There is no question in my mind that VPW was of questionable moral character. For the record, I am not interested in defending or justifying his life. It ain't my job.
But, my opinion, based on my own personal experience of him, and I admit, the personal experience of close family members with him, is that there were times when he wanted to "help" people. I think he did have "moments of clarity" when he did "minister" to people genuinely. They might have been few and far between, but I think they existed.
I think he was a man, like I've stated before, had a "gift" and the potential to be far, far greater than he was. So for me, there is a HUGE lesson to be learned, somewhere here. I'm still looking for the bits and pieces of it, I admit.
But I think VPW is an example of a tremendous failure. Because he could have done so much for the Lord, but he allowed sin to permeate just about every aspect of his life, and who he was. That's the fascinating point to me. He compromised, big time. And I don't think he is the only "minister" to do so. That's the value, to me, in untangling the knot. And figuring out how someone so talented, (is that the right word? I don't know) could end up devastating so many people.
I think the greater one's potential is for doing good, the greater one's potential for wreaking evil can be.
If I'm not making sense, please feel free to ignore me.
VP Weirwille seemed to have some tainted thinking very early on.
Since most of his ‘works’ were not really his own, but a compilation of things he’d been exposed to, it makes me question his honor.
Now, if he would have been honest from the start, and gave credit where credit was due, the story about him today probably would be lovely…blameless, without reproach.
"OK, so VP did good and he also sinned. I have no problem with this concept. What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
They can list his sins from here to the bema and beyond for all I care: PFAL made my life meaningful."
CK jubilantly responded with:
"You have said it all, this is what I have wanted to say all along and couldn't find the words.
I think you have done a wonderful job showing what the thread and post are like around here ..."
I replied tomyour post with:
"Yours is is a typical example of a VPW/PFAL follower (adorer?) intentionally and unnecessarily misrepresenting what is being said here about VPW/PFAL by the majority of posters and using an out-of-context scripture to make an eroneous conclusion.
Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?"
Johniam Repsonds:
You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names?
I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP. On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.
And later:
"Goey, if you want to "demand" anything from me, get a subpoena. I have no time for your silliness. The only one with blinders on is YOU!"
Then to EX10 you said:
"That's beautiful! Not disingenuous.
VP did good AND VP sinned. That's all I've said.
Johniam, you said a lot more than that. I'll refresh your memory:
"OK, so VP did good and he also sinned. I have no problem with this concept. What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good. They can list his sins from here to the bema and beyond for all I care: PFAL made my life meaningful."
You said that. Now if you can't even "recall" what you said, how can trust yoruself to recall what anyone else said? But forget that.
What I really wanted to do was show the lengths that "some" VPW defenders will go to to discredit what we are doing here at GS. You have provided some good examples.
Make a claim - then refuse to support the claim.
Deny the claim - "thats all I've said"
Ad hominen attacks
Quit and refuse to "argue".
This pretty much adds up to what I call intellectual dishonesty. It seems to be a recurring theme among "some" VPW defenders. But, I ask the question, what is that motivates a person to go to such unnecessary lengths to defend VPW Why would someone be intellectually dishonest in defending what he believes to be the truth? It is a paradox.
The current poll shows 3 people who think "VPW did no good". But .... not because he "sinned" but becase these 3 believed he was a complete fraud. So far NO ONE has voted for "vpw sinned, and therefore he did no good". which BTW is YOUR premise "in a nut shell"
Granted this is a small sampling of the GS population. But don't you think that if so "many" here believed as you say they do that at least one person would have voted for that? If these "many" folks are not ashamed to "attack" VPW for all to see then why wouldn't they vote for what they believed ? They have no reason to lie since the poll is anonymous.
The top vote getter was : "vpw sinned a lot, and it affected all aspects of his ministry, in greater or lesser ways"
Next was: "vpw sinned quite a bit, and it affected his doctrine, policies, practices, etc, quite a bit"
These add up to about 85 percent of those who responded.
Personally, on that day when my hair is not behaving , and I look fatter than normal and there is a zit on my nose, I think a burka would be really useful for that quick trip to grocery store! :)
VPW Sinned
His sins were far reaching
Whether he ever did any good in his life I'm not qualified to speak to
ever is a long time and everyone manages to some good in their lives, even if by accident--
But for this topic
The Bad he did, the pain his actions caused both then and now significantly call into question whether any good he may have done is sufficient to offset the bad.
But thankfully I don't have to make that decision, God does
Personally, on that day when my hair is not behaving , and I look fatter than normal and there is a zit on my nose, I think a burka would be really useful for that quick trip to grocery store! :)
VPW Sinned
His sins were far reaching
& not funny at all
All sin is NOT the same!
Does the Bible have this response to going a little too fast on the freeway? -
Jer 23:1 Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.
Jer 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
VP's sins have broken up his family and many others. It drove his children from their mother, and many husbands from their wives. Children lost their family unit, and some people died!
There are a few morons that would NEVER consider VP's sins... they enjoy living in their dream world~ it's more comfortable for them... but observing their lifestyle, they too are harsh and ignorant when it comes to loving people & really living life.
I must have missed the death threats, of course we all know Socks types in code. It's that or someone's judgement is all screwed up and their judgements aren't to be trusted.
I'm not even sure what that means. Can you decode?
If stating a preference for something that's important to me makes me a zealot and perceived as the same as soneone who would make a death threat, I have to assume you're kidding Dan, as that's rediculous. If you're not kidding and this pretty civil discussion has been taken that way - I have no idea what to say. Except to say no one's responded with anything resembling the kind of zealotry that it's being compared to, no one's suggesting people wear religious garments for any reason, or riot in the streets. My comments aren't comparable to demanding that images be removed, never to be seen or made again, or that people don't have the right to free speech and free expression, within the boundaries of the laws that govern us all. To even see the words death threats, or a comparison to uptight zealots demonstating overseas is so outlandish to me, it's funny. So, if it's a joke, I get it. If it's anything else, it's crazy. Code for nuts.
It does strike me as funny thout that there's comments going that way. From my view it reminds me of extreme prejudice, that a differing opinion gets dammed by association to things it's not associate to at all.
Now even if VPW did sin and taught those are two seperate things. When a man/women teaches with the love of god in the renewed mind then he/she is right. When the same teacher sins, as long as the teacher gets forgiven by God, the sin is no longer remembered so it says in the bible. Then the teacher is spirtually correct. So you who have not sinned you my cast the first stone. While no person is sin free (except Jesus Christ) therefore there should be no stones thrown.
Goey
Many have said VPW did not good because this is a VPW bashing site, so I would not be surprised if it were 95% of the people here.
Therefore VPW "might" have done wrong he did right also.
I'm not even sure what that means. Can you decode?
If stating a preference for something that's important to me makes me a zealot and perceived as the same as soneone who would make a death threat, I have to assume you're kidding Dan, as that's rediculous. If you're not kidding and this pretty civil discussion has been taken that way - I have no idea what to say. Except to say no one's responded with anything resembling the kind of zealotry that it's being compared to, no one's suggesting people wear religious garments for any reason, or riot in the streets. My comments aren't comparable to demanding that images be removed
It's funny Socks, but you were furthest from my mind when I wrote my comments (sorry, I walked into this bar kind of late the other night). I was specifically reacting to those who responded (rather emphatically, I might add) to my posting to the effect that people needed to loosen up in the "sense of humor" department.
I'm done apologizing for every jot or tittle I raise in this forum, as I have seemingly done in the past.
It does get later as the time goes by, of this I've learned and seen, nearly daily Dan. No apologizing is expected or due.
I feel a funny coming on.
Man goes into a bar, says "Bob, gimme a beer, and make it fast!"
Bartender Bob looks up and shrugs, takes his towel and tosses it over his shoulder. Puts up the "BE BACK" sign and heads out the back door. Everyone starts to wonder where he went after a few minutes , than an hour goes by, then finally the waitress starts serving drinks, calls for backup and by closing time nobody knows where the bartender went, but the waitresses have had a ball tending bar, puttin' 'em down and laying them out all night. Place closes, and next day Bob's a no-show. Goes on for a week, sign goes up "Bartender needed-Apply Within" and soon enough, Stanley's hired and on the job.
Friday, who shows up at the back door but Bob, who walks in, throws his towel down on the bar and hauls up a big box filled with bottles of beer, freshly capped and packed. He wipes his forehead and pulls one out and looks out at the bar and says "Where's the guy who wanted the beer?"
Waitress walks over and says "Bob! Where have you been? It's been 2 weeks since that guy was in here!" Bob looks confused and says "Well, that's pretty fast for makin' beer!"
I think it's real simple, reality sometimes sucks, denial is worse.
I wish all these facts about TWI and VPW were not true, but I think they are.
Most of my feelings for TWI and VPW were beautiful and came from a need in me to have a father figure and a family that was better then what I was born into.
My need was an illusion how I felt going to twig was my own feelings I felt good about it because I wanted to it wasn't any more real then the sci-fi books I read at the time. The altruistic angle VP played was a front, the Utopian society he built, a sham. The only thing that's stopping us from recreating something better is because we believe it can't be done. Well to that I conceed, maybe we can't but we all seem to know the issues we all seem to agree that what we saw felt and experienced was awesome, and many were crushed when it fell. But in the end all I ever really had was my own concept of what was happening, 99% of my experience was between my ears, most physicists would say it's 100% between my ears. It's hard to explain but everything I thought I had because of TWI I know today the truth. The truth is this, if I never would have been involved with TWI, those feelings and experiances would still have happened, it's called life.
In the end I believe we would not be arguing this point if we were talking about Hitler. Ask any German who was a school child in Nazi Germany during the early 1940's and they would say they really loved the man. Because that's how they were taught.
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WordWolf
http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-who1.htm
http://www.listeninglib.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=20000512
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George Aar
Allan W.
My, getting a little cranky are we? Shorts riding up on you again?
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ex10
There is no question in my mind that VPW was of questionable moral character. For the record, I am not interested in defending or justifying his life. It ain't my job.
But, my opinion, based on my own personal experience of him, and I admit, the personal experience of close family members with him, is that there were times when he wanted to "help" people. I think he did have "moments of clarity" when he did "minister" to people genuinely. They might have been few and far between, but I think they existed.
I think he was a man, like I've stated before, had a "gift" and the potential to be far, far greater than he was. So for me, there is a HUGE lesson to be learned, somewhere here. I'm still looking for the bits and pieces of it, I admit.
But I think VPW is an example of a tremendous failure. Because he could have done so much for the Lord, but he allowed sin to permeate just about every aspect of his life, and who he was. That's the fascinating point to me. He compromised, big time. And I don't think he is the only "minister" to do so. That's the value, to me, in untangling the knot. And figuring out how someone so talented, (is that the right word? I don't know) could end up devastating so many people.
I think the greater one's potential is for doing good, the greater one's potential for wreaking evil can be.
If I'm not making sense, please feel free to ignore me.
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Tom Strange
That makes complete sense to me... of course that aspect of it (making sense to me) could be scary.
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johniam
quote: Goey called you on it, and asked where these "MANY" people are.
With no documentation, the evidence supports the idea that you
just pulled this claim out of your burro.
It's plain for all to see; if you and others want to pretend to be in denial about it, fine. But I refuse to argue about it.
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WhiteDove
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SafariVista
VP Weirwille seemed to have some tainted thinking very early on.
Since most of his ‘works’ were not really his own, but a compilation of things he’d been exposed to, it makes me question his honor.
Now, if he would have been honest from the start, and gave credit where credit was due, the story about him today probably would be lovely…blameless, without reproach.
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allan w.
George...I'd rather have 'high-riders' than wear my undies over my head !!
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Goey
Johniam,
You First Posted on this thread:
CK jubilantly responded with:
I replied tomyour post with:
Johniam Repsonds:
And later:
Then to EX10 you said:
Johniam, you said a lot more than that. I'll refresh your memory:
You said that. Now if you can't even "recall" what you said, how can trust yoruself to recall what anyone else said? But forget that.
What I really wanted to do was show the lengths that "some" VPW defenders will go to to discredit what we are doing here at GS. You have provided some good examples.
Make a claim - then refuse to support the claim.
Deny the claim - "thats all I've said"
Ad hominen attacks
Quit and refuse to "argue".
This pretty much adds up to what I call intellectual dishonesty. It seems to be a recurring theme among "some" VPW defenders. But, I ask the question, what is that motivates a person to go to such unnecessary lengths to defend VPW Why would someone be intellectually dishonest in defending what he believes to be the truth? It is a paradox.
The current poll shows 3 people who think "VPW did no good". But .... not because he "sinned" but becase these 3 believed he was a complete fraud. So far NO ONE has voted for "vpw sinned, and therefore he did no good". which BTW is YOUR premise "in a nut shell"
Granted this is a small sampling of the GS population. But don't you think that if so "many" here believed as you say they do that at least one person would have voted for that? If these "many" folks are not ashamed to "attack" VPW for all to see then why wouldn't they vote for what they believed ? They have no reason to lie since the poll is anonymous.
The top vote getter was : "vpw sinned a lot, and it affected all aspects of his ministry, in greater or lesser ways"
Next was: "vpw sinned quite a bit, and it affected his doctrine, policies, practices, etc, quite a bit"
These add up to about 85 percent of those who responded.
Johniam, I truly hope you rethink your premise.
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allan w.
David...is that a giant toothbrush that woman is carrying ?!
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dmiller
Could be, Allan -- I don't know! :D
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templelady
Personally, on that day when my hair is not behaving , and I look fatter than normal and there is a zit on my nose, I think a burka would be really useful for that quick trip to grocery store! :)
VPW Sinned
His sins were far reaching
Whether he ever did any good in his life I'm not qualified to speak to
ever is a long time and everyone manages to some good in their lives, even if by accident--
But for this topic
The Bad he did, the pain his actions caused both then and now significantly call into question whether any good he may have done is sufficient to offset the bad.
But thankfully I don't have to make that decision, God does
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SafariVista
Funny
& not funny at all
All sin is NOT the same!
Does the Bible have this response to going a little too fast on the freeway? -
VP's sins have broken up his family and many others. It drove his children from their mother, and many husbands from their wives. Children lost their family unit, and some people died!
There are a few morons that would NEVER consider VP's sins... they enjoy living in their dream world~ it's more comfortable for them... but observing their lifestyle, they too are harsh and ignorant when it comes to loving people & really living life.
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socks
I'm not even sure what that means. Can you decode?
If stating a preference for something that's important to me makes me a zealot and perceived as the same as soneone who would make a death threat, I have to assume you're kidding Dan, as that's rediculous. If you're not kidding and this pretty civil discussion has been taken that way - I have no idea what to say. Except to say no one's responded with anything resembling the kind of zealotry that it's being compared to, no one's suggesting people wear religious garments for any reason, or riot in the streets. My comments aren't comparable to demanding that images be removed, never to be seen or made again, or that people don't have the right to free speech and free expression, within the boundaries of the laws that govern us all. To even see the words death threats, or a comparison to uptight zealots demonstating overseas is so outlandish to me, it's funny.
So, if it's a joke, I get it. If it's anything else, it's crazy. Code for nuts.
It does strike me as funny thout that there's comments going that way. From my view it reminds me of extreme prejudice, that a differing opinion gets dammed by association to things it's not associate to at all.
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ckmkeon
Goey
Now even if VPW did sin and taught those are two seperate things. When a man/women teaches with the love of god in the renewed mind then he/she is right. When the same teacher sins, as long as the teacher gets forgiven by God, the sin is no longer remembered so it says in the bible. Then the teacher is spirtually correct. So you who have not sinned you my cast the first stone. While no person is sin free (except Jesus Christ) therefore there should be no stones thrown.
Goey
Many have said VPW did not good because this is a VPW bashing site, so I would not be surprised if it were 95% of the people here.
Therefore VPW "might" have done wrong he did right also.
CK
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Tom Strange
ckmkeon... you're one seriously mixed up kid...
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ckmkeon
Well I am glad to hear your opinion I am sure you will not be the last one to say that.
CK
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Tom Strange
well... there is hope for you... you'll be amazed at how much the world changes in your next three or four years...
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TheInvisibleDan
It's funny Socks, but you were furthest from my mind when I wrote my comments (sorry, I walked into this bar kind of late the other night). I was specifically reacting to those who responded (rather emphatically, I might add) to my posting to the effect that people needed to loosen up in the "sense of humor" department.
I'm done apologizing for every jot or tittle I raise in this forum, as I have seemingly done in the past.
Screw you guys.
Danny
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TheInvisibleDan
Who is it that once said (to the effect):
"Sacred cows make for the tastiest hamburgers"
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socks
It does get later as the time goes by, of this I've learned and seen, nearly daily Dan. No apologizing is expected or due.
I feel a funny coming on.
Man goes into a bar, says "Bob, gimme a beer, and make it fast!"
Bartender Bob looks up and shrugs, takes his towel and tosses it over his shoulder. Puts up the "BE BACK" sign and heads out the back door. Everyone starts to wonder where he went after a few minutes , than an hour goes by, then finally the waitress starts serving drinks, calls for backup and by closing time nobody knows where the bartender went, but the waitresses have had a ball tending bar, puttin' 'em down and laying them out all night. Place closes, and next day Bob's a no-show. Goes on for a week, sign goes up "Bartender needed-Apply Within" and soon enough, Stanley's hired and on the job.
Friday, who shows up at the back door but Bob, who walks in, throws his towel down on the bar and hauls up a big box filled with bottles of beer, freshly capped and packed. He wipes his forehead and pulls one out and looks out at the bar and says "Where's the guy who wanted the beer?"
Waitress walks over and says "Bob! Where have you been? It's been 2 weeks since that guy was in here!" Bob looks confused and says "Well, that's pretty fast for makin' beer!"
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Seth R.
I think it's real simple, reality sometimes sucks, denial is worse.
I wish all these facts about TWI and VPW were not true, but I think they are.
Most of my feelings for TWI and VPW were beautiful and came from a need in me to have a father figure and a family that was better then what I was born into.
My need was an illusion how I felt going to twig was my own feelings I felt good about it because I wanted to it wasn't any more real then the sci-fi books I read at the time. The altruistic angle VP played was a front, the Utopian society he built, a sham. The only thing that's stopping us from recreating something better is because we believe it can't be done. Well to that I conceed, maybe we can't but we all seem to know the issues we all seem to agree that what we saw felt and experienced was awesome, and many were crushed when it fell. But in the end all I ever really had was my own concept of what was happening, 99% of my experience was between my ears, most physicists would say it's 100% between my ears. It's hard to explain but everything I thought I had because of TWI I know today the truth. The truth is this, if I never would have been involved with TWI, those feelings and experiances would still have happened, it's called life.
In the end I believe we would not be arguing this point if we were talking about Hitler. Ask any German who was a school child in Nazi Germany during the early 1940's and they would say they really loved the man. Because that's how they were taught.
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rascal
Brilliant Seth...Just brilliant
It was all an illusion that we wanted so badly to believe that we tried to make it a reality :(
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Zixar
And our believing did not turn into our receiving. Rats. I thought it was a Law.
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