I may not personally like it but it made me think and talk to God and his son Christ about it
And is that what all books should do whether revealed from above or wrote to misslead
I say read it with a gain of salt see what you find then ask who you love about it whether your love one be God the father of Jesus Christ or a person of flesh
What got me to think is you can either baptized in Christ which is God's love or you can be baptized in Judas which money worship
but I am sure there are many more
Look at being baptize in Cain which is the love of power
The thing that has always bothered me about the story of Judas - Is that just is so disjointed in so many places.
I mean, Its like a bad novel or movie where the author runs out of steam and ties up his loose ends with out any rhyme or reason to the rest of the plot.
The following is PURELY BOOK OF "MO"
Clearly Judas was the linchpin of the whole crucifixion, without his betrayal the soldiers would not have arrested Jesus soon enough for all the necessary events to have transpired in time for Christ to have been crucified before sundown marking the the start of Passover.
We'll start with Peter lopping off the ear of that soldier. Never made much sense I mean why someones ear?
But what if, the soldier wasn't Peters target? if I were setting out to arrest someone and had a person with me whose job it was to point the arrestee out to me, that person would be in front with me, so as to point my target out quickly so I still had the element of surprise.
So let's picture it, here everyone is, Christ the apostles and Judas next to the soldiers.
So I am Peter, and I remember Judas' early exit from dinner, and now here he is with the enemy, and they are arresting Jesus,
Doesn't take much mental math to arrive at the logical conclusion. We know Peter was strong and quick to anger. So he takes a sword and he starts a swing at JUDAS, who moves and the arc of the swing slices the ear of the person next to the spot where Judas stood seconds before. Goodbye ear. Which would also give another facet to the healing by Christ not only did It manifest His power, but the soldier in question was an innocent bystander just doing his job.
NOW we come to the Field.
The only logical explanation IMO is that there were two fields.
One purchased by the Priests with the money returned and one belonging to Judas. It is interesting to note that what the priests bought was a potters field. A field where those who died, or were crucified and had no tomb could be buried UINDER THE CONTROL OF THE PRIESTS. I think in their minds everything had "gone south" when they let Jesus' body out of their control, remember how they had asked Rome for soldiers to guard the tomb? With their own cemetery that problem would never arise again --but I digress
And A field that Judas purchased with other funds- where those funds came from isn't really important other than it wasn't those 30 pieces of silver
Finally we come to the actual death of Judas
Judas went out and Hanged himself
But did he?
Acts1
15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Hmm here is Peter again
Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Is it possible that Peter was the only one close enough that night to have seen Judas in the shadows with the soldiers?
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity
Matthew covers the error of this statement (see markomalleys post)
and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out
Now this is very interesting
If you hang yourself and the weight of the body causes the rope to break you fall feet first --law of gravity
BUT
If you are crucified, and the body is left hanging (as was the case in crucifixion. Bodies were left for days or weeks, the coming Passover is what made Christ's case unique) gradually the heat beating down, the flies, the decay of the body will cause gases to form and the body to bloat. At some point in time it is entirely possible for the weight of the body to cause the wrists to pull free. When that happens the body pitches forward HEADFIRST, the momentum and weight causing the feet to wrench free, and it hits the ground head down while the impact causes the bloated intestines to explode.
That leaves only one question? Who crucified him? personally my money is on Peter.
WHEN do you think Peter crucified him? Just curious. Interesting theory.
I don't have a problem with reading The Gospel of Judas. Might learn something. I've always thought there were a lot of holes in what happened to Judas, also.
WHEN do you think Peter crucified him? Just curious. Interesting theory.
Sometime after Christ's appearance since they were all together then. I doubt at that point that Judas put up much of a fight--Probably felt he had it coming, also I'm not ruling out that Peter had assistance.
Anybody here remember the theory that was taught in TWI (I think) that Judas' hanging wasn't via a noose of rope, nor by being crucified, but by impaling himself on a pike or pointed stick, thus having all his guts come out? ((eewwwww))
How about that one?
Also, I would think of it highly unlikely that Peter and the gang would have crucified (or killed) Judas, as that would be an illegal act on their account, particularly since the Romans didn't take too kindly at all to their subject people's inflicting the death penalty themselves.
Also, I would think of it highly unlikely that Peter and the gang would have crucified (or killed) Judas, as that would be an illegal act on their account, particularly since the Romans didn't take too kindly at all to their subject people's inflicting the death penalty themselves.
You could be right Garth
But then again that second field--
No record of where or how remote it was.
Also I figure the Romans had their hands full controlling the crowds that resulted as a result of hearing Jesus Had risen form the dead, not to mention the reaction of their superiors and the Jewish priesthood.
Plus you don't have to hang someone 8 feet off the ground to crucify them-the Romans did that for display purposes. 6 feet would do nicely maybe even lower considering the height of the average man then.
And if they did find out---
well that is just one more loose end out of the way isn't it ? a former informer who is not going to stick to the party line and is now one of the ones claiming Jesus is risen.
I don't think it would be that hard to conceal. Living in the age we do now it is hard imagine what it means to have no communication except by word of mouth or messenger. Unless someone happened to stumble across the body, doubtful if he was hung on his own private property, It could very well have gone unnoticed
The same Peter that cursed and swore that he didn't even know Jesus just a few hours after Judas betrayed him? Peter's denial was also an act of betrayal, was it not?
Now, wouldn't that be an act of hipocracy -- Peter crucifying Judas. . A real whopper.
There's not even a hint that Peter did any such thing. Not in the scriptures, not in the Apocrapha, not in the gnostic writings, church fathers, tradition - nowhere.
While in the waiting room of the doctor with whom my wife had an appointment, I read the following on the Gospel of Judas in a copy of "Time" magazine a couple months old, which I thought was interesting:
"...the rumor of its publication has stirred intriguing discussion. Queried by the newspaper La Stampa , Vatican historian Monsignor Walter Brandmuller noted that the tractate might shed light on early Christianity even if the text had eventually been found heretical. Vittorio Messori, a layman who has co-writtten books with Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI (when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) is more effusive.
"Jesus' words about Judas ["It would have been good for that man if he had not been born"] are tough," he told TIME. But "Judas wasn't guilty. He was necessary. Somebody had to betray Jesus. Judas was the victim of a design bigger than himself."
Remember the Muslim tradition says Judas was crucified--I don't agree that e was crucified instead of Jesus--but I think there is a kernel of truth there especially with what the Bible says about the manner of his death (as I outlined before)
IF Judas was crucified by one of the apostles --my money is on Peter, He was strong, scripture shows He had somewhat of an attitude that "I am right", almost a cockiness, in places, definitely he liked to be in the forefront.
There is the possibility that Judas was crucified by other disciples--sometimes we loose sight of the fact that there was a multitude of disciples besides the twelve.
Whatever the case, My money still says Peter, if not directly involved, definitely had a hand in it or at the very least knew about it
The idea that Judas was even crucified is based upon pure speculation. To say that Peter had a hand in it is speculation upon speculation.
The apostles had no authority whatsoever to carry out an execution like this. Now wouldn't that been a lovely start for Christianity - Peter and the other apostles having a lynching and illegally crucifying (murdering) Judas.
Anybody here remember the theory that was taught in TWI (I think) that Judas' hanging wasn't via a noose of rope, nor by being crucified, but by impaling himself on a pike or pointed stick, thus having all his guts come out? ((eewwwww))
How about that one?
Check out the book of Esther. :)
Haman had a *gallows* like that prepared for Mordecai.
The idea that Judas was even crucified is based upon pure speculation. To say that Peter had a hand in it is speculation upon speculation.
It''s not all speculation the Quran that other book of Scripture from the Judeo-Christian perspective clearly states Judas was crucified.
I personally can see why that would have been left out from the NT for just the reasons you outlined
Judas being crucified makes a lot more sense than
Trying to figure out how a person can fall head first to the ground if the rope breaks during a hanging
Envisioning someone pounding a stake in the ground then impaling themselves belly first in which case the belly would explode before the head hit the ground
As I outlined, Peter's description of Judas' death in Acts--is exactly what would happen if a body fell from a cross
The apostles had no authority whatsoever to carry out an execution like this. .
Didn't have any authority to preach the gospel from the authorities either, or to start a new church but that didn't slow them down any
Now wouldn't that been a lovely start for Christianity - Peter and the other apostles having a lynching and illegally crucifying (murdering) Judas
Yeah, Something like Saul holding coats while Stephen was stoned at his behest.
Don't you find it the least bit strange that the Bible, which documents in detail, David, Sodom and Gomorrah, Annias and Saphira, etc etc. Is so completely vague about the Judas' life after he betrayed Christ and his death?
I would expect to find a series of verses that dealt with such things as
How was Judas received when he returned to the Disciples?
What was Christ's reaction when he appeared to the twelve toward Judas?
What was Judas' reaction to Christ?
Did the Disciples banish Judas from their midst?
If not, Why not?
exactly when he died
exactly where he died
A description the death at the time it occurred not vague references after the fact.
The absence of the above is so glaring as to be blinding. So the question becomes, why isn't it there? and who had a vested interest in it not being there?
My answer is not definitive but it is possible, because as much as many of us have been taught tho elevate the apostles, the reality is they were just men who had the opportunity to know and follow Christ personally and then spread his gospel after His death. They were't suddenly transformed into some glorious beings, they remained as they were, men with passions, and feelings and emotions , and good and bad judgement, sometimes listening to the Spirit and and sometimes not
It''s not all speculation the Quran that other book of Scripture from the Judeo-Christian perspective clearly states Judas was crucified.
[The Koran was written several centuries later.
"Gospels" written 300 years later are generally acknowledged
to be of inferior authority.
Many books written 300 years later appear to have a specific
axe to grind, and a doctrine to push.
Mohammed specifically wanted to discredit Christianity AND
Judaism, and likely would have resented any claims his
book was "from the Judeo-Christian perspective."
AND it was written centuries after the "other gospels".
That the Koran claims the Gospels have it wrong is no
surprise to me, neither does it impress me.
"The Da Vinci Code" and "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" claimed
the Gospels have it wrong as well. However, since they're
centuries too late to be party to the events, AND they've
their own agendas to push, they don't impress me either.
So, that ANY book written centuries later can claim Judas
was crucified, slipped in a tub and broke his neck,
or was run over by a team of racing camels
all strike me as NON-ISSUES.
I mean, I can write a book saying he was pushed out a
window. Because my book would be in
"the Judeo-Christian tradition", would that make my
book authoritative?]
I personally can see why that would have been left out from the NT for just the reasons you outlined
[Or maybe it was invented in the intervening centuries by
someone who didn't like the Biblical accounts.]
As I outlined, Peter's description of Judas' death in Acts--is exactly what would happen if a body fell from a cross
[i do agree that attempting to harmonize the accounts in the Gospels and
Acts 1 is a good idea.
Either they fit together and are one event,
or they do not fit together, and one describes Judas' death
and the other only looks like it does.]
Don't you find it the least bit strange that the Bible, which documents in detail, David, Sodom and Gomorrah, Annias and Saphira, etc etc. Is so completely vague about the Judas' life after he betrayed Christ and his death?
[i'll agree. I find it the least bit strange.
I'll keep that one filed next to my questions on the grapegatherers,
which also strikes me as strange.]
I would expect to find a series of verses that dealt with such things as
How was Judas received when he returned to the Disciples?
What was Christ's reaction when he appeared to the twelve toward Judas?
What was Judas' reaction to Christ?
Did the Disciples banish Judas from their midst?
If not, Why not?
exactly when he died
exactly where he died
A description the death at the time it occurred not vague references after the fact.
The absence of the above is so glaring as to be blinding. So the question becomes, why isn't it there? and who had a vested interest in it not being there?
[You noted that YOU would expect it.
Me, I would "expect" a more thorough account of the hard sciences
in the Bible. Looks like we were both disappointed.
You can always lodge a complaint with God Almighty-
after all, He didn't consult YOUR opinion before setting things in motion.
("If you want to know what God thinks of your opinion,
just ask yourself when the last time He asked you for it was...")
Priorities can differ between a dozen cultures across 20 centuries.
What seems "a glaring" omission to you can seem superfluous
to include to someone 2000 years ago. You're reading THEIR
texts with YOUR mindset, and see a disparity.
This is a surprise?
There's hefty debate over the US Constitution and the Bill
of Rights, and that's only 200 years old and in the same country!]
My answer is not definitive but it is possible, because as much as many of us have been taught tho elevate the apostles, the reality is they were just men who had the opportunity to know and follow Christ personally and then spread his gospel after His death. They were't suddenly transformed into some glorious beings, they remained as they were, men with passions, and feelings and emotions , and good and bad judgement, sometimes listening to the Spirit and and sometimes not
[if you don't trust the Gospel accounts of the eyewitnesses and those
who interacted directly with the eyewitnesses,
whether or not you think the Gospels are God-breathed,
what makes you think that speculation centuries later
Me, I would "expect" a more thorough account of the hard sciences
in the Bible. Looks like we were both disappointed.
You can always lodge a complaint with God Almighty-
after all, He didn't consult YOUR opinion before setting things in motion.
("If you want to know what God thinks of your opinion,
just ask yourself when the last time He asked you for it was...")
Priorities can differ between a dozen cultures across 20 centuries.
What seems "a glaring" omission to you can seem superfluous
to include to someone 2000 years ago. You're reading THEIR
texts with YOUR mindset, and see a disparity.
This is a surprise?
There's hefty debate over the US Constitution and the Bill
of Rights, and that's only 200 years old and in the same country!]
What part of "My conclusion, by no means unchangeable and NOT LDS theology, since I am still working through this whole concept" Is unclear??
Somehow what I proposed as a possibility has been turned into the equivalent of "Templelady believes it to be the gospel truth"
You don't like the my theory fine, I understand your reasons
But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater OKAY??
alert!
Now this discussion/'rant' between Wordwolf and Mo is one of the classic reasons why I have disgarded the authority based faith of religion, and went over to independent freethought. ('hard sciences' in the Bible? :blink: ) Apparently Wordwolf is miffed that Mo is raising these kinds of questions, and treats them as tho' she's going straight to the Throne of God, and having the mitigated *gaul* of saying "I have a bone to pick with you!"
((shakes my head)) You guys are a riot! :lol:
(we now head back to our regularly scheduled Gospel of Judas.)
If Judas didn't die by crucifixion how did he fall headfirst onto the ground after being Hung??
Would have to circumvent the laws of gravity to do that
That's what I would like an answer to Please
I will try to answer that. Here is the text:
Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and
falling headlong
, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
First, the scripture here does not say head-first - it says headlong.
"Falling headlong" in the text is prênêsgenomenos . Prenes means face-down and genemenos means "came to be". -- Genemenos never means "to fall" physically, as from a higher place to a lower one. That would be the Greek "pipto".
So what this verse is saying, if I can paraphrase, is that Judas came to be "face-down." It does not mean he fell head-first, although the KJ translation might seem to suggest that.
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Ok I have read the book of Judas
I may not personally like it but it made me think and talk to God and his son Christ about it
And is that what all books should do whether revealed from above or wrote to misslead
I say read it with a gain of salt see what you find then ask who you love about it whether your love one be God the father of Jesus Christ or a person of flesh
What got me to think is you can either baptized in Christ which is God's love or you can be baptized in Judas which money worship
but I am sure there are many more
Look at being baptize in Cain which is the love of power
thank you
just my two pennies
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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templelady
The thing that has always bothered me about the story of Judas - Is that just is so disjointed in so many places.
I mean, Its like a bad novel or movie where the author runs out of steam and ties up his loose ends with out any rhyme or reason to the rest of the plot.
The following is PURELY BOOK OF "MO"
Clearly Judas was the linchpin of the whole crucifixion, without his betrayal the soldiers would not have arrested Jesus soon enough for all the necessary events to have transpired in time for Christ to have been crucified before sundown marking the the start of Passover.
We'll start with Peter lopping off the ear of that soldier. Never made much sense I mean why someones ear?
But what if, the soldier wasn't Peters target? if I were setting out to arrest someone and had a person with me whose job it was to point the arrestee out to me, that person would be in front with me, so as to point my target out quickly so I still had the element of surprise.
So let's picture it, here everyone is, Christ the apostles and Judas next to the soldiers.
So I am Peter, and I remember Judas' early exit from dinner, and now here he is with the enemy, and they are arresting Jesus,
Doesn't take much mental math to arrive at the logical conclusion. We know Peter was strong and quick to anger. So he takes a sword and he starts a swing at JUDAS, who moves and the arc of the swing slices the ear of the person next to the spot where Judas stood seconds before. Goodbye ear. Which would also give another facet to the healing by Christ not only did It manifest His power, but the soldier in question was an innocent bystander just doing his job.
NOW we come to the Field.
The only logical explanation IMO is that there were two fields.
One purchased by the Priests with the money returned and one belonging to Judas. It is interesting to note that what the priests bought was a potters field. A field where those who died, or were crucified and had no tomb could be buried UINDER THE CONTROL OF THE PRIESTS. I think in their minds everything had "gone south" when they let Jesus' body out of their control, remember how they had asked Rome for soldiers to guard the tomb? With their own cemetery that problem would never arise again --but I digress
And A field that Judas purchased with other funds- where those funds came from isn't really important other than it wasn't those 30 pieces of silver
Finally we come to the actual death of Judas
Judas went out and Hanged himself
But did he?
Acts1
15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Hmm here is Peter again
Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
Is it possible that Peter was the only one close enough that night to have seen Judas in the shadows with the soldiers?
Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity
Matthew covers the error of this statement (see markomalleys post)
and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out
Now this is very interesting
If you hang yourself and the weight of the body causes the rope to break you fall feet first --law of gravity
BUT
If you are crucified, and the body is left hanging (as was the case in crucifixion. Bodies were left for days or weeks, the coming Passover is what made Christ's case unique) gradually the heat beating down, the flies, the decay of the body will cause gases to form and the body to bloat. At some point in time it is entirely possible for the weight of the body to cause the wrists to pull free. When that happens the body pitches forward HEADFIRST, the momentum and weight causing the feet to wrench free, and it hits the ground head down while the impact causes the bloated intestines to explode.
That leaves only one question? Who crucified him? personally my money is on Peter.
Well that is MY theory
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waterbuffalo
WHEN do you think Peter crucified him? Just curious. Interesting theory.
I don't have a problem with reading The Gospel of Judas. Might learn something. I've always thought there were a lot of holes in what happened to Judas, also.
What you said, Goey!
I'll second that. Hehe.
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dmiller
Mo -- I was gonna spend this evening picking some music.
I guess I can give up on that now! :D
Verry Interesting!
(Not saying I agree -- but verry interesting.) ;)
(mebee Peter had bad aim -- going for the head, and got an ear instead?)
Or perhaps --- the soldier got *rev* to duck?? Naw -- that doesn't fit!
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templelady
WHEN do you think Peter crucified him? Just curious. Interesting theory.
Sometime after Christ's appearance since they were all together then. I doubt at that point that Judas put up much of a fight--Probably felt he had it coming, also I'm not ruling out that Peter had assistance.
I
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GarthP2000
Anybody here remember the theory that was taught in TWI (I think) that Judas' hanging wasn't via a noose of rope, nor by being crucified, but by impaling himself on a pike or pointed stick, thus having all his guts come out? ((eewwwww))
How about that one?
Also, I would think of it highly unlikely that Peter and the gang would have crucified (or killed) Judas, as that would be an illegal act on their account, particularly since the Romans didn't take too kindly at all to their subject people's inflicting the death penalty themselves.
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templelady
You could be right Garth
But then again that second field--
No record of where or how remote it was.
Also I figure the Romans had their hands full controlling the crowds that resulted as a result of hearing Jesus Had risen form the dead, not to mention the reaction of their superiors and the Jewish priesthood.
Plus you don't have to hang someone 8 feet off the ground to crucify them-the Romans did that for display purposes. 6 feet would do nicely maybe even lower considering the height of the average man then.
And if they did find out---
well that is just one more loose end out of the way isn't it ? a former informer who is not going to stick to the party line and is now one of the ones claiming Jesus is risen.
I don't think it would be that hard to conceal. Living in the age we do now it is hard imagine what it means to have no communication except by word of mouth or messenger. Unless someone happened to stumble across the body, doubtful if he was hung on his own private property, It could very well have gone unnoticed
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Goey
Peter crucified Judas?
The same Peter that cursed and swore that he didn't even know Jesus just a few hours after Judas betrayed him? Peter's denial was also an act of betrayal, was it not?
Now, wouldn't that be an act of hipocracy -- Peter crucifying Judas. . A real whopper.
There's not even a hint that Peter did any such thing. Not in the scriptures, not in the Apocrapha, not in the gnostic writings, church fathers, tradition - nowhere.
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TheInvisibleDan
While in the waiting room of the doctor with whom my wife had an appointment, I read the following on the Gospel of Judas in a copy of "Time" magazine a couple months old, which I thought was interesting:
"...the rumor of its publication has stirred intriguing discussion. Queried by the newspaper La Stampa , Vatican historian Monsignor Walter Brandmuller noted that the tractate might shed light on early Christianity even if the text had eventually been found heretical. Vittorio Messori, a layman who has co-writtten books with Popes John Paul II and Benedict XVI (when he was Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) is more effusive.
"Jesus' words about Judas ["It would have been good for that man if he had not been born"] are tough," he told TIME. But "Judas wasn't guilty. He was necessary. Somebody had to betray Jesus. Judas was the victim of a design bigger than himself."
(p.51, TIME, feb.27, 2006)
Danny
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templelady
This is all hypothetical
Just my take on what Might have happened.
Based on the evidence available.
Remember the Muslim tradition says Judas was crucified--I don't agree that e was crucified instead of Jesus--but I think there is a kernel of truth there especially with what the Bible says about the manner of his death (as I outlined before)
IF Judas was crucified by one of the apostles --my money is on Peter, He was strong, scripture shows He had somewhat of an attitude that "I am right", almost a cockiness, in places, definitely he liked to be in the forefront.
There is the possibility that Judas was crucified by other disciples--sometimes we loose sight of the fact that there was a multitude of disciples besides the twelve.
Whatever the case, My money still says Peter, if not directly involved, definitely had a hand in it or at the very least knew about it
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Goey
Mo,
The idea that Judas was even crucified is based upon pure speculation. To say that Peter had a hand in it is speculation upon speculation.
The apostles had no authority whatsoever to carry out an execution like this. Now wouldn't that been a lovely start for Christianity - Peter and the other apostles having a lynching and illegally crucifying (murdering) Judas.
Thats way way out there Mo. Way out there.
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dmiller
Check out the book of Esther. :)
Haman had a *gallows* like that prepared for Mordecai.
It backfired on him.
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dmiller
First of all -- I don't believe the Muslim tradition.
And also -- Mat. 27:5 --says that Judas hanged himself,
which is cross referenced to II Sam. 17:23, where Ahithophel did the same.
Did Judas have *help*??
I dunno -- but I'm thinking suicide, rather than otherwise.
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templelady
It''s not all speculation the Quran that other book of Scripture from the Judeo-Christian perspective clearly states Judas was crucified.
I personally can see why that would have been left out from the NT for just the reasons you outlined
Judas being crucified makes a lot more sense than
Trying to figure out how a person can fall head first to the ground if the rope breaks during a hanging
Envisioning someone pounding a stake in the ground then impaling themselves belly first in which case the belly would explode before the head hit the ground
As I outlined, Peter's description of Judas' death in Acts--is exactly what would happen if a body fell from a cross
Didn't have any authority to preach the gospel from the authorities either, or to start a new church but that didn't slow them down anyYeah, Something like Saul holding coats while Stephen was stoned at his behest.
Don't you find it the least bit strange that the Bible, which documents in detail, David, Sodom and Gomorrah, Annias and Saphira, etc etc. Is so completely vague about the Judas' life after he betrayed Christ and his death?
I would expect to find a series of verses that dealt with such things as
How was Judas received when he returned to the Disciples?
What was Christ's reaction when he appeared to the twelve toward Judas?
What was Judas' reaction to Christ?
Did the Disciples banish Judas from their midst?
If not, Why not?
exactly when he died
exactly where he died
A description the death at the time it occurred not vague references after the fact.
The absence of the above is so glaring as to be blinding. So the question becomes, why isn't it there? and who had a vested interest in it not being there?
My answer is not definitive but it is possible, because as much as many of us have been taught tho elevate the apostles, the reality is they were just men who had the opportunity to know and follow Christ personally and then spread his gospel after His death. They were't suddenly transformed into some glorious beings, they remained as they were, men with passions, and feelings and emotions , and good and bad judgement, sometimes listening to the Spirit and and sometimes not
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dmiller
Hmmmm. I never elevated the Apostles,
I just figured they *carried on*, and did what needed to be done.
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WordWolf
[The Koran was written several centuries later.
"Gospels" written 300 years later are generally acknowledged
to be of inferior authority.
Many books written 300 years later appear to have a specific
axe to grind, and a doctrine to push.
Mohammed specifically wanted to discredit Christianity AND
Judaism, and likely would have resented any claims his
book was "from the Judeo-Christian perspective."
AND it was written centuries after the "other gospels".
That the Koran claims the Gospels have it wrong is no
surprise to me, neither does it impress me.
"The Da Vinci Code" and "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" claimed
the Gospels have it wrong as well. However, since they're
centuries too late to be party to the events, AND they've
their own agendas to push, they don't impress me either.
So, that ANY book written centuries later can claim Judas
was crucified, slipped in a tub and broke his neck,
or was run over by a team of racing camels
all strike me as NON-ISSUES.
I mean, I can write a book saying he was pushed out a
window. Because my book would be in
"the Judeo-Christian tradition", would that make my
book authoritative?]
[Or maybe it was invented in the intervening centuries bysomeone who didn't like the Biblical accounts.]
[i do agree that attempting to harmonize the accounts in the Gospels and
Acts 1 is a good idea.
Either they fit together and are one event,
or they do not fit together, and one describes Judas' death
and the other only looks like it does.]
[i'll agree. I find it the least bit strange.
I'll keep that one filed next to my questions on the grapegatherers,
which also strikes me as strange.]
[You noted that YOU would expect it.
Me, I would "expect" a more thorough account of the hard sciences
in the Bible. Looks like we were both disappointed.
You can always lodge a complaint with God Almighty-
after all, He didn't consult YOUR opinion before setting things in motion.
("If you want to know what God thinks of your opinion,
just ask yourself when the last time He asked you for it was...")
Priorities can differ between a dozen cultures across 20 centuries.
What seems "a glaring" omission to you can seem superfluous
to include to someone 2000 years ago. You're reading THEIR
texts with YOUR mindset, and see a disparity.
This is a surprise?
There's hefty debate over the US Constitution and the Bill
of Rights, and that's only 200 years old and in the same country!]
[if you don't trust the Gospel accounts of the eyewitnesses and those
who interacted directly with the eyewitnesses,
whether or not you think the Gospels are God-breathed,
what makes you think that speculation centuries later
is any more reliable?]
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templelady
What part of "My conclusion, by no means unchangeable and NOT LDS theology, since I am still working through this whole concept" Is unclear??
Somehow what I proposed as a possibility has been turned into the equivalent of "Templelady believes it to be the gospel truth"
You don't like the my theory fine, I understand your reasons
But lets not throw the baby out with the bathwater OKAY??
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templelady
It is all well and good to say I don't know what I'm talking about
Okay I don;t know what I'm talking about
But how
If Judas didn't die by crucifixion how did he fall headfirst onto the ground after being Hung??
Would have to circumvent the laws of gravity to do that
That's what I would like an answer to Please
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CM
too literal here i think
think of the figurative
of Acts and
Matthew
which btw Matthew is coming under much scrutiny lately
but one thing for sure and is more important then Judas
Go to the source, Christ within
it matters not what Judas did afterwards really
what matters is what we do
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WordWolf
I said I thought it was a good idea-
not that I have arrived at the answer.
My current thinking, pending a better explanation,
is that Judas Iscariot died from a successful suicide attempt.
Frankly, that's as much detail as I really need.
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GarthP2000
Now this discussion/'rant' between Wordwolf and Mo is one of the classic reasons why I have disgarded the authority based faith of religion, and went over to independent freethought. ('hard sciences' in the Bible? :blink: ) Apparently Wordwolf is miffed that Mo is raising these kinds of questions, and treats them as tho' she's going straight to the Throne of God, and having the mitigated *gaul* of saying "I have a bone to pick with you!"
((shakes my head)) You guys are a riot! :lol:
(we now head back to our regularly scheduled Gospel of Judas.)
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templelady
Okay I have sat and thought about this overnight
I accept that it is highly unlikely that the apostles themselves were involved IF Judas was crucified.
So my answer is I don;t know who would have crucified Judas
BUT (knew there had to be one of those
)
I still think that The description of Judas' death makes crucifixion possibility, and I really can't see how one could crucify themselves.
As t why this matters-The Bible is two books in one
A book of Divine revelation
And A book of history
I like my history to make sense--event though it often doesn't in the Bible and elsewhere, I like it too
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templelady
Interesting- no mention of hanging here
Almost as if he fell from a rock face into his field
Curiouser and curiouser
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Goey
Mo,
You asked:
I will try to answer that. Here is the text:First, the scripture here does not say head-first - it says headlong.
"Falling headlong" in the text is prênês genomenos . Prenes means face-down and genemenos means "came to be". -- Genemenos never means "to fall" physically, as from a higher place to a lower one. That would be the Greek "pipto".
So what this verse is saying, if I can paraphrase, is that Judas came to be "face-down." It does not mean he fell head-first, although the KJ translation might seem to suggest that.
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