I've been wanting to post on here but have more in my head than time to type.
I will preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that my views and thoughts change on a daily, sometimes hourly basis. I'm still trying to figure life out and sort through things and as I learn more, I think more and change more.
I identify all too well with the things Bramble, LG, Oak, Sudo and, especially George have posted.
I was raised Southern Baptist and, like any good Southerner, was there every time the doors were opened and I really liked it. That is, I liked the activities and the friendships and the companionship. I eventually left the church and quit going because I was totally fed up with the hipocracy that I saw.
I then looked into all sorts of things: past lives, numerology, tarot, runes, wicca, hindu, etc. Nothing "clicked" with me and some of it was over my head at the time and I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it...especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I desperately wanted to learn more about.
Then TWI and, well, that would pretty much turn anyone off from God - I mean who wants to worship a God like that and a God who allows the flock to be raped and abused like that? And then I look at those who post on here who follow people around the boards attacking them and contributing nothing to conversations but insults, slander and viciousness. Definitely not the God (or church) I want to have anything to do with.
I went back to my original questions: looking at the history of Christianity, of religions and cultures, the formation of different beliefs and really looking at these so-called answered prayers and the inconsistent and illogical reasons why things don't work the way they say they will when confronted about it.
I've come to the conclusion that there is most likely "something" out there greater than us, but I haven't really gotten a clear picture of what that "something" is. Stephen Hawking talks about the Big Bang Theory and religious people get offended before they even consider that he also says we don't know who or what caused the big bang and he doesn't rule out any spiritual entity such as a God being involved.
*Shrug* - I go to church every once in a while, but will never be involved completely and totally again with a church, I feel. I just don't believe in a God who has all these rules and hoops that people have to jump through. I don't believe that God wants us accountable to anyone but Him.
Did you know that every single culture on the planet has a "flood story" in their history? Every one - no matter what the core beliefs....maybe there's something to that, but who the he11 are we to say that Christianity is THE way and that all the others are wrong? I just plain don't know, so I'm not willing, at this point, to commit myself to Christianity - especially since I find so many other cultures and beliefs to be so much more humanitarian and actively living what most Christians just talk about. Their logic is anything BUT logical, imo.
Some say it's the power of prayer... why can't it simply be the power of the human mind? Could be ya know... and there's probably more "proof" for the latter than the former.
Regarding Speaking In Tongues... I tend to agree with George... gibberish, plain and simple... oh I know "it must be the tongue of an angel"... I don't ever recall hearing anyone speaking in tongues a recognizable language, and I don't ever recall hearing someone say that they had except ol veepee in PLAF... did any of you ever hear someone speak in tongues a "recognizable" language?
I was raised "Christian" in Presbyterian and then Methodist churches... my folks were the kind of people that "lived" principles without being religious and without preaching... (I was lucky) ...I look around and I've come to the conclusion that there would be a whole lot less hate, bigotry, war, envy, high-mindedness if there were no religions in the world... JMO...
And I don't personally really yearn to know "where did we all come from", etc... but when I do think about it, the whole alien thing (not the scientology alien thing) makes as much (or more) sense as any of the other stuff...
We believe it because Jesus said it (and he oughta know). IF he lied then myself and many, many, many others were duped BIG TIME !!.......................... IF ...............................he lied.
Also, regarding tongues, if you want to see or hear tongues being spoken in a recognised local language by a complete foreigner who has no idea what he/she is saying, then I suggest you travel and get around more in Christian circles ( going to and from a corn patch in Ohio doesn't really qualify o.k. )...come travel with me through the South Pacific Islands and you'll see/ hear that on a (fairly) regular basis.
Another reason for my foray into agnosticism was when I decided to stop "holding things in abeyance".
Much of what Martindale was teaching in WayAP made no sense to me, so I spent a year analyzing his class, one session at a time, using principles that I learned in PFAL. I found many inconsistancies, and "errors". These errors led to beginning to find inconsistancies and problems with PFAL.
Eventually, after checking out various ex-Way web sites, I saw the diversity of opinions about the bible, all using Wierwille's "keys to research". There was no agreement about "The Word", even from people supposedly schooled in letting "The Word interpret itself".
Outside "The Way" and it's offshoots and refugees, there were hundreds, even thousands of differences of opinion among Christians.
They all thought that they were right.
Add to that Jews, Muslims, Hindus. Take your pick.
Why are agnostics skeptics and doubters? Why isn't everybody?
Also, regarding tongues, if you want to see or hear tongues being spoken in a recognised local language by a complete foreigner who has no idea what he/she is saying, then I suggest you travel and get around more in Christian circles ( going to and from a corn patch in Ohio doesn't really qualify o.k. )...come travel with me through the South Pacific Islands and you'll see/ hear that on a (fairly) regular basis.
So Allan... you too never heard a "recognized" tongue while in TWI? Yet you've heard them on a "fairly regular basis" over there? Do share... please...
I think too many people pray AND decide what the answer should be, Myself at the head of that list.
If I want to borrow your car, and I knock on the door with the attitude "you have to let me have your car, because I'm asking and you said you'd always help me" I am going to really be upset with you, if your answer is no.
Same with prayer, If I pray for my father to live with the attitude "you have to make him live because you said you would always help me" I am going to be really disillusioned when God says NO.
But how the question/prayer is answered is up to the respondent. Because our freedom of choice means we know what we want, but the respondent has a whole set of other facts that determine what "his" answer will be when he exercises his freedom of choice.
Tom...I never said I never heard known languages foreign to the speaker whilst in twi, in fact I did a couple of times.
Once was when a fellow in-res by the name of Rao*l Tov*r did some tongues with int. The tongues were in 'Cook Island' maori (my wife is from there) and she whispered in my ear the translation at the same time Rao*l did !!
I think too many people pray AND decide what the answer should be, Myself at the head of that list.
Yet, many people use the incidence of prayers that elicited the answer that they predecided on as an indication that prayer "works".
We believe it because Jesus said it (and he oughta know). IF he lied then myself and many, many, many others were duped BIG TIME !!.......................... IF ...............................he lied.
This is what's known as a false dilemma. Two choices are presented: Jesus told the truth, or Jesus lied.
What about:
Jesus never existed
Jesus existed, but was not the man presented in the bible
Jesus was the son of God (or God), but was seriously misquoted
Which, is why I think I'm probably agnostic....leastways, I am today.
The thing with prayer is, which I believe Oakspear already said, that when prayer are "answered" - it's from God. When prayers aren't answered there's a whole host of excuses and reasons why the prayers weren't answered and not one of them is clear and simple. It's my fault. It was the wrong prayer. I prayed wrong. I was "out of alignment & harmony". I haven't forgiven so and so......
So much of what's taught today is "take it on faith, brutha" and I just ain't that keen on that being enough proof for me that what's being taught is correct.
I believe in a God, partly because I"m afraid NOT to. But I look at the world, the universe, earth, our own bodies and think there MUST be something greater, some reason, some something..... but I seriously doubt that it's the God that's taught in churches today - regardless of the religion.
So Allan... you too never heard a "recognized" tongue while in TWI? Yet you've heard them on a "fairly regular basis" over there? Do share... please...
Allan... right after the first elipsis is a QUESTION (denoted by the squiggly thing for punctuation at the end...)
That's the first I've heard (in my admittedly sheltered life) of someone hearing a recognized language other than veepee's claim... care to share on the others?
Chas, for me it was a slow ride. I loved PFAL and thought it was the greatest thing on the planet. Wow, a real God and a real way of knowing Him. How cool is that? After a while though I noticed things weren't quite living up to expectations. Prayers weren't being answered, tongues with interpretation wasn't very inspiring, other manifestations were in short supply, etc., etc. Of course, I viewed this as my fault. If only my believing was bigger!
I ended up walking from the Way because of the arrogance and manipulation, but I still tried to keep in touch with the 'things of God.' This was through the offshoots mostly and a stint as an elder in the PCUSA. The beliefs differed a bit, okay, dramatically, but the same ole lack of power persisted.
So, thinking there was still hope, I signed up for a bible study class through Atlanta Bible College (Anthony Buzzard's school). While working my way through the Pentateuch, my mind started wondering about some of the things I was reading. I could accept the fact that Abraham was a liar and Jacob was a bit of a seedy character. Okay, so Moses was a murderer and an awful lot of Egyptians, mostly innocent, were tormented with plagues and later killed by the angel of death. Maybe God had reasons I can't see for all the ritualistic detail described in the other books of the law. Perhaps there's something useful is spilling buckets of blood and eviscerating animals, burning their innards on makeshift altars. Maybe I'll understand in time.
Then Joshua describes the Israelites beginning to enter the promised land and a few things begin to really stand out. Of 600,000 military-aged men coming out of Egypt, 2 actually got to see the promised land. Apparently, even directly witnessing the power and continued presence of God was not enough to convince His created beings that they should listen to and obey Him. Not even Moses, the man of God who led them there, got to go in. Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites began the systematic butchering of the inhabitants. Men, women, children and sometimes sheep, goats and any other living thing that was found. Okay, maybe I'll understand in time, but now I'm starting to get a little stressed. If Moses didn't get to see the promised land after all he did for God, I'm thinking my chances of entering the kingdom are mighty slim at best.
The book of Judges contains such characters as Gideon, Jephthah and Samson. These all committed gross sins despite being called of God. Hmmm. Very hard to understand. They lead Israel yet easily fell prey to the sickest of temptations. Then comes the most atrocious story of all, the story of the Levite and his concubine. If that story doesn't cause one's stomach to roll, I don't know what would.
By the time I reached Samuel, Kings and Chronicles, I was flabbergasted. I also began seeing contradictions, both literal and figurative. I already mentioned children being put to death for the sins of their fathers. Achan falls into this category as do some of the children of the kings. Beyond this, how many children did Jesse have, seven or eight? Did Asa tear down the high places or didn't he? Was man created before or after plants and herbs? Did Saul know David before or after his encounter with Goliath? I should note here that after further investigation it appears I am not alone in my concerns about these records. Scholars can't reconcile them either. Google bible contradictions and you'll be overwhelmed.
Does this mean I don't believe the Bible contains spiritual truth? Probably not. But it does put me in the position of having to decide what is truth and what isn't. Not good, you might say. But I'd argue you do the same thing. Many well-meaning and studious Christians have come to bad conclusions about God. In fact, outside the group(s) a 'believer' hangs around with, wouldn't the 'believer' say they ALL have? Despite assertions that the careful and diligent study of Scripture will lead anyone who is wholeheartedly seeking God to the truth, it doesn't appear to happen that way. Several thousand denominations attest to this. Is holy spirit really leading people to all truth? How does that work?
Why is there a Satan? Have you considered that? We have a God who seems to be quick to execute judgment on humanity for the smallest of infractions yet allows a lying, murderous, treacherous, rebellious and invisible spirit being of tremendous power to not only live but to wreak havoc on the lives of God's children. By the time its done, Satan will have led billions--probably TRILLIONS!--into the second death at the resurrection. Not to mention the misery he will cause during life in this present age.
Well, that's enough rambling for now. I can find no way to reconcile what I've discovered over the past 20 or so years. Given this, I find it much easier to say 'I don't know' than try to explain the activities of a transcendant God.
I believe in a God, partly because I'm afraid NOT to.
That is the one big reason for many, many people, Belle. And frankly, its a reason that many religious leaders use to the max to keep people in line. Much like VPW and LCM.
Now how in the dickens that kind of fear driven motivation can be regarded as 'godly' is beyond me. Thankfully, its a motivation that no longer has any control over yours truly. ... Perhaps there are others here that can take a good long look at that kind of motivation as well.
I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in the mix here - it's just my opinion - or theory on why some people give up on Christianity. It may be just my impression of a lot of Christianity in America[but that's the only place I've been] - but it seems like there's a lot that is self-centeredin it. And what I mean by that is - instead of the emphasis being on serving God - it's turned around to "what can God do for ME?" I think about the "health and wealth" ministries, I recall an old PFAL handout "you can have whatever you want." These ministers wind up being salesman promoting a Genie-in-a-Bottle...I don't blame people getting frustrated when God doesn't come through for them - they've rubbed the Lamp but God didn't grant them their wish...I'm not an expert on other religions - [or even on Christianity for that matter] - but am I wrong or does it seem like other major religions are more focused on their God, or concern for spiritual things or how they are to transform/become something - - compared to this self-centered type of Christianity...
I would guess there's an element of truth to what you're saying. TWI certainly promoted the health-and-wealth gospel: "...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." And I would have to admit I have fallen into that line of thinking on numerous occasions.
But I think the agnostic question goes well beyond that. At one point fairly early on I started feeling sleazy about asking God for personal goodies, and stopped praying for things like that altogether. No matter. I felt better about it but there was no discernable change in, well, anything.
I think it was George Aar who noted in another thread that the idea of all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing God just doesn't line up with the facts of everyday life.
I just can't argue with that. Whether or not the top is off of Daddy's cookie jar.
Yes, JumpinJive- I would have to agree with your take on the agnostic question...I did qualify my statement by saying "why some people give up on Christianity"...I have more respect for George Aarand others that put a lot more thought into analyzing the Christian worldview... I kept trying to clarify myself in the previous post while I was drafting it - couldn't find the right words - so I went with it as is. Sorry, if I offended anyone...It seems like the posts I've read so far are from people who've looked at the big picture [or real picture of the world]...Unlike the "some people" I referred to that looked at the "sales brochure of Christianity."
Most of the atheists/agnostics I've talked to who were once religious haven't left Christianity/religion because of it was less focused on God and more on themselves, but on what they regard as the nonsensical concepts of the belief system that they just couldn't accept, or the strict demands to believe in the doctrine (or else burn in hell), or even whatever psychological/other forms of abuse they endured while they were in the religious stages of their lives.
The things one finds out and the misconceptions that one gets cleared up when one _actually talks to and gets to know_ where the unbelievers are really coming from re: this kind of topic, hmmm? That's what I've come to learn.
JumpinJive, I read something similar to your post about all the murders - in the name of God; all the death - in the name of God; all the legalism imposed on people - in the name of God. How on earth can all these people do, allow and justify all those horrible things - in the name of God? If that's God - then I want nothing to do with it.
It was a serious wake-up call for me. Like the illogic was right there plain as day and I never acknowledged it. Those terrorists and insurgents are doing what they do - in the name of God. The Spanish Inquisition was done - in the name of God. The Crusades were carried out and people were murdered - in the name of God. Anti-abortion folks are bombing abortion clinics - in the name of God. And they all justify other horrendous, evil acts as well.
There's just too much illogic and unexplained "stuff" for me to buy into the whole thing anymore. I don't have the answers, but I don't think typical Christians do either. Difference is, they won't admit it but neither can they explain it.
T-Bone, no need to apologize. This is the place where we get to think out loud, muse thoughts over and share ideas, opinions and ask questions. Thankfully most of the people on here realize that and will not get offended. Some may disagree, but they will maturely and respectfully share why they disagree. I know, at least with me, they've been patient and I've done lots of thinking out loud on here....oodles of it...some downright ridiculous thinking in my part, but I've always been handled, treated and replied to very reasonably and very kindly.
I think you're right about the folks buying into the brochure and then spend their whole lives trying to make their life fit into that brochure when clearly it doesn't live up to all the hype despite all their effort. Some give up, others continue living in la la land and still others close their eyes and ears because it's too painful to admit. I know that doesn't cover the gamut of reasons/opinions, but it's more for illustration than anything.
I always used my parents as an example when arguing with my ex about TWIt doctrine. My parents do the exact opposite of what TWI teaches in so many ways and they are rich (but weren't always), happy, secure, loved, respected and the cream of the crop in our hometown and in the town they've only been in a few years. All because of how much they cheerfully give, do and get involved with people's lives and the community itself. It's so much more than following a recipe, imo. I see the same thing with my grandparents and many of my other relatives. They truly have the "more abundant life" TWI promised but couldn't deliver.
Does God have anything to do with that? I dunno. I know they love Him and they live according to the two laws Jesus laid out - Loving God and Loving your neighbor. Whether or not God has anything to do with that is anybody's guess, imo. But I know how they live and I'm endeavoring to do that....I just don't know where God fits into that picture anymore.
I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in the mix here - it's just my opinion - or theory on why some people give up on Christianity. It may be just my impression of a lot of Christianity in America[but that's the only place I've been] - but it seems like there's a lot that is self-centeredin it. And what I mean by that is - instead of the emphasis being on serving God - it's turned around to "what can God do for ME?" I think about the "health and wealth" ministries, I recall an old PFAL handout "you can have whatever you want." These ministers wind up being salesman promoting a Genie-in-a-Bottle...I don't blame people getting frustrated when God doesn't come through for them - they've rubbed the Lamp but God didn't grant them their wish...I'm not an expert on other religions - [or even on Christianity for that matter] - but am I wrong or does it seem like other major religions are more focused on their God, or concern for spiritual things or how they are to transform/become something - - compared to this self-centered type of Christianity...
Excellent post!
I'm going to take this one step further and say that thing that totally rubs me the wrong way is when certain groups/religions think that *they* are God's chosen people.
When I was in TWI I thought we were God's household - his family. Anyone who didn't believe what we believed - drank the Kool Aid - was not going to get the rewards we had or live the more abundant life we were living. (I was living in a $325/month studio apartment and driving an '89 Ford Festiva with over 150K miles on it - and could barely make ends meet - yeah, THAT'S ABUNDANCE!) It didn't matter if other people were born again or spoke in tongues - they didn't fellowship with TWI, so they weren't as good as we were.
Fast forward a year or so after I left TWI in 2000....
It occurred to me that God was bigger than the box we tried to put him in all the time. He was bigger than the pesky things we were praying for all the time that we thought we needed because we had our needs and wants parallel - or so we thought. We taught in TWI that God was no respector of persons and then in the next breath told people to be sanctified from their earthly family who didn't stand with TWI because they weren't in the Household - what was that all about? What a crock!
There was a time shortly after I left TWI when I was examining what I believed in and really wondered if I still believed in God at all. It was a tough time because I'd already been through so much with leaving my husband, leaving the ministry, and then considering my belief system and if any of it was true.
I came to the conclusion of: I'm glad I took PFAL - it changed my life. I don't care about the plagerism, or other baggage VPW had going on (yes, it effects his integrity, in my eyes) but what I'm saying is that I was able to glean the good from it - it was worth it - for me. It was the time I spend in TWI that was toxic - but that was my choice. Like Belle, I still believe in God. I don't believe he's the Club Manager that TWI and many, too many, other groups have made him out to be. As a result of this, I think that understanding how or why others believe or don't believe is important - which is why I started this thread. I am hopeful that it remains a good sounding board for others to share their beliefs/thoughts/experiences.
Thanks Belle for your kind words...and also think I too do a fine job of contributing some ridiculous ideas...Like everyone else - I read stuff on Grease Spot and think about what someone said -let it simmer...And to be honest - most of the time I thinkmy reason for posting something is to solicit feedback - not to win an argument...This thread has been VERY INTERESTINGfor me...I have my doubts at times - usually about my relationship with God, or don't see any signs of help from God on something big in my life [guess I'm sort of in the self-centered brand of Christianity]...I don't recall having bouts of doubting His existence - but I do wrestle with the problem of evil...From my simplified viewpointI tend to think the Bible doesn't explain a whole lot of WHY about things - but has a whole lot to say about WHATwe should do. If you read Luke 13: 1-5, some people came to Jesus about some Galileans that Pilate had killed. I take it they came to him to ask why that happened [judging by his response - saying "do you suppose they were greater sinners?"] and then Jesus also brings up about a tower falling on some people - but he doesn't answer them with why those bad things happened - he just says "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." ......
No need to apologize T-Bone! I thought it was a great post and a relevant topic. Every group needs a marketing plan and the church certainly isn't the first to tap into our natural desires for health and prosperity. I would agree that this has caused folks to leave certain churches, although not necessarily become agnostics. As Garth noted, "the nonsensical concepts of the belief system" is what probably pushes people over the edge. That's what did it for me, anyway.
Belle: Excellent points. And "I don't have the answers" is about as succinct a description of agnosticism as I can imagine.
One assumes you're awake if you're laying at night, but it requires a partner, and wondering whether there's a dog while laying may inhibit performance.
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Belle
I've been wanting to post on here but have more in my head than time to type.
I will preface what I'm about to say with the disclaimer that my views and thoughts change on a daily, sometimes hourly basis. I'm still trying to figure life out and sort through things and as I learn more, I think more and change more.
I identify all too well with the things Bramble, LG, Oak, Sudo and, especially George have posted.
I was raised Southern Baptist and, like any good Southerner, was there every time the doors were opened and I really liked it. That is, I liked the activities and the friendships and the companionship. I eventually left the church and quit going because I was totally fed up with the hipocracy that I saw.
I then looked into all sorts of things: past lives, numerology, tarot, runes, wicca, hindu, etc. Nothing "clicked" with me and some of it was over my head at the time and I didn't really have anyone to talk to about it...especially the Dead Sea Scrolls, which I desperately wanted to learn more about.
Then TWI and, well, that would pretty much turn anyone off from God - I mean who wants to worship a God like that and a God who allows the flock to be raped and abused like that? And then I look at those who post on here who follow people around the boards attacking them and contributing nothing to conversations but insults, slander and viciousness. Definitely not the God (or church) I want to have anything to do with.
I went back to my original questions: looking at the history of Christianity, of religions and cultures, the formation of different beliefs and really looking at these so-called answered prayers and the inconsistent and illogical reasons why things don't work the way they say they will when confronted about it.
I've come to the conclusion that there is most likely "something" out there greater than us, but I haven't really gotten a clear picture of what that "something" is. Stephen Hawking talks about the Big Bang Theory and religious people get offended before they even consider that he also says we don't know who or what caused the big bang and he doesn't rule out any spiritual entity such as a God being involved.
*Shrug* - I go to church every once in a while, but will never be involved completely and totally again with a church, I feel. I just don't believe in a God who has all these rules and hoops that people have to jump through. I don't believe that God wants us accountable to anyone but Him.
Did you know that every single culture on the planet has a "flood story" in their history? Every one - no matter what the core beliefs....maybe there's something to that, but who the he11 are we to say that Christianity is THE way and that all the others are wrong? I just plain don't know, so I'm not willing, at this point, to commit myself to Christianity - especially since I find so many other cultures and beliefs to be so much more humanitarian and actively living what most Christians just talk about. Their logic is anything BUT logical, imo.
edited to try to shorten
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Tom Strange
Some say it's the power of prayer... why can't it simply be the power of the human mind? Could be ya know... and there's probably more "proof" for the latter than the former.
Regarding Speaking In Tongues... I tend to agree with George... gibberish, plain and simple... oh I know "it must be the tongue of an angel"... I don't ever recall hearing anyone speaking in tongues a recognizable language, and I don't ever recall hearing someone say that they had except ol veepee in PLAF... did any of you ever hear someone speak in tongues a "recognizable" language?
I was raised "Christian" in Presbyterian and then Methodist churches... my folks were the kind of people that "lived" principles without being religious and without preaching... (I was lucky) ...I look around and I've come to the conclusion that there would be a whole lot less hate, bigotry, war, envy, high-mindedness if there were no religions in the world... JMO...
And I don't personally really yearn to know "where did we all come from", etc... but when I do think about it, the whole alien thing (not the scientology alien thing) makes as much (or more) sense as any of the other stuff...
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allan w.
We believe it because Jesus said it (and he oughta know). IF he lied then myself and many, many, many others were duped BIG TIME !!.......................... IF ...............................he lied.
Also, regarding tongues, if you want to see or hear tongues being spoken in a recognised local language by a complete foreigner who has no idea what he/she is saying, then I suggest you travel and get around more in Christian circles ( going to and from a corn patch in Ohio doesn't really qualify o.k. )...come travel with me through the South Pacific Islands and you'll see/ hear that on a (fairly) regular basis.
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Oakspear
Another reason for my foray into agnosticism was when I decided to stop "holding things in abeyance".
Much of what Martindale was teaching in WayAP made no sense to me, so I spent a year analyzing his class, one session at a time, using principles that I learned in PFAL. I found many inconsistancies, and "errors". These errors led to beginning to find inconsistancies and problems with PFAL.
Eventually, after checking out various ex-Way web sites, I saw the diversity of opinions about the bible, all using Wierwille's "keys to research". There was no agreement about "The Word", even from people supposedly schooled in letting "The Word interpret itself".
Outside "The Way" and it's offshoots and refugees, there were hundreds, even thousands of differences of opinion among Christians.
They all thought that they were right.
Add to that Jews, Muslims, Hindus. Take your pick.
Why are agnostics skeptics and doubters? Why isn't everybody?
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Tom Strange
So Allan... you too never heard a "recognized" tongue while in TWI? Yet you've heard them on a "fairly regular basis" over there? Do share... please...
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CM
pfft toungues, languages...
if you know nothing about working on cars and hear someone talking about it
would that not be speaking a different language? a toungue of car repair?
same basic idea
so becoming agnostic is easy,
if one is not looking for spiritual words being said
listening for those spiritual words
and it won't be some complicated mass of stupidity displayed on 2 threads in particular
remember the wisdom from above is described in James
and it's simple and logical and this wisdom includes and supersedes the worldly wisdom
this is why many wrestle with the spiritual cause they can't see beyond a book
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templelady
I think too many people pray AND decide what the answer should be, Myself at the head of that list.
If I want to borrow your car, and I knock on the door with the attitude "you have to let me have your car, because I'm asking and you said you'd always help me" I am going to really be upset with you, if your answer is no.
Same with prayer, If I pray for my father to live with the attitude "you have to make him live because you said you would always help me" I am going to be really disillusioned when God says NO.
But how the question/prayer is answered is up to the respondent. Because our freedom of choice means we know what we want, but the respondent has a whole set of other facts that determine what "his" answer will be when he exercises his freedom of choice.
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allan w.
Tom...I never said I never heard known languages foreign to the speaker whilst in twi, in fact I did a couple of times.
Once was when a fellow in-res by the name of Rao*l Tov*r did some tongues with int. The tongues were in 'Cook Island' maori (my wife is from there) and she whispered in my ear the translation at the same time Rao*l did !!
Let me know if you want to hear more ?
BTW, is he still on staff ?
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Oakspear
Yet, many people use the incidence of prayers that elicited the answer that they predecided on as an indication that prayer "works".
This is what's known as a false dilemma. Two choices are presented: Jesus told the truth, or Jesus lied.What about:
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Belle
You just gotta "take it on faith", Oakspear.
Which, is why I think I'm probably agnostic....leastways, I am today.
The thing with prayer is, which I believe Oakspear already said, that when prayer are "answered" - it's from God. When prayers aren't answered there's a whole host of excuses and reasons why the prayers weren't answered and not one of them is clear and simple. It's my fault. It was the wrong prayer. I prayed wrong. I was "out of alignment & harmony". I haven't forgiven so and so......
So much of what's taught today is "take it on faith, brutha" and I just ain't that keen on that being enough proof for me that what's being taught is correct.
I believe in a God, partly because I"m afraid NOT to. But I look at the world, the universe, earth, our own bodies and think there MUST be something greater, some reason, some something..... but I seriously doubt that it's the God that's taught in churches today - regardless of the religion.
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Tom Strange
Allan... right after the first elipsis is a QUESTION (denoted by the squiggly thing for punctuation at the end...)
That's the first I've heard (in my admittedly sheltered life) of someone hearing a recognized language other than veepee's claim... care to share on the others?
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JumpinJive
Chas, for me it was a slow ride. I loved PFAL and thought it was the greatest thing on the planet. Wow, a real God and a real way of knowing Him. How cool is that? After a while though I noticed things weren't quite living up to expectations. Prayers weren't being answered, tongues with interpretation wasn't very inspiring, other manifestations were in short supply, etc., etc. Of course, I viewed this as my fault. If only my believing was bigger!
I ended up walking from the Way because of the arrogance and manipulation, but I still tried to keep in touch with the 'things of God.' This was through the offshoots mostly and a stint as an elder in the PCUSA. The beliefs differed a bit, okay, dramatically, but the same ole lack of power persisted.
So, thinking there was still hope, I signed up for a bible study class through Atlanta Bible College (Anthony Buzzard's school). While working my way through the Pentateuch, my mind started wondering about some of the things I was reading. I could accept the fact that Abraham was a liar and Jacob was a bit of a seedy character. Okay, so Moses was a murderer and an awful lot of Egyptians, mostly innocent, were tormented with plagues and later killed by the angel of death. Maybe God had reasons I can't see for all the ritualistic detail described in the other books of the law. Perhaps there's something useful is spilling buckets of blood and eviscerating animals, burning their innards on makeshift altars. Maybe I'll understand in time.
Then Joshua describes the Israelites beginning to enter the promised land and a few things begin to really stand out. Of 600,000 military-aged men coming out of Egypt, 2 actually got to see the promised land. Apparently, even directly witnessing the power and continued presence of God was not enough to convince His created beings that they should listen to and obey Him. Not even Moses, the man of God who led them there, got to go in. Upon entering the promised land, the Israelites began the systematic butchering of the inhabitants. Men, women, children and sometimes sheep, goats and any other living thing that was found. Okay, maybe I'll understand in time, but now I'm starting to get a little stressed. If Moses didn't get to see the promised land after all he did for God, I'm thinking my chances of entering the kingdom are mighty slim at best.
The book of Judges contains such characters as Gideon, Jephthah and Samson. These all committed gross sins despite being called of God. Hmmm. Very hard to understand. They lead Israel yet easily fell prey to the sickest of temptations. Then comes the most atrocious story of all, the story of the Levite and his concubine. If that story doesn't cause one's stomach to roll, I don't know what would.
By the time I reached Samuel, Kings and Chronicles, I was flabbergasted. I also began seeing contradictions, both literal and figurative. I already mentioned children being put to death for the sins of their fathers. Achan falls into this category as do some of the children of the kings. Beyond this, how many children did Jesse have, seven or eight? Did Asa tear down the high places or didn't he? Was man created before or after plants and herbs? Did Saul know David before or after his encounter with Goliath? I should note here that after further investigation it appears I am not alone in my concerns about these records. Scholars can't reconcile them either. Google bible contradictions and you'll be overwhelmed.
Does this mean I don't believe the Bible contains spiritual truth? Probably not. But it does put me in the position of having to decide what is truth and what isn't. Not good, you might say. But I'd argue you do the same thing. Many well-meaning and studious Christians have come to bad conclusions about God. In fact, outside the group(s) a 'believer' hangs around with, wouldn't the 'believer' say they ALL have? Despite assertions that the careful and diligent study of Scripture will lead anyone who is wholeheartedly seeking God to the truth, it doesn't appear to happen that way. Several thousand denominations attest to this. Is holy spirit really leading people to all truth? How does that work?
Why is there a Satan? Have you considered that? We have a God who seems to be quick to execute judgment on humanity for the smallest of infractions yet allows a lying, murderous, treacherous, rebellious and invisible spirit being of tremendous power to not only live but to wreak havoc on the lives of God's children. By the time its done, Satan will have led billions--probably TRILLIONS!--into the second death at the resurrection. Not to mention the misery he will cause during life in this present age.
Well, that's enough rambling for now. I can find no way to reconcile what I've discovered over the past 20 or so years. Given this, I find it much easier to say 'I don't know' than try to explain the activities of a transcendant God.
-JJ
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GarthP2000
That is the one big reason for many, many people, Belle. And frankly, its a reason that many religious leaders use to the max to keep people in line. Much like VPW and LCM.
Now how in the dickens that kind of fear driven motivation can be regarded as 'godly' is beyond me. Thankfully, its a motivation that no longer has any control over yours truly. ... Perhaps there are others here that can take a good long look at that kind of motivation as well.
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T-Bone
I thought I'd throw my 2 cents in the mix here - it's just my opinion - or theory on why some people give up on Christianity. It may be just my impression of a lot of Christianity in America [but that's the only place I've been] - but it seems like there's a lot that is self-centered in it. And what I mean by that is - instead of the emphasis being on serving God - it's turned around to "what can God do for ME?" I think about the "health and wealth" ministries, I recall an old PFAL handout "you can have whatever you want." These ministers wind up being salesman promoting a Genie-in-a-Bottle...I don't blame people getting frustrated when God doesn't come through for them - they've rubbed the Lamp but God didn't grant them their wish...I'm not an expert on other religions - [or even on Christianity for that matter] - but am I wrong or does it seem like other major religions are more focused on their God, or concern for spiritual things or how they are to transform/become something - - compared to this self-centered type of Christianity...
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JumpinJive
Hey T-Bone-
I would guess there's an element of truth to what you're saying. TWI certainly promoted the health-and-wealth gospel: "...I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." And I would have to admit I have fallen into that line of thinking on numerous occasions.
But I think the agnostic question goes well beyond that. At one point fairly early on I started feeling sleazy about asking God for personal goodies, and stopped praying for things like that altogether. No matter. I felt better about it but there was no discernable change in, well, anything.
I think it was George Aar who noted in another thread that the idea of all-loving, all-powerful and all-knowing God just doesn't line up with the facts of everyday life.
I just can't argue with that. Whether or not the top is off of Daddy's cookie jar.
-JJ
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rhino
If you google "the problem of evil" there is a bunch of stuff on this argument. Basically "if god is all good, why does he allow evil to exist?"
there are many long arguments for both sides.
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T-Bone
Yes, JumpinJive - I would have to agree with your take on the agnostic question...I did qualify my statement by saying "why some people give up on Christianity"...I have more respect for George Aar and others that put a lot more thought into analyzing the Christian worldview... I kept trying to clarify myself in the previous post while I was drafting it - couldn't find the right words - so I went with it as is. Sorry, if I offended anyone...It seems like the posts I've read so far are from people who've looked at the big picture [or real picture of the world]...Unlike the "some people" I referred to that looked at the "sales brochure of Christianity."
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GarthP2000
T-Bone,
Most of the atheists/agnostics I've talked to who were once religious haven't left Christianity/religion because of it was less focused on God and more on themselves, but on what they regard as the nonsensical concepts of the belief system that they just couldn't accept, or the strict demands to believe in the doctrine (or else burn in hell), or even whatever psychological/other forms of abuse they endured while they were in the religious stages of their lives.
The things one finds out and the misconceptions that one gets cleared up when one _actually talks to and gets to know_ where the unbelievers are really coming from re: this kind of topic, hmmm? That's what I've come to learn.
<_<
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Belle
JumpinJive, I read something similar to your post about all the murders - in the name of God; all the death - in the name of God; all the legalism imposed on people - in the name of God. How on earth can all these people do, allow and justify all those horrible things - in the name of God? If that's God - then I want nothing to do with it.
It was a serious wake-up call for me. Like the illogic was right there plain as day and I never acknowledged it. Those terrorists and insurgents are doing what they do - in the name of God. The Spanish Inquisition was done - in the name of God. The Crusades were carried out and people were murdered - in the name of God. Anti-abortion folks are bombing abortion clinics - in the name of God.
And they all justify other horrendous, evil acts as well.
There's just too much illogic and unexplained "stuff" for me to buy into the whole thing anymore. I don't have the answers, but I don't think typical Christians do either. Difference is, they won't admit it but neither can they explain it.
T-Bone, no need to apologize. This is the place where we get to think out loud, muse thoughts over and share ideas, opinions and ask questions. Thankfully most of the people on here realize that and will not get offended. Some may disagree, but they will maturely and respectfully share why they disagree. I know, at least with me, they've been patient and I've done lots of thinking out loud on here....oodles of it...some downright ridiculous thinking in my part, but I've always been handled, treated and replied to very reasonably and very kindly.
I think you're right about the folks buying into the brochure and then spend their whole lives trying to make their life fit into that brochure when clearly it doesn't live up to all the hype despite all their effort. Some give up, others continue living in la la land and still others close their eyes and ears because it's too painful to admit. I know that doesn't cover the gamut of reasons/opinions, but it's more for illustration than anything.
I always used my parents as an example when arguing with my ex about TWIt doctrine. My parents do the exact opposite of what TWI teaches in so many ways and they are rich (but weren't always), happy, secure, loved, respected and the cream of the crop in our hometown and in the town they've only been in a few years. All because of how much they cheerfully give, do and get involved with people's lives and the community itself. It's so much more than following a recipe, imo. I see the same thing with my grandparents and many of my other relatives. They truly have the "more abundant life" TWI promised but couldn't deliver.
Does God have anything to do with that? I dunno. I know they love Him and they live according to the two laws Jesus laid out - Loving God and Loving your neighbor. Whether or not God has anything to do with that is anybody's guess, imo. But I know how they live and I'm endeavoring to do that....I just don't know where God fits into that picture anymore.
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ChasUFarley
Excellent post!
I'm going to take this one step further and say that thing that totally rubs me the wrong way is when certain groups/religions think that *they* are God's chosen people.
When I was in TWI I thought we were God's household - his family. Anyone who didn't believe what we believed - drank the Kool Aid - was not going to get the rewards we had or live the more abundant life we were living. (I was living in a $325/month studio apartment and driving an '89 Ford Festiva with over 150K miles on it - and could barely make ends meet - yeah, THAT'S ABUNDANCE!) It didn't matter if other people were born again or spoke in tongues - they didn't fellowship with TWI, so they weren't as good as we were.
Fast forward a year or so after I left TWI in 2000....
It occurred to me that God was bigger than the box we tried to put him in all the time. He was bigger than the pesky things we were praying for all the time that we thought we needed because we had our needs and wants parallel - or so we thought. We taught in TWI that God was no respector of persons and then in the next breath told people to be sanctified from their earthly family who didn't stand with TWI because they weren't in the Household - what was that all about? What a crock!
There was a time shortly after I left TWI when I was examining what I believed in and really wondered if I still believed in God at all. It was a tough time because I'd already been through so much with leaving my husband, leaving the ministry, and then considering my belief system and if any of it was true.
I came to the conclusion of: I'm glad I took PFAL - it changed my life. I don't care about the plagerism, or other baggage VPW had going on (yes, it effects his integrity, in my eyes) but what I'm saying is that I was able to glean the good from it - it was worth it - for me. It was the time I spend in TWI that was toxic - but that was my choice. Like Belle, I still believe in God. I don't believe he's the Club Manager that TWI and many, too many, other groups have made him out to be. As a result of this, I think that understanding how or why others believe or don't believe is important - which is why I started this thread. I am hopeful that it remains a good sounding board for others to share their beliefs/thoughts/experiences.
Peace.
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T-Bone
Thanks Belle for your kind words...and also think I too do a fine job of contributing some ridiculous ideas...Like everyone else - I read stuff on Grease Spot and think about what someone said -let it simmer...And to be honest - most of the time I think my reason for posting something is to solicit feedback - not to win an argument...This thread has been VERY INTERESTING for me...I have my doubts at times - usually about my relationship with God, or don't see any signs of help from God on something big in my life [guess I'm sort of in the self-centered brand of Christianity]...I don't recall having bouts of doubting His existence - but I do wrestle with the problem of evil...From my simplified viewpoint I tend to think the Bible doesn't explain a whole lot of WHY about things - but has a whole lot to say about WHAT we should do. If you read Luke 13: 1-5, some people came to Jesus about some Galileans that Pilate had killed. I take it they came to him to ask why that happened [judging by his response - saying "do you suppose they were greater sinners?"] and then Jesus also brings up about a tower falling on some people - but he doesn't answer them with why those bad things happened - he just says "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish." ......
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JumpinJive
No need to apologize T-Bone! I thought it was a great post and a relevant topic. Every group needs a marketing plan and the church certainly isn't the first to tap into our natural desires for health and prosperity. I would agree that this has caused folks to leave certain churches, although not necessarily become agnostics. As Garth noted, "the nonsensical concepts of the belief system" is what probably pushes people over the edge. That's what did it for me, anyway.
Belle: Excellent points. And "I don't have the answers" is about as succinct a description of agnosticism as I can imagine.
-JJ
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rhino
Well, I have to admit, as a neurotic dyslexic agnostic, I lay awake at night wondering if there is a dog.
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Raf
I'm sure you meant that you lie awake at night.
One assumes you're awake if you're laying at night, but it requires a partner, and wondering whether there's a dog while laying may inhibit performance.
Just thought I'd let you know.
Grammar man strikes again.
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