a punctuation mark { : } used after a word introducing a series or an example or an explanation a colon is used to connect complete thoughts; a colon emphasizes the second thought
[10]To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man severally as he will.
dmiiller brought up a point -but let's not try and pick and choose which punctuation we like and which we don't -since punctuation was added after the fact, lets take it all out, along with the verse breaks: and we have
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit to another faith by the same Spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
By doing that you end up with exactly what every scholar but VPW agree is the correct translation
Lets be clear here I am not saying that all nine don't exist
I am not saying that no one received and uses all nine
What I am saying is that all "nine all the time" is not an absolute for everyone like VPW tried to make it sound
If you received all nine gifts and use them or know others who did and do I am truly happy for them and you
But, please please stop holding out the banner that says everyone got all nine and if they don't know that they are stupid , or not really trying, or their believing is off, or any of the other phraseology designed to tell others that we are inferior in our spiritual walk
And that what was done in TWI to hundreds of people and that is what is still being done on these boards. It is untrue and hurtful, bringing no peace to the recipients.
It shows those who are recipients of all nine to be braggarts, and scorners of their less gifted brethren, which I find an odd stance for persons who claim to have received so much at the hands of the Holy Spirit
For to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
Okay capitals taken out
But it still comes to the same thing these are GIFTS given and the giver decides who gets what when.
The recipient of a gift doesn't get to demand what gift the giver gives,. that's why it's called a gift instad of an entitlement
And as for it being one gift--sorry that doesn't work either--if it was just one gift it wouldn't be referred to as separate gifts not only here but elsewhere.
I guess what I don't understand is why is it so important for you who believe "all nine all the time" to keep insisting that the rest of us are somehow deficient in our relationship to God. Why can't you just rejoice in the fact that you have all nine and let the rest of us rejoice in the ones we have??
I guess what I don't understand is why is it so important for you who believe "all nine all the time" to keep insisting that the rest of us are somehow deficient in our relationship to God. Why can't you just rejoice in the fact that you have all nine and let the rest of us rejoice in the ones we have??
from Allan ---
That is why I still believe that every b/a Christian has the ability to manifest. Yes , some are better at some manif/ gifts than others, yet all have the ability.
Mo --- :) If I recollect correct -- docvic taught that the *to one* referred
back to the profit (mentioned in verse 7), not the person involved.
Now without getting into all that, I would like to say that I think you have
misunderstood the side of the fence that Allan and I are both coming from.
Both of us have said that all folks (born again) have the ABILITY to operate all nine,
because if one is born again -- then spirit resides within, and the ability is enabled.
I'm thinking you thought we said that all should HAVE ALL NINE, all the time.
I know I never said that, and I doubt if Allan did either.
We both (however) HAVE SAID *gift of spirit* equals *ability*.
And there is a huge difference there.
If you feel you have SOME *gifts* (as you call them) --
then I am convinced you have THE GIFT -- which is holy spirit.
And if you (or anyone else) has THE GIFT, then far be it from me to say that ---
I'm better than you, or vice versa because of how we each choose to run our lives.
Not being a newbie here, it's interesting reading, thanks for the sharing.
"Mannies" are a beautiful thing, as I've seen them. Faking them wouldn't be the right thing to do, of course. They're either there or they aren't. I can see the pressure causing people to want to "do" them to go along with the whole thing and participate.
I would say, I can remember in Way fellowships, doing the call on 'em approach, but I always preferred opening it up to anyone who felt inspired to, that way if you are, go for it. I hope no one popped something out to impress me or others. I doubt people did after knowing me awhile, why impress me? It won't get you anything, so why bother?
But I'd also have to say I've heard people who did "fake" something and it was odd. I know to most people it would all sound the same, but there is a difference. A not-a-mannie sounds more like a prayer to me, where it's coming from. A is-a-mannie sounds immediate, personal. It "rings' for want of a better word.
But overall, I never heard anything that would hurt people or make them do something wrong or feel bad about themselves.
Hi all! In all the years I was in twi, I never consciously "faked" speaking in tongues. Since leaving, one of the things I have realized was that my innie SIT was mechanical and something I felt obligated to do at times.
I have been attending a charismatic church for the last several months--they believe in SIT and many people do (but not in the meetings-the meetings are always decent and in order---but not rigid like twi. FYI they only have prophecy during meetings and its NOTHING like I ever heard in twi!) Anyway, since working through some of the things from twi I have noticed that my SIT has completely changed and now flows easier, has more inflection and comes from praise and thankfulness. (Just have been thinking for the last several months that it was a very interesting observation.)
***GSer's scatter to the four winds finding cover where they can -***
And I think I have finally gotten to the core of What bothers me about the "all nine all the time " doctrine of VPW
be you a Trinitarian or not, There are three persons in the Godhead,
Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ
the Holy Ghost
Separate but equal
Heavenly Father freely gave us the Gift of His son
Jesus Christ freely gave us the gift of the Comforter=Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost freely gives us the nine gifts/manifestations
Except in VPW world. in VPW world The Holy Ghost does not have the option to not give gifts and therefore, the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice. So if the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice-he's really not equal to the other two, is he? <_<
It just wouldn't do to have an Equal member of the Godhead exercising His freedom of choice (while you have a good bottle of Drambuie, some Kools, and a sweet young thing, in your private wheeled get away) by yelling in your ear NONONONONONONO. I mean we can't have that, can we?. :(
So the solution is to make the Holy Ghost less equal, an indwelling cookie dispenser dispensing as WE demand, then it's okay not to listen to Him unless we feel like it, Right?? :unsure:
My point was that one can be satisfied with what they have, or desire more and more 'pneumatikos' (sp ?)
things of the spirit. I think those that have a hunger for pneumatikos do receive into 'manifestation'
So in other words if we don't manifest more, we don"t hunger for more of the spirit?? Every time I thing I've heard every slam the "haves" can hurl at the "have nots" you find another one
Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again.
While in twi we were still very "me" centered. Since leaving one of my favorite statements I have heard from a fellow Christian is that, "Before I was born again, everything (including the Bible) was all about me, but now that I am born again, it is really all about HIM."
Do you really think that the Holy Ghost needs your help in deciding what you need to say?
Do you really think you need to practice getting your tongue and interpretation the same length?? The Holy Ghost is quite capable of giving the appropriate length interpretation for the language you just spoke without any help from you
Do you really think think The Holy Ghost needs your assistance in figuring out what he wants you to prophecy?
Do you really think the Holy Ghost can't figure out when you need a word of Wisdom or Knowledge without you trying for it??
That is the insidious thing about calling them manifestations instead of gifts. Manifesting is an act on our part if they are manifestation the work is on our part.
Sorry, Its not IMO, supposed to work like that they are Gifts and the Holy Ghost, indwelling in you, knows exactly when you need what gift and why and He will supply the correct one at the correct time.
If it's Word of Knowledge you need, SIT isn't going to fill the bill.
I don't go seeking after manifestations, I rely on the fact that the indwelling Holy Ghost will give me the gifts I need in the correct portions at the correct time, and He has never let me down yet.
I haven't needed all the gifts in my life but I have no doubts then if and when I do they'll be there
I'm Sorry Allan, but your method is based on your efforts, as long as you see it as manifestations that you have to bring into being the Holy Ghost is bound by that decision. He blesses you with the manifestations you seek when you seek them.
But did you ever stop and consider that if you take the burden off your shoulders of manifesting and put it on His shoulders of gift ginving, that you may find yourself ankle deep in more gifts ???
Wierwille taught that the gift of holy spirit was given by Holy Spirit, which is God. Templelady's statements fit whether she is talking about holy ghost as the third person of the trinity, or as God the Giver.
And I think I have finally gotten to the core of What bothers me about the "all nine all the time " doctrine of VPW
be you a Trinitarian or not, There are three persons in the Godhead,
Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ
the Holy Ghost
Separate but equal
Heavenly Father freely gave us the Gift of His son
Jesus Christ freely gave us the gift of the Comforter=Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost freely gives us the nine gifts/manifestations
Mo -- this is where you and I part ways (doctrinally speaking).
THE ONLY *TRINITY* I BELIEVE IN IS GOD, IN CHRIST, IN ME.
Now -- you can argue until the *cows come home*, but unless you can trot out a verse
in the bible saying exactly what you just said -- I can't, and won't believe it.
There IS NO THIRD PERSON of a trinity-Godhead.
Wait a minute -- Hmmmmm. Question -- if I may?? How come all of the Epistles (and I don't consider them to be the EXCLUSIVE *mandate* for us in this day and time), only have *greetings* from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ -- with NO mention of the Holy Spirit?? Eh??
holy spirit is a gift, God is Holy Spirit, and there is a difference between the GIVER, and the GIFT.
If you don't see it that way --- fine. No problem here.
But I see it different. I used to be a catholic, and believed in the trinity,
but I found it to be so much garbage.
I'm not holding your beliefs against you,
And I hope you don't hold mine against me.
Sure --- docvic taught all this -- and Lord knows where he got it from ---
But with all his plagiarizing -- he got some things right ---
(even a blind squirrel will occassionally find a nut!) ;)
only have *greetings* from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ -- with NO mention of the Holy Spirit
Because God and Jesus Christ are outside of us
And the Holy Ghostt is indwelling in us
you would end up with "Greetings from God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ and yourself"
I am, to be truthful, stunned,
It never occurred to me that you and Allan deny the existence of the Comforter as a person
Paraclete comes from the Greek word παράκλητος meaning "one who consoles" or "one who intercedes on our behalf",
"One who" NOT "something which"
JOHN 14:16, 26; 15:26, 16:7 (green is my notes)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter {not comfort but a person called the Comforter}, that he{ not "it" but "he", a person} may abide with you for ever;
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
What is it about three or more confirming ??Jesus Christ says, that The Holy Ghost is a HE not an it, not once ,not twice, not three times, but four times.
To me that's another sin in a long line that VPW will answer for because blaspheming of the Holy Ghost is the unforgivable sin. By relegated Him from a person to an it VPW has most definitely done that, not to mention the thousands of people that he led astray by this heresy.
I'm not angry at any of you, I don't think badly of you for what you believe, but I do have a tremendous sorrow that VPW so corrupted the teachings of Christ that you don't see the Holy Spirit as a living vital person that guides and protects , a constant companion who brings comfrot and joy. No matter what our differences my heart truly bleeds for you. :( because I see this as a tremendous loss for you.
Mo...if you were ever involved in twi surely you would have known what we believe ??
And thankyou for your concern..but I already know I won't be making it into the higher lds heaven and even if I did, my wife and I already agreed...we'd be the first couple there to ask for a 'celestial divorce'..!!!
And I'm glad for you and every other lds that Jo Smith did not 'corrupt' the Word like VP did..I'd like to personally thank him...could you tell me which spirit world he's floating around in at the moment ??
And....just a thought...have you tried talking things over with God ? You know..Jehovah Elohim. He is a source of wonderful comfort too.
Just a thought....have you ever thought about actually contributing to a discussion instead of following Mo around attacking her, her beliefs and pulling her hair?
I decided to read your last post because it appeared as though you might actually be having a discussion about the topic at hand....not intelligently (I know better than that), but at least staying on topic instead of spewing your b.s.
So much for giving you the benefit of the doubt.....
Mo...if you were ever involved in TWI surely you would have known what we believe ??
When I took PFAL in 1982 VPW said that the word Spirit is to be spelled in lower case when discussing the gifts because there was a difference between holy spirit, and Holy Spirit. This was done to support his interpretation of "the Gifts"
He went into some detail about the difference between Holy Spirit and holy spirit stating that in the instance of the gifts it should not have the capital because is not the Holy Spirit. But NEVER was I taught or did anyone in my presence claim that the Holy Spirit was a nebulous it as opposed to a who. The nebulous it was holy spirit
I don't know when this teaching came about or if it was something reserved for Advance class grads but I am simply floored
Mo, I haven't been following the posts of 'he who mut not be named, bur rather ignored', but you're absolutely correct that we were taught that there is a difference between Holy Spirit and holy spirit - God, who is Holy Spirit - gives us holy spirit - the gift. There's the giver and the gift - the gift is not capitalized, but God, Holy Spirit, is.
God, who is spirit - is also holy and is HOLY SPIRIT should always be referred to with capital letters H and S because it's God we're talking about.
The gift of holy spirit is a gift, not God - even though it's taught that it's "God in Christ in you" - this gift of holy spirit is always lower case.
I still have all my syllabi out on the table at home and will be more than happy to provide documentation if it will shut someone up. I doubt we'll be so lucky as to shut them up, but at least we could settle this one of many instances of ignorance on his part.
Remember when VPW was expounding on the reason that Jesus Christ could not be Heavenly Father? He used the following scripture
Matthew 3: 16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
He made the valid argument that Jesus Christ, dripping wet in the River Jordan, and the speaker in heaven (Heavenly Father) could not be one and the same.
Well the same goes for the other participant in these verses the Spirit of GOD (Holy Spirit) who took the form of a dove.
Either we have GOD speaking , the Holy Spirit descending and Jesus in the river
or we have God speaking and descending and in the river.
Clearly Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct personality else wise, the whole argument that these verses support the fact that Jesus and God are not one and the same falls flat. if the fact that Jesus and God are in two separate places proves that they are not one and the same, then the fact that God and the Holy Spirit are in two separate places proves they are not one and the same. You can't have it both ways
... While in twi we were still very "me" centered. ...
I actually think exactly the opposite in most cases.
While in twi, I believe many of us were going about doing the Word to the best we can, some of us going WOW, some Way Corps, some just doing the best being Joe believer in twig.
While in twi, we were helping move the Word and thereby blessing folks with what we believe would help them.
Contrast that to what I am doing now and I would say what I am doing right now is "me" centered. I am concerned about my own happiness. Maybe you are too?
Hey that's nothing to be ashamed of as God wants us to be happy.
But I refuse to disparage my or anyone else's twi involvement unless I know for sure...
That phrase appears exactly one time in the NT. I know VPW made it sound like it was all over the place but it wasn't.
the verses in question are
Colossians 1: 21-29 -which is actually all one sentence
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Paul isn't saying Christ lives in you he is saying that because of Christ we are reconciled to GOD so we can stand holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight. In other words what lives in you is the results of the atoning work of Christ.
In short VPW used the one time phrase to again negate the Holy Spirit.
TO say that picking this isolated phrase, that appears one time, to contradict everything else the NT says about the Holy spirit violates VPW's own teachings on the use of scriptural references [one time, two times, three times ], is merely touching the tip of the iceberg.
But after all, he was the MOG so he doesn't have to follow his own rules if he doesn't want to now does he??
To further demonstrate VPW's duplicity, the phrase Filled with the Holy Ghost appears eight times in the New Testament. Including saying that Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Ghost. So either Jesus Chrsit was filled with God , which is what the trinitarians have been saying all along, or he was filled with a seperate person.
That is why we couldn't have the comforter until Christ died, becuase it resided in Him, it was His death that released it for us.
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templelady
a punctuation mark { : } used after a word introducing a series or an example or an explanation a colon is used to connect complete thoughts; a colon emphasizes the second thought
[10]To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy;
to another discerning of spirits;
to another divers kinds of tongues;
to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man severally as he will.
dmiiller brought up a point -but let's not try and pick and choose which punctuation we like and which we don't -since punctuation was added after the fact, lets take it all out, along with the verse breaks: and we have
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit to another faith by the same Spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
By doing that you end up with exactly what every scholar but VPW agree is the correct translation
Lets be clear here I am not saying that all nine don't exist
I am not saying that no one received and uses all nine
What I am saying is that all "nine all the time" is not an absolute for everyone like VPW tried to make it sound
If you received all nine gifts and use them or know others who did and do I am truly happy for them and you
But, please please stop holding out the banner that says everyone got all nine and if they don't know that they are stupid , or not really trying, or their believing is off, or any of the other phraseology designed to tell others that we are inferior in our spiritual walk
And that what was done in TWI to hundreds of people and that is what is still being done on these boards. It is untrue and hurtful, bringing no peace to the recipients.
It shows those who are recipients of all nine to be braggarts, and scorners of their less gifted brethren, which I find an odd stance for persons who claim to have received so much at the hands of the Holy Spirit
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dmiller
You haven't received *9 gifts* (IMO). You receive one gift -- the ability (spirit).
I don't have a problem with that at all. :)
Mo -- thanks for taking out the punctuation!
Now --- please get rid of the capital *S* for the word spirit too.
(Leaving the *S* there, is like leavng all the punctuation there.)
Thanks!
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templelady
For to one is given by the spirit the word of wisdom to another the word of knowledge by the same spirit to another faith by the same spirit to another the gifts of healing by the same spirit to another the working of miracles to another prophecy to another discerning of spirits to another divers kinds of tongues to another the interpretation of tongues but all these worketh that one and the selfsame spirit dividing to every man severally as he will.
Okay capitals taken out
But it still comes to the same thing these are GIFTS given and the giver decides who gets what when.
The recipient of a gift doesn't get to demand what gift the giver gives,. that's why it's called a gift instad of an entitlement
And as for it being one gift--sorry that doesn't work either--if it was just one gift it wouldn't be referred to as separate gifts not only here but elsewhere.
I guess what I don't understand is why is it so important for you who believe "all nine all the time" to keep insisting that the rest of us are somehow deficient in our relationship to God. Why can't you just rejoice in the fact that you have all nine and let the rest of us rejoice in the ones we have??
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dmiller
Mo --- :) If I recollect correct -- docvic taught that the *to one* referred
back to the profit (mentioned in verse 7), not the person involved.
Now without getting into all that, I would like to say that I think you have
misunderstood the side of the fence that Allan and I are both coming from.
Both of us have said that all folks (born again) have the ABILITY to operate all nine,
because if one is born again -- then spirit resides within, and the ability is enabled.
I'm thinking you thought we said that all should HAVE ALL NINE, all the time.
I know I never said that, and I doubt if Allan did either.
We both (however) HAVE SAID *gift of spirit* equals *ability*.
And there is a huge difference there.
If you feel you have SOME *gifts* (as you call them) --
then I am convinced you have THE GIFT -- which is holy spirit.
And if you (or anyone else) has THE GIFT, then far be it from me to say that ---
I'm better than you, or vice versa because of how we each choose to run our lives.
Hope that makes sense. :)
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dmiller
Oh -- and may I add -- I don't denigrate those that felt they faked it either.
Session 12 of pfal was a *pressure cooker* for some/ many/ a lot of folks ---
and the *directive to conform* always weighed heavy on that small group of newbies,
overseen by many grads, all speaking in tongues, tipping the balances in favour of pfal.
Given session 12 of pfal -- it seems to me the *goal of that class*
was to get folks speaking in tongues --- Not KEYS TO UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE.
(Just my IMO).
No wonder folks felt *devastated*, if they couldn't *produce*.
Thankfully for me -- I was taught how to SIT by the Charismatic Catholics --
long before I ever heard of twi, or pfal. :)
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socks
Not being a newbie here, it's interesting reading, thanks for the sharing.
"Mannies" are a beautiful thing, as I've seen them. Faking them wouldn't be the right thing to do, of course. They're either there or they aren't. I can see the pressure causing people to want to "do" them to go along with the whole thing and participate.
I would say, I can remember in Way fellowships, doing the call on 'em approach, but I always preferred opening it up to anyone who felt inspired to, that way if you are, go for it. I hope no one popped something out to impress me or others. I doubt people did after knowing me awhile, why impress me? It won't get you anything, so why bother?
But I'd also have to say I've heard people who did "fake" something and it was odd. I know to most people it would all sound the same, but there is a difference. A not-a-mannie sounds more like a prayer to me, where it's coming from. A is-a-mannie sounds immediate, personal. It "rings' for want of a better word.
But overall, I never heard anything that would hurt people or make them do something wrong or feel bad about themselves.
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penguin
Hi all! In all the years I was in twi, I never consciously "faked" speaking in tongues. Since leaving, one of the things I have realized was that my innie SIT was mechanical and something I felt obligated to do at times.
I have been attending a charismatic church for the last several months--they believe in SIT and many people do (but not in the meetings-the meetings are always decent and in order---but not rigid like twi. FYI they only have prophecy during meetings and its NOTHING like I ever heard in twi!) Anyway, since working through some of the things from twi I have noticed that my SIT has completely changed and now flows easier, has more inflection and comes from praise and thankfulness. (Just have been thinking for the last several months that it was a very interesting observation.)
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allan w.
Ditto to what David said. Session 12 was a 'pressure cooker' for some, that's why I posted my experience.
My point was that one can be satisfied with what they have, or desire more and more 'pneumatikos' (sp ?)
things of the spirit. I think those that have a hunger for pneumatikos do receive into 'manifestation'.
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templelady
I have been pondering again,
***GSer's scatter to the four winds finding cover where they can -***
And I think I have finally gotten to the core of What bothers me about the "all nine all the time " doctrine of VPW
be you a Trinitarian or not, There are three persons in the Godhead,
Heavenly Father
Jesus Christ
the Holy Ghost
Separate but equal
Heavenly Father freely gave us the Gift of His son
Jesus Christ freely gave us the gift of the Comforter=Holy Ghost
The Holy Ghost freely gives us the nine gifts/manifestations
Except in VPW world. in VPW world The Holy Ghost does not have the option to not give gifts and therefore, the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice. So if the Holy Ghost lacks freedom of choice-he's really not equal to the other two, is he? <_<
It just wouldn't do to have an Equal member of the Godhead exercising His freedom of choice (while you have a good bottle of Drambuie, some Kools, and a sweet young thing, in your private wheeled get away) by yelling in your ear NONONONONONONO. I mean we can't have that, can we?. :(
So the solution is to make the Holy Ghost less equal, an indwelling cookie dispenser dispensing as WE demand, then it's okay not to listen to Him unless we feel like it, Right?? :unsure:
So in other words if we don't manifest more, we don"t hunger for more of the spirit?? Every time I thing I've heard every slam the "haves" can hurl at the "have nots" you find another one
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penguin
TL
Just like twi minimized Jesus and his role (since twi doctrine makes him absent and we take his place,) I agree that they also minimized the role of the Holy Spirit. Even God our Father was minimized to a genie-like wish/demand granter. It was only after I realized I was missing a relationship with Jesus Christ (because of listening to Christian music on the radio,) that I started feeling those pricks of conscience again.
While in twi we were still very "me" centered. Since leaving one of my favorite statements I have heard from a fellow Christian is that, "Before I was born again, everything (including the Bible) was all about me, but now that I am born again, it is really all about HIM."
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templelady
And that is the other thing that bothers me.
The way VPW handled the gifts
Is was all on the shoulders of the Believer
It was our job to manifest
we practiced speaking in tongues
we practiced interpretation
we practiced prophesying
we worked at getting all nine all the time
Think about it
Do you really think that the Holy Ghost needs your help in deciding what you need to say?
Do you really think you need to practice getting your tongue and interpretation the same length?? The Holy Ghost is quite capable of giving the appropriate length interpretation for the language you just spoke without any help from you
Do you really think think The Holy Ghost needs your assistance in figuring out what he wants you to prophecy?
Do you really think the Holy Ghost can't figure out when you need a word of Wisdom or Knowledge without you trying for it??
That is the insidious thing about calling them manifestations instead of gifts. Manifesting is an act on our part if they are manifestation the work is on our part.
Sorry, Its not IMO, supposed to work like that they are Gifts and the Holy Ghost, indwelling in you, knows exactly when you need what gift and why and He will supply the correct one at the correct time.
If it's Word of Knowledge you need, SIT isn't going to fill the bill.
I don't go seeking after manifestations, I rely on the fact that the indwelling Holy Ghost will give me the gifts I need in the correct portions at the correct time, and He has never let me down yet.
I haven't needed all the gifts in my life but I have no doubts then if and when I do they'll be there
I'm Sorry Allan, but your method is based on your efforts, as long as you see it as manifestations that you have to bring into being the Holy Ghost is bound by that decision. He blesses you with the manifestations you seek when you seek them.
But did you ever stop and consider that if you take the burden off your shoulders of manifesting and put it on His shoulders of gift ginving, that you may find yourself ankle deep in more gifts ???
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allan w.
Yes Mo...IF the holy ghost is/was a PERSON some of your statements could be true. However, I do not believe this to be the case.
"Good morning holy spirit "
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Oakspear
Wierwille taught that the gift of holy spirit was given by Holy Spirit, which is God. Templelady's statements fit whether she is talking about holy ghost as the third person of the trinity, or as God the Giver.
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dmiller
Mo -- this is where you and I part ways (doctrinally speaking).
THE ONLY *TRINITY* I BELIEVE IN IS GOD, IN CHRIST, IN ME.
Now -- you can argue until the *cows come home*, but unless you can trot out a verse
in the bible saying exactly what you just said -- I can't, and won't believe it.
There IS NO THIRD PERSON of a trinity-Godhead.
Wait a minute -- Hmmmmm. Question -- if I may?? How come all of the Epistles (and I don't consider them to be the EXCLUSIVE *mandate* for us in this day and time), only have *greetings* from God the Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ -- with NO mention of the Holy Spirit?? Eh??
holy spirit is a gift, God is Holy Spirit, and there is a difference between the GIVER, and the GIFT.
If you don't see it that way --- fine. No problem here.
But I see it different. I used to be a catholic, and believed in the trinity,
but I found it to be so much garbage.
I'm not holding your beliefs against you,
And I hope you don't hold mine against me.
Sure --- docvic taught all this -- and Lord knows where he got it from ---
But with all his plagiarizing -- he got some things right ---
(even a blind squirrel will occassionally find a nut!) ;)
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WhiteDove
(
David you are not going to start with the squirrelly bird thing again are you? :blink:
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templelady
Because God and Jesus Christ are outside of us
And the Holy Ghostt is indwelling in us
you would end up with "Greetings from God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ and yourself"
I am, to be truthful, stunned,
It never occurred to me that you and Allan deny the existence of the Comforter as a person
Paraclete comes from the Greek word παράκλητος meaning "one who consoles" or "one who intercedes on our behalf",
"One who" NOT "something which"
JOHN 14:16, 26; 15:26, 16:7 (green is my notes)
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter {not comfort but a person called the Comforter}, that he { not "it" but "he", a person} may abide with you for ever;
But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
What is it about three or more confirming ??Jesus Christ says, that The Holy Ghost is a HE not an it, not once ,not twice, not three times, but four times.
To me that's another sin in a long line that VPW
will answer for because blaspheming of the Holy Ghost is the unforgivable sin. By relegated Him from a person to an it VPW 
has most definitely done that, not to mention the thousands of people that he led astray by this heresy.
I'm not angry at any of you, I don't think badly of you for what you believe, but I do have a tremendous sorrow that VPW
so corrupted the teachings of Christ that you don't see the Holy Spirit as a living vital person that guides and protects , a constant companion who brings comfrot and joy. No matter what our differences my heart truly bleeds for you. :( because I see this as a tremendous loss for you.
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allan w.
Mo...if you were ever involved in twi surely you would have known what we believe ??
And thankyou for your concern..but I already know I won't be making it into the higher lds heaven and even if I did, my wife and I already agreed...we'd be the first couple there to ask for a 'celestial divorce'..!!!
And I'm glad for you and every other lds that Jo Smith did not 'corrupt' the Word like VP did..I'd like to personally thank him...could you tell me which spirit world he's floating around in at the moment ??
And....just a thought...have you tried talking things over with God ? You know..Jehovah Elohim. He is a source of wonderful comfort too.
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Belle
Just a thought....have you ever thought about actually contributing to a discussion instead of following Mo around attacking her, her beliefs and pulling her hair?
I decided to read your last post because it appeared as though you might actually be having a discussion about the topic at hand....not intelligently (I know better than that), but at least staying on topic instead of spewing your b.s.
So much for giving you the benefit of the doubt.....
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templelady
When I took PFAL in 1982 VPW said that the word Spirit is to be spelled in lower case when discussing the gifts because there was a difference between holy spirit, and Holy Spirit. This was done to support his interpretation of "the Gifts"
He went into some detail about the difference between Holy Spirit and holy spirit stating that in the instance of the gifts it should not have the capital because is not the Holy Spirit. But NEVER was I taught or did anyone in my presence claim that the Holy Spirit was a nebulous it as opposed to a who. The nebulous it was holy spirit
I don't know when this teaching came about or if it was something reserved for Advance class grads but I am simply floored
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Belle
Mo, I haven't been following the posts of 'he who mut not be named, bur rather ignored', but you're absolutely correct that we were taught that there is a difference between Holy Spirit and holy spirit - God, who is Holy Spirit - gives us holy spirit - the gift. There's the giver and the gift - the gift is not capitalized, but God, Holy Spirit, is.
God, who is spirit - is also holy and is HOLY SPIRIT should always be referred to with capital letters H and S because it's God we're talking about.
The gift of holy spirit is a gift, not God - even though it's taught that it's "God in Christ in you" - this gift of holy spirit is always lower case.
I still have all my syllabi out on the table at home and will be more than happy to provide documentation if it will shut someone up. I doubt we'll be so lucky as to shut them up, but at least we could settle this one of many instances of ignorance on his part.
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templelady
Remember when VPW was expounding on the reason that Jesus Christ could not be Heavenly Father? He used the following scripture
Matthew 3: 16-17
And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
He made the valid argument that Jesus Christ, dripping wet in the River Jordan, and the speaker in heaven (Heavenly Father) could not be one and the same.
Well the same goes for the other participant in these verses the Spirit of GOD (Holy Spirit) who took the form of a dove.
Either we have GOD speaking , the Holy Spirit descending and Jesus in the river
or we have God speaking and descending and in the river.
Clearly Holy Spirit is a separate and distinct personality else wise, the whole argument that these verses support the fact that Jesus and God are not one and the same falls flat. if the fact that Jesus and God are in two separate places proves that they are not one and the same, then the fact that God and the Holy Spirit are in two separate places proves they are not one and the same. You can't have it both ways
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
mo your post usually make a lot of sense to me but you said god and jc are not in us what about christ in you the hope of glory?
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oldiesman
I actually think exactly the opposite in most cases.
While in twi, I believe many of us were going about doing the Word to the best we can, some of us going WOW, some Way Corps, some just doing the best being Joe believer in twig.
While in twi, we were helping move the Word and thereby blessing folks with what we believe would help them.
Contrast that to what I am doing now and I would say what I am doing right now is "me" centered. I am concerned about my own happiness. Maybe you are too?
Hey that's nothing to be ashamed of as God wants us to be happy.
But I refuse to disparage my or anyone else's twi involvement unless I know for sure...
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templelady
That phrase appears exactly one time in the NT. I know VPW made it sound like it was all over the place but it wasn't.
the verses in question are
Colossians 1: 21-29 -which is actually all one sentence
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.
Paul isn't saying Christ lives in you he is saying that because of Christ we are reconciled to GOD so we can stand holy, unblameable, and unreproveable in His sight. In other words what lives in you is the results of the atoning work of Christ.
In short VPW used the one time phrase to again negate the Holy Spirit.
TO say that picking this isolated phrase, that appears one time, to contradict everything else the NT says about the Holy spirit violates VPW's own teachings on the use of scriptural references [one time, two times, three times ], is merely touching the tip of the iceberg.
But after all, he was the MOG so he doesn't have to follow his own rules if he doesn't want to now does he??
To further demonstrate VPW's duplicity, the phrase Filled with the Holy Ghost appears eight times in the New Testament. Including saying that Jesus Christ was filled with the Holy Ghost. So either Jesus Chrsit was filled with God , which is what the trinitarians have been saying all along, or he was filled with a seperate person.
That is why we couldn't have the comforter until Christ died, becuase it resided in Him, it was His death that released it for us.
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