Thou Shalt Kill

[satori001]

I find it odd that 700+ Muslim clerics wanted an Afghanistan man put to death because he converted to Christianity, but I find it more odd that "moderate, mainstream Islam," you know, the vast majority of wonderful Muslims who live and work among us, have not voiced as much as a peep of protest against the latest example of draconian Islamic intolerance.

Sure, the nice Muslim couple down the street won't put a "shame on you, Taliban" sign in their yard, any more than I would if some Americans disgraced our country (the guards at Abu Ghraib, for instance). But like a Greek chorus, there was a loud outcry of revulsion from all the public voices that speak for my demographic group about the "humiliation" of prisoners.

The corresponding disappointment we'd expect from the public voices of "moderate, mainstream Islam," whether domestic US outlets or the official media in Muslim nations has, er, failed to materialize.

There is something disturbing about Muslim prayer. I think their prayers' physical behavior creates the mindset of a "zombie" - or at least, one of utter subjection and obedience. Zombie-like. Try it, just going through the motions. Get on your knees, raise your hands over your head, then lean forward so your head and hands are on the floor. Now do it again, and again, and again, and again... Now imagine a room or hall full of others doing the same thing.

Is it any wonder they seem to riot on command in these 3rd world countries, at the whim of some robed goon resembling Charlie Manson, where the average education may be little better than grammar school, and a stern religious grammar school at at that?

What's the answer?

I dunno. The radicals don't fear death, and they're sure not afraid of killing others. Killing seems to be their First Commandment, wherever they meet with the least resistance. Pork warheads maybe? We're gonna need to be creative.

Edited March 30, 2006 by satori001

[J0nny Ling0]

Ya know, I really believe that they are members of a death cult. Like you said in so many words; "Where is the outrage amongst the Muslim Majority?"

Well, there is none. And the reason why is because they are all fanatics. It's just that some are more fearful to act as their "more comitted brethren" do. And then again, maybe they are just waiting in the wings to help "overthrow the Infidel" once the more comitted open that door.

Ya know, a friend of mine asked me tonight; "And so, if we nuke the sonsof biotches, what are they gonna do? Hate us?" Sheeit, they already hate us and wish death upon us and dish it out whenever they can, and I think that we have only begun to see what these Islamis will do...

I have said it here before: It's too bad the Crusades failed...

[dmiller]

Pork em!!

[ChattyKathy]

Umar ibn al-Khattab was the second elected khalifa or caliph (successor) after the death of the Prophet Muhammad. He was the head of state of the Muslim nation at the time. About to enter Jerusalem in 638 after his forces had triumphed over the Romans at the Battle of Yarmouk, Umar descended from his horse and called at the gates of the city for all of the leaders of the Christian Church to meet him there. Addressing their elder, Bishop Sophronious, he made the historic Covenant of Umar, requiring all Muslims forever to guarantee Christians freedom of religion, use of their houses of worship, and the right of their followers and pilgrims to visit their holy places. Umar also rescinded the Roman decree banishing Jews from Jerusalem and pledged to protect their freedom of religious practice. The Covenant of Umar was, in effect, the first international guarantee of the protection of religious freedom.

Apparently they no longer believe one of the sacred leaders of their church.

(thanks Satori for starting it here and at least giving me this shot before it gets moved to that room I don't frequent anymore)

[mstar1]

Thank You Kathy that was interesting.

i dont know the answer although i am highly in favor of educating people--all people--to understand a broader view than their own narrow experience

I for one am going to be glad when the War Gods of all the Abrahamic religions are assigned to the trash heap

[ChattyKathy]

With numbers in excess of ¼ of our world belonging to this faith it seems we can't ignore them can we.

All have a good please.

[pond]

Hate has a reason, and they may very feel justified.

America puffs itself up some with reason we understand. they do not anymore than we do them.

You can substitute the word american for christian or any religous group really it works just as well.

We kill in america , everyday, abortions , death penalty, our cities are a mess, murder on and on we can talk about how we do not really seek peace any more than them.

america has deep issues.. I could pick apart and say it is not "Godly", but alas I am one of US.

so Im justified.

I am quite sure they run the same track.

Do they have a right to have enemies worthy of death?

hmmm?

do we?

It is not a let us all just get along world.. never has been.

The solution for me is to seek a God that can call on the truth of what each man may need at the moment.

religous has NEVER been a solution in fact has caused more problems for everyone through the ages.

the other day my child wnated to punch somone for slashing her tires on the car.. she could go on and on about what a LOSER he was and why it was a just decision really .. I asked her so you want to turn into him?

and that is what I think it will come down to each individual choice of what is right or wrong in any given second in time.

it takes a fraction of a second to kill or to begin life... how many times IS it an impulse?

WE ALL think we are right.

I think the problem is no one wants to be wrong, and stop the insanity of what we do.

Creative??? Satori says yes we can spend billions of plotting and planning the defeat of this horrible "enemy" but when the day is done are we not exactly the same as what they also have done?

I think this is why I believ in a God.

Because we are all hopeless and at the very mercy of one another without one.

[pond]

You want to know why they do not out cry?

against their own?

Because these feelings love and hate are instilled deep and call me what you will they do not go away no matter how pc anyone pretends to be.

the war was not about 911 , now.. but it worked back then as a emotinal cry .

We claim to care about our country, and many do.. willing to kill and die for its name.

yet all those who are silent who ride the tide of everyday life we also hear and think and feel.. but few very few speak .

and less often heard.

[Galen]

I find it odd that 700+ Muslim clerics wanted an Afghanistan man put to death because he converted to Christianity, but I find it more odd that "moderate, mainstream Islam," you know, the vast majority of wonderful Muslims who live and work among us, have not voiced as much as a peep of protest against the latest example of draconian Islamic intolerance. ...

Yeah.

'Extremist Muslims' don't like:

Judeo-Christianity, nor Capitalism, nor Democracy. [each of these things separately they hate]

When Multinational corporations move into Muslim countries bringing these three things grouped together into Muslim lands, the 'extremist' have issue.

We have seen these guys before. The Ottoman Empire, was huge and it took a thousand years for it to fizzle itself out.

For whatever reason, building things and even technical knowledge of how to build things is a considered a heresy. Look to Saudi Arabia for example, a camel-herder mentality with a modern military but their own people can not have technical knowledge without being an infidel, so they hire 'infidel engineers and technicians' to live in walled-off compounds to repair and maintain their military equipment.

During the times of the Roman Empire, pride was taken in engineering and building stuff. Rome built solid smooth roads that reached out to ever corner of their empire. They encouraged the flow to goods, messengers, and military connecting every corner of the empire. That enabled Rome to spread out and control a huge area of land. Many of those roads still exist today. I have driven on them.

The Ottoman Empire was huge and powerful, but without engineering on it's side, they were not as easily able to control a large area. IT expended much more of their effort just to maintain control of their own empire.

It seems to me, that looking at the Muslim religion when it is allowed to develop into a theocracy, it must live off outside sources to maintain it's own infrastructure. Otherwise they live in huts and herd goats around.

This world-view is not compatible with poly-religious capitalism which habitates most of the planet. The World's multinational corporations are part of the UN which is housed on American soil. UN troops and UN operations are done primarily with American troops. It is only logical that when 'Muslim Extremists' want to reach out and attack it all, they do so symbolically attacking America.

Since it seems that they are going to continue attacking us, I prefer them to attack 'us' in some far off land.

In mind demented mind, I consider Iraq and Afghanistan to be 'lightning rods' drawing attacks, and yet keeping those attacks away from our home soil.

:)

[J0nny Ling0]

Well, One Day, the King Of Kings will come back and set things straight. And who knows? Maybe it is sooner than we might think? There certainly are "wars and rumors of wars", which according to the new testament, wil be happening in the last days when "perilous times shall come". And then every knee shall bow, and God, the ultimate and supreme power will sort out the wheat from the chaff.

My comments about "nuking them" are not my true sentiments. I just get really frustrated by these people who could simply begin to live and prosper if they would just "shut up", quit their religious "bitching", lay down their arms and do as Rodney King asked. But, they just won't, and things will simply have to play out as God has layed it out in His Word. And , there is no getting around it, it's going to happen as has been prophesied, but, it's still so frustrating to watch it happen, because it is awful and sad, and tragic, and heart rending.... :(

[sirguessalot]

I hope this,

from the Free Muslim Coalition might help you guys...

...to some degree or nuther

ok, a few more

Sufi Islam

American Islamic Scholars Issue Fatwa Against Terrorism

Islamic Extremist Terrorism on Wikipedia

More Anti-terrorism Islam links

Muslim Scholars

Muslim scholars discuss role of faith in Peacemaking. (Muslim-American Activism).

Imams and Rabbis - News

btw..yes...there are obviously huge urgent problems in the world with fundamentalist CULTures more extreme than TWI ever was

imo, its most always better to light a candle rather than curse the darkness

Edited March 30, 2006 by sirguessalot

[ChattyKathy]

Todd, thanks for the great links. I've been to a couple of those and they're able to give a level headed display of information worth reading. I hadn't much time to give it yet but had looked at the first link and read some of the quick previews of the article inside and one caught my eye that I looked further at. These were just a few of the things I saw and stopped reading to note this in case this thing disappears on me.

In the history of Islam, the first recorded apostasy was during the time of Prophet Muhammad. Since he was illiterate, the prophet had obtained several scribes to write down the revealed messages of God in the form of Qur’an. One of the scribes in Madinah was Abdullah ibn Sa'ad ibn Abi Sarh. After being a Muslim and having spent time with Muhammad, Abdullah renounced the religion. This apostate was neither persecuted nor punished.

If they are so set on doing the will of their Prophet then why don't they follow his or his successor's example? Perhaps envy for what others in foreign lands appeared to have that was forbidden to them stirred them to no good. Someone along the way decided to buy the lie and continue it.

These verses clearly express God's wrath for the apostate. Equally clearly, these verses imply that the apostate must not be killed because – for dead people cannot repent. God did not decree death sentence for them. Indeed, He did not prescribe any worldly punishment. The punishment will be severe in the Hereafter. These verses state...

But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to their defiance of Faith, - never will their repentance be accepted; for they are those who have (of set purpose) gone astray. Those who disbelieve and die as disbeliever, an earthful of gold will not be accepted from any of them, even if such a ransom were possible. They have incurred painful retribution; they will have no helpers. (Qur’an 3: 90-91)

How is it possible for those people to add defiance if they are killed? If recanting faith lead to death or any other earthly punishment, what is the meaning of no compulsion?

I don't need to add my question; the writer did it pretty thoroughly.

Edited March 31, 2006 by ChattyKathy

[TheInvisibleDan]

There are a few Muslim voices being raised out there...such as this Muslim woman:

"Ridiculing bin Laden as a "Neanderthal", she challenges Muslims to end "Islam's totalitarianism". The faith, she argues, has lost the capacity for self-examination and inquiry that blossomed in its golden age from AD 750 to AD 1250, when Muslims invented algebra, created the guitar and opened the world's first university. She is particularly dismissive of the "desert Islam" that Arabs have imposed on the non- Arab majority of Muslims. What the religion needs now, she says, is to revive the forgotten Islamic tradition of independent thought known as ijtihad. The first step, she suggests, should be a campaign to support female Muslim entrepreneurs "to kick-start change in Islam"".

http://www.muslim-refusenik.com/news/times-04-04-27.html

[ChattyKathy]

Created the guitar! :blink: Oh my goodness!

[Yanagisawa]

A history of philosophy teacher of mine said many yrs ago, " This is an example of a culture that did not experience The Enlightenment and the ensuing Birth of the Modern Mind."

[pond]

Yang

did your teacher say it was a biological issue?

like they are not evolved like the Americans or any other culture?

interesting

[Yanagisawa]

Absolutely not!

Only that the Enlightenment & Age of Reason that swept through Europe, with it's with it's skepticism and eventual disavowal of the presumed authorities of Medieval Europe (most notably the presumed authority of clergy and Scholasticism) did not take hold in these cultures.

The Modern Mind was birthed in the climate of secular rationalism and scientific inquiry brought on by the likes of Descartes, Locke, Hume, Hobbes, Kant, Liebnitz. This tradition was bequeathed, whether good or bad, to America by way of it's founding constituency.

This tradition did not seem to infiltrate the Muslim cultures - thereby forcing them, to this day, to live in a Medieval world view of authority and truth.

[pond]

so this period of enlightenment didnt happen to their culture!

geeez whiz

how long have we insulted them?

the idea that they are stuck in med evil thinking.

I doubt that , I believe they have plenty of scholasticism in their own academic arena.

the presumed downfall of the authority the "clergy, has NOT hit many many cultures...

Hello the RC has a stronghold in many countries including America. the power and authority of the RC Church ranks very high .

In peoples mind I understand they feel it is also politicaly linked so do I about the RC, in many cultures and countries.

The more I read the more I get why they hate us so darn much.

we have never respected their position.

why do they want to kill with vengance? well like I said so does America if you look at it from their shoes for a minute.

thanks

[satori001]

Hate has a reason, and they may very feel justified.

Are all reasons created equal? You seem to think so. Defense is rational behavior. Murder is irrational behavior.

Some people don't see the difference. Those people must be, by definition, irrational themselves.

Rational and irrational people live side by side, pond. It is rational people who respect life, and who must, to protect or defend life, sometimes therefore take life. How does a rational person know which life to take, and which to defend? Any guesses?

America puffs itself up some with reason we understand. they do not anymore than we do them.

This is not about puffing and posturing, it is about placing a value on human life, and defending life against those who place no value upon it.

You can substitute the word american for christian or any religous group really it works just as well.

America is not a religion, decreed by devine authority. It is a nation, decreed by philosophy rooted in reason and the rights of man.

We kill in america , everyday, abortions , death penalty, our cities are a mess, murder on and on we can talk about how we do not really seek peace any more than them.

It takes years for the death penalty to be carried out, and only after many appeals. Are most Americans either murderers or approving of murder? I don't think so. Do you?

america has deep issues.. I could pick apart and say it is not "Godly", but alas I am one of US.

Humanity has "deep issues," therefore so has America. America has dealt better with those issues than Islam's dictatorships and nihilistic cults. Or don't you think so?

so Im justified.

You have a right to your opinion. That is not the same as justification.

I am quite sure they run the same track.

Which track is that? Do you believe the Islamists are behaving like Americans? Is that right?

Do they have a right to have enemies worthy of death?

I'm trying to understand what it means to have "a right to have enemies worthy of death." Does it mean the right to kill anybody that doesn't embrace your religion?

hmmm? do we?

Do we what? Do we have a right to put a stop to rogue states bent on conquest? I think we do.

Do rogue states have a right to conquer and loot anyone they like, no matter how it might affect the region or the world? I think they don't. Just my opinion though.

There are those who consider our invasion of Iraq no different than Iraq's invasion of Kuwait - "all about oil." That opinion requires an utter lack of understanding. It's a popular opinion though.

It is not a let us all just get along world.. never has been.

How do we "get along" with the Hitlers of our generation? Accommodation? Appeasement? Acquiescence? Apologies?

The solution for me is to seek a God that can call on the truth of what each man may need at the moment.

That's a very popular view, and practiced by plenty of religions who hate one another. How does that view solve anything?

religous has NEVER been a solution in fact has caused more problems for everyone through the ages.

And?

the other day my child wnated to punch somone for slashing her tires on the car.. she could go on and on about what a LOSER he was and why it was a just decision really .. I asked her so you want to turn into him?

Do police turn into criminals when they resort to force? Did Americans become Nazis when we fought the Germans in WWII? Is defense the same as attack? Is protection the same as aggression? They all require force. They all require conflict. They all require violence. Is it all the same then? When God defeats the devil and casts him into the lake of fire, will He then become the devil?

and that is what I think it will come down to each individual choice of what is right or wrong in any given second in time.

Another popular outlook. But upon what values are "right and wrong" based? Every person's own subjective impulse?" Any thoughts where that might lead?

it takes a fraction of a second to kill or to begin life... how many times IS it an impulse?

WE ALL think we are right.

You seem to be on both sides of your own arguement.

I think the problem is no one wants to be wrong, and stop the insanity of what we do.

I don't quite understand the above sentence. It seems to be two fragments from other sentences that somehow stuck together.

Creative??? Satori says yes we can spend billions of plotting and planning the defeat of this horrible "enemy" but when the day is done are we not exactly the same as what they also have done?

What do you think? If we defeat Islamic extremism in all it's militant forms, does that make us like them?

I think this is why I believ in a God.

Is that a fact?

Because we are all hopeless and at the very mercy of one another without one.

Are we all hopeless then? That's your conclusion?

It's been enlightening, pond.

Edited April 1, 2006 by satori001

[ChattyKathy]

Whether they accept it or not those who filled their innocent children's minds with evil translations of their holy book and who on their own would do such cruel things as stand by when their young daughters are being mutilated are as much to blame as their sicko leaders! They continue the lie and to reap damnation. They did it to themselves! And if we're all they say we are then why do they sell their souls to move here? That will continue to be a bite in my foot!

[pond]

At one time america was a rogue state Satori.

Actualy i do think Americans approve of murder, look at our nation with a eye for what we do in the examples I cited.

You didnt hear the president say it is NOT abut 911 ? Now he says it isnt So what are we in defense of?

WE do not like how they live, so kill them.. and they say right back at ya. l I see no difference.

yeah in a sense I think the mindset of defeating and war and conquest and the powerfull who decides what is right or wrong is instilled just as deep in america.

why does america decide they are wrong and we are right?

to save the world from harm , yeah Satori no puffing or posturing IN THAAT thinking > america is not as popular as many think we may be.

WE do not agree with them that is my point so why should we force them to agree with the "value of human life" when they chose not to?

have you seen the abortion stats? again we are also a country that puts very little value on human life.

I have no solutions , and you think that is a shame , so where are yours?

just kill all the nay sayers because we are a better people?

kind of Ironic isnt that is exactly their position as well.

[satori001]

At one time america was a rogue state Satori.

A rogue state is generally considered a dictatorship that supports terrorism. Except for the loony left, nobody would recognize America by that description.

Actualy i do think Americans approve of murder, look at our nation with a eye for what we do in the examples I cited.

I don't think your examples constitute murder, or approval.

You didnt hear the president say it is NOT abut 911 ? Now he says it isnt So what are we in defense of?

Saddam was ruthless and ambitious, and had he ever succeeded in gaining nuclear weapons, he could have precipitated a nuclear war. Did you notice what happened to our economy when 3 planes crashed into buildings? What do you think nuclear war might do? How many American lives, directly or indirectly, might that cost?

WE do not like how they live, so kill them.. and they say right back at ya. l I see no difference.

We do not kill those who live in a way that we disapprove of. If we did, France would be a smoldering ash heap.

yeah in a sense I think the mindset of defeating and war and conquest and the powerfull who decides what is right or wrong is instilled just as deep in america.

If that's so, why did we wait for 9/11? And a lot longer than that?

why does america decide they are wrong and we are right?

Our record on human rights versus theirs, for one. Lots more where that came from.

to save the world from harm , yeah Satori no puffing or posturing IN THAAT thinking > america is not as popular as many think we may be.

Saving the world doesn't make you popular then, does it? And we're a lot more popular than you think. Most of the world's press is biased against capitalism, and many are nationalized and report what they are ordered to report. The people have a different view, and many, if not most, love America. They know which country has stood up to the world's greatest tyrannies in the last 200 years, and they know how things might have turned out if we hadn't.

WE do not agree with them that is my point so why should we force them to agree with the "value of human life" when they chose not to?

When it's our life they don't value, yes, I think force is necessary. When it results in aggression which might ignite a war we don't want, yes, I think so. But who said anything about agreeing? We need to contain or kill them. Murderers forfeit their right to live.

have you seen the abortion stats? again we are also a country that puts very little value on human life.

While I do not support unregulated abortion, I don't think it is a valid measure of how we value human life. The controversy over abortion is a much better measure.

I have no solutions , and you think that is a shame , so where are yours?

I never said it was a shame. As for any solutions, I am asking for them, not offering them.

just kill all the nay sayers because we are a better people?

What do "nay sayers" have to do with anything?

kind of Ironic isnt that is exactly their position as well.

I still don't know who the naysayers are, pond. Who is saying "nay?" And to what? And since when is that the issue we're discussing here?

Edited April 2, 2006 by satori001

[Tom Strange]

Over? Did you say "over"? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? He11 no!

[satori001]

Thanks Tom.

[coolchef1248 @adelphia.net]

i must be missing something

didn't japam bomp pearl harbor?