Did you read about Freezeframing and Cut Through on the heartmath site Sir?
yes, very interesting stuff.
and I just love the new ways that new technologies are getting involved in all things.
also, how roles in childhood development and well-being are being considered.
and how it really seems to be getting beyond all the typically "spiritual" narcissism of modernity.
I was into meditation for a few years before TWI and heartmath does take mindfulness a level deeper(imo)...
well...i hafta say, that "meditation" is HUGE umbrella of a topic, that spans many many cultures, many millenia, and is naturally suffering from the same kinds of post-modern shallownesses as too many other old and old old and old old old things.
some of the meditative traditions are so deep and sophisticated as to be "buried" in alien language-sets, that the depth and details are pretty much out-of-reach of westerners, who quite naturally lack the decades it would take to study, practice and grasp but a narrow slice of what has actually been expressed in those traditions...and this could be said of the world's traditions...north, east, west, south and in between
some of the eastern disciplines have mapped and compared the various layers of the vast upper atmospheres of consciousness in such fine fine detail, that they have developed dozens of classifications for what we in the west typically narrow down to a few.
so, perhaps it's not a greater overall depth that heartmath provides, but a language-set and processes that speak more directly to the modern life
btw...not saying heartmath does not go deep, or that it does not have an especially potent leverage for contemporary western minds, but that it naturally lacks the centuries upon centuries that the lineage-holders have spent in all the many various forms...heartmath (and the like) seems more of a post-post-modern synthesis...and a damn good and highly relevent one...which is very good news, imo
and btw..i love EVERYTHING you have written here...thanks for such soulful nudity, truly
oh...and another btw....have you ever heard of the game "Journey to the Wild Divine?" A beautifully interactive game world that responds mostly to biofeedback. I bought it when it first came out a few years ago.
...sorry if i get a little kidlike with this topic
"well...i hafta say, that "meditation" is HUGE umbrella of a topic, that spans many many cultures, many millenia, and is naturally suffering from the same kinds of post-modern shallownesses as too many other old and old old and old old old things.
some of the meditative traditions are so deep and sophisticated as to be "buried" in alien language-sets, that the depth and details are pretty much out-of-reach of westerners, who quite naturally lack the decades it would take to study, practice and grasp but a narrow slice of what has actually been expressed in those traditions...and this could be said of the world's traditions...north, east, west, south and in between
some of the eastern disciplines have mapped and compared the various layers of the vast upper atmospheres of consciousness in such fine fine detail, that they have developed dozens of classifications for what we in the west typically narrow down to a few.
so, perhaps it's not a greater overall depth that heartmath provides, but a language-set and processes that speak more directly to the modern life
btw...not saying heartmath does not go deep, or that it does not have an especially potent leverage for contemporary western minds, but that it naturally lacks the centuries upon centuries that the lineage-holders have spent in all the many various forms...heartmath (and the like) seems more of a post-post-modern synthesis...and a damn good and highly relevent one...which is very good news, imo"
(I still have trouble with the quote thingy...sorry.)
:blink: Duh on me!! You are so right! Thanks for expressing that so well. I guess..it has been depth for MOI! And the timing upon which I found heartmath work was so needed that it struck a very deep chord. And I confess that much of the attraction for me is the post modern synthesis and relevancy.
Sirguess wrote: "and btw..i love EVERYTHING you have written here...thanks for such soulful nudity, truly"
Big chuckle. Your welcome...and right back atcha. However, in all honesty, I have only bared my shoulders.
Sirguess wrote: "oh...and another btw....have you ever heard of the game "Journey to the Wild Divine?" A beautifully interactive game world that responds mostly to biofeedback. I bought it when it first came out a few years ago."
I have put it on my favorites to look at and play with when I am inclined. I will definitely play around with it. I have not tried HMs freezeframe puter interactive game. Not likely to spend $$ on stuff like that at this time....but love to play with the samples. :)
BTW: I adore "kidlike"....I sing and dance with preschoolers as my occupation. Hope I always keep the kid in me.
Another note along these sidelines....Are you familiar with Enery Medicine by Donna Eden?
Next post (perhaps) will be contemplations regarding the heart and the Bible.....with a twist of course.
Thanks Sirguessalot and Bagpipes on the journaling ideas...I think I've had a mental block about journaling from my experience in the Corps - it was recommended we keep one...I think I was the Ultimate Way-Brain Flunky - when it came to journaling I wrote a lot - but it's all nice and edited and way-speak and thoughts, goals, and ideas that TWI would have approved...I'm serious - once you leave TWI it takes a lot of hard work to re-learn how to communicate with other people - and your inner self...Bagpipes asked me in Chat last night have I ever journaled - I said yeah but during in-residence Corps training - and I wasn't kidding when I said I Googled the Internet for some journaling tips - how lame is that?!?! Really thanks for these ideas - funny ....I started out this thread getting into how we make big changes with overt steps - - - I'm more intrigured by the more subtle side of things that this thread has gotten into...
(Well, shoot. I typed a very nicely written response to this Tbone...and it got lost (I guess) in cyberville somewhere :blink:. So I'm gonna try again. Oh I do hope I can be eloquent... and I figured out the quotey thing! :) )
I tried journaling in the Corps as well (78 - 83)...and the entries were always "nice". Plus I never saw its relevance. I journaled a few times since then, but alas, did not see the relevance.
In 1998 I was watching a PBS show about the diary of a midwife from the 1700s. It is one of the few personal written records regarding women of that time. It was simple...what she wrote. I thought to myself that I can do that.
At the time I was watching this show I was in the throws of a severe asthma attack (ended up in the hospital AGAIN that night). I hated where I was; I was trapped in my own body. I took a pen and thrashed across a page the rage and self hate I felt. That was the beginning of my road on journaling. And I've journaled ever since.
BTW, my last asthma attack was January, 1999. Since then I have been healed of many various chronic illnesses with which I suffered. I KNOW journaling was a major catalyst for these changes.
I thank God and applaud it all.... Thank you very much!
PS: I hope this isn't a duplicate post...like the one in cyberville suddenly appears.
If you can't change your mind, are you sure you still have one?
I thought that would go well with this thread.
Some down home country style thinkin'
chuckle!!!!!!!
Oh but CM, no one ever stated that you can't change your mind! Neurogenesis (I think that is the right term..or brain plasticity?) is a real thing...and there is evidence now to support it. Don't ask me what evidence; because I can't remember where I read it or what it is. :)
I am rambling some here. These are thoughts and questions more than answers. And there is more behind what I am posting here...but I don't want to drag the post too long. I have contemplated this for a couple years...and am still not settled. I have been learning to trust my heart...endeavoring to break thru TWI conditioning. Then I think maybe it is not so much as trust my heart, as to listen to my heart to know what is going on inside. My heart can be deceived, but at the same time, somehow I can learn to hear and know what to trust. Rambling I know...please excuse me.
I'd appreciate any thoughts...if you are so led.
Hope this isn't deemed too much off topic. If so....apologies.
Okay...here are some thoughts on the deceitful heart, Jer.17:9.
(All scriptures are from the Amplified or KJV (I think).)
Jer. 17:9-10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]? I the Lord search the mind, I try the heart, even to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."
another translation is: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can undersatnd it?"
In Strong's the word deceitful is not the typical word used for deceitful (deception, dishonesty, treachary). Deceitful from Jer. 17 :9 is translated crooked and polluted other places and is defined: "deceitful; rough, bumpy; footprint".
These two places are the two other usages of "deceitful" from Jer. 17:9.
Hos. 6:8: "Gilead is a city of evildoers: it is tracked with bloody [footprints]"
Is. 40:4: "...the crooked and uneven shall be made straight and level, and the rough places a plain."
"Beyond cure" is used when David's child by Bathsheba was sick and died. (II Sam, 12:15)
If the heart is deceitful how is it that that deceitful heart believes unto righteousness? (Rom 10:10)
If it is beyond cure, what is the key to our wholeness? (Prov. 17:22: "a merry heart worketh an excellent cure", Ps. 51:10: "Create in my a clean heart oh God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me.")
Now for the really "odd" thoughts about this. PLEASE these are simply thoughts. And I am going to simply copy them from a journal entry.
"The Word doesn't say believe in thy mind. It says believe in thy heart. What is the difference between mind and soul and heart? I think of layers. The heart is like the innermost point, the core of the layers. The soul of the flesh is in the blood. The blood carries all that cellular information..and the blood goes through the heart. What is the connection between the physical heart, the blood, the brain, the mind, the thoughts? I wonder if that connection is beyond our comprehension...like quarks and strings....like the vastness of the universe. The more we learn about how cells work the more we see a universe within that cell.
Maybe the word "deceitful" in Jer. 17:9 alludes more to "complexity, depth". The heart is more complex above all else...the universe, the cellular make up of living things, etc.
Another thought: Blood is rejuvenated in the heart. The blood of Jesus Christ washes us clean...he had pure blood. The natural heart is beyond cure, but the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses that heart..creates a new heart."
Okay..so this may just be a bunch of bs....if so...well that's what it is!!
In my continuing effort to analyze the life out of something [LOL ] – I've been doing some thinking [oiiii – again with the thinking - LOL ] about how we change our minds and the role of emotions…I dusted off my Christian Counselingbooks and reviewed some things on emotions. I thought I'd share them here as a springboard for discussion.
The following is from Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology & Counseling, Second Edition, Edited by David G. Benner & Peter C Hill, co. 1999, Baker Books, pages 392 through 396 [boldfaced is my emphasis]:
Emotion. The word is derived from the Latin emovare, meaning to move. Affect, passion, and mood are other words that describe some aspect of the same phenomenon. In common usage emotion refers primarily to perceived feelings, while affect includes the drives that are presumed to generate both conscious and unconscious feelings. Passion is intense emotion, and mood is emotion of long duration…W. James in The Principles of Psychology [1890] was correct when he stated that emotions are reflexes. They arise as a result of stimuli that have symbolic meaning to the individual…The stimuli that arise as a result of the behavior of other people have both cognitive and emotional qualities…
…Human beings have always desired rationality; however, they generally do not behave rationally but are driven by emotions. Ideas are of no value until emotions are attached to them, since the emotion provides the force for action. It is imperative, then that as one accumulates a body of knowledge, appropriate emotions be cathected [invested with mental or emotional energy] to ideas in order that they may have value. Values are ideas with cathected emotions that make a favorable difference in life…Thinking and feeling are inextricably mixed. Thus it is not surprising that all mental disorder is characterized by disturbances in both…The personality disorders represent dysfunctional exaggerations of normal personality attributes. Only when personality traits are inflexible and maladaptive and cause either significant impairment in social or occupational functioning or subjective distress do they constitute personality disorder…
…In contrast to the Stoics, who viewed emotion as irrational, and the Epicureans, who acquiesced to the inevitability of emotion, Jesus realistically faced the role of emotion in human life and provided guidelines to control negative and facilitate positive emotion…The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life. It was noted earlier that emotion does not exist by itself but is always attached to ideas…
From Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney J. Hunter, co. 1990 Abingdon Press, pages 351 and 352:
Emotion. At the level of conscious experience, a state of feeling that has motivational and cue-producing properties that organize and guide cognition and action…There is substantial empirical support for the assumption that each of the emotions has adaptive, motivational functions. For example, interest motivates learning, exploration, and creative endeavors. Joy facilitates social interaction and alleviates stress. Anger mobilizes energy for action against frustrating barriers which may include insults to personal integrity and oppression. Shame motivates development of skills and competencies that strengthen the self and make it less vulnerable to humiliation. Guilt, believed by some to be a fundamental emotion despite its lack of a characteristic expression, fosters reparation and the development of a sense of personal responsibility…
And finally [yes finally I mean it!]from The Christian Counselor's Manual by Jay E. Adams, co. 1973, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Chapter 13 The Language of Emotion and Action, pages 112 through 116:
…The terms attitude, feeling, and behavior must be distinguished. They are easily confused because at points they converge or overlap and because they are all integrally related…The word feeling refers to the perception of a bodily state as pleasant or unpleasant…It is true that feelings may differ in intensity or kind, but fundamentally there are two categories into which all may be classified: good or bad. Visceral, muscular, galvanic, or other emotional responses of the body are responses to judgments made about the environment and oneself. These judgments trigger body chemistry to orient the body in a particular direction to meet a specific situation…An attitude is that combination of presuppositions, beliefs, convictions, and opinions that make up one's habitual stance at any given time toward a subject, person, or act. It is a mindset that strongly influences behavior. In counseling, attitudes may be attacked and changed more directly than feelings, which, in most instances can be altered only indirectly through change of attitude and action [behavior]…In its narrower sense, behavior must be distinguished from a larger global usage that is employed by many behaviorists. The term behavior is best used to describe those activities of a whole person [not a gland] that may be judged by the law of God. Behavior is responsible conduct…
that first paragraph sounds like the Lord trying the reigns Bagpipes
Hmmmm...not quite sure what your trying to tell me CM. "Trying the reigns".... But perhaps your next post (after the one quoted)...is what you are trying to tell me. You stated "whatever was good I figure it would stick with me." That is a good one for me to chew on. :)
Tbone....
I enjoyed the excerpts. I did a tiny etymology work on the word "emotion" some time ago....all I recall now is that it meant "movement out." Thanks for the reminder.
"The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life." That is put so well. I have a journaling exercise that helped change my emotional responses through cognitive work. But I did not necessarily use scripture...because many scriptures (at the time I was working diligently to change by self talk) brought up undesirable feelings and bodily responses. Maybe I will post the exercise at some point.
When I read these excerpts I thought of a change I had to make in my self talk. I have suffered with bipolar disorder and thus very intense emotional states. In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity. So..I changed the wording in my head to "regulate my emotions"; that I could do. My psychologist pointed out that I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour. That too helped, because I did not act out my moods.
Now I have grown more. The bipolar is not an issue. And I have learned I actually can control some of my emotions....but other times I can't. And that is okay. I can listen. I can monitor. I can adjust. And scripture has been a MAJOR player in that.
"…In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity…I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour…"
That's a great post, Bagpipes – and on that note let me share some more relevant points from
Competent to Counsel by Jay E. Adams, co. 1970, Baker Book House, pages 93 to 97 on Feelings and Behavior [boldfaced is my emphasis]:
…One very pertinent passage is found in Genesis 4: 3-7. When God rejected Cain's offering [Abel in contrast to Cain brought the firstlings and fat, i.e., the best], Cain became angry and upset, "and his face fell" [vs. 5]. God then rhetorically asked Cain, "Why are you depressed?" and pointed the way toward overcoming it: "If you do right, will it [your face] not be lifted up?" Here, God sets forth the important principle that behavior determines feelings…People feel bad because of bad behavior; feelings flow from actions. This relationship between feelings and behavior is set forth clearly in Scripture. For example, Peter often pointed out that good living produces good feelings. In his first letter [3: 10], he quoted Psalm 34: 12, 13:
Let him who means to love life, and see good days, refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile; and let him turn away from evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it.
So to have good days, one must do good deeds…Peter speaks of the value of maintaining a good conscience,
…so that in the thing which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame .
A good conscience, according to Peter, depends upon good behavior…Conscience, which is man's ability to evaluate his own actions, activates unpleasant visceral and other bodily warning devices when he sins…These responses serve to alert him to the need for correction of the wrong behavior which the conscience would not tolerate. Bad feelings are the red light on the dashboard flashing out at us…Visceral discomfort is a God-structured means of telling human beings that they have violated their standards…
What must one do to set his conscience at rest? The same thing he does to extinguish the red light on the dashboard. He doesn't take a hammer and smash the red light. Instead, he gets out and lifts the hood to see what is wrong. His problem is not with the light on the dashboard…The only satisfactory way to deal with conscience is to set it to rest by lifting the hood on the faulty behavior that activated the warning device…
One physician recently wrote:
Equally important is the belief that the patient can do something about his behavior and not merely talk about it. We've made life hard for ourselves and our patients by postulating that only a change in attitude or motivation will change behavior, overlooking the alternate possibility that changed behavior can change attitudes. [Marianne Eckardt, "Roundtable: Female Orgasm," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (April 1968), Vol. 2, No. 1, p. 46]
She concluded: "Our psychology of introspection has too often neglected the psychology of doing."
Something might be said about the human nervous system with respect to behavior and feeling in counseling. There are basically two sides to this system. One side is emotional and involuntary. The other side, associated with problem solving and voluntary action has to do with behavior…Emotional states flow secondarily from the behavior or the voluntary system…There is a close relationship or a connection between the two so that they can't really be divided as precisely as one might on paper. While there is no direct voluntary access to the emotions, the emotions can be reached indirectly through the voluntary system, because extensive fiber overlapping in the cortex allow unified correlation of the two systems. Thus actions affect emotions…
And below some emotions captured by our Video-Emotion Corder:
:(
And this one below of T-Bone after reading so much:
T-bone, I really want to read your stuff and, when I can read it without getting a headache, I do.... Is there any way you can type with the "normal" stuff that's provided on the board? :(
That font and size just makes it hard on these old eyes....
A guy I hung out with for years in twi realised one day while driving around that unbelievers seemed a lot happier than him. That helped change his mind very quickly !!
A guy I hung out with for years in twi realised one day while driving around that unbelievers seemed a lot happier than him. That helped change his mind very quickly !!
LOL - That's funny but so fitting to post here, Allan - I know sometimes I tend to make situations and choices so complicated!!! ....... Love your post - thanks!!!!
behavior determines feelings…People feel bad because of bad behavior; feelings flow from actions. This relationship between feelings and behavior is set forth clearly in Scripture. For example, Peter often pointed out that good living produces good feelings.
Very poignant and true. I think this is part of why TWIts are so depressed, sad, conflicted.... Out of one side of their mouth they say to do good unto all men, but out of the other side they say that we don't contribute to designer causes or help folks because Jesus said, "the poor will always be with you".
TWIts don't do good - not even within their own group. Many want to do good - I did - my ex wouldn't let me waste OUR resources on egg-sucking unbelievers. Other TWIts consider their doctrine as an excuse to NOT do good, and those are the ones quoting that Jesus quote all the time.
I think that's part of why folks feel so much relief when they do finally make that scary first step to leave TWI. I know for me, it was such a joy that almost every day I would go through the "change & receipts" toll booth just so I could pay for a few of the cars behind me. I have the SunPass that allows me to zoom through with my little electronic bank account, but I wanted so bad to do something nice for folks because I felt so good myself. That, in turn, made me feel that much better - one I was putting a smile on someone's face anonymously and two - I was doing something I had been forbidden to do for nearly ten years.
Right after leaving TWI we did two things. We took out a car loan(gasp!) for a really nice vehicle, one that wouldn't require weekend fixing to keep running for a long long time.
We had been taking turns going to the school parent meetings, because they were on a HF night. Now that we were out, we could go together!
My husband just laughed as we left for that first meeting together, and said he didn't even feel guilty.
Something I've been thinking about in regards to my initial post on this thread: How does this stuff on changing your mind relate to me dealing with other people...A lot of that How to Win Friends and Influence People stuff just turns me off - I think it's manipulative. I never was good at any sales job. But being a Christian I think there's a genuine need to find a way to get people to consider Christ...So what I'm thinking is that [in light of my gatekeeper in charge of Gardner's 7 mind-changing factors analogy] - I shouldn't try to sell someone on my idea. The best that I can do is sell them on the idea of investigating the merits of my idea. That puts them in control of the whole decision-making process - which in my opinion - is the way it should be.
Okay, I finally finished reading "most" of this thread....I wish I had jumped in earlier, but sometimes things just seem to be way over my head - or I don't have the mental energy to contribute.
Candace Pert - "Molecules of Emotion" --- AWESOME!!!! Bagpipes, that was THE FIRST book I read after starting therapy. My therapist loaned it to me and it made sooooo much sense to me. It really communicated.
I have also read stuff on the history of beliefs, religion, Christianity and cultures and such....
I like getting away from the "Bible based" discussions because I like to consider sources outside of the Bible. It's not the end all and be all that TWI lead us to believe, imo. I need to consider, evaluate, reason, assess things without the black & white "scripture and verse" that we were confined to in TWI.
I LOVED "What the Bleep Do We Know?" - It's like spirituality meets metaphysics meets quantum physics and Candace Pert is one of the professionals in it. :)
Bagpipes, I'm excited to look at the sites you've mentioned - including the heartmath.com ;) You've really done a lot of reading and research on this....thank you! It's helping us to weed through stuff, too.
TBone, something else you may be interested in reading is "Why People Believe Weird Things" - it's by the founder of skeptic.com. It's more about logical thinking - reasoning - and also blind acceptance.
One of the most puzzling things for me regarding changing your mind is the teaching on the Holocaust and how it didn't happen and was grossly exaggerated.... I had all the evidence in the world shown to me growing up - including the privilege of sitting with several survivors one on one - Corrie Ten Boom being one of them. Pictures, stories, tattoos, tears.....tales from the soldiers who were there and saw it with their own eyes!!!! But all it took was some comments from leadership in TWI and "The Myth of the Six Million" to make me change my mind. :( I'm ashamed and embarrassed - but this topic is covered in the "Weird Things" book and that's why I have it. It think the resonance part of your first posts covers that pretty succinctly, though.
I don't want to get too long-winded. Great thread! Thank you very much!!!!
The best that I can do is sell them on the idea of investigating the merits of my idea.
T-Bone
I'm kind of reminded of the saying "People won't care about how much you know until they know how much you care."
I used to let my emotions rule me. God's Word changed that for me.... changed it so much that now, some people think there is something wrong with me. They see me as someone who supresses emotion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Being a spiritual person has allowed me to be in control of my emotions and has enabled me to deal with extremely stressful situations with a level head about me. Before I became spiritual, this was not always the case. But at present, with all situations in my life that involve emotions, I let the fruits of the spirt rule. I don't call it "renewing my mind". I dislike any wording from twi days. I just remind myself that I need to have patience, meekness.... and then, like a miracle, calmness rules.
When calm, thoughts flow and stress takes a hike.
I have lots of friends but I have some enemies also. I don't much care about my enemies. They are truly evil people and don't deserve space in my brain except I do ask God to change their heart . I love my friends. They make me feel appreciated for who I am. They make it known that they would like to have the patience I have. This tells me I have sparked an interest in them regarding the merits of my methodolgy (is that a word?). It gives me an opportunity to let them know what I know, and an opportunity to be a living example for the God I serve.
On spiritual matters that I do not understand (and there are many), I've only changed my mind to know that it's ok not to have all the answers. I freely admit to being a former brainwashed believe in twi, however, my experience was mostly signs, miracles and wonders. (I left when LCM became pres). I don't have to feel guilt about things I don't undersand. I serve a loving God who will give me the time I need to figure things out.
- I shouldn't try to sell someone on my idea. The best that I can do is sell them on the idea of investigating the merits of my idea. That puts them in control of the whole decision-making process - which in my opinion - is the way it should be.
So well stated tbone!!
Moi being so fresh out of TWI...this speaks volumes. I so enjoy meeting people and enjoy conversation. It's stimulating..the exchange of ideas and possibilities. To be able to FEEL free to express (and discover) my OWN ideas is something I'm growing into. GSC is a forum for me to grow in that discovery/expression.
I avoided How To Win Friends And Influence People for two decades. I finally read it about 8 or so years ago. Read it a couple times actually. My motivation? I wanted to become my own best friend. And actually I loved the book...great bio sketches...one thing I enjoy about Carnegie....all those real life stories.
Bagpipes, I'm excited to look at the sites you've mentioned - including the heartmath.com ;) You've really done a lot of reading and research on this....thank you! It's helping us to weed through stuff, too.
YW! And thank you dear Belle...for being here when I need/ed you!
On spiritual matters that I do not understand (and there are many), I've only changed my mind to know that it's ok not to have all the answers.
Another big freedom factor upon leaving TWI!! "It's okay to not have all the answers.."
Incident (I hope it doesn't freak you out and send you screaming into the night... :blink: There is a purpose behind this madness I share. ;) I appreciate any of you taking time to read this. :) ):
It was December, 1995(?). I had suffered 2 bouts of pneumonia since the end of September. The asthma was full blown...nothing was working. The attacks would assault randomly, sometimes 4 times per day.
It was midnight. I sat naked on the side of my bed soaked in sweat and chills. My chest felt as if an elephant sat upon it; my lungs were filled with fluid. The epinephrine wasn't working; the alubterol in the nebulizer wasn't working; the steroids hadn't worked; the antibiotics hadn't worked; the other drugs and the foods and homeopathy and vitamins were not working. I could hardly think....the only thoughts were of death...a deep longing to die: "Why GOD??? Why can't I just stop breathing!!!!!!! Why does my body hang on????? Why doesn't my body respond???!!! Am I that detestable???!!!" I felt such deep self hatred and violation. I felt so very trapped.
At midnight I called my current medical pratitioner; she was on vacation in Nevada. She answered the phone. I felt some relief; maybe God had not totally deserted me. She gently spoke with me. I refused to go AGAIN to the hospital for the same round of treatments that were not working. On the phone line she sat with me....quietly listening to my gasps for breath life.
Then she said, "Carol....quit fighting it. Can you quit fighting it?"
I thought, "But then I am giving in....that's not right. How can I give in?"
She continued, "Carol...can you embrace the attack? I know that sounds strange...but just try to embrace it. I will be right here if you need me. I am going to pray after we hang up and send as much love your way as I can.
Embrace it...don't fight it love."
We hung up...and I began to "embrace" (the best I knew how) the assault upon my body. I closed my eyes and in my mind and heart fell in with the heaves and violence taking place in my body. I felt almost as if I were dreaming.
I then had a "vision", if you will.
I was cradling an infant sized "blob" of black viscous goo. I felt I should let it go, but I had affection for it. I felt it was part of my identity. So I held it debating what to do with it. I decided I couldn't kill it. I placed it in a glass aquarium and watched it ooze around.
Then suddenly it wildly attacked the side of the glass. But it couldn't get out. It was like it had suction cups all over it and was violently trying to escape. I got out a pistol and shot it. It lay lifeless on the bottom of the aquarium with the shattered glass around it. I felt sadness...and at the same time a sense of relief.
End of "vision."
The attack changed at that moment becoming less violent, but didn't end for another hour. I no longer had the deep fear. Was the "blob" a devil spirit? Was it part of the self hatred? I don't know. I continued to suffer with asthma for three more years, but I know that once I embraced it...my "relationship" with this dis-ease that inhabited my body and controlled so much of my life changed. It was no longer a terrorist, though neither was it a friend. My last attack (as stated in an earlier post) was January, 1999.
End of incident.
So what does this have to do with "How do you change your mind"?
It has taken me years, (and I am still on this journey), but I learned/am learning to embrace the dark emotions in my soul....to not view my "dark side" as an enemy. I still cannot put into words exactly what it is that I have learned/am learning in this area. And to some it may sound VERY strange...and even "devilish" or unrenewed. But it has opened my heart and life to much healing...physically and emotionally. The aforementioned incident left a deep impact upon my soul.
So...all that to share the following excerpt I read this morning from Cry of the Soul. This excerpt has helped put words to my thoughts/feelings about learning to embrace and not fear the dark emotions with which I (and I assume everyone) grapples.
Excerpt from the chapter "The Goodness of God: From Suffering to Glory":
"We cautioned earlier against assuming we can directly alter our emotions. It has not been our goal to provide a guide for conquering unwanted emotions. Effort to "change" troubling emotions often involves an effort to "master" God through attempts to escape the heartache of the Fall.
The goal of avoiding heartache is both impossible and undesirable. It is impossible because we live in a fallen world and are fundamentally flawed beings--as Genesis 3, one of the foundational passages of the Bible, teaches. Perfection is reserved for heaven; while we live, we will be both the vehicles and the recipients of unrighteous emotions. This is not a warrant to justify our internal ugliness, but it clears the air of any overly optimistic assessment of human ability.
The goal to avoid anguish is undesirable because our dark emotions have a redemptive side (although this fact does not make them any less painful). Though tainted in our expression of them, they nonetheless reflect the character of God. They have the power to vocalize our deepest cry--and when that cry is uttered before God, our hearts are exposed and transformed as we glimpse His heart for us."
This excerpt may sound contradictory to my previous posts...but to me it compliments this journey of discovery keeping it in perspective.
"And that's all I have to say about tha-at," in my best Forrest Gump imitation. At least for now..... :)
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sirguessalot
and I just love the new ways that new technologies are getting involved in all things.
also, how roles in childhood development and well-being are being considered.
and how it really seems to be getting beyond all the typically "spiritual" narcissism of modernity.
well...i hafta say, that "meditation" is HUGE umbrella of a topic, that spans many many cultures, many millenia, and is naturally suffering from the same kinds of post-modern shallownesses as too many other old and old old and old old old things.
some of the meditative traditions are so deep and sophisticated as to be "buried" in alien language-sets, that the depth and details are pretty much out-of-reach of westerners, who quite naturally lack the decades it would take to study, practice and grasp but a narrow slice of what has actually been expressed in those traditions...and this could be said of the world's traditions...north, east, west, south and in between
some of the eastern disciplines have mapped and compared the various layers of the vast upper atmospheres of consciousness in such fine fine detail, that they have developed dozens of classifications for what we in the west typically narrow down to a few.
so, perhaps it's not a greater overall depth that heartmath provides, but a language-set and processes that speak more directly to the modern life
btw...not saying heartmath does not go deep, or that it does not have an especially potent leverage for contemporary western minds, but that it naturally lacks the centuries upon centuries that the lineage-holders have spent in all the many various forms...heartmath (and the like) seems more of a post-post-modern synthesis...and a damn good and highly relevent one...which is very good news, imo
and btw..i love EVERYTHING you have written here...thanks for such soulful nudity, truly
oh...and another btw....have you ever heard of the game "Journey to the Wild Divine?" A beautifully interactive game world that responds mostly to biofeedback. I bought it when it first came out a few years ago.
...sorry if i get a little kidlike with this topic
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I Love Bagpipes
Sirguess stated:
"well...i hafta say, that "meditation" is HUGE umbrella of a topic, that spans many many cultures, many millenia, and is naturally suffering from the same kinds of post-modern shallownesses as too many other old and old old and old old old things.
some of the meditative traditions are so deep and sophisticated as to be "buried" in alien language-sets, that the depth and details are pretty much out-of-reach of westerners, who quite naturally lack the decades it would take to study, practice and grasp but a narrow slice of what has actually been expressed in those traditions...and this could be said of the world's traditions...north, east, west, south and in between
some of the eastern disciplines have mapped and compared the various layers of the vast upper atmospheres of consciousness in such fine fine detail, that they have developed dozens of classifications for what we in the west typically narrow down to a few.
so, perhaps it's not a greater overall depth that heartmath provides, but a language-set and processes that speak more directly to the modern life
btw...not saying heartmath does not go deep, or that it does not have an especially potent leverage for contemporary western minds, but that it naturally lacks the centuries upon centuries that the lineage-holders have spent in all the many various forms...heartmath (and the like) seems more of a post-post-modern synthesis...and a damn good and highly relevent one...which is very good news, imo"
(I still have trouble with the quote thingy...sorry.)
:blink: Duh on me!! You are so right! Thanks for expressing that so well. I guess..it has been depth for MOI! And the timing upon which I found heartmath work was so needed that it struck a very deep chord. And I confess that much of the attraction for me is the post modern synthesis and relevancy.
Sirguess wrote: "and btw..i love EVERYTHING you have written here...thanks for such soulful nudity, truly"
Sirguess wrote: "oh...and another btw....have you ever heard of the game "Journey to the Wild Divine?" A beautifully interactive game world that responds mostly to biofeedback. I bought it when it first came out a few years ago."
I have put it on my favorites to look at and play with when I am inclined. I will definitely play around with it. I have not tried HMs freezeframe puter interactive game. Not likely to spend $$ on stuff like that at this time....but love to play with the samples. :)
BTW: I adore "kidlike"....I sing and dance with preschoolers as my occupation. Hope I always keep the kid in me.
Another note along these sidelines....Are you familiar with Enery Medicine by Donna Eden?
Next post (perhaps) will be contemplations regarding the heart and the Bible.....with a twist of course.
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I Love Bagpipes
:blink:
(Well, shoot. I typed a very nicely written response to this Tbone...and it got lost (I guess) in cyberville somewhere :blink:. So I'm gonna try again. Oh I do hope I can be eloquent... and I figured out the quotey thing! :) )
I tried journaling in the Corps as well (78 - 83)...and the entries were always "nice". Plus I never saw its relevance. I journaled a few times since then, but alas, did not see the relevance.
In 1998 I was watching a PBS show about the diary of a midwife from the 1700s. It is one of the few personal written records regarding women of that time. It was simple...what she wrote. I thought to myself that I can do that.
At the time I was watching this show I was in the throws of a severe asthma attack (ended up in the hospital AGAIN that night). I hated where I was; I was trapped in my own body. I took a pen and thrashed across a page the rage and self hate I felt. That was the beginning of my road on journaling. And I've journaled ever since.
BTW, my last asthma attack was January, 1999. Since then I have been healed of many various chronic illnesses with which I suffered. I KNOW journaling was a major catalyst for these changes.
I thank God and applaud it all....
Thank you very much!
PS: I hope this isn't a duplicate post...like the one in cyberville suddenly appears.
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CM
you guys are gettin' deep on me here! :)
If you can't change your mind, are you sure you still have one?
I thought that would go well with this thread.
Some down home country style thinkin'
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I Love Bagpipes
Oh but CM, no one ever stated that you can't change your mind! Neurogenesis (I think that is the right term..or brain plasticity?) is a real thing...and there is evidence now to support it. Don't ask me what evidence; because I can't remember where I read it or what it is. :)
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I Love Bagpipes
I am rambling some here. These are thoughts and questions more than answers. And there is more behind what I am posting here...but I don't want to drag the post too long. I have contemplated this for a couple years...and am still not settled. I have been learning to trust my heart...endeavoring to break thru TWI conditioning. Then I think maybe it is not so much as trust my heart, as to listen to my heart to know what is going on inside. My heart can be deceived, but at the same time, somehow I can learn to hear and know what to trust. Rambling I know...please excuse me.
I'd appreciate any thoughts...if you are so led.
Hope this isn't deemed too much off topic. If so....apologies.
Okay...here are some thoughts on the deceitful heart, Jer.17:9.
(All scriptures are from the Amplified or KJV (I think).)
Jer. 17:9-10 "The heart is deceitful above all things, and it is exceedingly perverse and corrupt and severely, mortally sick! Who can know it [perceive, understand, be acquainted with his own heart and mind]? I the Lord search the mind, I try the heart, even to give to every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his doings."
another translation is: "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can undersatnd it?"
In Strong's the word deceitful is not the typical word used for deceitful (deception, dishonesty, treachary). Deceitful from Jer. 17 :9 is translated crooked and polluted other places and is defined: "deceitful; rough, bumpy; footprint".
These two places are the two other usages of "deceitful" from Jer. 17:9.
Hos. 6:8: "Gilead is a city of evildoers: it is tracked with bloody [footprints]"
Is. 40:4: "...the crooked and uneven shall be made straight and level, and the rough places a plain."
"Beyond cure" is used when David's child by Bathsheba was sick and died. (II Sam, 12:15)
If the heart is deceitful how is it that that deceitful heart believes unto righteousness? (Rom 10:10)
If it is beyond cure, what is the key to our wholeness? (Prov. 17:22: "a merry heart worketh an excellent cure", Ps. 51:10: "Create in my a clean heart oh God, and renew a right, persevering, and steadfast spirit within me.")
Now for the really "odd" thoughts about this. PLEASE these are simply thoughts. And I am going to simply copy them from a journal entry.
"The Word doesn't say believe in thy mind. It says believe in thy heart. What is the difference between mind and soul and heart? I think of layers. The heart is like the innermost point, the core of the layers. The soul of the flesh is in the blood. The blood carries all that cellular information..and the blood goes through the heart. What is the connection between the physical heart, the blood, the brain, the mind, the thoughts? I wonder if that connection is beyond our comprehension...like quarks and strings....like the vastness of the universe. The more we learn about how cells work the more we see a universe within that cell.
Maybe the word "deceitful" in Jer. 17:9 alludes more to "complexity, depth". The heart is more complex above all else...the universe, the cellular make up of living things, etc.
Another thought: Blood is rejuvenated in the heart. The blood of Jesus Christ washes us clean...he had pure blood. The natural heart is beyond cure, but the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses that heart..creates a new heart."
Okay..so this may just be a bunch of bs....if so...well that's what it is!!
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CM
that first paragraph sounds like the Lord trying the reigns Bagpipes
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CM
that's vague perhaps
knowing and learning what did and didn't take root
rooting out what we know needs to be
keeping the basics of logic and reason
freedom to think is paramount
rather generic but everyone is different
personally i tossed it all from twi
whatever was good i figured would stick with me
after tossing it i had to face what was left in my head
to see it's source and it's reasoning
took it apart and dissembled it
and looked at it from outside of it
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T-Bone
In my continuing effort to analyze the life out of something [LOL
] – I've been doing some thinking [oiiii – again with the thinking - LOL 
] about how we change our minds and the role of emotions…I dusted off my Christian Counseling books and reviewed some things on emotions. I thought I'd share them here as a springboard for discussion.
The following is from Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology & Counseling, Second Edition, Edited by David G. Benner & Peter C Hill, co. 1999, Baker Books, pages 392 through 396 [boldfaced is my emphasis]:
Emotion. The word is derived from the Latin emovare, meaning to move. Affect, passion, and mood are other words that describe some aspect of the same phenomenon. In common usage emotion refers primarily to perceived feelings, while affect includes the drives that are presumed to generate both conscious and unconscious feelings. Passion is intense emotion, and mood is emotion of long duration…W. James in The Principles of Psychology [1890] was correct when he stated that emotions are reflexes. They arise as a result of stimuli that have symbolic meaning to the individual…The stimuli that arise as a result of the behavior of other people have both cognitive and emotional qualities…
…Human beings have always desired rationality; however, they generally do not behave rationally but are driven by emotions. Ideas are of no value until emotions are attached to them, since the emotion provides the force for action. It is imperative, then that as one accumulates a body of knowledge, appropriate emotions be cathected [invested with mental or emotional energy] to ideas in order that they may have value. Values are ideas with cathected emotions that make a favorable difference in life…Thinking and feeling are inextricably mixed. Thus it is not surprising that all mental disorder is characterized by disturbances in both…The personality disorders represent dysfunctional exaggerations of normal personality attributes. Only when personality traits are inflexible and maladaptive and cause either significant impairment in social or occupational functioning or subjective distress do they constitute personality disorder…
…In contrast to the Stoics, who viewed emotion as irrational, and the Epicureans, who acquiesced to the inevitability of emotion, Jesus realistically faced the role of emotion in human life and provided guidelines to control negative and facilitate positive emotion…The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life. It was noted earlier that emotion does not exist by itself but is always attached to ideas…
From Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney J. Hunter, co. 1990 Abingdon Press, pages 351 and 352:
Emotion. At the level of conscious experience, a state of feeling that has motivational and cue-producing properties that organize and guide cognition and action…There is substantial empirical support for the assumption that each of the emotions has adaptive, motivational functions. For example, interest motivates learning, exploration, and creative endeavors. Joy facilitates social interaction and alleviates stress. Anger mobilizes energy for action against frustrating barriers which may include insults to personal integrity and oppression. Shame motivates development of skills and competencies that strengthen the self and make it less vulnerable to humiliation. Guilt, believed by some to be a fundamental emotion despite its lack of a characteristic expression, fosters reparation and the development of a sense of personal responsibility…
And finally [yes finally I mean it!]from The Christian Counselor's Manual by Jay E. Adams, co. 1973, Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, Chapter 13 The Language of Emotion and Action, pages 112 through 116:
…The terms attitude, feeling, and behavior must be distinguished. They are easily confused because at points they converge or overlap and because they are all integrally related…The word feeling refers to the perception of a bodily state as pleasant or unpleasant…It is true that feelings may differ in intensity or kind, but fundamentally there are two categories into which all may be classified: good or bad. Visceral, muscular, galvanic, or other emotional responses of the body are responses to judgments made about the environment and oneself. These judgments trigger body chemistry to orient the body in a particular direction to meet a specific situation…An attitude is that combination of presuppositions, beliefs, convictions, and opinions that make up one's habitual stance at any given time toward a subject, person, or act. It is a mindset that strongly influences behavior. In counseling, attitudes may be attacked and changed more directly than feelings, which, in most instances can be altered only indirectly through change of attitude and action [behavior]…In its narrower sense, behavior must be distinguished from a larger global usage that is employed by many behaviorists. The term behavior is best used to describe those activities of a whole person [not a gland] that may be judged by the law of God. Behavior is responsible conduct…
I'm Thelonious Bone, welcome to Café Talk – now discuss amongst yourselves…[and you thought there'd be a pop quiz afterwards].
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doojable
Do I get a "Cuppa cawfee?"
T-bone Ya got me thinking - dangerous I know.
I need some time to process - I'll get back to you on this or another thread.
dooj
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I Love Bagpipes
Hmmmm...not quite sure what your trying to tell me CM. "Trying the reigns".... But perhaps your next post (after the one quoted)...is what you are trying to tell me. You stated "whatever was good I figure it would stick with me." That is a good one for me to chew on. :)
Tbone....
I enjoyed the excerpts. I did a tiny etymology work on the word "emotion" some time ago....all I recall now is that it meant "movement out." Thanks for the reminder.
"The Bible has many instructions that help persons to cognitively structure their emotional life." That is put so well. I have a journaling exercise that helped change my emotional responses through cognitive work. But I did not necessarily use scripture...because many scriptures (at the time I was working diligently to change by self talk) brought up undesirable feelings and bodily responses. Maybe I will post the exercise at some point.
When I read these excerpts I thought of a change I had to make in my self talk. I have suffered with bipolar disorder and thus very intense emotional states. In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity. So..I changed the wording in my head to "regulate my emotions"; that I could do. My psychologist pointed out that I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour. That too helped, because I did not act out my moods.
Now I have grown more. The bipolar is not an issue. And I have learned I actually can control some of my emotions....but other times I can't. And that is okay. I can listen. I can monitor. I can adjust. And scripture has been a MAJOR player in that.
Can we have time to study before the pop quiz??
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T-Bone
I Love Bagpipes posted 4/16/2006 1:47 PM:
"…In TWI, when I would hear people talk about "controlling your emotions" I would get VERY uptight, due to my emotional intensity…I may not be able to "control" my emotions, but I do control my behaviour…"
That's a great post, Bagpipes – and on that note let me share some more relevant points from
Competent to Counsel by Jay E. Adams, co. 1970, Baker Book House, pages 93 to 97 on Feelings and Behavior [boldfaced is my emphasis]:
…One very pertinent passage is found in Genesis 4: 3-7. When God rejected Cain's offering [Abel in contrast to Cain brought the firstlings and fat, i.e., the best], Cain became angry and upset, "and his face fell" [vs. 5]. God then rhetorically asked Cain, "Why are you depressed?" and pointed the way toward overcoming it: "If you do right, will it [your face] not be lifted up?" Here, God sets forth the important principle that behavior determines feelings…People feel bad because of bad behavior; feelings flow from actions. This relationship between feelings and behavior is set forth clearly in Scripture. For example, Peter often pointed out that good living produces good feelings. In his first letter [3: 10], he quoted Psalm 34: 12, 13:
Let him who means to love life, and see good days, refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips from speaking guile; and let him turn away from evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and pursue it.
So to have good days, one must do good deeds…Peter speaks of the value of maintaining a good conscience,
…so that in the thing which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame .
A good conscience, according to Peter, depends upon good behavior…Conscience, which is man's ability to evaluate his own actions, activates unpleasant visceral and other bodily warning devices when he sins…These responses serve to alert him to the need for correction of the wrong behavior which the conscience would not tolerate. Bad feelings are the red light on the dashboard flashing out at us…Visceral discomfort is a God-structured means of telling human beings that they have violated their standards…
What must one do to set his conscience at rest? The same thing he does to extinguish the red light on the dashboard. He doesn't take a hammer and smash the red light. Instead, he gets out and lifts the hood to see what is wrong. His problem is not with the light on the dashboard…The only satisfactory way to deal with conscience is to set it to rest by lifting the hood on the faulty behavior that activated the warning device…
One physician recently wrote:
Equally important is the belief that the patient can do something about his behavior and not merely talk about it. We've made life hard for ourselves and our patients by postulating that only a change in attitude or motivation will change behavior, overlooking the alternate possibility that changed behavior can change attitudes. [Marianne Eckardt, "Roundtable: Female Orgasm," Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality (April 1968), Vol. 2, No. 1, p. 46]
She concluded: "Our psychology of introspection has too often neglected the psychology of doing."
Something might be said about the human nervous system with respect to behavior and feeling in counseling. There are basically two sides to this system. One side is emotional and involuntary. The other side, associated with problem solving and voluntary action has to do with behavior…Emotional states flow secondarily from the behavior or the voluntary system…There is a close relationship or a connection between the two so that they can't really be divided as precisely as one might on paper. While there is no direct voluntary access to the emotions, the emotions can be reached indirectly through the voluntary system, because extensive fiber overlapping in the cortex allow unified correlation of the two systems. Thus actions affect emotions…
And below some emotions captured by our Video-Emotion Corder:
And this one below of T-Bone after reading so much:
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Belle
T-bone, I really want to read your stuff and, when I can read it without getting a headache, I do.... Is there any way you can type with the "normal" stuff that's provided on the board? :(
That font and size just makes it hard on these old eyes....
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T-Bone
Ok - Belle, see if my modified edit is any better.
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allan w.
A guy I hung out with for years in twi realised one day while driving around that unbelievers seemed a lot happier than him. That helped change his mind very quickly !!
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T-Bone
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Belle
MUCH - MUCH - MUCH BETTER, T-BONE!!!
Thank you!!! :)
Very poignant and true. I think this is part of why TWIts are so depressed, sad, conflicted.... Out of one side of their mouth they say to do good unto all men, but out of the other side they say that we don't contribute to designer causes or help folks because Jesus said, "the poor will always be with you".
TWIts don't do good - not even within their own group. Many want to do good - I did - my ex wouldn't let me waste OUR resources on egg-sucking unbelievers. Other TWIts consider their doctrine as an excuse to NOT do good, and those are the ones quoting that Jesus quote all the time.
I think that's part of why folks feel so much relief when they do finally make that scary first step to leave TWI. I know for me, it was such a joy that almost every day I would go through the "change & receipts" toll booth just so I could pay for a few of the cars behind me. I have the SunPass that allows me to zoom through with my little electronic bank account, but I wanted so bad to do something nice for folks because I felt so good myself.
That, in turn, made me feel that much better - one I was putting a smile on someone's face anonymously and two - I was doing something I had been forbidden to do for nearly ten years.
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Bramble
Right after leaving TWI we did two things. We took out a car loan(gasp!) for a really nice vehicle, one that wouldn't require weekend fixing to keep running for a long long time.
We had been taking turns going to the school parent meetings, because they were on a HF night. Now that we were out, we could go together!
My husband just laughed as we left for that first meeting together, and said he didn't even feel guilty.
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T-Bone
Something I've been thinking about in regards to my initial post on this thread: How does this stuff on changing your mind relate to me dealing with other people...A lot of that How to Win Friends and Influence People stuff just turns me off - I think it's manipulative. I never was good at any sales job. But being a Christian I think there's a genuine need to find a way to get people to consider Christ...So what I'm thinking is that [in light of my gatekeeper in charge of Gardner's 7 mind-changing factors analogy] - I shouldn't try to sell someone on my idea. The best that I can do is sell them on the idea of investigating the merits of my idea. That puts them in control of the whole decision-making process - which in my opinion - is the way it should be.
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Belle
Okay, I finally finished reading "most" of this thread....I wish I had jumped in earlier, but sometimes things just seem to be way over my head - or I don't have the mental energy to contribute.
Candace Pert - "Molecules of Emotion" --- AWESOME!!!! Bagpipes, that was THE FIRST book I read after starting therapy. My therapist loaned it to me and it made sooooo much sense to me. It really communicated.
I have also read stuff on the history of beliefs, religion, Christianity and cultures and such....
I like getting away from the "Bible based" discussions because I like to consider sources outside of the Bible. It's not the end all and be all that TWI lead us to believe, imo. I need to consider, evaluate, reason, assess things without the black & white "scripture and verse" that we were confined to in TWI.
I LOVED "What the Bleep Do We Know?" - It's like spirituality meets metaphysics meets quantum physics and Candace Pert is one of the professionals in it. :)
Bagpipes, I'm excited to look at the sites you've mentioned - including the heartmath.com ;) You've really done a lot of reading and research on this....thank you! It's helping us to weed through stuff, too.
TBone, something else you may be interested in reading is "Why People Believe Weird Things" - it's by the founder of skeptic.com. It's more about logical thinking - reasoning - and also blind acceptance.
One of the most puzzling things for me regarding changing your mind is the teaching on the Holocaust and how it didn't happen and was grossly exaggerated.... I had all the evidence in the world shown to me growing up - including the privilege of sitting with several survivors one on one - Corrie Ten Boom being one of them. Pictures, stories, tattoos, tears.....tales from the soldiers who were there and saw it with their own eyes!!!! But all it took was some comments from leadership in TWI and "The Myth of the Six Million" to make me change my mind. :( I'm ashamed and embarrassed - but this topic is covered in the "Weird Things" book and that's why I have it. It think the resonance part of your first posts covers that pretty succinctly, though.
I don't want to get too long-winded. Great thread! Thank you very much!!!!
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Amazingrace
T-Bone
I'm kind of reminded of the saying "People won't care about how much you know until they know how much you care."
I used to let my emotions rule me. God's Word changed that for me.... changed it so much that now, some people think there is something wrong with me. They see me as someone who supresses emotion. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Being a spiritual person has allowed me to be in control of my emotions and has enabled me to deal with extremely stressful situations with a level head about me. Before I became spiritual, this was not always the case. But at present, with all situations in my life that involve emotions, I let the fruits of the spirt rule. I don't call it "renewing my mind". I dislike any wording from twi days. I just remind myself that I need to have patience, meekness.... and then, like a miracle, calmness rules.
When calm, thoughts flow and stress takes a hike.
I have lots of friends but I have some enemies also. I don't much care about my enemies. They are truly evil people and don't deserve space in my brain except I do ask God to change their heart
. I love my friends. They make me feel appreciated for who I am. They make it known that they would like to have the patience I have. This tells me I have sparked an interest in them regarding the merits of my methodolgy (is that a word?). It gives me an opportunity to let them know what I know, and an opportunity to be a living example for the God I serve.
On spiritual matters that I do not understand (and there are many), I've only changed my mind to know that it's ok not to have all the answers. I freely admit to being a former brainwashed believe in twi, however, my experience was mostly signs, miracles and wonders. (I left when LCM became pres). I don't have to feel guilt about things I don't undersand. I serve a loving God who will give me the time I need to figure things out.
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Amazingrace
Belle,
Thanks for the references.
Please keep in mind that we were all blinded at one time. It's impossible to see clearly when blinded.
I don't know about the "Six-Million" stuff (can imagine though), but, hey, don't be embarassed now. You're in the light.
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I Love Bagpipes
So well stated tbone!!
Moi being so fresh out of TWI...this speaks volumes. I so enjoy meeting people and enjoy conversation. It's stimulating..the exchange of ideas and possibilities. To be able to FEEL free to express (and discover) my OWN ideas is something I'm growing into. GSC is a forum for me to grow in that discovery/expression.
I avoided How To Win Friends And Influence People for two decades. I finally read it about 8 or so years ago. Read it a couple times actually. My motivation? I wanted to become my own best friend. And actually I loved the book...great bio sketches...one thing I enjoy about Carnegie....all those real life stories.
YW! And thank you dear Belle...for being here when I need/ed you!
Another big freedom factor upon leaving TWI!! "It's okay to not have all the answers.."
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I Love Bagpipes
Incident (I hope it doesn't freak you out and send you screaming into the night... :blink: There is a purpose behind this madness I share. ;) I appreciate any of you taking time to read this. :) ):
It was December, 1995(?). I had suffered 2 bouts of pneumonia since the end of September. The asthma was full blown...nothing was working. The attacks would assault randomly, sometimes 4 times per day.
It was midnight. I sat naked on the side of my bed soaked in sweat and chills. My chest felt as if an elephant sat upon it; my lungs were filled with fluid. The epinephrine wasn't working; the alubterol in the nebulizer wasn't working; the steroids hadn't worked; the antibiotics hadn't worked; the other drugs and the foods and homeopathy and vitamins were not working. I could hardly think....the only thoughts were of death...a deep longing to die: "Why GOD??? Why can't I just stop breathing!!!!!!! Why does my body hang on????? Why doesn't my body respond???!!! Am I that detestable???!!!" I felt such deep self hatred and violation. I felt so very trapped.
At midnight I called my current medical pratitioner; she was on vacation in Nevada. She answered the phone. I felt some relief; maybe God had not totally deserted me. She gently spoke with me. I refused to go AGAIN to the hospital for the same round of treatments that were not working. On the phone line she sat with me....quietly listening to my gasps for breath life.
Then she said, "Carol....quit fighting it. Can you quit fighting it?"
I thought, "But then I am giving in....that's not right. How can I give in?"
She continued, "Carol...can you embrace the attack? I know that sounds strange...but just try to embrace it. I will be right here if you need me. I am going to pray after we hang up and send as much love your way as I can.
Embrace it...don't fight it love."
We hung up...and I began to "embrace" (the best I knew how) the assault upon my body. I closed my eyes and in my mind and heart fell in with the heaves and violence taking place in my body. I felt almost as if I were dreaming.
I then had a "vision", if you will.
I was cradling an infant sized "blob" of black viscous goo. I felt I should let it go, but I had affection for it. I felt it was part of my identity. So I held it debating what to do with it. I decided I couldn't kill it. I placed it in a glass aquarium and watched it ooze around.
Then suddenly it wildly attacked the side of the glass. But it couldn't get out. It was like it had suction cups all over it and was violently trying to escape. I got out a pistol and shot it. It lay lifeless on the bottom of the aquarium with the shattered glass around it. I felt sadness...and at the same time a sense of relief.
End of "vision."
The attack changed at that moment becoming less violent, but didn't end for another hour. I no longer had the deep fear. Was the "blob" a devil spirit? Was it part of the self hatred? I don't know. I continued to suffer with asthma for three more years, but I know that once I embraced it...my "relationship" with this dis-ease that inhabited my body and controlled so much of my life changed. It was no longer a terrorist, though neither was it a friend. My last attack (as stated in an earlier post) was January, 1999.
End of incident.
So what does this have to do with "How do you change your mind"?
It has taken me years, (and I am still on this journey), but I learned/am learning to embrace the dark emotions in my soul....to not view my "dark side" as an enemy. I still cannot put into words exactly what it is that I have learned/am learning in this area. And to some it may sound VERY strange...and even "devilish" or unrenewed. But it has opened my heart and life to much healing...physically and emotionally. The aforementioned incident left a deep impact upon my soul.
So...all that to share the following excerpt I read this morning from Cry of the Soul. This excerpt has helped put words to my thoughts/feelings about learning to embrace and not fear the dark emotions with which I (and I assume everyone) grapples.
Excerpt from the chapter "The Goodness of God: From Suffering to Glory":
"We cautioned earlier against assuming we can directly alter our emotions. It has not been our goal to provide a guide for conquering unwanted emotions. Effort to "change" troubling emotions often involves an effort to "master" God through attempts to escape the heartache of the Fall.
The goal of avoiding heartache is both impossible and undesirable. It is impossible because we live in a fallen world and are fundamentally flawed beings--as Genesis 3, one of the foundational passages of the Bible, teaches. Perfection is reserved for heaven; while we live, we will be both the vehicles and the recipients of unrighteous emotions. This is not a warrant to justify our internal ugliness, but it clears the air of any overly optimistic assessment of human ability.
The goal to avoid anguish is undesirable because our dark emotions have a redemptive side (although this fact does not make them any less painful). Though tainted in our expression of them, they nonetheless reflect the character of God. They have the power to vocalize our deepest cry--and when that cry is uttered before God, our hearts are exposed and transformed as we glimpse His heart for us."
This excerpt may sound contradictory to my previous posts...but to me it compliments this journey of discovery keeping it in perspective.
"And that's all I have to say about tha-at," in my best Forrest Gump imitation. At least for now..... :)
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