When I said "Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them" that was a cue to ask me for the scriptures.
Surely thou jest
in Mikese
ask me for the scriptures = I will give you my interpretation of PFAL, change the subject, obscure the subject, give you scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic at hand
Bagpipes, thanks for the references on emotions - I'm going to have to check out that book Molecules of Emotion - looked at some info on it at Barnes and Nobles' website. That's ANOTHER thing to think about on this topic. I think I did a great job of suppressing emotions when I was in TWI [courtesy of the prevailing attitude of TWI on feelings]...Speaking of emotions I came across something interesting in a book The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness by Antonio Damasio [a professor and head of the Dept. of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine]: He found in a study with some of his patients that when people had neurological damage in specific sites of their brains, they lost a certain class of emotions and in a parallel development , lost the ability to make rational decisions. He concludes that reason doesn't improve by operating without the leverage of emotion, but that emotion probably assists reasoning[page 41].
A small world it is! Antonio Domasio has written several fascinating books, one of which I have. I briefly talked with both him and his wife when they were guest lecturers at the group I attended. He's a brain science superstar.
I had written (and you later bold fonted) : “Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.”
You wrote (I assume referring to the bold fonts):
“That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.”
I object to your cavalier handling of my post here.
First of all you should include the qualifiers. The sub-sentence you highlighted should read “MOST human consciousness is actually an illusion.” Second, I was referring to Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s total embrace of that idea and my only partial embrace without supplying any detail as to what parts. Third, you have no idea what scriptures I saw that relate to it.
Then there’s the fourth objection.
Look at the timestamps.
Your reading of my post, AND pondering of it, AND writing what you did took a grand total of FORTY MINUTES!
I had pondered that idea for 35 years, the people I had first read of it from, along with their hundreds of students, had devoted their entire lives to it all through the first half of the 20th Century, and now hundreds of PhD hard core brain scientists have been working it for decades. The co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Prizewinner Francis Crick, in his very last book (like dying last words) and title thereof describes this same idea similar to that sentence I had written as “The Astonishing Hypothesis!”
But you, templelady, saw through this exceedingly complex and challenging idea in less than FORTY MINUTES! And I'd bet it was actually a lot less, more like immediate?
I can only say, mimicking you, that one sentence you posted mocking me explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.
Anther book, Change Your Brain Change Your Life by Daniel Amen, hits upon brain damaged areas, behaviour, thinking patterns, etc. In the book Amen has photos using SPECT scans, different from PET scans. It's worth looking at while perusing the bookstore. Amen divides the brain into six sections. He explains symptomatic problems associated with those sections, and then offers practical "prescriptions" to help alter patterns. Of course he includes case studies and his own personal experiences.
The research by Heartmath takes this subject to an even deeper level. Heartmath goes beyond lignan/receptor interaction and into research regarding vibrational communication between cells......talk about resonance. If I recollect properly (my book is on loan and I'm too lazy currently to go to the website), the heart registers emotional impact before the brain, THEN the brain is brought into the equation. One of Heartmath's current ongoing studies is learning physiologically/vibrationally how intuition works. (I guess that's been ongoing for 1000's of years..huh?)
The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall, is about cellular memory and includes case studies/interviews with transplant patients and/or their families. I was led to this book after studying some Heartmath stuff. It too looks at energy fields and vibrational components, how we affect each other nonverbally. It ain't just metaphysics...it's real hard science stuff. And I think Carolyn Myss is accurate in stating that science of the future will recognize that man has more than 5 senses.
If you are so led to look into any of those books, I'd love to hear your thoughts. And if not, that's great too!!
At some point I'll check out The Feeling of What Happens. Currently I'm reading a book on emotions that Ex10 recommended, The Cry of the Soul: How Our Emotions Reveal our Deepest Questions About God. I ain't no expert from the science field, but I do have credentials in my personal life story. I've read/studied other books as well along this subject.
All this stuff is relevant on "What does it take to change your mind?'
Yes TWI doctrines, or any legalistic promotions, have deeply affected me too. Soul suicide/murder is a good description. (IMO)
Fun thread...at least for the emotionally intense like me.
I had written (and you later bold fonted) : “Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.”
You wrote (I assume referring to the bold fonts):
“That one sentence explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.”
I object to your cavalier handling of my post here.
It's not caviler at all, Believing that ,
1) most human consciousness is illusion and
2) the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture
explains to me a great deal about what you post re PFAL and why you post it. Object all you want, but you are the one who made the initial post. and clearly believe at least part of it
First of all you should include the qualifiers. The sub-sentence you highlighted should read “MOST human consciousness is actually an illusion.” Second, I was referring to Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s total embrace of that idea and my only partial embrace without supplying any detail as to what parts.
I am only going to respond to what you post. If you want me to analyse more that that you are out of luck. The more you post the more I have to analyse, if you leave things out then, it isn't my job to figure out what you omitted
Third, you have no idea what scriptures I saw that relate to it.
See above, you want me to consider those scriptures you are referring to, post them otherwise I'm not going to worry about would be, could be, might be, should be.
Then there’s the fourth objection.
Look at the timestamps.
Your reading of my post, AND pondering of it, AND writing what you did took a grand total of FORTY MINUTES!
I had pondered that idea for 35 years, the people I had first read of it from, along with their hundreds of students, had devoted their entire lives to it all through the first half of the 20th Century, and now hundreds of PhD hard core brain scientists have been working it for decades. The co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Prizewinner Francis Crick, in his very last book (like dying last words) and title thereof describes this same idea similar to that sentence I had written as “The Astonishing Hypothesis!”
But you, templelady, saw through this exceedingly complex and challenging idea in less than FORTY MINUTES! And I'd bet it was actually a lot less, more like immediate?
I can only say, mimicking you, that one sentence you posted mocking me explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.
What you posted required only about ten minutes of contemplation, I contemplated what you posted. If you wanted me to contemplate more you should have posted more.
Think of it as a a television court show
Judge Judy:
Based on your testimony Mike, I would have to say that this explains a great deal of your thought processes to me
Mike: but you didn't consider my thirtyfive years of study, you didn"t ask what scriptures I was referring to
Judge Judy: Did you bring that documentation to court, do you have anything furthur to submit that would explain you positions?
Mike: no
Judge Judy: well I can't consider it then, you knew you were coming to court today you should have been prepared.
There is no mocking involved MIKE, I got a much clearer picture of how you think from what you posted. and your subsequent posts including the one I am quoting. If you failed to present, all your evidence or present it accurately--That's on you
Yes, I have that book by Daniel Amen, and it's very eye opening. He's a great speaker, a very down to earth scientist, and yet still a believer in God.
He had a Saturday morning radio call-in talk show here in San Diego that I used to listen to, and he may resume it when he's off his current book tour.
He has several books out and Barnes and Noble carries them. His website may offer streaming audio still.
He seems to be breaking new ground in Psychiatry, being the first (and still only?) M.D. in that field that actually looks at the organ he treats. Up until now Psychiatrists had no way to look at the brain so they only look at words and body language. Daniel Amen strikes me as a pioneer.
But I must confess, I have to do some reading before I can intelligently post.
D. Amen's books were referred to me a long time ago, but I had so much going on back then, I never read any.
I attended a few seminars on brain development in abused and neglected children... in the hopes of gaining insight on how the brain forms in these kinds of children and to recognize their difference in the "reasoning" process.
I'm currently reading "The Emotional Brain" by Joseph LeDoux. Not sure if I'll get any insight as to the topic of this thread, but I've sure picked up a variety of very interesting reads from the thread for the future.
I've got a LOT of reading to catch up on – Bagpipes, your Change Your Brain Change Your Life and The Cry of the Souland AmazinGrace, your book The Emotional Brain all sound interesting…And feel free to contribute any stuff you've gleaned so far from anything you've read. I think the emotional aspect is VERY IMPORTANT in this topic as well as having a personal interest in it…
Don't know if this is an accurate observation on my part but I compare the difference between how my wife [Tonto] and I deal with the mental baggage of TWI involvement. I tend to get very technical and analytical – and I guess aloof [don't know if that's the right word] like a cold clinical objective approach [maybe it's a guy thing – or my personality] – whereas Tonto has a much more personal approach – how it touches her life [like Coolwater'spicture of being inside the maelstrom dealing directly with each issue]…I think for resolution both ways are necessary. I think my wife is light years ahead of me in dealing with the emotional stuff – probably due to my attitude towards feelings [which as I mentioned earlier was to ignore them]. That's probably why it took awhile for some of the weird sexual crap of TWI to hit me [like I talked about in the threads: Why You Can't Sweep It Under the Carpet andChunks of TWI Emotional Intrusion].
Perhaps the way I learn is to back up and review, review, review, like how I read books. Maybe some think I'm trying to impress people by mentioning all the books I read. I'm not an intellectual giant, have no degree, twice a college drop-out [and that's if you count the Rome City unaccredited thing as one]. But I LOVE to read! The more complicated the book is [likeGardner's stuff], the more I have to re-read and break out the dictionary…Maybe I need to do that with my feelings. I'd appreciate any ideas along those lines. It's funny – before I started this thread I kept going back and forth on where to post it. Should it go in By the Way or Doctrinal? Shows you how I think – Doctrinal is for technical stuff.
Mike, a psychologist friend of mine also thinks very highly of Amen, stating that Amen is on the cutting edge especially regarding ADD and learning challenges. (BTW, IMO ADD is greatly over diagnosed....kids are not designed to sit still. Yet I also understand that it is a very real challenge. But perhaps the challenge is not the individual, but our culture's expectations.)
AG, I'll have to put The Emotional Brain on my list too. Like t-bone, I just read alot. I have no college degree. But I have worked HARD in the field of emotional management...for my own health and sanity. (Quite literally in fact.)
T-bone part of your analytical approach I'm sure is just part of who you are. Male or female? I've heard/read like everyone else that men are more analytical, but then some men are very much in touch with their emotional side. (And the men I know like this are a far cry from homosexuality.) Funny, I was wondering why this thread was in doctrinal...now I understand! :) I have totally stayed away from doctinal; just not into it at this point in my life.
TWI and that soul suicide/murder stuff I mentioned? Part of the reason I buried some of my femininity/sensuality is because of TWI conditioning. The sad part is that I am a woman!! That is soul suicide, huh? A woman tuning out her femininity. Of course it wasn't JUST TWI conditioning. Most behaviours/responses result from multifaceted reasons.
Thanks for this thread!!
Since I have no college degree the initials after my name (instead of phd) are kgbe = knowledge gained by experience. Does that count for something?
Interesting in all this discussion about "changing your mind" no one (so far as far as I can tell) has returned to the scriptures on this topic. Maybe it's because to truly change your mind one first has to repent, and repentance is not something indicitive of the mindset of so many people today.
Take a look at Matt. 4:17. "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." This was not a new message that Jesus was preaching. LONG before Jesus began to preach this message John the Baptist had preached the same thing years before, as some scholars report. It says in Matt 3:1,2: "In those days (this was years before Matt 4:17) came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea." "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".
The word "repent" in both these verses, Matt 3:2 and 4:17 is the word, "metanoeo", which literally means: to have another mind, or a change of mind. Metanoeo is made up of two root words - meta refering here to "change", noia meaning "mind".
The reason I believe there is a lot of resistance in regard to one repenting is because of the negative connotations preachers tend to impose on it - i.e. specifically that one must first recognize all their faults and their shortcomings. Truthfully speaking, no one wants to readily admit that they "messed up". That's the last thing on the Christians mind, especially when they are being taught (often times simultaneously) that they are/have been made righteous in Christ Jesus. Yet repentance is not only how one begins the Christian life, it is also how one continues to serve as a Christian. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand - it is near." If you were to quit breathing this very second you would be immediately confronted with "the kingdom of heaven" and if you were in it or not. The Kingdom is at hand, meaning it is near.
Not many people realize repentance, or literally, "changing one's mind" is a matter of life and death. There are people who hold onto offenses for years - decades even, for something that happened to them more than 20 years ago as if it had happened yesterday afternoon. Why is it when we talk about changing our minds, repentance and forgiveness are usually the last things we tend to think about, let alone do?" Just some food for thought here.
Interesting in all this discussion about "changing your mind" no one (so far as far as I can tell) has returned to the scriptures on this topic. Maybe it's because to truly change your mind one first has to repent, and repentance is not something indicitive of the mindset of so many people today.
I think our discussion has been more of the "mechanics" of changing your mind and decision-making. Gardner's analysis of the repentance of Paul noted in my initial post got into what factors Gardner thought motivated Paul to change his mind after the resurrected Jesus appeared to him...I think it's extremely valuable to learn how our minds work - even as a Christian trying to follow Scriptures like Psalm 4: 4 "...when you are on your beds, search your hearts..." and II Cor. 13: 5 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves..."
It's my belief that a lot of situations in life demand just good old fashion common sense or call it clear thinking or critical thinking - [not involving a moral dilemma] - such as where to work, if I should buy a house, who to marry...Speaking of decision-making, there's an interesting book I read right after I left TWI: Decision Making & the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional Viewby Garry Friesenwith Robin Maxson.
"But I LOVE to read! The more complicated the book is [like Gardner's stuff], the more I have to re-read and break out the dictionary…Maybe I need to do that with my feelings. I'd appreciate any ideas along those lines."
Idea along these lines: Have you tried journaling? Like I said it changed my life on all levels...and still continues to do so. Website: mindbodymedicine.com might have some starters. I was already journaling when I found it. Through the program offered from this sight I was able to totally rid the pain of a herniated disc (confirmed with an MRI). YES!! Long story..but short is a 30-day specific journaling program. It ain't easy...but it asks pointed questions. One of the goals of the journal is to learn to stop expressing emotions as physical symptoms. BUT it would be a good exercise for ANYONE to do (imo). Anyway, that is one suggestion. (And I have other journal stuff if interested.)
The repent stuff....I do not enjoy doctrinal debates and so will not get into one. However I thought some about the repent factor. (And I've thought of it much since leaving TWI in October.) And Sirguess I too thought of nakedness...naked and total surrender. As I stand naked (no cover) before my God and allow surrender, He can change my heart. That scares the biggebees out of TWI mindset because so much is based on CONTROL.
And I thought about "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he" and "out of the heart come the issues of life."
It doesn't say brain or mind or soul...it says heart. After studying Heartmath stuff, I do not believe that the references in the Bible (and other languages) to the heart are just a figure of speech. Actual "thinking" takes place within our physiological hearts. "Did not our heart burn within us?" We have all experienced it. It is powerful and life changing, but it is not linear. YOU GOT TO LOOK AT THE heartmath.org STUFF. See if it turns you on like it has turned me on. I just rarely have anyone to really discuss it with. :) ( Well, you don't HAVE to look at it...but if you do you might like it. )
Idea along these lines: Have you tried journaling? Like I said it changed my life on all levels...and still continues to do so. Website: mindbodymedicine.com might have some starters. I was already journaling when I found it.
Bagpipes, I think you're onto something there! Holy Cow!!! I feel like one those people - we've all seen them - after EVERY twig, EVERY teaching, EVERY meeting they'd say something like "God - I got so delivered by that teaching." And you can't help but think - "wow they must REALLY be screwed up!" ... I have read so many books and studied so many topics in the Bible but never had much social exchange with anybody after I left TWI. And I don't think a lot of things really came together for me. Until I came to Grease Spot. I read some, reply some - there's something happening. I'm processing stuff!
Seriously - the journaling ideasounds like a cool way to process stuff!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!!!!
I am not thinking, "wow, he must really be screwed up." I usually have that thought concerning moi. :blink:
Posting on GSC is like journaling in a way....except most folks will sensor. (And we all hope we will. ) When you personally journal there is NO sensorship. And if a person keeps at it, the beautiful and the "ugly" will manifest.
Another thing journaling has done for me is to help me embrace goals. I used to hate the word "goals" because it was another darned standard that I would fail at. And still I prefer the word "dreams." After about 4 years of journaling I realized I had dreams/goals that were coming to pass. I began to notice that these goals/dreams were some of the thoughts I had been writing for years. It is a nice side benefit. Yet at the same time I realize that not all my dreams will come true (like growing gills and being able to stay under the ocean water for as long as I want..hee)....but there is always room to hope. Hope. Hope. Hope. One can't go wrong with hope. Even if I die, and I die hoping...it makes the process gentler.
I found Dare to Win by the Chicken Soup guys to be a simple book on goals and a life mission statement.
Have you checked out heartmath.org yet? (I just won't let that die will I? :) )
Don't know if this is an accurate observation on my part but I compare the difference between how my wife [Tonto]and I deal with the mental baggage of TWI involvement. I tend to get very technical and analytical – and I guess aloof [don't know if that's the right word] like a cold clinical objective approach [maybe it's a guy thing – or my personality] – whereas Tonto has a much more personal approach – how it touches her life [like Coolwater's picture of being inside the maelstrom dealing directly with each issue]…I think for resolution both ways are necessary. I think my wife is light years ahead of me in dealing with the emotional stuff – probably due to my attitude towards feelings [which as I mentioned earlier was to ignore them].
though i could probably write for years on this one...
...a few thoughts...if i may
the best thing an intellectual can do is find a practice that helps you become more mindful of simple bodily feelings and sensations
and believe me...this is a deep deep subject..not shallow or unintelligent at all
and such things are founded on the simple sensation of breathing
and ways of practicing being mindful of the mechanics and sensations of your basic human breath
and believe me, there are a gazillion ways to practice this...which is good news, imo
my personal practice is a synthesis of more than a few
depending on what i am doing (eating, working, sex, exercise, sleeping, dreaming, suffering, etc...)
to the point where i am becoming more mindful of my breath pretty much throughout the day
and its amazing how it doesnt take very long before one becomes unconsciously competent in this sort of thing
and what these kinds of things do
is bring the gravity of one's awareness from mere brain to the entire body/mind
and more or less helps free us from the gift/schism of western duality
and escape our identification with the thinker
again...probably dont approach this sort of thing unless you are ready for some potent interior transformation
and...like Gardner...changing our mind can have a lot to do with changing our perception of the nature of the mind itself...and our relationship with it
and...kinda like what was written about the return of The Kid...how "heez gonna meet you in the air"
man o man...all sort of stuff on this one
heck...if you integrate it with the shadow journaling in my previous post...
I've practiced writing in different persons a couple times. It helped me mainly with perspective, which results (even if slightly) in transformation.
Also (this may sound strange) I've journaled writing in a circle and waves around the page or mind mapping (the bubble or line thing) and i've journaled with the opposite hand (hee). The hand thing really got me thinking and writing about how much our hands know. It was quite revealing...the differences between my left and right...maybe I'll post that sometime.
Then I went thru a phase where I started indexing my journals, but I got tired of that. I do put notes at the top of a page to help me find an entry now. (It's hard though to remember which journal it is in.)
I sort of cheat with journaling because I know shorthand, so I can pen pretty quickly.
One thing so fun/deep about journaling (for me) is that ANYTHING goes. This took awhile for me to develop...to not be afraid. I'm sure some of that fear was because of my TWI mindset.
Did you read about Freezeframing and Cut Through on the heartmath site Sir? These are just two of the "mindfulness" exercises heartmath has developed. . one of the "gazillion ways" you mentioned, but with a twist. I was into meditation for a few years before TWI and heartmath does take mindfulness a level deeper(imo)...and heartmath may be more attractive to the Western mindset. I still speak in tongues regularly (duck :) )...it is an intimate part of my life. After practicing some of the heartmath stuff (just a little...simple awareness goes a long way), my prayers no longer come from my head...they REALLY come from the area around my heart. (I'm not exalting me...but that's just what happened.)
I first heard of heartmath in two totally unrelated articles. Each intrigued me and "heartmath" stuck in my head. A few months later I needed a new book to read...but wasn't sure what. So I perused the book store shelves and saw a book, The Heartmath Solution. And thus...I've been a heartmath fan ever since.
Okay...I'll shut up now about the heartmath stuff. Don't mean to bore you.
Funny thing...when I was little I always thought/felt I dreamt (sleep dreaming) in my abdomen. I thought that until in my teens at which time I was taught that I dreamt in my brain. It sounded so cold, but I thought, "Well, I guess THEY are right." After discovering that the mind is in the whole body...and a hosts of it acutally is in my abdomen...I've decided I was right as a kid!!!
Tbone,
I visited heartmath.org this morning and didn't have any trouble getting in. Maybe you went to heartmath.com which is the business aspect of heartmath.
Another note...all this stuff....I am (obviously) no "expert." Shoot the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know. AND I have deeply considered this stuff about the heart from a biblical perspective...and still do. Still chewing on and endeavoring to understand it. I guess that is a lifelong process. Maybe another post.
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templelady
Surely thou jest
in Mikese
ask me for the scriptures = I will give you my interpretation of PFAL, change the subject, obscure the subject, give you scriptures that have nothing to do with the topic at hand
I have learned my lesson
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T-Bone
Bagpipes, thanks for the references on emotions - I'm going to have to check out that book Molecules of Emotion - looked at some info on it at Barnes and Nobles' website. That's ANOTHER thing to think about on this topic. I think I did a great job of suppressing emotions when I was in TWI [courtesy of the prevailing attitude of TWI on feelings]...Speaking of emotions I came across something interesting in a book The Feeling of What Happens: Body and Emotion in the Making of Consciousness by Antonio Damasio [a professor and head of the Dept. of Neurology at the University of Iowa College of Medicine]: He found in a study with some of his patients that when people had neurological damage in specific sites of their brains, they lost a certain class of emotions and in a parallel development , lost the ability to make rational decisions. He concludes that reason doesn't improve by operating without the leverage of emotion, but that emotion probably assists reasoning [page 41].
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Mike
A small world it is! Antonio Domasio has written several fascinating books, one of which I have. I briefly talked with both him and his wife when they were guest lecturers at the group I attended. He's a brain science superstar.
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Mike
templelady,
I had written (and you later bold fonted) : “Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.”
You wrote (I assume referring to the bold fonts):
“That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.”
I object to your cavalier handling of my post here.
First of all you should include the qualifiers. The sub-sentence you highlighted should read “MOST human consciousness is actually an illusion.” Second, I was referring to Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s total embrace of that idea and my only partial embrace without supplying any detail as to what parts. Third, you have no idea what scriptures I saw that relate to it.
Then there’s the fourth objection.
Look at the timestamps.
Your reading of my post, AND pondering of it, AND writing what you did took a grand total of FORTY MINUTES!
I had pondered that idea for 35 years, the people I had first read of it from, along with their hundreds of students, had devoted their entire lives to it all through the first half of the 20th Century, and now hundreds of PhD hard core brain scientists have been working it for decades. The co-discoverer of DNA, Nobel Prizewinner Francis Crick, in his very last book (like dying last words) and title thereof describes this same idea similar to that sentence I had written as “The Astonishing Hypothesis!”
But you, templelady, saw through this exceedingly complex and challenging idea in less than FORTY MINUTES! And I'd bet it was actually a lot less, more like immediate?
I can only say, mimicking you, that one sentence you posted mocking me explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.
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I Love Bagpipes
Tbone...
Anther book, Change Your Brain Change Your Life by Daniel Amen, hits upon brain damaged areas, behaviour, thinking patterns, etc. In the book Amen has photos using SPECT scans, different from PET scans. It's worth looking at while perusing the bookstore. Amen divides the brain into six sections. He explains symptomatic problems associated with those sections, and then offers practical "prescriptions" to help alter patterns. Of course he includes case studies and his own personal experiences.
The research by Heartmath takes this subject to an even deeper level. Heartmath goes beyond lignan/receptor interaction and into research regarding vibrational communication between cells......talk about resonance. If I recollect properly (my book is on loan and I'm too lazy currently to go to the website), the heart registers emotional impact before the brain, THEN the brain is brought into the equation. One of Heartmath's current ongoing studies is learning physiologically/vibrationally how intuition works. (I guess that's been ongoing for 1000's of years..huh?)
The Heart's Code by Paul Pearsall, is about cellular memory and includes case studies/interviews with transplant patients and/or their families. I was led to this book after studying some Heartmath stuff. It too looks at energy fields and vibrational components, how we affect each other nonverbally. It ain't just metaphysics...it's real hard science stuff. And I think Carolyn Myss is accurate in stating that science of the future will recognize that man has more than 5 senses.
If you are so led to look into any of those books, I'd love to hear your thoughts. And if not, that's great too!!
At some point I'll check out The Feeling of What Happens. Currently I'm reading a book on emotions that Ex10 recommended, The Cry of the Soul: How Our Emotions Reveal our Deepest Questions About God. I ain't no expert from the science field, but I do have credentials in my personal life story. I've read/studied other books as well along this subject.
All this stuff is relevant on "What does it take to change your mind?'
Yes TWI doctrines, or any legalistic promotions, have deeply affected me too. Soul suicide/murder is a good description. (IMO)
Fun thread...at least for the emotionally intense like me.
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dmiller
Emotional -- and IN TENTS!!
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templelady
It's not caviler at all, Believing that ,
1) most human consciousness is illusion and
2) the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture
explains to me a great deal about what you post re PFAL and why you post it. Object all you want, but you are the one who made the initial post. and clearly believe at least part of it
I am only going to respond to what you post. If you want me to analyse more that that you are out of luck. The more you post the more I have to analyse, if you leave things out then, it isn't my job to figure out what you omittedSee above, you want me to consider those scriptures you are referring to, post them otherwise I'm not going to worry about would be, could be, might be, should be.
What you posted required only about ten minutes of contemplation, I contemplated what you posted. If you wanted me to contemplate more you should have posted more.
Think of it as a a television court show
Judge Judy:
Based on your testimony Mike, I would have to say that this explains a great deal of your thought processes to me
Mike: but you didn't consider my thirtyfive years of study, you didn"t ask what scriptures I was referring to
Judge Judy: Did you bring that documentation to court, do you have anything furthur to submit that would explain you positions?
Mike: no
Judge Judy: well I can't consider it then, you knew you were coming to court today you should have been prepared.
There is no mocking involved MIKE, I got a much clearer picture of how you think from what you posted. and your subsequent posts including the one I am quoting. If you failed to present, all your evidence or present it accurately--That's on you
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dmiller
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I Love Bagpipes
dmiller...
I confess...Yes, I have been emotional in tents.
Hee
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Mike
Bagpipes,
Yes, I have that book by Daniel Amen, and it's very eye opening. He's a great speaker, a very down to earth scientist, and yet still a believer in God.
He had a Saturday morning radio call-in talk show here in San Diego that I used to listen to, and he may resume it when he's off his current book tour.
He has several books out and Barnes and Noble carries them. His website may offer streaming audio still.
He seems to be breaking new ground in Psychiatry, being the first (and still only?) M.D. in that field that actually looks at the organ he treats. Up until now Psychiatrists had no way to look at the brain so they only look at words and body language. Daniel Amen strikes me as a pioneer.
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Amazingrace
T-Bone,
Awesome topic. :)
But I must confess, I have to do some reading before I can intelligently post.
D. Amen's books were referred to me a long time ago, but I had so much going on back then, I never read any.
I attended a few seminars on brain development in abused and neglected children... in the hopes of gaining insight on how the brain forms in these kinds of children and to recognize their difference in the "reasoning" process.
I'm currently reading "The Emotional Brain" by Joseph LeDoux. Not sure if I'll get any insight as to the topic of this thread, but I've sure picked up a variety of very interesting reads from the thread for the future.
Any comments on LeDoux?
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T-Bone
I've got a LOT of reading to catch up on – Bagpipes, your Change Your Brain Change Your Life and The Cry of the Soul and AmazinGrace, your book The Emotional Brain all sound interesting…And feel free to contribute any stuff you've gleaned so far from anything you've read. I think the emotional aspect is VERY IMPORTANT in this topic as well as having a personal interest in it…
Don't know if this is an accurate observation on my part but I compare the difference between how my wife [Tonto] and I deal with the mental baggage of TWI involvement. I tend to get very technical and analytical – and I guess aloof [don't know if that's the right word] like a cold clinical objective approach [maybe it's a guy thing – or my personality] – whereas Tonto has a much more personal approach – how it touches her life [like Coolwater's picture of being inside the maelstrom dealing directly with each issue]…I think for resolution both ways are necessary. I think my wife is light years ahead of me in dealing with the emotional stuff – probably due to my attitude towards feelings [which as I mentioned earlier was to ignore them]. That's probably why it took awhile for some of the weird sexual crap of TWI to hit me [like I talked about in the threads: Why You Can't Sweep It Under the Carpet and Chunks of TWI Emotional Intrusion].
Perhaps the way I learn is to back up and review, review, review, like how I read books. Maybe some think I'm trying to impress people by mentioning all the books I read. I'm not an intellectual giant, have no degree, twice a college drop-out [and that's if you count the Rome City unaccredited thing as one]. But I LOVE to read! The more complicated the book is [like Gardner's stuff], the more I have to re-read and break out the dictionary…Maybe I need to do that with my feelings. I'd appreciate any ideas along those lines. It's funny – before I started this thread I kept going back and forth on where to post it. Should it go in By the Way or Doctrinal? Shows you how I think – Doctrinal is for technical stuff.
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I Love Bagpipes
Mike, a psychologist friend of mine also thinks very highly of Amen, stating that Amen is on the cutting edge especially regarding ADD and learning challenges. (BTW, IMO ADD is greatly over diagnosed....kids are not designed to sit still. Yet I also understand that it is a very real challenge. But perhaps the challenge is not the individual, but our culture's expectations.)
AG, I'll have to put The Emotional Brain on my list too. Like t-bone, I just read alot. I have no college degree. But I have worked HARD in the field of emotional management...for my own health and sanity. (Quite literally in fact.)
T-bone part of your analytical approach I'm sure is just part of who you are. Male or female? I've heard/read like everyone else that men are more analytical, but then some men are very much in touch with their emotional side. (And the men I know like this are a far cry from homosexuality.) Funny, I was wondering why this thread was in doctrinal...now I understand! :) I have totally stayed away from doctinal; just not into it at this point in my life.
TWI and that soul suicide/murder stuff I mentioned? Part of the reason I buried some of my femininity/sensuality is because of TWI conditioning. The sad part is that I am a woman!! That is soul suicide, huh? A woman tuning out her femininity. Of course it wasn't JUST TWI conditioning. Most behaviours/responses result from multifaceted reasons.
Thanks for this thread!!
Since I have no college degree the initials after my name (instead of phd) are kgbe = knowledge gained by experience. Does that count for something?
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What The Hey
Interesting in all this discussion about "changing your mind" no one (so far as far as I can tell) has returned to the scriptures on this topic. Maybe it's because to truly change your mind one first has to repent, and repentance is not something indicitive of the mindset of so many people today.
Take a look at Matt. 4:17. "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." This was not a new message that Jesus was preaching. LONG before Jesus began to preach this message John the Baptist had preached the same thing years before, as some scholars report. It says in Matt 3:1,2: "In those days (this was years before Matt 4:17) came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea." "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand".
The word "repent" in both these verses, Matt 3:2 and 4:17 is the word, "metanoeo", which literally means: to have another mind, or a change of mind. Metanoeo is made up of two root words - meta refering here to "change", noia meaning "mind".
The reason I believe there is a lot of resistance in regard to one repenting is because of the negative connotations preachers tend to impose on it - i.e. specifically that one must first recognize all their faults and their shortcomings. Truthfully speaking, no one wants to readily admit that they "messed up". That's the last thing on the Christians mind, especially when they are being taught (often times simultaneously) that they are/have been made righteous in Christ Jesus. Yet repentance is not only how one begins the Christian life, it is also how one continues to serve as a Christian. "The kingdom of heaven is at hand - it is near." If you were to quit breathing this very second you would be immediately confronted with "the kingdom of heaven" and if you were in it or not. The Kingdom is at hand, meaning it is near.
Not many people realize repentance, or literally, "changing one's mind" is a matter of life and death. There are people who hold onto offenses for years - decades even, for something that happened to them more than 20 years ago as if it had happened yesterday afternoon. Why is it when we talk about changing our minds, repentance and forgiveness are usually the last things we tend to think about, let alone do?" Just some food for thought here.
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CoolWaters
Whoa! That acid that twig leader gave me once has hellacious flashbacks, man.
Oh, wait...
This is real, isn't it?
Or is it?
Whoa.
Twig messed me up, man.
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sirguessalot
i just wanna say...hats off to tbone and the rest for carrying this thread, fer sure
i mean wow...gratitude all around
i'm glad someone had the heart and courage to ask the question...
the simple asking of "what does it take to change your mind?"
cuz yeah...with all the names and books and fields of study popping up on this thread
...each one quite the "white rabbit" for googling
...now we're getting into post-metaphysics and integral psychology
which gets into post-post modern science and spirituallity and all kinds of interesting stuff
shadows and spirit and dreams and neurons...oh my!
many things that could really help a lot of people get through our TWI experiences
if one can make it through those feelings of "advanced class table"
and too...when we get beyond talking about mere "brain science"
and into the actual emerging sciences and practices of body and mind and spirit...
...yowza...welcome to the 21st century
and in ways that seem to go really really good
with a lot of the old and old old and old old old doctrines and practices
imo
i think this thread could continue to be a real live wire
and really open up to a lot lot lot lot more links and subjects and writers and words, whatnot
at least i know i hope to spend more time with it in this way
and i hope we can touch this stuff here and handle the possible allergic reactions with as much compassion as we can muster
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T-Bone
I think our discussion has been more of the "mechanics" of changing your mind and decision-making. Gardner's analysis of the repentance of Paul noted in my initial post got into what factors Gardner thought motivated Paul to change his mind after the resurrected Jesus appeared to him...I think it's extremely valuable to learn how our minds work - even as a Christian trying to follow Scriptures like Psalm 4: 4 "...when you are on your beds, search your hearts..." and II Cor. 13: 5 "Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves..."
It's my belief that a lot of situations in life demand just good old fashion common sense or call it clear thinking or critical thinking - [not involving a moral dilemma] - such as where to work, if I should buy a house, who to marry...Speaking of decision-making, there's an interesting book I read right after I left TWI: Decision Making & the Will of God: A Biblical Alternative to the Traditional View by Garry Friesen with Robin Maxson.
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sirguessalot
hm...interesting comparison wth
what does it take to repent?
a few important questions come to mind
and not directed at anyone in particular
...
just what does it take to turn our programmed thoughts and emotions around?
our bent and broken habits and feelings and ways of being and doing?
how can we turn our lives completely around?
and find the key to newness in the inward man?
that inward logos divine...
are we not to be disciples of transformation and renewing and refreshing?
are we not to be actual practicing changers and repenters and metamorphers of thought, heart and deed?
isnt the good book of full to overflowing with scripture on this subject?
on how NOT to stay the same old natural ways?
and how to change change change without fear in the face of God and the Devil and the whole host of heaven if we dare?
prior to sin...man was naked and NOT ashamed
and so...how can we change our minds without shame?
where have all these taboos come from?
how can we repent without fear?
how can we turn inside out and upside down?
no, not just for our sake
but for the sake of the world who has to put up with us
and no not just once
but with every breath of life that flows in and out of our soul
if God is the God of the living
and God is here and now
right here on this forum...
why do we severely restrict ourselves to only believing the books of dead dead dead men?
...
not trying to come across like a hot lamp, really
or expecting anyone to answer tit for tat
like so many of the old proverbs say...
the questions take us farther than the answers
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I Love Bagpipes
Tbone wrote:
"But I LOVE to read! The more complicated the book is [like Gardner's stuff], the more I have to re-read and break out the dictionary…Maybe I need to do that with my feelings. I'd appreciate any ideas along those lines."
Idea along these lines: Have you tried journaling? Like I said it changed my life on all levels...and still continues to do so. Website: mindbodymedicine.com might have some starters. I was already journaling when I found it. Through the program offered from this sight I was able to totally rid the pain of a herniated disc (confirmed with an MRI). YES!! Long story..but short is a 30-day specific journaling program. It ain't easy...but it asks pointed questions. One of the goals of the journal is to learn to stop expressing emotions as physical symptoms. BUT it would be a good exercise for ANYONE to do (imo). Anyway, that is one suggestion. (And I have other journal stuff if interested.)
The repent stuff....I do not enjoy doctrinal debates and so will not get into one. However I thought some about the repent factor. (And I've thought of it much since leaving TWI in October.) And Sirguess I too thought of nakedness...naked and total surrender. As I stand naked (no cover) before my God and allow surrender, He can change my heart. That scares the biggebees out of TWI mindset because so much is based on CONTROL.
And I thought about "as a man thinketh in his heart so is he" and "out of the heart come the issues of life."
It doesn't say brain or mind or soul...it says heart. After studying Heartmath stuff, I do not believe that the references in the Bible (and other languages) to the heart are just a figure of speech. Actual "thinking" takes place within our physiological hearts. "Did not our heart burn within us?" We have all experienced it. It is powerful and life changing, but it is not linear. YOU GOT TO LOOK AT THE heartmath.org STUFF. See if it turns you on like it has turned me on. I just rarely have anyone to really discuss it with. :) ( Well, you don't HAVE to look at it...but if you do you might like it.
)
I'll shut up now. What a fun thread!!!
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T-Bone
Bagpipes, I think you're onto something there! Holy Cow!!! I feel like one those people - we've all seen them - after EVERY twig, EVERY teaching, EVERY meeting they'd say something like "God - I got so delivered by that teaching." And you can't help but think - "wow they must REALLY be screwed up!" ... I have read so many books and studied so many topics in the Bible but never had much social exchange with anybody after I left TWI. And I don't think a lot of things really came together for me. Until I came to Grease Spot. I read some, reply some - there's something happening. I'm processing stuff!
Seriously - the journaling idea sounds like a cool way to process stuff!!!!!!!! Thanks!!!!!!!!
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Tbone..
LOL :)
I am not thinking, "wow, he must really be screwed up." I usually have that thought concerning moi. :blink:
Posting on GSC is like journaling in a way....except most folks will sensor. (And we all hope we will.
) When you personally journal there is NO sensorship. And if a person keeps at it, the beautiful and the "ugly" will manifest.
Another thing journaling has done for me is to help me embrace goals. I used to hate the word "goals" because it was another darned standard that I would fail at. And still I prefer the word "dreams." After about 4 years of journaling I realized I had dreams/goals that were coming to pass. I began to notice that these goals/dreams were some of the thoughts I had been writing for years. It is a nice side benefit. Yet at the same time I realize that not all my dreams will come true (like growing gills and being able to stay under the ocean water for as long as I want..hee)....but there is always room to hope. Hope. Hope. Hope. One can't go wrong with hope. Even if I die, and I die hoping...it makes the process gentler.
I found Dare to Win by the Chicken Soup guys to be a simple book on goals and a life mission statement.
Have you checked out heartmath.org yet? (I just won't let that die will I? :) )
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sirguessalot
regarding journaling...
here is an idea that will change minds
(which, according to most traditions..."mind" included "heart")...
when facing a problem with someone in the past, present or future...living or dead
try journaling like this....
btw...probably dont do this unless you are ready for some unravelling and processing and interior transformation..this can be some potent stuff
and...like most journaling...you'll get the best results if you dont hold back
...
1) journal your feelings and thoughts towards the person/persons/issue in 3rd person
write about IT as a he, she, him, her, they, them, it, etc...
this can even be about a troublesome positive feeling towards IT
...
2) journal about the issue in 2nd person
where you write to that person as a "you"
but do it in dialogical form, where the other person also addresses "you"
and most likely even defends themselves
like writing a screen play where you have to role-play the other's perspective
...
3) journal in the 1st person perspective of the other
where you write as the voice of the IT
...
4) go back and read what you wrote
take some time to reflect, and ask some good questions
...
btw..yeah...a big thumbs up on the heartmath stuff
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sirguessalot
Tbone..you wrote...
though i could probably write for years on this one...
...a few thoughts...if i may
the best thing an intellectual can do is find a practice that helps you become more mindful of simple bodily feelings and sensations
and believe me...this is a deep deep subject..not shallow or unintelligent at all
and such things are founded on the simple sensation of breathing
and ways of practicing being mindful of the mechanics and sensations of your basic human breath
and believe me, there are a gazillion ways to practice this...which is good news, imo
my personal practice is a synthesis of more than a few
depending on what i am doing (eating, working, sex, exercise, sleeping, dreaming, suffering, etc...)
to the point where i am becoming more mindful of my breath pretty much throughout the day
and its amazing how it doesnt take very long before one becomes unconsciously competent in this sort of thing
and what these kinds of things do
is bring the gravity of one's awareness from mere brain to the entire body/mind
and more or less helps free us from the gift/schism of western duality
and escape our identification with the thinker
again...probably dont approach this sort of thing unless you are ready for some potent interior transformation
and...like Gardner...changing our mind can have a lot to do with changing our perception of the nature of the mind itself...and our relationship with it
and...kinda like what was written about the return of The Kid...how "heez gonna meet you in the air"
man o man...all sort of stuff on this one
heck...if you integrate it with the shadow journaling in my previous post...
yowza...fasten yer friggin interior seatbelt
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Sirguess..
I've practiced writing in different persons a couple times. It helped me mainly with perspective, which results (even if slightly) in transformation.
Also (this may sound strange) I've journaled writing in a circle and waves around the page or mind mapping (the bubble or line thing) and i've journaled with the opposite hand (hee). The hand thing really got me thinking and writing about how much our hands know. It was quite revealing...the differences between my left and right...maybe I'll post that sometime.
Then I went thru a phase where I started indexing my journals, but I got tired of that. I do put notes at the top of a page to help me find an entry now. (It's hard though to remember which journal it is in.)
I sort of cheat with journaling because I know shorthand, so I can pen pretty quickly.
One thing so fun/deep about journaling (for me) is that ANYTHING goes. This took awhile for me to develop...to not be afraid. I'm sure some of that fear was because of my TWI mindset.
Did you read about Freezeframing and Cut Through on the heartmath site Sir? These are just two of the "mindfulness" exercises heartmath has developed. . one of the "gazillion ways" you mentioned, but with a twist. I was into meditation for a few years before TWI and heartmath does take mindfulness a level deeper(imo)...and heartmath may be more attractive to the Western mindset. I still speak in tongues regularly (duck :) )...it is an intimate part of my life. After practicing some of the heartmath stuff (just a little...simple awareness goes a long way), my prayers no longer come from my head...they REALLY come from the area around my heart. (I'm not exalting me...but that's just what happened.)
I first heard of heartmath in two totally unrelated articles. Each intrigued me and "heartmath" stuck in my head. A few months later I needed a new book to read...but wasn't sure what. So I perused the book store shelves and saw a book, The Heartmath Solution. And thus...I've been a heartmath fan ever since.
Okay...I'll shut up now about the heartmath stuff. Don't mean to bore you.
Funny thing...when I was little I always thought/felt I dreamt (sleep dreaming) in my abdomen. I thought that until in my teens at which time I was taught that I dreamt in my brain. It sounded so cold, but I thought, "Well, I guess THEY are right." After discovering that the mind is in the whole body...and a hosts of it acutally is in my abdomen...I've decided I was right as a kid!!!
Tbone,
I visited heartmath.org this morning and didn't have any trouble getting in. Maybe you went to heartmath.com which is the business aspect of heartmath.
Another note...all this stuff....I am (obviously) no "expert." Shoot the more I learn the more I realize how much I don't know. AND I have deeply considered this stuff about the heart from a biblical perspective...and still do. Still chewing on and endeavoring to understand it. I guess that is a lifelong process. Maybe another post.
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