Persecution of all believers that believe in VPW right now.
CK
Believe me, CK, you evidently have NO idea what its like to be persecuted. Not in the least.
... unless you regard persecution to mean people saying things that you don't like, people treating your precciiiiooouussssss VPW like less than the Honorable Man of GOD you see him to be, openly speaking of his abuses that were beforehand hidden from public view due to the Lock Box concept, and the like.
..... mmmm, come to think of it, no. You have no idea of what REAL persecution is all about.
As others have pointed out, VPW is not being "persecuted" here. Persecution is the wrong word. What is going on here is that TWI is being exposed. The past and the present. The lockbox has been opened. In exposing TWI, VPW's actions have also been exposed, as well as those of other leaders that were or are a part of TWI.
There is no "IF" about many of the things that VPW did. Many eye-witnesses have provided the facts. They are only if's to those who refuse to consider verifiable facts and eyewitness testimony.
I know of no one here that is saying they are better than VPW because they "persecute him". That is what you are saying. You are wrong. You seem to think we are having fun and getting our jollies by lying about or trashing VPW. We are not. It is not fun telling the ugly truth about a man that most of us once deeply respected and looked up to for spiritual leadership.
Likewise, it is not fun finding out the truth, when the truth destroys what you have believed to be true for most of your life. It is a hard pill to swallow. No one wants to believe that they have been duped or have been believing a lies for years and years. No one wants to believe that the man they trusted to teach them the Word -- sexually abused (raped) women in the name of God. That he commited adultery with others. That the man they believed to be THE man of God, lied about snowstorms, lied about people, was mean-spirited, or that some of his teachings may be dead wrong.
To even consider these things is distastful because, if true , they might shatter the (false) image that we have built in our minds. To accept these things as true means that must also accept that WE were wrong and change our thinking and maybe even our behavior. Some people just can't do that. They would rather hold up their false image and continue in the deception than to accept the truth and change accordingly. You may be one of those people.
You are not the first to come here with with accusations of persecution, hatred, and bitterness. We have seen that numerous times since GS has been around. The arguments of those who refuse to believe the facts and make noise here are pretty predictable.
Refusal to even look at the facts.
Denial of the facts. (Nothing you say will convince me - it never happened)
Folks are accused of lying.
Folks are accused of being bitter.
Belittling the abuse. ( So what? At least he taught the accurate Word )
Blaming the victims. ( They were participants weren't they? It takes 2 to tango)
Accusations of persecution. (Why are you picking on me?)
And a common one - You should just "forgive" and move on.
All men sin. ( What the big deal about VPW?)
There are probably a few more. .
My point is, that VPW is not being "persecuted" here becasue we are a bunch of angry, bitter, unforgiving, VPW hating liars. And you are not being "persecuted" because you believe VPW's teachings.
What is going here is is telling the "other side" of the TWI story. This means the bad side. -- The facts behind the organization and therefore the facts behind the leaders including VPW. People who were there and experienced it have opened TWI's "lockbox" of dirty little secrets for all to see in the hope that it will help folks fully understand TWI, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Most are here to help ourselves or anyone else who wants to know the truth about TWI and it's leaders. There may niot be much help for you here.
Eccl 7:20 there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not.
OK, so VP did good and he also sinned. I have no problem with this concept. What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
They can list his sins from here to the bema and beyond for all I care: PFAL made my life meaningful.
Yours is is a typical example of a VPW/PFAL follower (adorer?) intentionally and unnecessarily misrepresenting what is being said here about VPW/PFAL by the majority of posters and using an out-of-context scripture to make an eroneous conclusion.
Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?
Eccl 7:20 there is not a just man upon earth that doeth good and sinneth not.
OK, so VP did good and he also sinned. I have no problem with this concept. What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
They can list his sins from here to the bema and beyond for all I care: PFAL made my life meaningful.
You have said it all, this is what I have wanted to say all along and couldn't find the words.
I think you have done a wonderful job showing what the thread and post are like around here
What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
Hmmm. I never said that.
But I agree that others have, and since they did so --
they must've had a reason for it.
After all -- these *accusations* don't just show up ---
like snow on some gas pumps in July, in Ohio --- eh??
What I do have a problem with is that many on GSC have a "string attached" to their attacks on VP. Their premise, in a nut shell, is VP sinned therefore he did no good.
In a "nut shell", this is b.s.
Can't address the actual arguments, so construct a strawman.
If it were a matter of VPW sinning, I think no one would care.
But it's a matter of VPW PREYING on the people who trusted him, and whether or not I can "forgive" that depends on first acknowledging it. VPW must have misunderstood that the Bible commands us to PRAY, not to PREY.
Sad... but VP's son Donald had cancer too. Not sure if cancer is the 'cause of death' on the death certificate.
It was something that was hidden from the General way population, a big 'hush-hush' situation. Just think... everyone could have been praying for Don... but... for what? To get rid of the devil spirit? That's what cancer was we were taught~
I recall asking a WC fellow I knew working at HQ, why Don and some other leaders were still 'allowed' to smoke, when all WC had to quit. (I asked the question as we watched Don sneak out the back of the Auditorium for a smoking/coughing stroll...)
I got a quick, 'that's a whole other story' response... but no answer.
Must have had something to do with the 'old original leaders' NOT being able to 'enter the promised land'... EVERYTHING was related to OT scripture Ridiculous!
I dispute A. I never heard him say cancer IS a devil spirit; rather that cancer is CAUSED by devil spirits. Personally, I believe that the first person who ever had cancer was possessed and those spirits used that person's body as a laboratory. This can still happen, but that's not why so many people get it. I have heard that animals in the wild NEVER get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. So the devil spirits must have figured out how to get cancer into the body from the outside, perhaps through the air, water, and food we ingest. Probably some "smart, educated" person "discovered" it like the idiot who made the killer bees.
I remember learning about Don's death online DAYS before it was ever mentioned within the walls of TWI. They also never mentioned that he died of cancer, either. Still very hush ~ hush about that. I doubt if many TWIts even know today that he died of cancer.
Even to this day my ex refuses to believe me when I tell him that vee pee died of cancer. I think the Moynihans have even lied to him about that.... <_< If they haven't out and out lied to him, they've definitely lied by omission and refusing to discuss it.
quote: Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?
You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names?
I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP. On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.
VPW & DEW had cancer and died from it. Don was traveling to Michigan for some time for treatments, being assisted by 'faithful' Branch Coordinators in Lansing...
The BC's wouldn't discuss much about it, except that no one should know~
What I find sickening is... some 'believers' will treat their body poorly, barely feeding it anything 'alive', and expect God to heal them from all sorts of things. One 'believer' we know, who's main diet for years has been cigarettes & coke (the cola)... has had black spots on his lungs & said God's healed him... CONTINUES the same diet :( He idolizes VP, and has LOTS to say about the 'word' in-between his coughing fits...
But then, there has been a RISE in taking care of yourself in TWI... eating right, running... writing all that down for your twig coordinator to check & see if you're doing all the 'stuff' that was 'recommended'...
I still want to know why some people have more of a problem with those who expose what VPW did than they ever had with what VPW did in the first place.
So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things.
quote:johniam, did you really mean to say that? PFAL did it? not God? or The Bible? but PFAL?
I've said this before. If VP, not the devil, did all that stuff, then, yes, PFAL made the difference. I concur that there are many possible man made organizations that could adequately accomodate someone's desire to have peace in their life and some knowledge of God, but PFAL was the one which accomodated ME. It wasn't just God or the bible, either; what about the people who blessed my life? They were involved too. There's people here who credit GSC for healing them. Same thing.
quote: So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things.
It's one thing to list a man's sins; it's another to spit in God's face. That's where this always seems to lead. If VP did no good then nothing he said about God was any good. But if it WAS good, then it's spitting in God's face to say that it wasn't. I just see a lot of people here instead of running to serve, they're running to be conformed to this world.
God: why did you become so hostile toward my people?
believer: it's VP's fault; he had SEX in the motorcoach!
It is mind blowing to me that people tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, a loved one, a friend , or a co-worker.
VPW could swill drambuie, aggressively pursue women, aggressively plagiarize, conceal and deceive people about his illness just to preserve the continuity of his "teachings" yet his supporters (and that is putting it kindly) don't care. But these same supporters would have 12 heart attacks if someone they knew behaved in this fashion ESPECIALLY if the person claimed to be a "teacher" or a "man of god". The better question to ask is why wouldn't someone be concerned about VPW's behavior especially since information about him was so lacking back in the day. For many it is only now that details relating to his behavior are emerging so why wouldn't it be reasonable to discuss it ?
No John, I think you have it confused. It was the PEOPLE. It was and always will be average "joe" believer that made up twi. People with a pure heart. Not vp who's heart was seared and who was in it for himself. Yes he taught some truth and that to this day is true but some of what he taught as truth ruined people. He KNEW it was not the truth and ruined peoples lives with his spoken words just to live high on the hog and do whatever he wanted. The truth you found in pfal is good and can be found beyond the walls of twi but not to many people as vp were able to live the lies that he got away with and not end up in jail for a very long time(perhaps life).
GSC on the other hand has no boundries except to respect other people. There again it is the PEOPLE that make up GSC. Can you imagine what twi would have been like if people were able to think and live their lives ie.Treat people with the love of God, buy a house, a new car, not have to give everything that was plurality and so many other things. twi is a place where people leave a heck of a lot worse in body, soul and mind (some never to recover) in some cases.
quote: So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things.
It's one thing to list a man's sins; it's another to spit in God's face. That's where this always seems to lead. If VP did no good then nothing he said about God was any good. But if it WAS good, then it's spitting in God's face to say that it wasn't. I just see a lot of people here instead of running to serve, they're running to be conformed to this world.
God: why did you become so hostile toward my people?
believer: it's VP's fault; he had SEX in the motorcoach!
God: what does that have to do with me?
believer: uh..
John it had nothing to do about the integrity of God and his Word with vp, that is the point you don't get. It was all vp and what he could get for himself.
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GarthP2000
Believe me, CK, you evidently have NO idea what its like to be persecuted. Not in the least.
... unless you regard persecution to mean people saying things that you don't like, people treating your precciiiiooouussssss VPW like less than the Honorable Man of GOD you see him to be, openly speaking of his abuses that were beforehand hidden from public view due to the Lock Box concept, and the like.
..... mmmm, come to think of it, no. You have no idea of what REAL persecution is all about.
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Goey
CK,
As others have pointed out, VPW is not being "persecuted" here. Persecution is the wrong word. What is going on here is that TWI is being exposed. The past and the present. The lockbox has been opened. In exposing TWI, VPW's actions have also been exposed, as well as those of other leaders that were or are a part of TWI.
There is no "IF" about many of the things that VPW did. Many eye-witnesses have provided the facts. They are only if's to those who refuse to consider verifiable facts and eyewitness testimony.
I know of no one here that is saying they are better than VPW because they "persecute him". That is what you are saying. You are wrong. You seem to think we are having fun and getting our jollies by lying about or trashing VPW. We are not. It is not fun telling the ugly truth about a man that most of us once deeply respected and looked up to for spiritual leadership.
Likewise, it is not fun finding out the truth, when the truth destroys what you have believed to be true for most of your life. It is a hard pill to swallow. No one wants to believe that they have been duped or have been believing a lies for years and years. No one wants to believe that the man they trusted to teach them the Word -- sexually abused (raped) women in the name of God. That he commited adultery with others. That the man they believed to be THE man of God, lied about snowstorms, lied about people, was mean-spirited, or that some of his teachings may be dead wrong.
To even consider these things is distastful because, if true , they might shatter the (false) image that we have built in our minds. To accept these things as true means that must also accept that WE were wrong and change our thinking and maybe even our behavior. Some people just can't do that. They would rather hold up their false image and continue in the deception than to accept the truth and change accordingly. You may be one of those people.
You are not the first to come here with with accusations of persecution, hatred, and bitterness. We have seen that numerous times since GS has been around. The arguments of those who refuse to believe the facts and make noise here are pretty predictable.
Refusal to even look at the facts.
Denial of the facts. (Nothing you say will convince me - it never happened)
Folks are accused of lying.
Folks are accused of being bitter.
Belittling the abuse. ( So what? At least he taught the accurate Word )
Blaming the victims. ( They were participants weren't they? It takes 2 to tango)
Accusations of persecution. (Why are you picking on me?)
And a common one - You should just "forgive" and move on.
All men sin. ( What the big deal about VPW?)
There are probably a few more. .
My point is, that VPW is not being "persecuted" here becasue we are a bunch of angry, bitter, unforgiving, VPW hating liars. And you are not being "persecuted" because you believe VPW's teachings.
What is going here is is telling the "other side" of the TWI story. This means the bad side. -- The facts behind the organization and therefore the facts behind the leaders including VPW. People who were there and experienced it have opened TWI's "lockbox" of dirty little secrets for all to see in the hope that it will help folks fully understand TWI, the good, the bad and the ugly.
Most are here to help ourselves or anyone else who wants to know the truth about TWI and it's leaders. There may niot be much help for you here.
-----------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------
.
.
Johniam, you posted:
Yours is is a typical example of a VPW/PFAL follower (adorer?) intentionally and unnecessarily misrepresenting what is being said here about VPW/PFAL by the majority of posters and using an out-of-context scripture to make an eroneous conclusion.
Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?
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Tom Strange
johniam, did you really mean to say that? PFAL did it? not God? or The Bible? but PFAL?
If that's really what you meant... you need to go hang out with Mike.
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ckmkeon
You have said it all, this is what I have wanted to say all along and couldn't find the words.
I think you have done a wonderful job showing what the thread and post are like around here
Godbless
CK
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Tom Strange
how sweet... ckmkeon's and johniam's opinions agree! ...that's all that really matters to you isn't it ckmkeon? that someone agrees with you...?
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dmiller
Hmmm. I never said that.
But I agree that others have, and since they did so --
they must've had a reason for it.
After all -- these *accusations* don't just show up ---
like snow on some gas pumps in July, in Ohio --- eh??
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Oakspear
Can't address the actual arguments, so construct a strawman.
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markomalley
No, VP taught a false, egocentric doctrine that led thousands down the road of idolatry. His sins were a by-product of that false doctrine.
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Raf
If it were a matter of VPW sinning, I think no one would care.
But it's a matter of VPW PREYING on the people who trusted him, and whether or not I can "forgive" that depends on first acknowledging it. VPW must have misunderstood that the Bible commands us to PRAY, not to PREY.
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Tom Strange
egg-salent point Raf... egg-salent point...
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diazbro
Is this a Batman reference ? Vincent Price's "EggHead" perhaps ? How egg-citing !
Perhaps VPW was just "egg-centric"
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CoolWaters
Yes! Well put, Mark. Thank you.
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Hills Bro
A = B
B = C
therfore
A = C
In his own words VPW said that:
A.Cancer was devil spirit possession
B. VPW died of cancer
therefore
C. VPW must have been possessed.
If you believe that VPW was The MAN of GOD then the equation above must fit like a hand in a glove for ya?
Works with a mathmatical exactness and scientific precision.
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SafariVista
Sad... but VP's son Donald had cancer too. Not sure if cancer is the 'cause of death' on the death certificate.
It was something that was hidden from the General way population, a big 'hush-hush' situation. Just think... everyone could have been praying for Don... but... for what? To get rid of the devil spirit? That's what cancer was we were taught~
I recall asking a WC fellow I knew working at HQ, why Don and some other leaders were still 'allowed' to smoke, when all WC had to quit. (I asked the question as we watched Don sneak out the back of the Auditorium for a smoking/coughing stroll...)
I got a quick, 'that's a whole other story' response... but no answer.
Must have had something to do with the 'old original leaders' NOT being able to 'enter the promised land'... EVERYTHING was related to OT scripture
Ridiculous!
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johniam
quote: In his own words VPW said that:
A.Cancer was devil spirit possession
B. VPW died of cancer
therefore
C. VPW must have been possessed.
I dispute A. I never heard him say cancer IS a devil spirit; rather that cancer is CAUSED by devil spirits. Personally, I believe that the first person who ever had cancer was possessed and those spirits used that person's body as a laboratory. This can still happen, but that's not why so many people get it. I have heard that animals in the wild NEVER get cancer, but animals in captivity get it all the time. So the devil spirits must have figured out how to get cancer into the body from the outside, perhaps through the air, water, and food we ingest. Probably some "smart, educated" person "discovered" it like the idiot who made the killer bees.
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Belle
I remember learning about Don's death online DAYS before it was ever mentioned within the walls of TWI. They also never mentioned that he died of cancer, either. Still very hush ~ hush about that. I doubt if many TWIts even know today that he died of cancer.
Even to this day my ex refuses to believe me when I tell him that vee pee died of cancer. I think the Moynihans have even lied to him about that.... <_< If they haven't out and out lied to him, they've definitely lied by omission and refusing to discuss it.
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johniam
quote: Jonhiam, where have "many" said that VPW "did no good" ? Provide examples please -- "Many" examples. You won't because you can't. Your adoration of VPW and PFAL has blinded you to what is really being said here by the vast majority. You hear through a distorted filter.
My guess is that there are about 100 or so regular posters of 1,694 members here at GS. How many is "many"? -- 1? maybe 2 or 3 ? -- And who are these "many"?
You speak with forked tongue. You use a phrase like "vast majority" yet chide me for "many". I think the word many is relative, though. The progression climbs from one, both or each, few, several, and then what? If we're talking about the whole population of the USA then you need millions of people to constitute "many", but on GSC I think 20 out of 100 regular posters is a "many". There are at least that many people here who have not one good thing to say about VP AND who act as though it is their moral duty to derail threads every time someone DOES say something that reflects positively or legitimately about VP. You want names?
I can't recall ever seeing you yourself post anything positive about VP. On the extreme side, I guess Rascal comes to mind. One time I recall her saying that she thought of VP as a "grandfatherly" something or other, but that's as close as she ever came. Just don't say "eternal security" around her. Ex10 is more likely than not to jump on the bash VP bandwagon, yet she has said positive things about him more than once.
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SafariVista
Well, for all the Lurkin' Innies~
VPW & DEW had cancer and died from it. Don was traveling to Michigan for some time for treatments, being assisted by 'faithful' Branch Coordinators in Lansing...
The BC's wouldn't discuss much about it, except that no one should know~
What I find sickening is... some 'believers' will treat their body poorly, barely feeding it anything 'alive', and expect God to heal them from all sorts of things. One 'believer' we know, who's main diet for years has been cigarettes & coke (the cola)... has had black spots on his lungs & said God's healed him... CONTINUES the same diet :( He idolizes VP, and has LOTS to say about the 'word' in-between his coughing fits...
But then, there has been a RISE in taking care of yourself in TWI... eating right, running... writing all that down for your twig coordinator to check & see if you're doing all the 'stuff' that was 'recommended'...
Frightening... very frightening~
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Raf
I still want to know why some people have more of a problem with those who expose what VPW did than they ever had with what VPW did in the first place.
So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things.
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johniam
quote:johniam, did you really mean to say that? PFAL did it? not God? or The Bible? but PFAL?
I've said this before. If VP, not the devil, did all that stuff, then, yes, PFAL made the difference. I concur that there are many possible man made organizations that could adequately accomodate someone's desire to have peace in their life and some knowledge of God, but PFAL was the one which accomodated ME. It wasn't just God or the bible, either; what about the people who blessed my life? They were involved too. There's people here who credit GSC for healing them. Same thing.
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johniam
quote: So what if he cynically interpreted the Bible for his own personal financial gain and cynically interpreted the Bible to prey on women who looked up to him? At least he's not like YOU people, talking about him doing those things.
It's one thing to list a man's sins; it's another to spit in God's face. That's where this always seems to lead. If VP did no good then nothing he said about God was any good. But if it WAS good, then it's spitting in God's face to say that it wasn't. I just see a lot of people here instead of running to serve, they're running to be conformed to this world.
God: why did you become so hostile toward my people?
believer: it's VP's fault; he had SEX in the motorcoach!
God: what does that have to do with me?
believer: uh..
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diazbro
It is mind blowing to me that people tolerate behavior in VPW that they wouldn't even begin to tolerate in themselves, a loved one, a friend , or a co-worker.
VPW could swill drambuie, aggressively pursue women, aggressively plagiarize, conceal and deceive people about his illness just to preserve the continuity of his "teachings" yet his supporters (and that is putting it kindly) don't care. But these same supporters would have 12 heart attacks if someone they knew behaved in this fashion ESPECIALLY if the person claimed to be a "teacher" or a "man of god". The better question to ask is why wouldn't someone be concerned about VPW's behavior especially since information about him was so lacking back in the day. For many it is only now that details relating to his behavior are emerging so why wouldn't it be reasonable to discuss it ?
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Raf
God: What have you done for me lately?
sycophantic wannabeliever: I defended the honor of VPW against the people who told the truth about the way he preyed on your people.
God: I'm sorry, maybe you didn't understand the question...
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justloafing
No John, I think you have it confused. It was the PEOPLE. It was and always will be average "joe" believer that made up twi. People with a pure heart. Not vp who's heart was seared and who was in it for himself. Yes he taught some truth and that to this day is true but some of what he taught as truth ruined people. He KNEW it was not the truth and ruined peoples lives with his spoken words just to live high on the hog and do whatever he wanted. The truth you found in pfal is good and can be found beyond the walls of twi but not to many people as vp were able to live the lies that he got away with and not end up in jail for a very long time(perhaps life).
GSC on the other hand has no boundries except to respect other people. There again it is the PEOPLE that make up GSC. Can you imagine what twi would have been like if people were able to think and live their lives ie.Treat people with the love of God, buy a house, a new car, not have to give everything that was plurality and so many other things. twi is a place where people leave a heck of a lot worse in body, soul and mind (some never to recover) in some cases.
John it had nothing to do about the integrity of God and his Word with vp, that is the point you don't get. It was all vp and what he could get for himself.
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