The biggest change for me was converting to the LDS faith
For a long time after TWI I wouldn't go near a church then I started attending Salvation Army services. I was drawn to the Salvation Army (and still work for them) because of their great outreach in the social service as well as the spiritual arena. Such a change from TWI.
But something was still missing.
So I asked GOD a series of questions about things that I thought I knew, had been told were true, and just plain didn't work for me in a spiritual, scriptural, and life experience sense.
And God began to show me things as I read and prayed.
When I was in Spokane I had the opportunity to take the missionary discussions. I had studied the LDS church on and off since I was sixteen so I said yes to the offer. I asked the missionaries the series of questions that had plagued me and to each question they gave an answer that tallied with what God had been showing me in my private quest.
Questions answered, agreed with what GOD had shown me, I joined and Have been happy ever since
I do not change my mind lightly or easily
I avoid jumping from the frying pan to the fire
When I contemplate a change it is often for months or even years while I examine all the pros or cons, facets etc of a situation.
I am not vocal when contemplating a change, so when change does happen my family and friends often find it "sudden" since I have kept doubts about my previous position to myself while contemplating all the ramifications of a change
I can't speak for everybody, but personally it's the constant wearing away at me that eventually gets me to change me mind. I put things on the back burner of my brain and let them simmer. They're always there, slowly cooking.
After a long-enough period whatever makes the most sense to me usually (hopefully) wins out.
With my "spiritual" beliefs, it was a constant nagging in the back of my head. The tenets of Christianity just didn't make much sense. Why would God want to set things in motion the way he did? What good does sacrificing His Son do? How could somebody else dying make up for things I did wrong? If He loves us so much why doesn't He make it evident? Why is understanding His will soooooooooooo complicated? Eventually, common sense won out and I tossed the silly, childish notions of having an invisible friend.
I don't think epiphanies are as common as just gradual progressions. At least that's how my head works.
Funny (not 'haha' funny...interesting funny) that you post this today. I was going to start a thread in Open called, "Irreconcilable Differences: Why?".
A couple of things in your post jumped out at me:
On pages 14 to 18 Gardner identifies seven factors that he suggests play a crucial role in mind changing: reason, research, resonance, representational re-descriptions, resource & rewards, real world events and resistances.
And:
I think there's two kinds of "mind changing": superficial and substantial.
Phew! A whole lot here packed in a little bit of words!
Just before reading your post, I was praying...had been praying all day...about why I seem to be able to get along with people only 'from a distance'. You've given me a beginning of the answer.
My experience in life is that most people want a quick fix...they'll take care of the important things 'later'...but right NOW they have this 'interruption' that they want fixed NOW.
Why bother to 'fix' something momentarily? Unless it is a dire need emergency...the only thing that can be done for the moment so that the situation can survive long enough to get to the underlying problem...a quick fix is more damaging because it doesn't address the cause of the problem.
A quick fix is like pulling abscessed teeth while ignoring the diabetes that is causing the teeth to rot away.
This makes me crazy!!!!
To me, changing my mind is required to grow. I want to grow every day. Getting me to change my mind is hard work, though--even and especially if it's me trying to change my own mind--because I want substantial, problem-solving growth.
Which is only accomplished, imo, via such things as those 7 factors listed above.
If I am to change my mind, I first and foremost want sound reasoning.
Don't give me your reasoning; don't give me other people's reasoning. Give me reasoning based upon things like research and real world events.
Now if your reasoning and/or other people's reasoning are based upon such things, then tell me so. Expound to me your position. If I don't get it, then use such things as representational re-descriptions.
I'm not sure how Gardner is using resonance, resource and rewards, and resistances in this context.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that it takes a lot of honest--and sometimes creative--communication, hard 'evidence', definitive examples on both sides of the coin, and more conversation for me to change my mind.
This makes most everybody I know crazy!!!!
Often I find myself being 'of the same mind still'...but keeping my mouth shut because it's such a battle to get people to truly communicate with me.
Yes, it's hard to 'get through to me'. I think it should be...for me or anybody. I didn't used to think like this...but what I and others have gone through to get the Way International out of our heads changed my mind.
This is both an fascinating thread and an exceptionally fascinating initial post! I must say Bravo!
I’ve had the privilege of literally hanging out with dozens of the world’s top brain scientists for seven years, and I’ve had a life-long interest in free will and it’s opposite of machine-like behavior being solely determined by nature and nurture. With that background in mind I’d say your introduction to this thread is one of the most stimulating and concise works I’ve seen in many years.
This may well provide a springboard for discussion on the PFAL thread as to what that set of writings has to say on this topic. As time permits I may contribute here some of what went into the few big changes in my life.
I thought for the benefit of CoolWaters and anyone else interested I'd list a shortened definition that Gardner gives of the seven factors he says are crucial in changing our minds. I've quoted from the book but for the sake of brevity didn't include his whole paragraph – but there's enough of his text that I think you'll get what he means. From pages 14 to 18 of Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds, by Howard Gardner, co. 2004, Harvard Business School Press:
1. Reason. Especially among those who deem themselves to be educated, the use of reason figures heavily in matters of belief. A rational approach involves identifying of relevant factors, weighing each in turn, and making an overall assessment. Reason can involve sheer logic, the use of analogies, or the creation of taxonomies…an individual guided by rationality would attempt to identify all of the relevant considerations and weigh them proportionately.
2. Research. Complementing the use of argument is the collection of relevant data. Those with scientific training can proceed in a systematic manner, perhaps even using statistical tests to verify – or cast doubt on – promising trends. But research need not be formal; it need only entail the identification of relevant cases and a judgment about whether they warrant a change of mind…
3. Resonance. Reason and research appeal to the cognitive aspects of the human mind; resonance denotes the affective component. A view, idea, or perspective resonates to the extent that it feels right to the individual, seems to fit the current situation, and convinces the person that further considerations are superfluous. It is possible, of course, that resonance follows on the use of reason and/or research; but it is equally possible that the fit occurs at an unconscious level…Resonance often comes about because one feels a "relation" to a mind-changer, finds that person "reliable," or "respects" that person…I note that rhetoric is a principal vehicle for changing minds. Rhetoric may rely on many components: In most cases, rhetoric works best when it encompasses tight logic, draws on relevant research, and resonates with an audience…
4. Representational Redescriptions. A change of mind becomes convincing to the extent that it lends itself to representation in a number of different forms, with these forms reinforcing one another…when it comes to matters of instruction – be it in an elementary school classroom or a managerial workshop – the potential for expressing the desired lesson in many compatible formats is crucial.
5. Resources and Rewards. …Sometimes, however, mind change is more likely to occur when considerable resources can be drawn on…[or if] Individuals are being rewarded for one course of behavior and thought rather than the other. Ultimately, however, unless the new course of thought is concordant with other criteria – reason, resonance, research, for example – it is unlikely to last beyond the provision of resources.
6. Real World Events. Sometimes, an event occurs in the broader society that affects many individuals, not just those contemplating a mind change. Examples are wars, hurricanes, terrorist attacks, economic depressions – or, on a more positive side, eras of peace and prosperity, the availability of medical treatments that prevent illness or lengthen life, the ascendancy of a benign leader or group or political party…
7. Resistance. The six factors identified so far can aid in an effort to change minds. However, the existence of only facilitating factors is unrealistic…While it is easy and natural to change one's mind during the first years of life, it becomes difficult to alter one's mind as the years pass. The reason, in brief, is that we develop strong views and perspectives that are resistant to change…
Long ago, in my youth that is, I noticed that I was VERY easily swayed. I’d hear one thing and tend to believe it or want to believe it. Then a short time later I’d hear the opposite thing and immediately switch my preferences.
This would bother me, thinking that there was something wrong with me, that I had a gullibility problem. I was greatly relieved when I got into the Word and heard a little bit of teaching on that verse in Roman 10 about “believing comes by hearing.”
Being raised strict Catholic I had always associated believing and faith with something extremely exotic and saintly. But with that verse's explanation I came to realize that the brain is a believing machine, primarily designed for Eden’s best case scenario to take in data (especially repeated data) and automatically believe it. With the coming of sin and deception came the need to develop filters.
I now still feel that automatic urge to believe everything I hear, and then about a fifth of second later, which is the time it takes for impulses to traverse the brain’s cortex or pattern recognition outer layers, I feel the filters installed as an adult kick in.
Change takes honesty and facing the truth as you know it.
Many people can not or will not face these parts of life.
We do not have to you see no one makes us admit to our own self anything.
so we do not change .
Tthe reality of change is other people may not like the change and the RISK is a conditionl called change back in the mental circle.
When one changes everything around him MUST now change.
People are in their comfort zone we are familiar with what we know can or should happen next.
when a person changes that 'ZONE" gets all kinds of messed up.. and then they also cn be Thrown out of the confort zone because of YOUR change..
angry feelings can happen and a force to "change back" before you harm us all.
the risk is you could lose a relationship.
and that is the bottom line on why people have such a difficult time.
people can adjust to your change after the intitial fear of everything being different.
Or they can continue to control . or you could lose a realtionship.
yes we can say if they really love you they will accept your differnt opinion or attitude.. but reality speaks volumes by the number of peopel dealing with anxiety and depression today.
change is a risk , and it could cost you something very important. people who want to control you have a power over your life , you gave it to them.
for whatever reason it /they are important and if you change that will change: it has to and that is to much for some to face.
so we do not change we stay the same out of a fear a very real fear of the consquences of change.
Change changes the very core of your relating to one another.. or thought.
When it happens the dynamics of communication and doing of it CHANGE and suddenly different manners of coping or relating must be formed for the relationship to continue on ..
often the other parties are unwilling to see the need for the change as clearly as you do and will pressure you to make it stop.
Because they also fear losing the YOU they know and love.
most want a zone of comfort to live in with a predictable outcome.
At the same time the personal inner struggle of your own self is having a difficult time with what the change may mean.. some big surprises may happen over one small different ideal!
so in the weakened state you "change back" or float between the two ideals UNTIL you can face what may happen next in the risk of changing.
change is not easy, but for me it is most rewarding I have learned to rely on MY Saviour to pull me through the messes change can bring to yur life to find a greater happiness, peace, and true growth in who I am.
For successful and the least truamatic change to happen in life one MUST HAVE a clear SELF that is defined and ok and willing to grow into what the next choice brings.
many do not have that people tend to live off the coat strings of the relationships they have formed inlife and have found comfort in...others want to control .
change can give the illusion of being able to "hurt" that , but in TRUTH a solid self can only add to the quality of a realtionship. If it is a healthy relatinship built on honesty and trust and love.
The change to Way beliefs happened very quickly. I was a senior in college and had had a tough year--the Big boyfriend breakup, then Replacement boyfriend got a girl pregnant--much drama there! The job market was tight, the only job I could find was teaching kindergarten in Rosebud, Montana or working in the boom town Gillette, Wyoming...very depressing. SO the wows--all guys-- with all their enthusiasm and certainty( and attention) found a willing person. I had no strongly held religious beliefs, it was easy to adopt PFAL.
Years later, the move away from PFAL/TWI doctrine was much slower, taking a number of years...there were no people encouraging me or discouraging me in matters of belief...pretty much me and a book, or internet. But the thing that fueled the second change was the sheer misery of those last years in TWI, wehich was far worse than what I'd experienced that last year in college.
Some interesting thoughts there - CM: " to be able to see yourself from outside yourself to be able to see another's pov" and Pond : "It is about honesty . Change takes honesty and facing the truth as you know it. Many people can not or will not face these parts of life. We do not have to you see no one makes us admit to our own self anything. so we do not change . " I think most of the time we "see" ourselves as we'd like to think we appear to other folks.
here is a nice link on more of Gardner's work that relates to this thread
most of it is kinda heady reading, but i think Gardner has made some of the most valuable contributions to these subjects to date
also, as dry as it might sound, the notion that each of our kinds of intelligence develops in sequential stages makes for valuable psychographic mapping...if one was into such a thing
and what it takes to change our mind depends a lot on where our mind is at any given time of change
the ways in which our beliefs transform (or not) are as numerous and as exotic as life itself
but of course, something being exotic does not automatically put comprehension out of reach
but rather, makes the task of classification a much broader one
sometimes changing our mind might happen when a simple aha moment comes to us while reading a good book,
other times it might be what happens when we lose someone we love in a tragic accident,
other times it might be when a long drawn-out argument in our mind finally whoops our butt
but overall,
it seems as if there exists an evolving scale of effectiveness as to what triggers us to change minds
as mankind naturally develops ever greater leverages in initiating such inward transformation
from survival and suffering being the earliest causes for change,
to when wise men and teachers learned how to very simply speak or write "living words," which had the capacity to change minds instantly...for those who were actually genuinely listening
You wrote a lot, but included within is this phrase: "...what triggers us to change minds..."
The opposite of the notion that this phrase embodies is “free will.”
Free will means free of determining causes or triggers, lacking triggers, operating in spite of triggers.
I am believe that MUCH of human behavior does not stem from free will, but is robotic albeit exceedingly complex, and stems from or is a response to the combination of stimuli and previously learned robotic behavior and stored predilections and even genetic makeup.
What seems to defy description is the notion that SOMETIMES free will is exhibited instead of the trigger-induced behavior and thought dexcribed above. Free will is pretty exotic.
Does anybody have any Bible verses that definitively spell out the notion of free will in this context? They are as hard to find as definitive verses on God's foreknowledge. I can't find any for either topic, both of which are oddly related. I can find verses where these words are used (only very few) but not explained.
Both of these notions, however can be found spelled out in PFAL. If anyone wants to comment on this last line, please join us in the Round 2 thread on PFAL.
(Late Edit Addition):
P.S. - I believe the lack of verses in the ancient scriptures on this modern idea of "free will versus robotic behavior" has been a springboard for some Calvinistic false doctrines.
Likewise, I'm very sure that the lack of verses on foreknowledge has given rise to the erroneous teachings on God lacking absolute and complete foreknowledge by Chris Geer and CES. (such odd bed-fellows!)
P.P.S. – God’s foreknowledge and predetermination and free will are linked here:
Romans 8:28-31:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
The free will is in our choosing to love God.
The foreknowing is God seeing our choice long before it occurred.
The predetermination is the pre-planned and orchestrated blessings God gives to His loved ones.
P.S. - Just in case anyone here doesn't know it, there is another current active thread that is dealing with some of the same issues as this one in the About the Way forum named "Personal experiences not valid..." by penguin.
Thanks for the Gardner link, Sirguessalot – neat stuff! Gardner briefly mentions the multiple intelligences in his Changing Minds book and prefaced his list by saying [on page 30] "How are multiple intelligences relevant to mind changing? On the most basic level, a change of mind involves a change of mental representation. If I change your idea of intelligence, I am altering the images, concepts, and theories by which you were accustomed to thinking of intelligence. Accordingly, the more of an individual's intelligences you can appeal to when making an argument, the more likely you are to change a person's mind…"
Interesting that you used the words "triggers" and "leverages" – Gardner's own words on page 14 are, "I have identified seven factors – sometimes I'll call them levers – that could be at work in these and all cases of a change of mind." I also like your mentioning a few of the numerous ways our minds change, "sometimes changing our mind might happen when a simple aha moment comes to us while reading a good book, other times it might be what happens when we lose someone we love in a tragic accident,
other times it might be when a long drawn-out argument in our mind finally whoops our butt."……….
Mike, perhaps you misunderstood my initial post or the second one where I list Gardner's definitions of the 7 factors. You started out referring to Sirguessalot's post, "sirguessalot,
You wrote a lot, but included within is this phrase: "...what triggers us to change minds..." The opposite of the notion that this phrase embodies is "free will." Free will means free of determining causes or triggers, lacking triggers, operating in spite of triggers. I am believe that MUCH of human behavior does not stem from free will, but is robotic albeit exceedingly complex, and stems from or is a response to the combination of stimuli and previously learned robotic behavior and stored predilections and even genetic makeup. What seems to defy description is the notion that SOMETIMES free will is exhibited instead of the trigger-induced behavior and thought dexcribed above."
What do you mean by "learned robotic behavior?" Do you mean automatic or conditioned behavior? I thought I was clear in starting this thread that it was about how WE change our minds on beliefs, a viewpoint – analyzing the decision-making process involved when WE choose or reject something. I think what we're discussing here [previous to your post] IS the freedom to choose – the power and responsibility of free will, our decision-making ability.
In my silly analogy that draws on Gardner's ideas – I pictured someone named "Will" [as in our free will, even referring to the name choice from the old saying "a man convinced against his WILL is one of the same opinion still."] as a gatekeeper over an investment company. Our free will is the gatekeeper – that controls access into our various thought processes [Gardner's listing of 7 factors]. Only the gatekeeper [free will] can decide to let a thought, idea, viewpoint, information, etc. inside and run it through the 7 research departments [reason, research, resonance, re-description, etc.] to "check it out" – to see whether or not it's worth buying…
And concerning the other statement you wrote, "I believe the lack of verses in the ancient scriptures on this modern idea of "free will versus robotic behavior" has been a springboard for some Calvinistic false doctrines."How can you confuse our topic of how people change their minds with anything Calvinistic? In my opinion I think Gardner's ideas are legit – he merely articulates how our brain makes decisions. In Isaiah 1: 18 God said by way of the prophet " 'Come now, and let us REASON together,' says the Lord…" I see two things in that verse: God appeals to our minds and honors our freedom of will. That's what we've been talking about in this thread – using our minds by our free will choice.
yeah...Gardner has a lot of good stuff to say...not to mention how many other often radically different fields of study and practice have benefitted from plugging his kind of work into theirs
and too, perhaps, consider this, in light of my monochromatic thread...how each line of intelligence evolves/develops/grows through a spectrum of stages...yowza
but too, if one wanted to get away from the "spectrum" idea for whatever reason (smacked around by dwarves with rainbow baseball bats, perhaps), one could still consider each of these lines in terms of pre-conventional, conventional, and post-conventional stages of growth...to use more conventional terminology
i mean, the possibility of a comprehensive psychograph and its corresponding stages and shadows gets pretty interesting real quick...but i also think this is getting into some emergent psycho/spiritual esoterica that very likely comes across as mere hooky-pookism in this venue...or simply too complex to hold, and so rejected...and i dont want to lose more friends than i already have for coming across like a know-it-all smart-a$$...I'd rather write poetry
but i tell ya...i still find it somewhat amazing how much overlooked and amazing stuff has been written in the past century along these lines...not to mention the even more amazing stuff that has already been written in THIS century
You wrote: “What do you mean by ‘learned robotic behavior?’ Do you mean automatic or conditioned behavior?”
Yes.
***
You wrote: “I thought I was clear in starting this thread that it was about how WE change our minds on beliefs, a viewpoint – analyzing the decision-making process involved when WE choose or reject something. I think what we're discussing here [previous to your post] IS the freedom to choose – the power and responsibility of free will, our decision-making ability.”
I am clear on your initial post and the ensuing discussion.
What I was proposing was that it could be that some or many of the incidents where we THINK we are making a free will decision (as I tried to define it) we are not, but are in fact mechanically making a conditioned response that includes the feeling of being in charge.
I other words, I’m proposing (with reservations) that even when we have the feeling that we are in charge and making a decision free of determining factors, that feeling may only be an illusion.
Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.
My best understanding of free will is that there is some behavior which, though mixed in with many incidents of robotic behavior, involves what we love and dwell on over a long period of time. Repetitious behavior indicates what’s in the heart, the deepest part of the mind, and that’s where free will decisions are made involving our loved focus, but most outward behavior is robotic and unconscious in spite of convincing feelings to the contrary.
I may very well look at the material you’ve suggested here someday.
was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.
That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.
When I said "Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them" that was a cue to ask me for the scriptures. There ARE scriptures that indicate man's glory, his brains and his brawn, are a hyped up illusion.
Search the scriptures daily whether these things are so, and be noble like the Bereans in Acts 17.
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templelady
The biggest change for me was converting to the LDS faith
For a long time after TWI I wouldn't go near a church then I started attending Salvation Army services. I was drawn to the Salvation Army (and still work for them) because of their great outreach in the social service as well as the spiritual arena. Such a change from TWI.
But something was still missing.
So I asked GOD a series of questions about things that I thought I knew, had been told were true, and just plain didn't work for me in a spiritual, scriptural, and life experience sense.
And God began to show me things as I read and prayed.
When I was in Spokane I had the opportunity to take the missionary discussions. I had studied the LDS church on and off since I was sixteen so I said yes to the offer. I asked the missionaries the series of questions that had plagued me and to each question they gave an answer that tallied with what God had been showing me in my private quest.
Questions answered, agreed with what GOD had shown me, I joined and Have been happy ever since
I do not change my mind lightly or easily
I avoid jumping from the frying pan to the fire
When I contemplate a change it is often for months or even years while I examine all the pros or cons, facets etc of a situation.
I am not vocal when contemplating a change, so when change does happen my family and friends often find it "sudden" since I have kept doubts about my previous position to myself while contemplating all the ramifications of a change
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George Aar
I can't speak for everybody, but personally it's the constant wearing away at me that eventually gets me to change me mind. I put things on the back burner of my brain and let them simmer. They're always there, slowly cooking.
After a long-enough period whatever makes the most sense to me usually (hopefully) wins out.
With my "spiritual" beliefs, it was a constant nagging in the back of my head. The tenets of Christianity just didn't make much sense. Why would God want to set things in motion the way he did? What good does sacrificing His Son do? How could somebody else dying make up for things I did wrong? If He loves us so much why doesn't He make it evident? Why is understanding His will soooooooooooo complicated? Eventually, common sense won out and I tossed the silly, childish notions of having an invisible friend.
I don't think epiphanies are as common as just gradual progressions. At least that's how my head works.
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Tom Strange
CASH. Lots of it. Non-Sequential serial numbers.
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CoolWaters
Funny (not 'haha' funny...interesting funny) that you post this today. I was going to start a thread in Open called, "Irreconcilable Differences: Why?".
A couple of things in your post jumped out at me:
And:Phew! A whole lot here packed in a little bit of words!
Just before reading your post, I was praying...had been praying all day...about why I seem to be able to get along with people only 'from a distance'. You've given me a beginning of the answer.
My experience in life is that most people want a quick fix...they'll take care of the important things 'later'...but right NOW they have this 'interruption' that they want fixed NOW.
Why bother to 'fix' something momentarily? Unless it is a dire need emergency...the only thing that can be done for the moment so that the situation can survive long enough to get to the underlying problem...a quick fix is more damaging because it doesn't address the cause of the problem.
A quick fix is like pulling abscessed teeth while ignoring the diabetes that is causing the teeth to rot away.
This makes me crazy!!!!
To me, changing my mind is required to grow. I want to grow every day. Getting me to change my mind is hard work, though--even and especially if it's me trying to change my own mind--because I want substantial, problem-solving growth.
Which is only accomplished, imo, via such things as those 7 factors listed above.
If I am to change my mind, I first and foremost want sound reasoning.
Don't give me your reasoning; don't give me other people's reasoning. Give me reasoning based upon things like research and real world events.
Now if your reasoning and/or other people's reasoning are based upon such things, then tell me so. Expound to me your position. If I don't get it, then use such things as representational re-descriptions.
I'm not sure how Gardner is using resonance, resource and rewards, and resistances in this context.
Anyway, what I'm saying is that it takes a lot of honest--and sometimes creative--communication, hard 'evidence', definitive examples on both sides of the coin, and more conversation for me to change my mind.
This makes most everybody I know crazy!!!!
Often I find myself being 'of the same mind still'...but keeping my mouth shut because it's such a battle to get people to truly communicate with me.
Yes, it's hard to 'get through to me'. I think it should be...for me or anybody. I didn't used to think like this...but what I and others have gone through to get the Way International out of our heads changed my mind.
Great topic! Thank you very much!
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Mike
T-Bone,
This is both an fascinating thread and an exceptionally fascinating initial post! I must say Bravo!
I’ve had the privilege of literally hanging out with dozens of the world’s top brain scientists for seven years, and I’ve had a life-long interest in free will and it’s opposite of machine-like behavior being solely determined by nature and nurture. With that background in mind I’d say your introduction to this thread is one of the most stimulating and concise works I’ve seen in many years.
This may well provide a springboard for discussion on the PFAL thread as to what that set of writings has to say on this topic. As time permits I may contribute here some of what went into the few big changes in my life.
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T-Bone
I thought for the benefit of CoolWaters and anyone else interested I'd list a shortened definition that Gardner gives of the seven factors he says are crucial in changing our minds. I've quoted from the book but for the sake of brevity didn't include his whole paragraph – but there's enough of his text that I think you'll get what he means. From pages 14 to 18 of Changing Minds: The Art and Science of Changing Our Own and Other People's Minds, by Howard Gardner, co. 2004, Harvard Business School Press:
1. Reason. Especially among those who deem themselves to be educated, the use of reason figures heavily in matters of belief. A rational approach involves identifying of relevant factors, weighing each in turn, and making an overall assessment. Reason can involve sheer logic, the use of analogies, or the creation of taxonomies…an individual guided by rationality would attempt to identify all of the relevant considerations and weigh them proportionately.
2. Research. Complementing the use of argument is the collection of relevant data. Those with scientific training can proceed in a systematic manner, perhaps even using statistical tests to verify – or cast doubt on – promising trends. But research need not be formal; it need only entail the identification of relevant cases and a judgment about whether they warrant a change of mind…
3. Resonance. Reason and research appeal to the cognitive aspects of the human mind; resonance denotes the affective component. A view, idea, or perspective resonates to the extent that it feels right to the individual, seems to fit the current situation, and convinces the person that further considerations are superfluous. It is possible, of course, that resonance follows on the use of reason and/or research; but it is equally possible that the fit occurs at an unconscious level…Resonance often comes about because one feels a "relation" to a mind-changer, finds that person "reliable," or "respects" that person…I note that rhetoric is a principal vehicle for changing minds. Rhetoric may rely on many components: In most cases, rhetoric works best when it encompasses tight logic, draws on relevant research, and resonates with an audience…
4. Representational Redescriptions. A change of mind becomes convincing to the extent that it lends itself to representation in a number of different forms, with these forms reinforcing one another…when it comes to matters of instruction – be it in an elementary school classroom or a managerial workshop – the potential for expressing the desired lesson in many compatible formats is crucial.
5. Resources and Rewards. …Sometimes, however, mind change is more likely to occur when considerable resources can be drawn on…[or if] Individuals are being rewarded for one course of behavior and thought rather than the other. Ultimately, however, unless the new course of thought is concordant with other criteria – reason, resonance, research, for example – it is unlikely to last beyond the provision of resources.
6. Real World Events. Sometimes, an event occurs in the broader society that affects many individuals, not just those contemplating a mind change. Examples are wars, hurricanes, terrorist attacks, economic depressions – or, on a more positive side, eras of peace and prosperity, the availability of medical treatments that prevent illness or lengthen life, the ascendancy of a benign leader or group or political party…
7. Resistance. The six factors identified so far can aid in an effort to change minds. However, the existence of only facilitating factors is unrealistic…While it is easy and natural to change one's mind during the first years of life, it becomes difficult to alter one's mind as the years pass. The reason, in brief, is that we develop strong views and perspectives that are resistant to change…
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pond
I change to easily
it can cause a problem in life to not be grounded in your beliefs and to 'wander" in your thoughts to the point confussion sets in.
I have changed a great deal
I do not understand people who do not like change.
I am like looking for the rainbow and searching and changing my mind alot
it is easy for me.
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Mike
Pond,
I think your experience is normal.
Long ago, in my youth that is, I noticed that I was VERY easily swayed. I’d hear one thing and tend to believe it or want to believe it. Then a short time later I’d hear the opposite thing and immediately switch my preferences.
This would bother me, thinking that there was something wrong with me, that I had a gullibility problem. I was greatly relieved when I got into the Word and heard a little bit of teaching on that verse in Roman 10 about “believing comes by hearing.”
Being raised strict Catholic I had always associated believing and faith with something extremely exotic and saintly. But with that verse's explanation I came to realize that the brain is a believing machine, primarily designed for Eden’s best case scenario to take in data (especially repeated data) and automatically believe it. With the coming of sin and deception came the need to develop filters.
I now still feel that automatic urge to believe everything I hear, and then about a fifth of second later, which is the time it takes for impulses to traverse the brain’s cortex or pattern recognition outer layers, I feel the filters installed as an adult kick in.
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dmiller
<_< <_<
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Mike
What?
It just so happens that I DO think about other things, ya know. -_-
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CM
hmmm...just a few things i think of...
honesty
honest with yourself
honest with others
logic
common sense
the ability to consider
to be able to see yourself from outside yourself
to be able to see another's pov
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pond
CM
you got it !
It is about honesty .
Change takes honesty and facing the truth as you know it.
Many people can not or will not face these parts of life.
We do not have to you see no one makes us admit to our own self anything.
so we do not change .
Tthe reality of change is other people may not like the change and the RISK is a conditionl called change back in the mental circle.
When one changes everything around him MUST now change.
People are in their comfort zone we are familiar with what we know can or should happen next.
when a person changes that 'ZONE" gets all kinds of messed up.. and then they also cn be Thrown out of the confort zone because of YOUR change..
angry feelings can happen and a force to "change back" before you harm us all.
the risk is you could lose a relationship.
and that is the bottom line on why people have such a difficult time.
people can adjust to your change after the intitial fear of everything being different.
Or they can continue to control . or you could lose a realtionship.
yes we can say if they really love you they will accept your differnt opinion or attitude.. but reality speaks volumes by the number of peopel dealing with anxiety and depression today.
change is a risk , and it could cost you something very important. people who want to control you have a power over your life , you gave it to them.
for whatever reason it /they are important and if you change that will change: it has to and that is to much for some to face.
so we do not change we stay the same out of a fear a very real fear of the consquences of change.
Change changes the very core of your relating to one another.. or thought.
When it happens the dynamics of communication and doing of it CHANGE and suddenly different manners of coping or relating must be formed for the relationship to continue on ..
often the other parties are unwilling to see the need for the change as clearly as you do and will pressure you to make it stop.
Because they also fear losing the YOU they know and love.
most want a zone of comfort to live in with a predictable outcome.
At the same time the personal inner struggle of your own self is having a difficult time with what the change may mean.. some big surprises may happen over one small different ideal!
so in the weakened state you "change back" or float between the two ideals UNTIL you can face what may happen next in the risk of changing.
change is not easy, but for me it is most rewarding I have learned to rely on MY Saviour to pull me through the messes change can bring to yur life to find a greater happiness, peace, and true growth in who I am.
For successful and the least truamatic change to happen in life one MUST HAVE a clear SELF that is defined and ok and willing to grow into what the next choice brings.
many do not have that people tend to live off the coat strings of the relationships they have formed inlife and have found comfort in...others want to control .
change can give the illusion of being able to "hurt" that , but in TRUTH a solid self can only add to the quality of a realtionship. If it is a healthy relatinship built on honesty and trust and love.
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Bramble
The change to Way beliefs happened very quickly. I was a senior in college and had had a tough year--the Big boyfriend breakup, then Replacement boyfriend got a girl pregnant--much drama there! The job market was tight, the only job I could find was teaching kindergarten in Rosebud, Montana or working in the boom town Gillette, Wyoming...very depressing. SO the wows--all guys-- with all their enthusiasm and certainty( and attention) found a willing person. I had no strongly held religious beliefs, it was easy to adopt PFAL.
Years later, the move away from PFAL/TWI doctrine was much slower, taking a number of years...there were no people encouraging me or discouraging me in matters of belief...pretty much me and a book, or internet. But the thing that fueled the second change was the sheer misery of those last years in TWI, wehich was far worse than what I'd experienced that last year in college.
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T-Bone
Some interesting thoughts there - CM: " to be able to see yourself from outside yourself to be able to see another's pov" and Pond : "It is about honesty . Change takes honesty and facing the truth as you know it. Many people can not or will not face these parts of life. We do not have to you see no one makes us admit to our own self anything. so we do not change . " I think most of the time we "see" ourselves as we'd like to think we appear to other folks.
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sirguessalot
here is a nice link on more of Gardner's work that relates to this thread
most of it is kinda heady reading, but i think Gardner has made some of the most valuable contributions to these subjects to date
also, as dry as it might sound, the notion that each of our kinds of intelligence develops in sequential stages makes for valuable psychographic mapping...if one was into such a thing
and what it takes to change our mind depends a lot on where our mind is at any given time of change
the ways in which our beliefs transform (or not) are as numerous and as exotic as life itself
but of course, something being exotic does not automatically put comprehension out of reach
but rather, makes the task of classification a much broader one
sometimes changing our mind might happen when a simple aha moment comes to us while reading a good book,
other times it might be what happens when we lose someone we love in a tragic accident,
other times it might be when a long drawn-out argument in our mind finally whoops our butt
but overall,
it seems as if there exists an evolving scale of effectiveness as to what triggers us to change minds
as mankind naturally develops ever greater leverages in initiating such inward transformation
from survival and suffering being the earliest causes for change,
to when wise men and teachers learned how to very simply speak or write "living words," which had the capacity to change minds instantly...for those who were actually genuinely listening
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Mike
sirguessalot,
You wrote a lot, but included within is this phrase: "...what triggers us to change minds..."
The opposite of the notion that this phrase embodies is “free will.”
Free will means free of determining causes or triggers, lacking triggers, operating in spite of triggers.
I am believe that MUCH of human behavior does not stem from free will, but is robotic albeit exceedingly complex, and stems from or is a response to the combination of stimuli and previously learned robotic behavior and stored predilections and even genetic makeup.
What seems to defy description is the notion that SOMETIMES free will is exhibited instead of the trigger-induced behavior and thought dexcribed above. Free will is pretty exotic.
Does anybody have any Bible verses that definitively spell out the notion of free will in this context? They are as hard to find as definitive verses on God's foreknowledge. I can't find any for either topic, both of which are oddly related. I can find verses where these words are used (only very few) but not explained.
Both of these notions, however can be found spelled out in PFAL. If anyone wants to comment on this last line, please join us in the Round 2 thread on PFAL.
(Late Edit Addition):
P.S. - I believe the lack of verses in the ancient scriptures on this modern idea of "free will versus robotic behavior" has been a springboard for some Calvinistic false doctrines.
Likewise, I'm very sure that the lack of verses on foreknowledge has given rise to the erroneous teachings on God lacking absolute and complete foreknowledge by Chris Geer and CES. (such odd bed-fellows!)
P.P.S. – God’s foreknowledge and predetermination and free will are linked here:
Romans 8:28-31:
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
The free will is in our choosing to love God.
The foreknowing is God seeing our choice long before it occurred.
The predetermination is the pre-planned and orchestrated blessings God gives to His loved ones.
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Mike
P.S. - Just in case anyone here doesn't know it, there is another current active thread that is dealing with some of the same issues as this one in the About the Way forum named "Personal experiences not valid..." by penguin.
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T-Bone
Thanks for the Gardner link, Sirguessalot – neat stuff! Gardner briefly mentions the multiple intelligences in his Changing Minds book and prefaced his list by saying [on page 30] "How are multiple intelligences relevant to mind changing? On the most basic level, a change of mind involves a change of mental representation. If I change your idea of intelligence, I am altering the images, concepts, and theories by which you were accustomed to thinking of intelligence. Accordingly, the more of an individual's intelligences you can appeal to when making an argument, the more likely you are to change a person's mind…"
Interesting that you used the words "triggers" and "leverages" – Gardner's own words on page 14 are, "I have identified seven factors – sometimes I'll call them levers – that could be at work in these and all cases of a change of mind." I also like your mentioning a few of the numerous ways our minds change, "sometimes changing our mind might happen when a simple aha moment comes to us while reading a good book, other times it might be what happens when we lose someone we love in a tragic accident,
other times it might be when a long drawn-out argument in our mind finally whoops our butt."……….
Mike, perhaps you misunderstood my initial post or the second one where I list Gardner's definitions of the 7 factors. You started out referring to Sirguessalot's post, "sirguessalot,
You wrote a lot, but included within is this phrase: "...what triggers us to change minds..." The opposite of the notion that this phrase embodies is "free will." Free will means free of determining causes or triggers, lacking triggers, operating in spite of triggers. I am believe that MUCH of human behavior does not stem from free will, but is robotic albeit exceedingly complex, and stems from or is a response to the combination of stimuli and previously learned robotic behavior and stored predilections and even genetic makeup. What seems to defy description is the notion that SOMETIMES free will is exhibited instead of the trigger-induced behavior and thought dexcribed above."
What do you mean by "learned robotic behavior?" Do you mean automatic or conditioned behavior? I thought I was clear in starting this thread that it was about how WE change our minds on beliefs, a viewpoint – analyzing the decision-making process involved when WE choose or reject something. I think what we're discussing here [previous to your post] IS the freedom to choose – the power and responsibility of free will, our decision-making ability.
In my silly analogy that draws on Gardner's ideas – I pictured someone named "Will" [as in our free will, even referring to the name choice from the old saying "a man convinced against his WILL is one of the same opinion still."] as a gatekeeper over an investment company. Our free will is the gatekeeper – that controls access into our various thought processes [Gardner's listing of 7 factors]. Only the gatekeeper [free will] can decide to let a thought, idea, viewpoint, information, etc. inside and run it through the 7 research departments [reason, research, resonance, re-description, etc.] to "check it out" – to see whether or not it's worth buying…
And concerning the other statement you wrote, "I believe the lack of verses in the ancient scriptures on this modern idea of "free will versus robotic behavior" has been a springboard for some Calvinistic false doctrines." How can you confuse our topic of how people change their minds with anything Calvinistic? In my opinion I think Gardner's ideas are legit – he merely articulates how our brain makes decisions. In Isaiah 1: 18 God said by way of the prophet " 'Come now, and let us REASON together,' says the Lord…" I see two things in that verse: God appeals to our minds and honors our freedom of will. That's what we've been talking about in this thread – using our minds by our free will choice.
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sirguessalot
yeah...Gardner has a lot of good stuff to say...not to mention how many other often radically different fields of study and practice have benefitted from plugging his kind of work into theirs
and too, perhaps, consider this, in light of my monochromatic thread...how each line of intelligence evolves/develops/grows through a spectrum of stages...yowza
but too, if one wanted to get away from the "spectrum" idea for whatever reason (smacked around by dwarves with rainbow baseball bats, perhaps), one could still consider each of these lines in terms of pre-conventional, conventional, and post-conventional stages of growth...to use more conventional terminology
i mean, the possibility of a comprehensive psychograph and its corresponding stages and shadows gets pretty interesting real quick...but i also think this is getting into some emergent psycho/spiritual esoterica that very likely comes across as mere hooky-pookism in this venue...or simply too complex to hold, and so rejected...and i dont want to lose more friends than i already have for coming across like a know-it-all smart-a$$...I'd rather write poetry
but i tell ya...i still find it somewhat amazing how much overlooked and amazing stuff has been written in the past century along these lines...not to mention the even more amazing stuff that has already been written in THIS century
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CM
Hi Sirg!
lol...that's what it is and we are anyways
dicovering it and seeing it is the challenge
and then of course relating and communicating it to others
Big challenge there, but somehow it will evolve into that
as many seem to like the limits they have placed on their own thinking
which is fine for many, but few dare to discover the potential they already have
to choose to live in a limited state of thinking or see the changes
to see the changes that can occur...and will occur
i believe the mind/soul was built to change, grow, evolve
so many want to limit others too with their words
and stop the growth that is trying to stretch
with the foundations of clear thinking and love
there is no limits/ as a child sees/ so can we
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Mike
T-Bone,
You wrote: “What do you mean by ‘learned robotic behavior?’ Do you mean automatic or conditioned behavior?”
Yes.
***
You wrote: “I thought I was clear in starting this thread that it was about how WE change our minds on beliefs, a viewpoint – analyzing the decision-making process involved when WE choose or reject something. I think what we're discussing here [previous to your post] IS the freedom to choose – the power and responsibility of free will, our decision-making ability.”
I am clear on your initial post and the ensuing discussion.
What I was proposing was that it could be that some or many of the incidents where we THINK we are making a free will decision (as I tried to define it) we are not, but are in fact mechanically making a conditioned response that includes the feeling of being in charge.
I other words, I’m proposing (with reservations) that even when we have the feeling that we are in charge and making a decision free of determining factors, that feeling may only be an illusion.
Before I got into the Word I read a lot of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, where the central theme (mixed with a lot of baloney) was that most human consciousness is actually an illusion. They sought real consciousness as a form of enlightenment. Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them. It’s all still the frontier of my understanding. Later in my life, in all my studies with the brain scientists I never got any kind of an understanding of free will, and they too very much supported the idea the consciousness is a hyped up concept in our culture.
My best understanding of free will is that there is some behavior which, though mixed in with many incidents of robotic behavior, involves what we love and dwell on over a long period of time. Repetitious behavior indicates what’s in the heart, the deepest part of the mind, and that’s where free will decisions are made involving our loved focus, but most outward behavior is robotic and unconscious in spite of convincing feelings to the contrary.
I may very well look at the material you’ve suggested here someday.
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year2027
God first
Beloved T-Bone
God loves you my dear friend
How I changed my mind
Ok I go to the Doctor he open my brain up and takes parts out until that old ideal is lost with a few others
I guess that might work
But the truth is I mediate on it many days a pray as I ask God about it over and over again and again
But it begins by words I read or was told by others either one on one or mail, boards, Emails and many others ways
Than I go to God and his son and begin talking about it until I have the answer
Sometimes I like the answer but some times I do not
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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templelady
That one sentance explains a great deal I have been heretofore unable to grasp in your thought processes, thank you for the enlightenment.
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Mike
templelady,
When I said "Some of the ideas I entertained there seemed to fit with the Word and I held on to them" that was a cue to ask me for the scriptures. There ARE scriptures that indicate man's glory, his brains and his brawn, are a hyped up illusion.
Search the scriptures daily whether these things are so, and be noble like the Bereans in Acts 17.
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