- Temple recommends. What are they? How do you get them? Are they important?
There are chapels which is where churches held and there is the Temple where ordinances that LDS hold to be sacred are preformed.
In order to participate in the temple ceremony you need a recommend from the bishop--the recommend process is very simple about 15 minutes max, where you answer basic questions to ascertain if you believe the church is true and are you following basic commandments of God
The actual service in temples is regarded as sacred but among other things, eternal marriages, baptisms for the dead and sealings of families are preformed there. LDS regard these ordinances as essential to ensure families are together for eternity. these beliefs are founded on
Matthew 16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
- Missionaries...is that a mandatory, strongly encouraged, or optional thing?
What most people think of as a mission in the LDS church is served by young adults, It is strongly encouraged for boys, and more and more girls are going out also. Boys serve 2 years girls 18 months. There is no better way, to strengthen a testimony and see the Gospel in action than to witness it on the mission field. Most missionaries return , with increased self-confidence and are well on there way to productive adulthood having learned not only spiritual things but also how to budget, time, money, and resources, as well as learning communication skills and the ability to work and share with others
What most people don't realize is that is only one kind of mission. There are missions for married couple, local missions, etc. All is mission really is is a set time you give to the church where service to the church becomes your "job" many couples and singles go on these kinds of missions after they retire.
- Garments. What's up with that? What's the theological basis?
The best answer is that Garments( church issued underwear) are worn by all those members who have been to the temple and received their endowments ( a ceremony where covenants are made with God) They are a physical reminder, when we wear them, that we have made promises to God which we must honor-- the wearing of Scapula in the RC tradition, a rosary, a cross, or a crucifix would be the closest I could come to explaining it
- Tithing. Mandatory/optional/recommended? Is it monitored?
Tithing is recommended and a requirement for a temple recommend
It isn't mandatory--you won't be denounced from the pulpit or excommunicated if you don't
It is monitored only in the sense that it is keep track of by clerks so that the church has an accurate accounting of funds, and that statements can be issued for tax purposes at the end of the year.
If I make 2000 a month and "tithe" 150 --that isn't a full tithe--but I'm the only one who would know that unless I announce that I'm only paying 150 instead of 200. The Bishop will ask if you pay a full tithe on occasion,. If you say yes and you aren't--It's God you'll have to answer to not the bishop, because he'll take your word for it
- What's the order of precedence with the scriptures... Bible? Book of Mormon? Doctrine and Covenants?
Precedence is not the applicable word
It's all scripture
We believe the Bible in as far as it is translated accurately
The following is the introduction to the book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
In addition to Joseph Smith, the Lord provided for eleven others to see the gold plates for themselves and to be special witnesses of the truth and divinity of the Book of Mormon.
The Doctrine and Covenants is a group of revelations to Joseph Smith and other prophets of the church, covering specific times and places as well as church organization and practice.
Having been in TWI I am one bitten twice shy when it comes to scripture
I have searched diligently and have found nothing in the BOM or D&C which negates or denies even one principle in the Bible if anything, my study of these scriptures in conjunction with the Bible have lead to a deepening of my understanding and love for the Bible.
Sunday School in the LDS church follows a four year cycle
Please explain the LDS view of the trinity. Who is the Father? Who is Jesus? Who is the Holy Spirit?
We don't believe in the trinity
There is Heavenly Father/GOD
A being with a body of flesh and bone
he is the creator
We are all his children
There is Jesus Christ
He made this world at the direction of Heavenly Father
He is the "God" of the Old Testament after the garden of Eden
HE came to this earth a a human just as we are human
He lead a sinless life
He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane where he took on the sins of the world, so great was his suffering that he sweated drops of blood
was beaten scourged and mocked
He died on the cross
He was raised from the dead by Heavenly Father thus forever breaking the bonds of death
He is the propitiation for our sins and our mediator with God
He will welcome and stand for us at the final judgement
The Holy GHOST
The Holy Ghost is Heavenly Fathers Spirit which is indwelling in all baptized members UNLESS they sin which case it departs since that which is holy cannot abide in the same place with that which is unholy
Again, this is interesting. First time I heard of garments compared to a scapular...
So, I understand that you can't participate in any of the sacred ordinances without being a member in good standing (which is my interpretation of the temple recommend), but you can't even witness them?
The next logical question would be, when you first got yours, were there any suprises in the ceremonies? Did you have access to descriptions of what went on or was that reserved also (sort of like freemason initiation rites?)?
And, regarding the tithe, that seems like a goodly way of doing it. BTW, pre-tax, post-tax, or your conscience?
- Baptisms for the dead. Again, what's the theology?
I Corinthians 15
12] Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?
[13] But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
[15] Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not.
[16] For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
[20] But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
[21] For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
[29] Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
THE LDS Church holds that Baptisms for the dead and sealings are some of the "plain and precious truths" that have been lost form the Bible.
Water baptism by immersion is believed to be essential for salvation since Jesus Christ himself had to be baptized by immersion by his cousin John before the Holy Ghost descended to dwell in Him
So, I understand that you can't participate in any of the sacred ordinances without being a member in good standing (which is my interpretation of the temple recommend), but you can't even witness them?
If you are worthy to enter the temple. then you would be a participant, there would be no point in witnessing them only.
The questions does arise when family members of the bride or groom are not LDS.
LDS temple are weddings for sealing couples in eternal marriage and sacred nature so only those members with temple reccommends are allowed in.
The next logical question would be, when you first got yours, were there any suprises in the ceremonies? Did you have access to descriptions of what went on or was that reserved also (sort of like freemason initiation rites?)?
No, no surprises in the sense of I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know all the specifics of the ceremonies because they are sacred, but I was prepared , and told what to expect in general terms, and one of my friends went with me the first time as a"coach" and the temple workers were so very wonderful. it is just a really "Magical" experience in the spiritual sense
And, regarding the tithe, that seems like a goodly way of doing it. BTW, pre-tax, post-tax, or your conscience?
In the Lord’s commandment to the people of this day, tithing is “ ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income.” The First Presidency has said, “No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970, quoted in the General Handbook of Instructions, 1989, p. 9-1; see also D&C 119).
Last things. What happens to good people when they die? Bad people? Good people who just aren't LDS? Good people who aren't Christian?
there are three KINGDOMS OF GLORY (Heaven) in LDS theology and PERDITION
GREEN notes by me
Celestial Kingdom
The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.
The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins.
In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:
"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
"Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts"
Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven"
From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
Terrestrial Kingdom
Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (These are people that studied the church and knew it was true yet declined to join)
Telestial Kingdom
Telestial Glory will be reserved for "individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus (in other words, liars thieves, etc) These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed form "spirit prison", which is sometimes called hell
Perdition
Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" ( It takes a conscious decision to serve and follow the devil to be sent here)
OK, Maureen, let me see if I grasp the divinity concept of LDS then:
- God (the Father) has a flesh and blood body. God (the Father) created all of what we know as heaven and earth.
- Jesus is what was identified as "God" in the Old Testament. At the direction of the Father, he created the world. He also, from the beginning had a flesh and blood body (did I hit that one correctly?). He suffered, died, and was buried. God (the Father) raised him from the dead.
- The Holy Ghost is not a "person" but a force, a property of the Father that He imparts within baptized persons.
A couple of questions:
- Was Jesus eternal, or was he a created being, in LDS theology?
- Is Jesus regarded as a god or a demigod?
- You said he came to earth as a human being. Was he born? If so, how was he conceived? Did he go through the normal maternity process or something else? Would Mary have been considered his mother or just a foster mother? When he was on earth, did he possess all the faculties that he did when he was identified as the God of the Old Testament?
I think your explanation of the last things make sort of sense without questions, but there are a couple of things that I'd heard, that I'd appreciate verification of:
1) I remember reading someplace that LDS theology taught that Lucifer was originally a similar being to Jesus prior to a rebellion. I don't remember exactly what it was, but is there something along those lines in LDS teaching?
2) I also seem to remember something that people who are in the celestial kingdom gain some similar sort of properties as Jesus. Again, the details are foggy. But is there some teaching along those lines?
Again, I hope you'll pardon all the dumb and possibly repetitive questions, but I do sincerely appreciate hearing these things from somebody who is in a position to know.
OK, Maureen, let me see if I grasp the divinity concept of LDS then:
- God (the Father) has a flesh and blood body. God (the Father) created all of what we know as heaven and earth.
- Jesus is what was identified as "God" in the Old Testament. At the direction of the Father, he created the world. He also, from the beginning had a flesh and blood body (did I hit that one correctly?). He suffered, died, and was buried. God (the Father) raised him from the dead.
- The Holy Ghost is not a "person" but a force, a property of the Father that He imparts within baptized persons.
Right on all counts
A couple of questions:
- Was Jesus eternal, or was he a created being, in LDS theology?
He was created by Heavenly Father
- Is Jesus regarded as a god or a demigod?
Jesus is what the Old Testament refers to as God, but there is only one God who is the object of Worship and that is Heavenly father-
You said he came to earth as a human being. Was he born? If so, how was he conceived? Did he go through the normal maternity process or something else? Would Mary have been considered his mother or just a foster mother?
LDS accept the gospel accounts of Jesus conception birth and family as recorded in the New Testament as being true
When he was on earth, did he possess all the faculties that he did when he was identified as the God of the Old Testament?
My understanding is that he did not possess them since while he was on earth he was human. However, He was never deprived of His freedom of choice--all he had to do was tell Heavenly Father in effect, "I changed my mind and I want out of this plan" and the whole atonement would not have taken place, Satan knew this too when he Tempted Jesus to hurl himself off the Temple--He was trying to bait Jesus into abandoning the plan of salvation.
I think your explanation of the last things make sort of sense without questions, but there are a couple of things that I'd heard, that I'd appreciate verification of:
1) I remember reading someplace that LDS theology taught that Lucifer was originally a similar being to Jesus prior to a rebellion. I don't remember exactly what it was, but is there something along those lines in LDS teaching?
All of us are spirit children of Heavenly father and were with Heavenly Father in the preexistence. Heavenly Father also created the angels and Archangels, and all the heavenly host. Heavenly Father realized that as his spirit children we needed the opportunity to grow in faith and mature so hew decided to give us the option to come to earth and live in flesh and bone bodies.
A great council was held and the topic came up as to how we were going to make it back to Heavenly Father from our sojourn on earth. Lucifer in effect said, "Heavenly Father, I can do the job, I will make it so man will not violate your commandments, and they will all return, then you will be pleased at how well I have done.
Jesus spoke up and said in effect , "Heavenly Father If we give them no choice then they will be deprived of their freedom of choice and YOU will never know what their decision would have been, Give man freedom of choice, give him commandments to live by and arrange for there to be sacrifices so that he may return even if he errs, then YOU will have the glory.
Heavenly father agreed that Jesus' plan was the better of the two. Enraged Satan left the court of heaven with a third of the angels, those who had supported his plan,
2) I also seem to remember something that people who are in the celestial kingdom gain some similar sort of properties as Jesus. Again, the details are foggy. But is there some teaching along those lines?
President Lorenzo Snow gives us a picture of the importance of celestial marriage: “When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman in the other life, having celestial<A name=LPHit50> bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end!” (Lorenzo Snow, The Deseret Weekly, 3 Apr. 1897, p. 481.)
but is the celestial vs the terrestial kingdom kinda like the JW's 144,000??
I looked up the 144,000 on the internet
The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth
Only in the very loosest sense
Because everyone one on earth will have the chance to talk to the missionaries in the spirit world before the resurrection, everyone will have a chance to accept the Restored gospel. If you never were taught the Restored gospel, or never knew it to be true than you can accept in in the spirit world and go to the Celestial kingdom That's why LDS do baptisms for the dead etc so that if someone accepts the Restored gospel their temple work will be done. There is no number limit on how many will be in the Celestial Kingdom
The Terrestial Kingdom is made up of LDS who didn't keep all the commandments or who never went to the temple, People who knew the Restored gospel was true here on earth but rejected it and accepted later in the spirit world, people who believed In Jesus and his atonement etc but never had the chance to hear the Restored gospel and reject the Restored gospel in the Spirit world, And people who have led Godly lives without ever hearing the Restored gospel and choose no to accept it in the spirit world
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, Evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the world of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal• many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
JOSEPH SMITH.
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring worlds without end.
Interesting......that would be good positive motivation for one to keep his nose clean while here then...
I do appreciate all the answers to the questions, Maureen. I'd been curious about those things for a while (just not curious enough to dig through all the writings or to expose myself to asking the questions directly in a F2F environment)
As I said, facts are the best way to diffuse incorrect assumptions.
VPW should have been a Mormon if you ask me. That way he could have had more than 1 wife and by-passed all the adultery accuasations from his "holier-than-thou" antagonists. At least polygamy makes adultery 'squeaky clean' for the Mormons. I don't believe it really matters anyway. All their accusations do is help write the book: No Man Really Knows My History whenever they speak of VPW.
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templelady
I'm game
There are chapels which is where churches held and there is the Temple where ordinances that LDS hold to be sacred are preformed.In order to participate in the temple ceremony you need a recommend from the bishop--the recommend process is very simple about 15 minutes max, where you answer basic questions to ascertain if you believe the church is true and are you following basic commandments of God
The actual service in temples is regarded as sacred but among other things, eternal marriages, baptisms for the dead and sealings of families are preformed there. LDS regard these ordinances as essential to ensure families are together for eternity. these beliefs are founded on
Matthew 16
[19] And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
What most people think of as a mission in the LDS church is served by young adults, It is strongly encouraged for boys, and more and more girls are going out also. Boys serve 2 years girls 18 months. There is no better way, to strengthen a testimony and see the Gospel in action than to witness it on the mission field. Most missionaries return , with increased self-confidence and are well on there way to productive adulthood having learned not only spiritual things but also how to budget, time, money, and resources, as well as learning communication skills and the ability to work and share with others
What most people don't realize is that is only one kind of mission. There are missions for married couple, local missions, etc. All is mission really is is a set time you give to the church where service to the church becomes your "job" many couples and singles go on these kinds of missions after they retire.
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markomalley
Thanks. Look forward to reading more.
I have found that facts are always a good defense against unfounded and uninformed attacks.
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sirguessalot
for the record...
i have been very interested in the book of Mormon for a number of years now
for a number of reasons
as well as the various levels of Mormon histories
and have visited locations in Salt Lake a number of times
and always invite the "milk men" in when they stop by
and they usually stay til the have to go
so...enjoying where this thread is promising to go
thanks to both Mark and TL
i will mostly observe though
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templelady
Tithing is recommended and a requirement for a temple recommend
It isn't mandatory--you won't be denounced from the pulpit or excommunicated if you don't
It is monitored only in the sense that it is keep track of by clerks so that the church has an accurate accounting of funds, and that statements can be issued for tax purposes at the end of the year.
If I make 2000 a month and "tithe" 150 --that isn't a full tithe--but I'm the only one who would know that unless I announce that I'm only paying 150 instead of 200. The Bishop will ask if you pay a full tithe on occasion,. If you say yes and you aren't--It's God you'll have to answer to not the bishop, because he'll take your word for it
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templelady
Precedence is not the applicable word
It's all scripture
We believe the Bible in as far as it is translated accurately
The following is the introduction to the book of Mormon
The Book of Mormon is a volume of holy scripture comparable to the Bible. It is a record of God’s dealings with the ancient inhabitants of the Americas and contains, as does the Bible, the fullness of the everlasting gospel.
The book was written by many ancient prophets by the spirit of prophecy and revelation. Their words, written on gold plates, were quoted and abridged by a prophet-historian named Mormon. The record gives an account of two great civilizations. One came from Jerusalem in 600 B.C., and afterward separated into two nations, known as the Nephites and the Lamanites. The other came much earlier when the Lord confounded the tongues at the Tower of Babel. This group is known as the Jaredites. After thousands of years, all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians.
The crowning event recorded in the Book of Mormon is the personal ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ among the Nephites soon after his resurrection. It puts forth the doctrines of the gospel, outlines the plan of salvation, and tells men what they must do to gain peace in this life and eternal salvation in the life to come.
After Mormon completed his writings, he delivered the account to his son Moroni, who added a few words of his own and hid up the plates in the hill Cumorah. On September 21, 1823, the same Moroni, then a glorified, resurrected being, appeared to the Prophet Joseph Smith and instructed him relative to the ancient record and its destined translation into the English language.
In due course the plates were delivered to Joseph Smith, who translated them by the gift and power of God. The record is now published in many languages as a new and additional witness that Jesus Christ is the Son of the living God and that all who will come unto him and obey the laws and ordinances of his gospel may be saved.
Concerning this record the Prophet Joseph Smith said: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.”
In addition to Joseph Smith, the Lord provided for eleven others to see the gold plates for themselves and to be special witnesses of the truth and divinity of the Book of Mormon.
The Doctrine and Covenants is a group of revelations to Joseph Smith and other prophets of the church, covering specific times and places as well as church organization and practice.
Having been in TWI I am one bitten twice shy when it comes to scripture
I have searched diligently and have found nothing in the BOM or D&C which negates or denies even one principle in the Bible if anything, my study of these scriptures in conjunction with the Bible have lead to a deepening of my understanding and love for the Bible.
Sunday School in the LDS church follows a four year cycle
Pearl of Great Price & Old Testament
New Testament
BOM
D&C
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templelady
We don't believe in the trinity
There is Heavenly Father/GOD
A being with a body of flesh and bone
he is the creator
We are all his children
There is Jesus Christ
He made this world at the direction of Heavenly Father
He is the "God" of the Old Testament after the garden of Eden
HE came to this earth a a human just as we are human
He lead a sinless life
He suffered in the Garden of Gethsemane where he took on the sins of the world, so great was his suffering that he sweated drops of blood
was beaten scourged and mocked
He died on the cross
He was raised from the dead by Heavenly Father thus forever breaking the bonds of death
He is the propitiation for our sins and our mediator with God
He will welcome and stand for us at the final judgement
The Holy GHOST
The Holy Ghost is Heavenly Fathers Spirit which is indwelling in all baptized members UNLESS they sin which case it departs since that which is holy cannot abide in the same place with that which is unholy
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markomalley
Again, this is interesting. First time I heard of garments compared to a scapular...
So, I understand that you can't participate in any of the sacred ordinances without being a member in good standing (which is my interpretation of the temple recommend), but you can't even witness them?
The next logical question would be, when you first got yours, were there any suprises in the ceremonies? Did you have access to descriptions of what went on or was that reserved also (sort of like freemason initiation rites?)?
And, regarding the tithe, that seems like a goodly way of doing it. BTW, pre-tax, post-tax, or your conscience?
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templelady
- Baptisms for the dead. Again, what's the theology?
I Corinthians 15
THE LDS Church holds that Baptisms for the dead and sealings are some of the "plain and precious truths" that have been lost form the Bible.
Water baptism by immersion is believed to be essential for salvation since Jesus Christ himself had to be baptized by immersion by his cousin John before the Holy Ghost descended to dwell in Him
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templelady
The questions does arise when family members of the bride or groom are not LDS.
LDS temple are weddings for sealing couples in eternal marriage and sacred nature so only those members with temple reccommends are allowed in.
No, no surprises in the sense of I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know all the specifics of the ceremonies because they are sacred, but I was prepared , and told what to expect in general terms, and one of my friends went with me the first time as a"coach" and the temple workers were so very wonderful. it is just a really "Magical" experience in the spiritual sense
And, regarding the tithe, that seems like a goodly way of doing it. BTW, pre-tax, post-tax, or your conscience?
In the Lord’s commandment to the people of this day, tithing is “ ‘one-tenth of all their interest annually,’ which is understood to mean income.” The First Presidency has said, “No one is justified in making any other statement than this” (First Presidency letter, 19 Mar. 1970, quoted in the General Handbook of Instructions, 1989, p. 9-1; see also D&C 119).
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templelady
there are three KINGDOMS OF GLORY (Heaven) in LDS theology and PERDITION
GREEN notes by me
Celestial Kingdom
The celestial kingdom is the highest of the three kingdoms of glory. Those in this kingdom will dwell forever in the presence of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ. it is the result of a lifetime of righteousness and constancy of purpose.
The celestial kingdom is the place prepared for those who have "received the testimony of Jesus" and been "made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood" To inherit this gift, we must receive the ordinances of salvation, keep the commandments, and repent of our sins.
In January 1836 the Prophet Joseph Smith received a revelation that expanded his understanding of the requirements to inherit celestial glory. The heavens were opened to him, and he saw the celestial kingdom. He marveled when he saw his older brother Alvin there, even though Alvin had died before receiving the ordinance of baptism. Then the voice of the Lord came to the Prophet Joseph:
"All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
"Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
"For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts"
Commenting on this revelation, the Prophet Joseph said, "I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven"
From another revelation to the Prophet Joseph, we learn that there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom. To be exalted in the highest degree and continue eternally in family relationships, we must enter into "the new and everlasting covenant of marriage" and be true to that covenant. In other words, temple marriage is a requirement for obtaining the highest degree of celestial glory. All who are worthy to enter into the new and everlasting covenant of marriage will have that opportunity, whether in this life or the next.
Terrestrial Kingdom
Those who inherit terrestrial glory will "receive of the presence of the Son, but not of the fulness of the Father. Wherefore, they are bodies terrestrial, and not bodies celestial, and differ in glory as the moon differs from the sun" Generally speaking, individuals in the terrestrial kingdom will be honorable people "who were blinded by the craftiness of men" This group will include members of the Church who were "not valiant in the testimony of Jesus" It will also include those who rejected the opportunity to receive the gospel in mortality but who later received it in the postmortal spirit world (These are people that studied the church and knew it was true yet declined to join)
Telestial Kingdom
Telestial Glory will be reserved for "individuals who "received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus (in other words, liars thieves, etc) These individuals will receive their glory after being redeemed form "spirit prison", which is sometimes called hell
Perdition
Some people will not be worthy to dwell in any kingdom of glory. They will be called "the sons of perdition" and will have to "abide a kingdom which is not a kingdom of glory" This will be the state of "those who know [God's] power, and have been made partakers thereof, and suffered themselves through the power of the devil to be overcome, and to deny the truth and defy [God's] power" ( It takes a conscious decision to serve and follow the devil to be sent here)
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allan w.
I won't say anything except...glad thats out in the open, people can now judge it on it's own merit.
They say that Joseph Smith was born less than 100 miles from where Americas spiritualist movement began, now it kind of makes sense.
Mo, if thats what you're into, more power to you. Just bear in mind the house you're dwelling in from whence you throw your stones, God Bless.
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markomalley
OK, Maureen, let me see if I grasp the divinity concept of LDS then:
- God (the Father) has a flesh and blood body. God (the Father) created all of what we know as heaven and earth.
- Jesus is what was identified as "God" in the Old Testament. At the direction of the Father, he created the world. He also, from the beginning had a flesh and blood body (did I hit that one correctly?). He suffered, died, and was buried. God (the Father) raised him from the dead.
- The Holy Ghost is not a "person" but a force, a property of the Father that He imparts within baptized persons.
A couple of questions:
- Was Jesus eternal, or was he a created being, in LDS theology?
- Is Jesus regarded as a god or a demigod?
- You said he came to earth as a human being. Was he born? If so, how was he conceived? Did he go through the normal maternity process or something else? Would Mary have been considered his mother or just a foster mother? When he was on earth, did he possess all the faculties that he did when he was identified as the God of the Old Testament?
I think your explanation of the last things make sort of sense without questions, but there are a couple of things that I'd heard, that I'd appreciate verification of:
1) I remember reading someplace that LDS theology taught that Lucifer was originally a similar being to Jesus prior to a rebellion. I don't remember exactly what it was, but is there something along those lines in LDS teaching?
2) I also seem to remember something that people who are in the celestial kingdom gain some similar sort of properties as Jesus. Again, the details are foggy. But is there some teaching along those lines?
Again, I hope you'll pardon all the dumb and possibly repetitive questions, but I do sincerely appreciate hearing these things from somebody who is in a position to know.
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dmiller
Mark -- thanks for starting this here. :)
I'm curious too, and would rather hear it from someone like Mo.
And thank you Mo, for being accomodating. :)
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dmiller
I know we are *loading your plate* with questions here,
but is the celestial vs the terrestial kingdom kinda like the JW's 144,000??
Meebe Raf could hop in here, and help to explain that one.
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GarthP2000
Allan,
Doesn't look to me like she was the one throwing the stones here.
<_<
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dmiller
And ---- I might add that I am glad to hear it from someone *in the know*, and not second hand info. ;)
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LG
I'm also interested, Maureen, not because I wish to embrace or refute your beliefs, but simply because I'd like to know more about them.
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templelady
okay from the top we'll start with markomalley
Right on all countsHe was created by Heavenly Father
Jesus is what the Old Testament refers to as God, but there is only one God who is the object of Worship and that is Heavenly father-LDS accept the gospel accounts of Jesus conception birth and family as recorded in the New Testament as being true
My understanding is that he did not possess them since while he was on earth he was human. However, He was never deprived of His freedom of choice--all he had to do was tell Heavenly Father in effect, "I changed my mind and I want out of this plan" and the whole atonement would not have taken place, Satan knew this too when he Tempted Jesus to hurl himself off the Temple--He was trying to bait Jesus into abandoning the plan of salvation.I think your explanation of the last things make sort of sense without questions, but there are a couple of things that I'd heard, that I'd appreciate verification of:
All of us are spirit children of Heavenly father and were with Heavenly Father in the preexistence. Heavenly Father also created the angels and Archangels, and all the heavenly host. Heavenly Father realized that as his spirit children we needed the opportunity to grow in faith and mature so hew decided to give us the option to come to earth and live in flesh and bone bodies.
A great council was held and the topic came up as to how we were going to make it back to Heavenly Father from our sojourn on earth. Lucifer in effect said, "Heavenly Father, I can do the job, I will make it so man will not violate your commandments, and they will all return, then you will be pleased at how well I have done.
Jesus spoke up and said in effect , "Heavenly Father If we give them no choice then they will be deprived of their freedom of choice and YOU will never know what their decision would have been, Give man freedom of choice, give him commandments to live by and arrange for there to be sacrifices so that he may return even if he errs, then YOU will have the glory.
Heavenly father agreed that Jesus' plan was the better of the two. Enraged Satan left the court of heaven with a third of the angels, those who had supported his plan,
President Lorenzo Snow gives us a picture of the importance of celestial marriage: “When two Latter-day Saints are united together in marriage, promises are made to them concerning their offspring that reach from eternity to eternity. They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring worlds without end. And what offspring they do not have here, undoubtedly there will be opportunities to have them hereafter. What else could man wish? A man and a woman in the other life, having celestial<A name=LPHit50> bodies, free from sickness and disease, glorified and beautified beyond description, standing in the midst of their posterity, governing and controlling them, administering life, exaltation and glory worlds without end!” (Lorenzo Snow, The Deseret Weekly, 3 Apr. 1897, p. 481.)
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templelady
I looked up the 144,000 on the internet
The Anointed (144,000) will be in heaven to reign with Jehovah God. The rest of the faithful Jehovah's Witnesses (not of the 144,000) will live forever on a paradise Earth
Only in the very loosest sense
Because everyone one on earth will have the chance to talk to the missionaries in the spirit world before the resurrection, everyone will have a chance to accept the Restored gospel. If you never were taught the Restored gospel, or never knew it to be true than you can accept in in the spirit world and go to the Celestial kingdom That's why LDS do baptisms for the dead etc so that if someone accepts the Restored gospel their temple work will be done. There is no number limit on how many will be in the Celestial Kingdom
The Terrestial Kingdom is made up of LDS who didn't keep all the commandments or who never went to the temple, People who knew the Restored gospel was true here on earth but rejected it and accepted later in the spirit world, people who believed In Jesus and his atonement etc but never had the chance to hear the Restored gospel and reject the Restored gospel in the Spirit world, And people who have led Godly lives without ever hearing the Restored gospel and choose no to accept it in the spirit world
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templelady
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541
1 WE believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.
3 We believe that through the atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, repentance; third, baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, Evangelists, and so forth.
7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
8 We believe the Bible to be the world of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal• many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
JOSEPH SMITH.
The Official Scriptures of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
© 2000 by Intellectual Reserve, Inc. All Rights Reserved.
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markomalley
They are promised that they shall have the power and the right to govern and control and administer salvation and exaltation and glory to their offspring worlds without end.
Interesting......that would be good positive motivation for one to keep his nose clean while here then...
I do appreciate all the answers to the questions, Maureen. I'd been curious about those things for a while (just not curious enough to dig through all the writings or to expose myself to asking the questions directly in a F2F environment)
As I said, facts are the best way to diffuse incorrect assumptions.
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WordWolf
We have something called "the in-ter-net."
We can use it 24/7 (that means 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, or "always",
to look up anything we want.
If we wanted to know what any church teaches,
we can find the reference in less than a minute.
(Or less than 10 minutes for some of us.)
So, it was always "out in the open", but some of us who cared
were too lazy to look it up.
If they said that Allan was born less than 50 miles from a whorehouse,would that make a kind of sense as well?
Hey-you were the one who said geography meant anything....
I'm sure templelady is aware of the perspective from which she's
posting, and you are posting.
So are the rest of us, and, so far, if all of Christianity was
divided between "templelady's church" and "allen's church",
and I had to pick one,
I'd say I like hers a lot better.
I can pass on the unfounded attacks and rudeness when I'm
looking for people who claim to represent God.
In fact, having been there and done that,
I've no desire to go there and do it again.
========
As for the rest of you,
if you see benefit in this thread and post friendly,
hey, more power to you.
I expect to be bowing out, but my conscience bade me
make that post.
(I reserve the right to return if attacked.)
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markomalley
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey
I resemble that remark!
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What The Hey
VPW should have been a Mormon if you ask me. That way he could have had more than 1 wife and by-passed all the adultery accuasations from his "holier-than-thou" antagonists. At least polygamy makes adultery 'squeaky clean' for the Mormons. I don't believe it really matters anyway. All their accusations do is help write the book: No Man Really Knows My History whenever they speak of VPW.
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