I have forgiven for more than you will ever know. And I know you weren't singling me out of course but since I'm part of the accused I've a right to respond.
While just being here a short time the persecution of VPW is high on this site
Rightly so.
The only thing I can say is "IF" VPW did this to any of you what makes you better to persecute him. Wouldn't it be better to be bigger than that and just forgive.
Sure -- forgiveness is great, and recommended, even. But so is acknowlegement of crimes commited.
I am not sure how hard it is to forgive but bible tells us to forgive.
Yes it does -- but it also says to confront the sinner.
So if I had to come on this site I would leave in one second if I was coming here for help.
What kind of help would you be looking for??
If you are looking for help on how to leave twi,
how to deal with the inconsistancies of twi,
how to deal with the micro-managing-second-by-second-of-your-daily-life-that-twi-does ---
You've come to the right place.
If you are looking for validation of docvic's *dogma*, you have *harmatia* (missed the mark).
The reason I am posting is the continued hostile, anger, and hate toward VPW and everyone who believes in it. Will the persecution continue I am not sure. We shall see.
CK
CK -- I've told ya this time and again -- this is NOT a docvic friendly site. And I have also told you that we (most all of us here) have met the guy, and are NOT blowing smoke, when personal experiences are recounted, for all the cyber-world to see.
You have never met him, yet you have heard his teachings from the tapes your parents (or whomever), have given you, and you are hanging onto what you have heard.
Cool -- Fine -- You do as you wish, but may I add one thing here??
Don't blow off the personal experiences that some of the folks here have had with that evil human being. He did a good job of quoting scripture (but then again -- so the devil did too), and he (docvic) conned a lot of young folks back before you were born.
We are they, and he is *Not the man he knew to be*, with good reason.
If this was just a slam VP place I'd not hang here. Even with the knowledge that he abused his sexual life and the damage it did to those receiving I still value things I learned that helped me be here today. You might consider the board is bigger than that. But as David said what did you expect? Still in all you are right on forgiveness and I will give it now knowing it will never be asked for. I do it for me, plain and simple. But you err in judging when you don't know the lives that have been helped because they read these pages. You err quite a bit and you pi$$ folks off in the process.
If you want warm and fuzzies to help you take your next step towards personal deliverance you won't find it here, this group for the larger part had some aspect of their lives messed over. But if you want truth that once accepted and moved on from will bring you inner warm fuzzies you've come to the right place.
While just being here a short time the persecution of VPW is high on this site. The only thing I can say is "IF" VPW did this to any of you what makes you better to persecute him. Wouldn't it be better to be bigger than that and just forgive. I am not sure how hard it is to forgive but bible tells us to forgive. So if I had to come on this site I would leave in one second if I was coming here for help. The reason I am posting is the continued hostile, anger, and hate toward VPW and everyone who believes in it. Will the persecution continue I am not sure. We shall see.
CK
ummm... I don't know ckmkeon.... your shallowness continues to amaze me...
Would you want it to be kept a secret "IF" he had sexually abused YOUR sister / mother / friend / wife???
Would you be so quick to forgive? ...if you were able to forgive would you be able to forget?
Things are posted about veepee, LCM, TWI, etc partially because there may be folks still out there living their lives in guilt because of the sexual and spiritual abuse heaped upon them by these men and their "ministry". Folks who find healing and hope when they find out that they are not alone. Folks who get angry when they find out what happened to them was not the exception but the norm.
Now... as to the second part of your post... people come here for different reasons... and those that come here for help (many, many different kinds of help) usually find it... sometimes they don't and they leave... but far more often than not they find it.
THE MESSAGE COMING THROUGH FROM YOUR POSTS IS THAT YOU HAVE NOT COME HERE FOR 'HELP'... OR HAVE YOU? (subconsciously) Even though you pretty much disagree with everything we say... even though you continue to close your eyes and ears to the cold hard facts... YOU STILL CONTINUE TO COME HERE...
Personally I think you just like to come around to poke and prod and throw stones... but that's JMO...
While just being here a short time the persecution of VPW is high on this site.
This is not "persecution."
"Persecution" would be vpw posting here, and us following him around
and harassing him on every post.
"Persecution" is kicking someone out of a program and off property,
and slandering them to make them an untouchable just because
you couldn't cheat on your spouse with them.
We're not doing that here.
If you want to see THAT one, you'd have to go back to hq,
when vpw was alive, and watch him do it.
(Which he did.)
The only thing I can say is "IF" VPW did this to any of you what makes you better to persecute him.
First of all, calling lots of people here liars (or INSINUATING it,
which is technically what the first half of the sentence does)
is NOT going to win anyone over.
We have some of the victims, some of the eyewitnesses,
and some of the people who figured it out.
Second, we're not "persecuting" him. He's not a poster here,
he's dead.
Third, none of us said we're "better" than him.
However, we are BEHAVING better- few, if any of us raped others,
drugged others, drugged and raped others, conned others,
lied in God's name, or appropriated large allocations of
"God's money" for our personal luxuries.
So, we are DOING better, and THAT is something that can be
attained and demonstrated.
Fourth, we're INFORMING. Many people have been quite thankful
at the view behind the curtain. If you DON'T want to look,
you don't have to come here. There's other places online
that still hide vpw's felonies and pretend he was a pious cleric.
Wouldn't it be better to be bigger than that and just forgive.
This isn't just about how he hurt individuals among us.
This is also informing others so that they can facilitate their own
healing, and see some of the truths so carefully hidden from them.
I am not sure how hard it is to forgive but bible tells us to forgive. So if I had to come on this site I would leave in one second if I was coming here for help.
That is one person.
MANY, MANY people come here for help and find this place QUITE
helpful just as it is. (Or "was" until you got here.)
The reason I am posting is the continued hostile, anger, and hate toward VPW and everyone who believes in it.
Most of us actually aren't "hostile" "angry" or "hating".
We've gone past that to a cold informing.
You're interpreting "reporting bad news" as "being angry."
Generally, I'm not angry at the man, even when discussing
the evil deeds he perpretrated in God's name.
But, I don't pretend he didn't do them, and make known
that the image he crafted was NOT a true representation.
Further, posters rarely "hate" each other.
They can disagree openly, sometimes even insult,
but that's still not "hate".
Will the persecution continue I am not sure. We shall see.
Will the whitewashing of vpw's intentional evil acts continue?
ck,as far as I can see....it is YOU who are doing the persecuting here on this sight.
It is YOU who are slandering by continuing to intimate that the people here whom have personal experience and first hand knowledge of vpw `s evil ..... *MAY* be liars.
Honestly, it suprises me when people are NOT deeply offended once beginning to discover the depths of evil practiced on our innocent bretheren by vpw personally....
It suprises me when people want to minimalise the enormity of the sin and betrayal practiced upon YOUR Christian brothers and sisters...
Really, I think your disgust should be reserved for the man/men who drugged raped and stole in God`s name....not those who were so visciously victimized and defamed.
You are talking here to the men and women who`s lives and reputations were ravaged and destroyed by this man..... Men and women mostly teenagers at the time even younger than yourself who simply were seeking with pure hearts to know and serve God ...... Let me tell you buddy...you simply arent GOING to find a lot of positives said about a man .....a ravening wolf who led so many of so many of us so far astray from the love of God :(
How about this....I will just forgive you for your demonstrated lack of compassion by insisting on singing the praises of this beast to those who`s lives that he personally ravaged.....and for refusing to understand the suffering endured directly at the hands of this criminal and his lackies?
CK, I'll give you credit.............You keep asking questions. One thing I think you really need to relize. This is a "Anti"twi website. Why is it Anti. Well I think if you could take any of what happened to people here you may start to see the light. This web site is to bring out what happened to people while in twi.
One thing I think you fail to see. These people here are your brothers and sisters in Christ. It was not vpw's idea to love his sisters and brothers in Christ but to abuse them as he saw fit for his own benifit, nothing more and nothing less.
This web site is for many types of people. So they can find out information, help them get out, heal from abuse and for fellowshiping with eachother. This site is not a "Pro"twi wesite.
VPW reaches from beyond the grave and persecutes more of God's elect than gather here to expose his evil ravenous ways. Sadly its through the very teachings that his disciples adhere to and hold closer than the very Words of Life they come from.
The standard has become, "tell me what you think of VPW and I will tell you where you will go spiritually", forget Jesus and he that died for you! Its all about VPW and if your spouse believes any of the lies on the net about our father in the Word, get rid of them they are spiritual filth!
You see its always the integrity of the Word at stake and that means you must protect VP's integrity above all! Pathetic as it is most of the die hard followers are unable to quote bible without quoting some great leader or another, so for their own conscience VPW has to remain the lamb, the innocent that just gave his all for us.
CK, despite the fact that I knew VPW and was quite fond of him, none of my pleasant experiences with him erase the wrong that he did to other people. Like the rest of us, he'll have some 'splainin' to do when he meets his maker.
It is possible that you can be thankful for whatever good you derived because of him and still open your eyes to the fact that not everything he did was good.
You can't persecute a dead man. That's just silly.
Mark, your picture is offensive. You could have made your point without it.
Well...Mark O, the picture is disturbing...shiver....but I think really makes a great point.
Wierwille himself certainly made a mockery of God, Jesus and scripture when utilizing all three to lure so many into misery and bondage ...
It requires a real artist to take the tools God no doubt intended as an aid to us in our spiritual journey ...and instead use them as cunning weapons to inflict so much pain and destruction :(
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
****************
I don't know about anyone on here, but I feel persecuted. <_<
How dare some kid come on here and berate, persecute and ridicule people who have had their lives ruined, destroyed and shattered by this pseudo religious group?? It would be one thing if he was open to discussions, learning about what people went through and actually research and re-evaluate what he was taught.
A closed mind is no better than the Dead Sea and it's a waste of breath and energy to even try to reason with him. I honestly tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and to give him a chance to actually see and acknowledge the truth about TWI and the teachings. I've given up on trying to help him.
I really don`t understand what you want from or expect from us ck..
This man raped my sisters, this man stole from my brothers, this man`s friends and hand picked leaders hurt my friends and their children deeply.....
Read this...try to let it sink in......
Lives were LOST families utterly and irrevocably DESTROYED... and YOU want to come in here waving your ignorant finger in our faces...acting like it is no big deal...wanting us to close our eyes and pretend that it never happened? Telling us that GOD has closed his eyes???? Like it was unimportant...that the devistation is some how acceptible???
Well...... It ain`t going to happen...what you ask is niether honorable or biblical....
I like you ck, I think that you believe that what you are doing is noble....I have been there...I respect your zeal....what I have no use for is your decision to remain true to a false standard and to try to hold others to a standard manufactured by a monster who stole from innocent trusting Christians.
Wierwille gave God and Christianity a huge black eye....his betrayal so outragious as to perminantly alienate many from the true God.
Oh, and as far as greasespot? If you don`t find healing here Buddy....it`s because YOU haven`t looked friend.
There is more Godly learning/healing/growth/joy to be found here in these forums than in the decade plus that I spent in twi.
All this joy and growth and nobody demanding money or raping my sisters....go figure
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ChattyKathy
CK,
I don't hate VP. Also I have received much deliverance since coming here. So?
CK
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satori001
Not persecuted.
Prosecuted.
Can't you tell the difference?
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ChattyKathy
CK,
I have forgiven for more than you will ever know. And I know you weren't singling me out of course but since I'm part of the accused I've a right to respond.
Kathy
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dmiller
Sure -- forgiveness is great, and recommended, even. But so is acknowlegement of crimes commited.
Yes it does -- but it also says to confront the sinner.What kind of help would you be looking for??
If you are looking for help on how to leave twi,
how to deal with the inconsistancies of twi,
how to deal with the micro-managing-second-by-second-of-your-daily-life-that-twi-does ---
You've come to the right place.
If you are looking for validation of docvic's *dogma*, you have *harmatia* (missed the mark).
CK -- I've told ya this time and again -- this is NOT a docvic friendly site. And I have also told you that we (most all of us here) have met the guy, and are NOT blowing smoke, when personal experiences are recounted, for all the cyber-world to see.
You have never met him, yet you have heard his teachings from the tapes your parents (or whomever), have given you, and you are hanging onto what you have heard.
Cool -- Fine -- You do as you wish, but may I add one thing here??
Don't blow off the personal experiences that some of the folks here have had with that evil human being. He did a good job of quoting scripture (but then again -- so the devil did too), and he (docvic) conned a lot of young folks back before you were born.
We are they, and he is *Not the man he knew to be*, with good reason.
Please take that into consideration -----
Your zeal is admirable, but misguided.
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SafariVista
My brief encounter w/ VP was nothing compared to some ladies... I was only yelled at in public for not accepting his request to sit next to me...
It seems that there was a side to this great MOG, which most people did not see.
If everything gives off something... what was he really giving off?
Lives are at stake here~ It is important…
(I do feel bad for his children though) :(
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ChattyKathy
CK,
If this was just a slam VP place I'd not hang here. Even with the knowledge that he abused his sexual life and the damage it did to those receiving I still value things I learned that helped me be here today. You might consider the board is bigger than that. But as David said what did you expect? Still in all you are right on forgiveness and I will give it now knowing it will never be asked for. I do it for me, plain and simple. But you err in judging when you don't know the lives that have been helped because they read these pages. You err quite a bit and you pi$$ folks off in the process.
If you want warm and fuzzies to help you take your next step towards personal deliverance you won't find it here, this group for the larger part had some aspect of their lives messed over. But if you want truth that once accepted and moved on from will bring you inner warm fuzzies you've come to the right place.
Kathy
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dmiller
Safari -- you can sit next to me ANEETIME!!!
(would do an old soul good, to have a young lady like you, nearby. ;)
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Tom Strange
ummm... I don't know ckmkeon.... your shallowness continues to amaze me...
Would you want it to be kept a secret "IF" he had sexually abused YOUR sister / mother / friend / wife???
Would you be so quick to forgive? ...if you were able to forgive would you be able to forget?
Things are posted about veepee, LCM, TWI, etc partially because there may be folks still out there living their lives in guilt because of the sexual and spiritual abuse heaped upon them by these men and their "ministry". Folks who find healing and hope when they find out that they are not alone. Folks who get angry when they find out what happened to them was not the exception but the norm.
Now... as to the second part of your post... people come here for different reasons... and those that come here for help (many, many different kinds of help) usually find it... sometimes they don't and they leave... but far more often than not they find it.
THE MESSAGE COMING THROUGH FROM YOUR POSTS IS THAT YOU HAVE NOT COME HERE FOR 'HELP'... OR HAVE YOU? (subconsciously) Even though you pretty much disagree with everything we say... even though you continue to close your eyes and ears to the cold hard facts... YOU STILL CONTINUE TO COME HERE...
Personally I think you just like to come around to poke and prod and throw stones... but that's JMO...
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GarthP2000
The terrorists that plowed into the World Trade Center had zeal too, thus showing that zeal by itself isn't automatically 'admirable'.
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SafariVista
(((((((((((((dMiller)))))))))))))
Gee wiz, thanks~
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topoftheworld
I only have one thought.
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WordWolf
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Oakspear
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excathedra
wow safari please tell what happened !!!!
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rascal
ck,as far as I can see....it is YOU who are doing the persecuting here on this sight.
It is YOU who are slandering by continuing to intimate that the people here whom have personal experience and first hand knowledge of vpw `s evil ..... *MAY* be liars.
Honestly, it suprises me when people are NOT deeply offended once beginning to discover the depths of evil practiced on our innocent bretheren by vpw personally....
It suprises me when people want to minimalise the enormity of the sin and betrayal practiced upon YOUR Christian brothers and sisters...
Really, I think your disgust should be reserved for the man/men who drugged raped and stole in God`s name....not those who were so visciously victimized and defamed.
You are talking here to the men and women who`s lives and reputations were ravaged and destroyed by this man..... Men and women mostly teenagers at the time even younger than yourself who simply were seeking with pure hearts to know and serve God ...... Let me tell you buddy...you simply arent GOING to find a lot of positives said about a man .....a ravening wolf who led so many of so many of us so far astray from the love of God :(
How about this....I will just forgive you for your demonstrated lack of compassion by insisting on singing the praises of this beast to those who`s lives that he personally ravaged.....and for refusing to understand the suffering endured directly at the hands of this criminal and his lackies?
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justloafing
Here you go exie
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.ph...ndpost&p=227238
CK, I'll give you credit.............You keep asking questions. One thing I think you really need to relize. This is a "Anti"twi website. Why is it Anti. Well I think if you could take any of what happened to people here you may start to see the light. This web site is to bring out what happened to people while in twi.
One thing I think you fail to see. These people here are your brothers and sisters in Christ. It was not vpw's idea to love his sisters and brothers in Christ but to abuse them as he saw fit for his own benifit, nothing more and nothing less.
This web site is for many types of people. So they can find out information, help them get out, heal from abuse and for fellowshiping with eachother. This site is not a "Pro"twi wesite.
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markomalley
CK,
I totally sympathize with you, man...
It's terrible what he had to go through for us people and then we mock him...
We should appreciate him more...
(Oh, btw, yes I can do better, Garth, but was in a hurry)
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wingnut
VPW reaches from beyond the grave and persecutes more of God's elect than gather here to expose his evil ravenous ways. Sadly its through the very teachings that his disciples adhere to and hold closer than the very Words of Life they come from.
The standard has become, "tell me what you think of VPW and I will tell you where you will go spiritually", forget Jesus and he that died for you! Its all about VPW and if your spouse believes any of the lies on the net about our father in the Word, get rid of them they are spiritual filth!
You see its always the integrity of the Word at stake and that means you must protect VP's integrity above all! Pathetic as it is most of the die hard followers are unable to quote bible without quoting some great leader or another, so for their own conscience VPW has to remain the lamb, the innocent that just gave his all for us.
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Linda Z
CK, despite the fact that I knew VPW and was quite fond of him, none of my pleasant experiences with him erase the wrong that he did to other people. Like the rest of us, he'll have some 'splainin' to do when he meets his maker.
It is possible that you can be thankful for whatever good you derived because of him and still open your eyes to the fact that not everything he did was good.
You can't persecute a dead man. That's just silly.
Mark, your picture is offensive. You could have made your point without it.
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rascal
Well...Mark O, the picture is disturbing...shiver....but I think really makes a great point.
Wierwille himself certainly made a mockery of God, Jesus and scripture when utilizing all three to lure so many into misery and bondage ...
It requires a real artist to take the tools God no doubt intended as an aid to us in our spiritual journey ...and instead use them as cunning weapons to inflict so much pain and destruction :(
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markomalley
Well, I'm offended, so I guess the picture is appropriate. But, what, specifically, about the picture offends you?
Thanks. I hope that folks can get beyond the disturbing folks to get to the message.
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Belle
Persecute:
1. To oppress or harass with ill-treatment, especially because of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation, or beliefs.
2. To annoy persistently; bother.
****************
I don't know about anyone on here, but I feel persecuted. <_<
How dare some kid come on here and berate, persecute and ridicule people who have had their lives ruined, destroyed and shattered by this pseudo religious group?? It would be one thing if he was open to discussions, learning about what people went through and actually research and re-evaluate what he was taught.
A closed mind is no better than the Dead Sea and it's a waste of breath and energy to even try to reason with him. I honestly tried to give him the benefit of the doubt and to give him a chance to actually see and acknowledge the truth about TWI and the teachings. I've given up on trying to help him.
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rascal
Me too Belle...
I really don`t understand what you want from or expect from us ck..
This man raped my sisters, this man stole from my brothers, this man`s friends and hand picked leaders hurt my friends and their children deeply.....
Read this...try to let it sink in......
Lives were LOST families utterly and irrevocably DESTROYED... and YOU want to come in here waving your ignorant finger in our faces...acting like it is no big deal...wanting us to close our eyes and pretend that it never happened? Telling us that GOD has closed his eyes???? Like it was unimportant...that the devistation is some how acceptible???
Well...... It ain`t going to happen...what you ask is niether honorable or biblical....
I like you ck, I think that you believe that what you are doing is noble....I have been there...I respect your zeal....what I have no use for is your decision to remain true to a false standard and to try to hold others to a standard manufactured by a monster who stole from innocent trusting Christians.
Wierwille gave God and Christianity a huge black eye....his betrayal so outragious as to perminantly alienate many from the true God.
Oh, and as far as greasespot? If you don`t find healing here Buddy....it`s because YOU haven`t looked friend.
There is more Godly learning/healing/growth/joy to be found here in these forums than in the decade plus that I spent in twi.
All this joy and growth and nobody demanding money or raping my sisters....go figure
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Linda Z
What offends me? Making the crucifixion of Jesus into a cartoon to make your point. You're quite articluate, so I know you could do it with words.
Maybe ck needs to have your point driven home with a sledgehammer, but the majority of the people viewing these forums don't.
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