I can't think of one class where a student didn't SIT. There were some close calls but they almost always SIT'd eventually. That simply cannot be the case. There had to be some faking going on, but you never heard anyone say it. Even tho many of us (including myself) were faking it, did we somehow think we were the only one faking it? This is how I know brainwashing is real. It's unreasonable to think everyone could SIT after the class, it's even more unreasonable that so many faked it but didn't suspect others of faking it. How absurd.
Also, if so many people were faking it, how come not ONE leader got the revelation? Not one leader was "walking"? With the amount of fakers out there, this should have been a major issue, a scandal even.
No one could sniff out the frauds because they were fakingit too and/or they were afraid of the truth. They, like most of us, would rather have lived in our own made up spiritual utopia where we know God better than anyone.
It's infuriating the amount of crap i fell for! even fell for my own lies. I used to write elaborate words of propphecy. people used to comment on how in tune with God i was, especially because I was a teen. I knew I was faking it, yet I believed the hype about how spiritual i was. It's embarresing! I'm just not that dishonest now that Ive been out of TWI for so long. Funny how that happens.
I speak in tongues these days and speak by words of prophecy with word of knowledge showing me things I could of never research enough to see and receiving words wisdom to speak or write down seem to guide me in my life
I have replace that fear to do it with trust that Christ is giving me every word if I just open my mouth to speak or open my voice in my head to hear Christ speak
When I was in the way it was short but now because I am still reaching for truth I can get long winded
And I know its real but this is something you can only prove in your heart
because even if I spoke the tongue of people from Mars and a person from Mars landed in a space ship most would call it a TV add
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I didn't 'hear' her saying that... and I thought her post (right above) was pretty well thought out and interesting... have you read it? what are your thoughts on THE POST?
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templelady
Apples:
trinity (lower case). A group consisting of three closely related members. Also called triunity.
Oranges:
The Trinity (upper case) In most Christian faiths, the union of three divine persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one God. Also called Trine
While I don't believe in The Trinity, there is definitley a trinity.
As I pointed out before, the TWI I was in never said there was no Holy Spirit quite the opposite. The argument was VPW trying to prove that the Holy Spirit of the gifts of the Holy Spirit was holy spirit. He went to great lengths to differentiate between the two-he never said Holy Spirit didn't exist.In fact, in the teaching above where he used the Baptism of Christ to support JCING he made the point that there were three distinct beings. Can't have it both ways, can't have three beings one day and the two beings the next day as you willy nilly try to justify your latest "present truth"
Believe as you will, VPWs posiition on this subject is not based on scripture, not by his own rules [one time, two times, three times, clear vs unclear verses, figures of speech etc]much less mine.
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penguin
OM
Please remember to read the context when quoting me!
I said,
In this case I was not referring to not reaching out and helping others--because you are right we were always busy doing what twi told us would help people.
My point was that our beliefs put most of the pressure on us to perform:
1. It was our believing that got focused on--not God's trustworthiness
2. We took the place of Jesus Christ so we didn't really have a relationship with him-we were filling in for him instead.
3. We told God what we wanted Him to do and often demanded it--like we knew what was best for us.
Those are just 3 examples of what I meant by me-centered. Of course this was more the 1990's and 2000 something emphasis so maybe you may not have experienced this.
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GrouchoMarxJr
If I'm not mistaken...didn't Wierwille compare the "gift of holy spirit" to a car battery?
Twi's teachings clearly taught that the gift of holy spirit was an "it"...
Twi taught that God (who was Holy Sprit) sent the gift of holy spirit into the person who believed in Rom 10:9,10...incorruptible seed...like some kind of "spiritual sperm" that became a part of the recipient...
...that seed (holy spirit), was incorporated into every cell of the recipient which made him a "3 part" being...body soul and spirit...
I'm not taking any position on this...just explaining what twi taught.
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templelady
it's coming back I had long ago left THE Trinity behind. But even though I understood THE Trinity to be wrong I never lost the knowledge that there was a trinity.
When things got too disjointed in TWI teachings I ended up with severe headaches, happened a lot (happens sometimes on these boards when reading some posters more outlandish ideas). I can only conclude that the Holy Spirit is protecting me.
VPW's position on the Holy Spirit is not supported by scripture, he did a complete rewrite, and so was born AOS and "seed boy". And if nothing else could persuade you of the error of this pernicious doctrine, that "production" should
NO, I'll take my Holy Spirit, my protector and Comforter, as he is, and I'll worship my Heavenly Father in His Son Jesus Christ's name, a glorious trinity which feels my life, with joy, peace, and purpose.
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allan w.
No...what Groucho said WAS what was taught..It It It It, not a him or a her but IT referring to the gift, the hs, the car battery whatever. That is what was taught...geeesh, never mind, now I've got a headache. Hang on, maybe it's the holy spirit protecting me this time ??!!
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dmiller
Allan --- cool it, please. Sarcasm never gets anyone anywhere. :)
Mo -- TWI has always taught that there is no trinity.
(TWI in caps and bold to keep this here, and not doctrinal.)
So -- my question is -- why can't the Comforter be spirit born within man??
Why does it have to be a person?
While I do not support TWI, I do support the idea that Jesus was a man.
When He was baptized -- He received spirit upon Him -- just like the OT folks.
He did not receive the gift of holy spirit as those on Pentecost did.
It wasn't *AVAILABLE* at that time -- so He got just as good as the *men and women of God*
got in the OT, with the exception that He got it without measure.
It was *upon Him* -- not *within*.
Believing Jesus to be a human being (like you and I), I have no problem with this.
No -- there was no 3rd person of a trinity descending.
The gift of holy spirit did come in the form of a dove.
Later it came as tongues of fire.
Neither of those two instances indicates a person, though it DOES indicate an entity. :)
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templelady
OK I'll agree that it is an entity, I can live with that
Maybe, because I always knew that God, Jesus Christ, and The Holy Spirit were separate entities, I just ignored the scripturally unsound bits. TWI wasn't as invasive as it became later, so you could keep your mouth shut and not make waves and believe what the Bible said.
On my side of the fence
Four cases of Jesus Christ referring to The Holy Spirit as the Comforter and "he"
Four cases of The Holy Spirit descending in the shape of a dove while Christ stands in a river and God speaks from Heaven
Eight Cases of Filled with the Holy Ghost"
On VPWs side
his unique interpretation of the gifts of the Spirit not being The Holy Spirit but holy spirit. Which interpretation requires ignoring the 16 cases cited above and several others.
ONE instance of the phrase "which is Christ in you, the hope of glory" and he had to take that out of context to make it say what he wanted
His denial of the Holy Spirit as a separate entity
For me this has ceased to be a doctrinal issue as much as a "VPW did this of for what" issue??
Why does it matter if the Holy Spirit is a separate indwelling entity or if it is God's Spirit.
It only matters if VPW saw the difference between:
Holy Spirit (separate entity), a conscience and gentle guide for us(in my case sometimes not so gently)leading us in right paths, providing comfort and support and spiritual gifts, as our walk continues down right paths, that enable us to transcend what is possible on an earthly plane
or
holy spirit, a onetime gift that automatically provides the receiver with "all nine all the time', thus removing good conduct as a requirement for receiving and keeping said gifts
I think about PFAL and the more I see and am reminded of these kinds of twisted teachings, along with the benefit of 20/20 hindsight , the more I come to believe that VPWs primary goal was not so much teaching the Bible as it was in figuring out how to get scripture to say what he needed it to say to justify his behavior: behavior which other threads have shown to be of long standing and in place before PFAL was ever conceived
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allan w.
Um aah er.................never mind !!
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Georgio Jessio
A couple of thoughts.
When Saddam Hussein used to win elections by a 99% margin, nobody bought it. It's absurd to think 100% of registered voters all voted and voted for the same guy. Clearly it's a lie.
Yet we believed that PFAL was great as evidenced by the fact that 90% (my made up figure but you get the point) of PFAL grads SIT'd. I can't think of one class where a student didn't SIT. There were some close calls but they almost always SIT'd eventually. That simply cannot be the case. There had to be some faking going on, but you never heard anyone say it. Even tho many of us (including myself) were faking it, did we somehow think we were the only one faking it? This is how I know brainwashing is real. It's unreasonable to think everyone could SIT after the class, it's even more unreasonable that so many faked it but didn't suspect others of faking it. How absurd.
Also, if so many people were faking it, how come not ONE leader got the revelation? Not one leader was "walking"? With the amount of fakers out there, this should have been a major issue, a scandal even.
No one could sniff out the frauds because they were fakingit too and/or they were afraid of the truth. They, like most of us, would rather have lived in our own made up spiritual utopia where we know God better than anyone.
It's infuriating the amount of crap i fell for! even fell for my own lies. I used to write elaborate words of propphecy. people used to comment on how in tune with God i was, especially because I was a teen. I knew I was faking it, yet I believed the hype about how spiritual i was. It's embarresing! I'm just not that dishonest now that Ive been out of TWI for so long. Funny how that happens.
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year2027
God first
Beloved all
God loves you my dear friend
I speak in tongues these days and speak by words of prophecy with word of knowledge showing me things I could of never research enough to see and receiving words wisdom to speak or write down seem to guide me in my life
I have replace that fear to do it with trust that Christ is giving me every word if I just open my mouth to speak or open my voice in my head to hear Christ speak
When I was in the way it was short but now because I am still reaching for truth I can get long winded
And I know its real but this is something you can only prove in your heart
because even if I spoke the tongue of people from Mars and a person from Mars landed in a space ship most would call it a TV add
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowning your way Roy
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