You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names?
You say I 'speak with a forked- tongue" for using "vast majority" while challengening your "many". Then you exhonorate me with you own inconsistency. You claim 20 out of 100, and then mention only 3 as "many", yet still providing no real examples. -- That leaves either 80 or 97, depending upon how you slice it . I think that both 80 or 97 out of 100 could reasonably be called a vast majority.
Do you know how stupid that makes your accusation look?
I want examples supporting your "nutshell" argument. Give us posts from these "many" that have said that "VPW did no good". If "many" said it then there should be many posts. What you have done is presume that speaking out against VPW's abuses is the same as "saying he did no good". An errant assumption born of intentional ignorance.
I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP.
I have on quite a few occasions.You can't recall it beacuse you "see" with blinders that prevents it. In any case, I am not here to post the positives. This site it not about the positives, although "many" myself included have and do post positives about VPW and their time in TWI. And unlike you, I can provide examples if I need to.
On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.
That's it? -- Me, Rascal and Ex10 , who you admit as said positives? -- This is your many? --- This is what you base your sweeping generalization on ? -- So then, your "many" consists of me, beacuse you "can't reacall" me posting anything positive, Rascal as a an "extreme example", and Ex10 (who you freely admit has posted positives more than once)?
Johniam, do you know how stupid that makes your argument look ?
No, VP taught a false, egocentric doctrine that led thousands down the road of idolatry. His sins were a by-product of that false doctrine.
This is not only a condemnation of Wierwille, but thousands who are being falsely accused of idolatry.
What Mark said is a condemnation of the teachings of vpw.
If people follow teachings that lead to idolatry, and they hang onto those teachings and hold to the beliefs of those teachings, then they are idolators.
The condemnation of idolators is a basic biblical concept.
Unless, of course, one follows idolatrous teachings that lead one to think that grace negates all punishment, judgment and condemnation in the bible...
No marvel, for Satans ministers are transformed into angels of light...
Where do you think, in this day and age, Satan's ministers are teaching? They are teaching in the churches, they are your pastors, Revs., Fathers, Ph.D., or whatever title you want to call them. (Note, I did not say all).
They are there, to lead you away from Christ and fellowship with God by use of the scripture. Why, after looking at the fruits of TWI and VP's doctrine, and TWI's barreness, and dryness today, would anyone, with any kind of spiritual and discernment and eyes to see, how could they not see the VP was a wolf? Or, as some other who defend him seem to think, an angel of light?
Your blanket once-size-fits all condemnation of thousands of people is ungodly.
Oldies,
It's not a blanket one-size-fits-all condemnation.
It's not even a condemnation (if you read what was written) of thousands of people.
It is a condemnation of the teachings put forward by VP. In fact, it's the most merciful statement that I could possibly make about him (the sins were a by-product of the teaching).
It is a statement that thousands (including, I dare say, all of us reading this, at least for a time) were tricked (note the words "tricked" and "led ... down the road...") into believing that garbage.
It is a statement that the "sins" were the by-product of the teachings. Many people may or may not agree with me, but that's life.
Oh well, since Mark is a prophet and he says thousands in twi are tricked into idolatry who am I to argue?
I'm glad your God is the real one Coolwaters.
God bless you.
It doesn't take a prophet to recognize the obvious, oldies.
... It is a statement that thousands (including, I dare say, all of us reading this, at least for a time) were tricked (note the words "tricked" and "led ... down the road...") into believing that garbage.
You can speak for yourself Mark, but certainly not for me and thousands of others.
(Yeah...I've been eating brownies in the conspiracy thread in Open...but this isn't really off topic if you think about it...and who's saying what on this thread...and about who and what is being discussed...)
Those of us who love Beavis and Butthead, King of the Hill, The Simpsons, Futurama, Arrested Development, etc., are vindicated!
One of the earliest examples of double entendre in American culture was the late 19th-century vaudeville act, the Barrison Sisters. They danced, raising their skirts slightly and asking the audience: "Would you like to see my wimp?" After an enthusiastic response, they would raise up their skirts, revealing live kittens secured over their crotches.
In the British comic book Viz there runs a cartoon strip entitled "Finbarr Saunders and his Double Entendres", about a youngster who enjoys double entendres. Immediately after hearing someone crack a double entendre, Finbarr knowingly sniggers "Fnarr fnarr!". This strip often inverts the concept of double entendre, with lines that are apparently blatantly sexual, but which can be interpreted quite innocently.
Similarly, the cartoon characters Beavis and Butt-head frequently note double entendres of the most trivial kind, based on single words with sexual meaning.
In one incident, a ranger's voiceover at a petrified forest exhibit says "You're probably wondering: How could wood get so hard?"; the two respond "huh-huh, he said wood; huh-huh". The humor in this particular sequence comes from the fact that double entendres are usually intentional, whereas Beavis or Butt-head infer them when they were not intentional at all on the part of the speaker. (The humor is intensified by ignoring the more specific, longer--and possibly intentional--double entendre in the ranger's sentence). This is a sort of reverse form of what is sometimes called the single entendre; a joke which is intended to sound like a double entendre, but which has no reasonable non-lascivious meaning, whether this is intentional on the part of the speaker, or because they tried to create a double entendre, but failed.
Double entendres are also used in an episode of the popular animation show King of the Hill (which is made by the same people as Beavis and Butt-head). When the new employee, Rich, at Strickland Propane constantly makes jokes at Hank Hill's expense, Hank considers a sexual harassment lawsuit. One of the situations is Hank saying, "I need an eight inch L pipe" and Rich exclaiming in response, "That's what she said." In this situation, Rich is taking a seemingly innocent remark and changing it into a comment a woman might make in sexual context. Another example is Hank saying to Buck Strickland, "I'm glad you're behind me" and Rich again saying "That's what she said." The episode of the animated sitcom Futurama "Spanish Fry" Has Bender treating comments made by Fry in a similar manner (e.g. "I pulled it out!" "just like at the movie theatre, wooo")
In the episode The Sweetest Apu of The Simpsons, Homer catches Apu cheating on his wife, Manjula. He tells Marge, who notes that tomorrow they are playing a match of doubles tennis with Apu and Manjula, and hopes they don't use any double entendres. The next day, Apu and Manjula, by pure chance, make many comments about the tennis match that also describe Apu's affair.
A more recent example of the usage of double entendres outside the British context is the American sitcom Arrested Development. The lead character, Michael Bluth, is often led into scenarios of misunderstanding due to his misinterpretations of double entendres. One such episode was when his British girlfriend called him a "wimp" as a term of endearment, which he misinterpreted as her thinking he was lacking in masculinity.
Another classic double entendre is the title of The Bellamy Brothers' song "If I Said You Had a Beautiful Body, Would You Hold It Against Me?", where "it" is referring to either the statement or the body in question.
So there you have it, folks!
All we need to do is take this thread (and others like it), use it as a sitcom script, and we'll all get rich quick!
Some Definitions by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
Bold added by me.
i·dol·a·try Pronunciation (-dl-tr)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries
1. Worship of idols.
2. Blind or excessive devotion to something.
I think # 2 fits some folks quite well. We may have some good example here of blind or excessive devotion to "something" (or somebody). key words are blind and excessive
----------------------------------
wor·ship Pronunciation (wûrshp)
n.
1.
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships
v.tr.
1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.
# 2 could apply to those who dovote their lives to the teachings of a man, or to that of a book.
---------------------------------
bib·li·ol·a·try Pronunciation (bbl-l-tr)
n.
1. Excessive adherence to a literal interpretation of the Bible.
2. Extreme devotion to or concern with books.
# 2 -- bibliotory could be used of someone that exhibited extremedevotion to a certain book or set of books. (book worship - a form of idolotry)
It's not a blanket one-size-fits-all condemnation.
It's not even a condemnation (if you read what was written) of thousands of people.
It is a condemnation of the teachings put forward by VP. In fact, it's the most merciful statement that I could possibly make about him (the sins were a by-product of the teaching).
It is a statement that thousands (including, I dare say, all of us reading this, at least for a time) were tricked (note the words "tricked" and "led ... down the road...") into believing that garbage.
It is a statement that the "sins" were the by-product of the teachings. Many people may or may not agree with me, but that's life.
You can speak for yourself Mark, but certainly not for me and thousands of others.
Yeah I disagree, and God bless you too.
I don't need to speak for you and thousands of others. It is an objective statement of fact.
OK, wait stop, hold the phone. My name has been mentioned here, so I feel the need to clarify something.
I firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life.
I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth?
I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life.
quote: Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?
You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names?
I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP. On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.
cornhole vic was a male slut i saw it with my own eyes
Edited by coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
What can be tackier than taking an image that millions hold to be sacred - the crucifixion of Christ - and use it in such a way to make a point, a point that's marginal at best in the context of a discussion on "persecution"?
It's a perfect example of how a person will stretch the boundaries of decency and respect when it somes to - VPW or the Way or anything to do with any of it. Right outta the gate, all bets are off. Nothing's too low or too nasty if it denigrates any or all of that. Is that it? Time for a heart check. Still ticking. That's a relief.
Sorry Mark. It's a free country though. I'm surprised. I don't consider myself to be superstitious, despite what others might consider my Christian faith, but on the other hand I don't spit in the wind either, if I can help it. Has nothing to do with VPW, a lot to do with Jesus Christ. Don't be insulted, but I'm going to stand over.........here.
I have to agree with Linda and some other posters about that pic you have of VPW hanging on a cross, or Jesus' body and VPW's face. That is entirely inappropriate even for this site. It stands insulting to the crucifixion of Christ. Words would have been better used to drive home the point. It's hard to accept the point you were making with it.
Would you do us all a favor and please exercise some self-censorship and remove the offending post?
Would one post a picture of one's mother or father hanging from a cross and mock it? I could ask that it especially not be done of our Savior. Also, it offends the Wierwille family shortly after facing the death of Dorothea Wierwille. They have enough grief.
There's the First Amendment, then there is the abuse of it.
It is legal to drink, and some get drunk and drive. It is legal to smoke and people die. It is legal to do what you did yet I cannot imagine the grief of those personally involved, if not the followers of Christ, then at least the children and grandchildren of VPW.
What can be tackier than taking an image that millions hold to be sacred - the crucifixion of Christ - and use it in such a way to make a point, a point that's marginal at best in the context of a discussion on "persecution"?
It's a perfect example of how a person will stretch the boundaries of decency and respect when it somes to - VPW or the Way or anything to do with any of it. Right outta the gate, all bets are off. Nothing's too low or too nasty if it denigrates any or all of that. Is that it? Time for a heart check. Still ticking. That's a relief.
Sorry Mark. It's a free country though. I'm surprised. I don't consider myself to be superstitious, despite what others might consider my Christian faith, but on the other hand I don't spit in the wind either, if I can help it. Has nothing to do with VPW, a lot to do with Jesus Christ. Don't be insulted, but I'm going to stand over.........here.
I'm bummed. But it'll pass.
Well, I'm sorry I've offended so many on this thread. I guess the face of VP superimposed on the body of Jim Caviezel is rather disturbing.
But when I saw this topic coming up, yet again, it brought to mind the words "The Passion of the VP"
And I will acknowledge that the collage is shocking. Yet it reveals the truth of the esteem with which some hold Mr. Wierwille.
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Goey
You say I 'speak with a forked- tongue" for using "vast majority" while challengening your "many". Then you exhonorate me with you own inconsistency. You claim 20 out of 100, and then mention only 3 as "many", yet still providing no real examples. -- That leaves either 80 or 97, depending upon how you slice it . I think that both 80 or 97 out of 100 could reasonably be called a vast majority.
Do you know how stupid that makes your accusation look?
I want examples supporting your "nutshell" argument. Give us posts from these "many" that have said that "VPW did no good". If "many" said it then there should be many posts. What you have done is presume that speaking out against VPW's abuses is the same as "saying he did no good". An errant assumption born of intentional ignorance.
I have on quite a few occasions.You can't recall it beacuse you "see" with blinders that prevents it. In any case, I am not here to post the positives. This site it not about the positives, although "many" myself included have and do post positives about VPW and their time in TWI. And unlike you, I can provide examples if I need to.That's it? -- Me, Rascal and Ex10 , who you admit as said positives? -- This is your many? --- This is what you base your sweeping generalization on ? -- So then, your "many" consists of me, beacuse you "can't reacall" me posting anything positive, Rascal as a an "extreme example", and Ex10 (who you freely admit has posted positives more than once)?
Johniam, do you know how stupid that makes your argument look ?
Edited by GoeyLink to comment
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oldiesman
This is not only a condemnation of Wierwille, but thousands who are being falsely accused of idolatry.
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markomalley
Here, oldies, let me help you out a little bit:
This is not only a condemnation of Wierwille, but thousands who were are being falsely accused of tricked into idolatry.
Edited by markomalleyLink to comment
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CoolWaters
What Mark said is a condemnation of the teachings of vpw.
If people follow teachings that lead to idolatry, and they hang onto those teachings and hold to the beliefs of those teachings, then they are idolators.
The condemnation of idolators is a basic biblical concept.
Unless, of course, one follows idolatrous teachings that lead one to think that grace negates all punishment, judgment and condemnation in the bible...
Edited by CoolWatersLink to comment
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Sunesis
No marvel, for Satans ministers are transformed into angels of light...
Where do you think, in this day and age, Satan's ministers are teaching? They are teaching in the churches, they are your pastors, Revs., Fathers, Ph.D., or whatever title you want to call them. (Note, I did not say all).
They are there, to lead you away from Christ and fellowship with God by use of the scripture. Why, after looking at the fruits of TWI and VP's doctrine, and TWI's barreness, and dryness today, would anyone, with any kind of spiritual and discernment and eyes to see, how could they not see the VP was a wolf? Or, as some other who defend him seem to think, an angel of light?
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Tom Strange
Didn't they "kick you out" OM?
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oldiesman
Still a false accusation Mark.
Your blanket once-size-fits all condemnation of thousands of people is ungodly.
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CoolWaters
OM, I'll bet you'd argue 'the word' with Elijah...and call him 'ungodly', too.
Exactly what god are you referring to when you say 'ungodly'?
I ask because the condemnation of idolators is one of the very basic messages of the bible...
::shrug::
Have you peeked under the sheepskin of your 'god' lately? I hear it's fake...
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oldiesman
No.
I was dismissed from the Way Corps but stayed in twi until 1991, when I stopped attending fellowship voluntarily.
But today, I wouldn't mind fellowshipping every once in a while if the fellowships weren't so far away.
These folks aren't devils, they are our brothers and sisters in Christ.
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CoolWaters
Pssst...hint here...I use 'sheepskin' as a double entendre...
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oldiesman
Oh well, since Mark is a prophet and he says thousands in twi are tricked into idolatry who am I to argue?
I'm glad your God is the real one Coolwaters.
God bless you.
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CoolWaters
Mark's a prophet????? Whoa! (Looking around for that little bowing emoticon....)
I'm glad my God is the real one, too. :)
TYVM for His blessing for me!
Right back atcha, dude.
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markomalley
Oldies,
It's not a blanket one-size-fits-all condemnation.
It's not even a condemnation (if you read what was written) of thousands of people.
It is a condemnation of the teachings put forward by VP. In fact, it's the most merciful statement that I could possibly make about him (the sins were a by-product of the teaching).
It is a statement that thousands (including, I dare say, all of us reading this, at least for a time) were tricked (note the words "tricked" and "led ... down the road...") into believing that garbage.
It is a statement that the "sins" were the by-product of the teachings. Many people may or may not agree with me, but that's life.
It doesn't take a prophet to recognize the obvious, oldies.
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oldiesman
You can speak for yourself Mark, but certainly not for me and thousands of others.
Yeah I disagree, and God bless you too.
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CoolWaters
Those of us who love Beavis and Butthead, King of the Hill, The Simpsons, Futurama, Arrested Development, etc., are vindicated!
From Wikipedia information on Double Entendre:
So there you have it, folks!
All we need to do is take this thread (and others like it), use it as a sitcom script, and we'll all get rich quick!
Whoa!
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Goey
Some Definitions by The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
Bold added by me.
i·dol·a·try Pronunciation (-dl-tr)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries
1. Worship of idols.
2. Blind or excessive devotion to something.
I think # 2 fits some folks quite well. We may have some good example here of blind or excessive devotion to "something" (or somebody). key words are blind and excessive
----------------------------------
wor·ship Pronunciation (wûrshp)
n.
1.
a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed.
2. Ardent devotion; adoration.
3. often Worship Chiefly British Used as a form of address for magistrates, mayors, and certain other dignitaries: Your Worship.
v. wor·shiped or wor·shipped, wor·ship·ing or wor·ship·ping, wor·ships
v.tr.
1. To honor and love as a deity.
2. To regard with ardent or adoring esteem or devotion. See Synonyms at revere1.
# 2 could apply to those who dovote their lives to the teachings of a man, or to that of a book.
---------------------------------
bib·li·ol·a·try Pronunciation (bbl-l-tr)
n.
1. Excessive adherence to a literal interpretation of the Bible.
2. Extreme devotion to or concern with books.
# 2 -- bibliotory could be used of someone that exhibited extreme devotion to a certain book or set of books. (book worship - a form of idolotry)
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markomalley
I don't need to speak for you and thousands of others. It is an objective statement of fact.
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ex10
OK, wait stop, hold the phone. My name has been mentioned here, so I feel the need to clarify something.
I firmly believe in only telling MY STORY, and nobody elses. VPW and the Mrs. were very kind and gracious to me. And that's the truth. I had experiences with VP that cause me to believe, that he was given a powerful "gift" ie "ministry" or whatever you want to call it. I think that he did hear the voice of God at certain times, and did have a powerful capacity to "minister" to people. But I also think he squandered it, by allowing SIN to permeate his life.
I don't minimize the damage he did to some of my friends. That's the paradox of WHO HE WAS. He could be wonderful, loving, kind, one minute, and mean, arrogant and intolerant the next. Is this any big mystery? Haven't we all had people like that in our lives? People we looked up to, who turned out to be dismally disappointing in ways that we were not aware of, in our naive youth?
I have very mixed feelings about VP and the Way. VP in specific, the Way in general. I had always tried to be honest in telling my story. If Johniam, or anybody else thinks that is disingenuous, then welcome to life.
Edited by ex10Link to comment
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
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socks
What's up widdat image????
What can be tackier than taking an image that millions hold to be sacred - the crucifixion of Christ - and use it in such a way to make a point, a point that's marginal at best in the context of a discussion on "persecution"?
It's a perfect example of how a person will stretch the boundaries of decency and respect when it somes to - VPW or the Way or anything to do with any of it. Right outta the gate, all bets are off. Nothing's too low or too nasty if it denigrates any or all of that. Is that it? Time for a heart check. Still ticking. That's a relief.
Sorry Mark. It's a free country though. I'm surprised. I don't consider myself to be superstitious, despite what others might consider my Christian faith, but on the other hand I don't spit in the wind either, if I can help it. Has nothing to do with VPW, a lot to do with Jesus Christ. Don't be insulted, but I'm going to stand over.........here.
I'm bummed. But it'll pass.
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Eagle
markomalley:
I have to agree with Linda and some other posters about that pic you have of VPW hanging on a cross, or Jesus' body and VPW's face. That is entirely inappropriate even for this site. It stands insulting to the crucifixion of Christ. Words would have been better used to drive home the point. It's hard to accept the point you were making with it.
Would you do us all a favor and please exercise some self-censorship and remove the offending post?
Would one post a picture of one's mother or father hanging from a cross and mock it? I could ask that it especially not be done of our Savior. Also, it offends the Wierwille family shortly after facing the death of Dorothea Wierwille. They have enough grief.
There's the First Amendment, then there is the abuse of it.
It is legal to drink, and some get drunk and drive. It is legal to smoke and people die. It is legal to do what you did yet I cannot imagine the grief of those personally involved, if not the followers of Christ, then at least the children and grandchildren of VPW.
It is up to you. God Bless.
Eagle
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markomalley
Well, I'm sorry I've offended so many on this thread. I guess the face of VP superimposed on the body of Jim Caviezel is rather disturbing.
But when I saw this topic coming up, yet again, it brought to mind the words "The Passion of the VP"
And I will acknowledge that the collage is shocking. Yet it reveals the truth of the esteem with which some hold Mr. Wierwille.
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ex10
Yeah, and I guess it's way..............more.............important............to ...........be..............right..............!
I'm sorry but I thought better of you. :wub:
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dmiller
And so do the many eloquent words you have used here as well.
The *collage* damages your credibility (IMO).
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