And to go further, if they really felt that all debt was sin, then, if they were patriotic, they should encourage their people NEVER to purchase US Savings Bonds, since they would be "enabling" the US Government by lending it money for interest. Hey, if all debt is sin, and therefore wrong, then none of them should have any type of bonds, including bond funds in their 401(k)'s and other retirement accounts.
I know how their logic will go (I already heard LCM say it before): "The Word says you can lend, but not borrow." Lend to other nations, which in wayspeak means "unbelievers." So, in wayspeak, what is an unbeliever? ANYONE NOT IN TWI - including Christians right in their communities, etc. A cult sees everyone on the outside of their group as "unbelievers." So it is OK to loan to them for profit.
But even then it amazed me how we could be lectured on the merits of thrift, chided for spending money on items that weren't necessary, while in almost the same breath told how we should be ABSing more, and spending more supporting TWI
Funny I guess it's just the old five senses me-but if I spend more than I take in --that's debt and it really doesn't matter where I do the spending
did a spell check on this post and as a alternate to "ABSIng "it offered "abasing"
Actually, when a TWIt deposits money in TWI's credit union, the credit union owes that TWIt the money and must pay interest on that money to the TWIt. TWI's credit union is basically borrowing money from TWIts. On it's balance sheet, it's treated as a liability.
Yes, you are correct. The Credit Union does owe the TWI depositor its money with interest.
LCM years ago stopped the Credit Union from making any loans. So, if they have no means
(the credit union is a separate legal entity from the ministry) to make money via the interest from
loaning money, then the only other way to make that money is by reinvesting it in other ways.
Since it is a credit union, and employees are required to have direct deposit from TWI into their credit union, the $ must be FDIC insured also. The CU's money is put into debt instruments from other banks & such. That is how they get the $ for the dividends that they pay to the staff's depositors in the CU.
And yes, dmiller, I agree. It is GREAT to be out of debt, and encourage (not force) people to live within
their means, be thrifty, and prosper. My big beef is against the whole stigma against those who decide to buy a home, etc. How does one put on "the whole armor of God" if teachings on 6 of 9 manifestations are withheld from their people for being in debt? And to date, I am not aware of any 'practical' guidance that twi has given to their people for effectively purchasing a home w/o credit, still saving for retirement while renting, having a home where to live in retirement but not paying for one in your working years, etc. They just have no care or concern for their people. Tell them what not to do, but not what to do.
It's all one huge cluster .... they don't know jack about the "real world" and the ones "on the field" are either so blinded by TWI tit that they can't see how detrimental that policy is for people OR they don't care because they feel like they are safe from those concerns. What's pathetic is those who really believe that TWI is going to take care of them when they reach their "golden years" and start having doctor bills, pharmacy charges, surgery needs, etc.... Once those folks can't "produce" for TWI anymore they're going to be kicked to the curb so fast they won't know what hit them.
Moneyhands said that TWI told him they would take care of him and that he believed them. HA! But he also has "Walker's" inheritance that they're sitting on. Thing is, if he's depending on TWI to take care of them, he has to continue jumping through the hoops and kissing the crusty, cheese filled toes of Rosie and can't just "retire" when he wants to. It's got to be killing Dottie to not be able to see those grandbabies very much. I dunno if Rosie's gonna allow the young Moneyhands the spending money to fly to the UK very often.
Once the Martindale kids are all through college I'm willing to wager that college education costs are going to be stripped from any budget concerns for those on TWI's payroll. Are they still scrutinizing your "need" basis and family budget to decide how much to pay you?
It's a sham.
They support the banks and they gladly make money off other people's money, but they discourage their people from buying stocks because it's the "equivalent to gambling."
They already have all their property paid for by the debts Uncle Harry went into, the money from us and by stealing it from under Mrs. Wierwille's family. Heck, vee pee himself didn't even leave his wife or family anything....so much for laying up an inheritance like the Bible says, eh?
I think, though, that even IF they were currently in debt for those buildings and properties that they'd find some way to spin it to still keep their own flock in bondage.
Heck, vee pee himself didn't even leave his wife or family anything....so much for laying up an inheritance like the Bible says, eh?
I give him credit for putting all eggs in one basket for the perpetual movement of the Word of God he taught.
That was what I was contributing to, and wanted to see continued and perpetuated; ... not the fortune and/or inheritance of the Wierwille family per se.
Well we see how Godly THAT inspiration turned out to be now didn`t we?
Wierwille family zippo..... long time way ministry supporters zippo....... GOD zippo......
Shoot, the only people benefitting at all from alla that family property and money extorted from trusting souls is the bottom feeder attornies and the creepo leaders of twi.
Yeah I`ll give wierwille credit... credit for being dead WRONG
... Shoot, the only people benefitting at all from alla that family property and money extorted from trusting souls is the bottom feeder attornies and the creepo leaders of twi.
I wholeheartedly disagree.
Many folks continue to benefit from the truth taught; ... folks right in twi, folks from the offshoots, folks who no longer fellowship with any group, and future folks who hear the truth thru the past efforts of Dr. Wierwille and others who held forth and continue to hold forth the truth.
I do not look upon my past donations to twi as extorted money.
I gave that money with the sincere desire and belief of seeing the Word of God move, and it did when I gave it, and is still continuing to do so even now thru the aforementioned.
Of course this doesn't mean the Word isn't moving outside of the influences of all that was/is twi, but also doesn't mean that money once donated to twi went for "zippo".
Benefit? I don`t think so....There are a few people in control of the money and property that we all contributed to believing that it was always to be *ours* as vpw promised.
Now 99 % of the people who were promised that it was *our* ministry and *our* grounds...are denied access to the fruits of our years of labor....and the wierwille kids and grandkids their ancestral home.
It is rediculous to believe that God or anybody else in the world is in any way benefited from the garbage that is passed of as scriptural teaching coming out of that snake pit.
Hundreds of millions of dollars in money, property, assets.....and a few fat cats sitting pretty enjoying the inheritance and denying the true beneficiaries access ....nice
To make matters worse or should I say more confusing......... I've had a couple friends of mine that live in different areas of the country - they had their leaders tell them that DEBT IS NOT SIN!!!!!! just not God's will.
It makes me so mad because these are the same leaders not less than a year ago who were out preaching that DEBT in any form is sin. If you buy a car, house etc with a loan bad things will happen to you and/or your family. Your spiritually off your rocker if you dare to consider it or even research it to see if we are telling you the truth - they were hard core on this subject, really hard core. They wouldn't step into believers homes who had a mortgage.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's a good idea for anyone to change who has had their thinking that far to left. My thing is just come out and say we were wrong.
GOD IS GOD or he is not. Since that policy was dead wrong and they are starting to some what back off - just admit it and move on. Since when is God not going to be there for them when they do the right thing.
(what about applying the negative believing or fear thing that is taught in PFAL .....does the word not apply to them??????)
Changing the policy and apologizing is the right thing.
.............. I'm not going to hold my breath though...............
To make matters worse or should I say more confusing......... I've had a couple friends of mine that live in different areas of the country - they had their leaders tell them that DEBT IS NOT SIN!!!!!! just not God's will.
It makes me so mad because these are the same leaders not less than a year ago who were out preaching that DEBT in any form is sin. If you buy a car, house etc with a loan bad things will happen to you and/or your family. Your spiritually off your rocker if you dare to consider it or even research it to see if we are telling you the truth - they were hard core on this subject, really hard core. They wouldn't step into believers homes who had a mortgage.
Hmmmmm......
Sounds like twi has reached the point of blatant disregard for God's Word...??
Did they take Acts 17:11 out of their scripture retemory packs...??
You've got to admit, it is pretty confusing and pathetic :blink:
(not picking on you, but rather their flip flop attitude)
Debt - it is definitely NOT God's will, but it is not sin either :blink:
Isn't the "definition" of sin "to miss the mark."? If it is NOT God's will, then aren't those in debt
"missing the mark" of what God would have them to do / be?
My guess (for what it is worth) is that they wish they never drew the line in this category. If
the people who were (and they definitely were) stomping their foot, and boldly pronouncing that
debt was sin in ANY form, and that everyone should sell their houses, etc....if they are now shifting
to "debt isn't sin, but is not God's will" there is trouble brewing. How does TWI now say to
people, we were wrong, or even "we are changing policies" after hundreds, if not thousands
of their people SOLD THEIR HOUSES years ago in order to not be living in sin? :blink:
How do they keep those folks on the reservation, yet changing their standard?
Finally, if debt is not sin, but "not God's will" either, then why do they still maintain the NO DEBT punishments for people wanting to take the AC, AC Specials, be Twig coordinators, etc.? :blink:
Sounds like punitive measures to me (by the way Rosie HATES when people refer to those measures as
punitive - even wrote a stingy letter to the Corps about not calling them punitive).
Flip Flop, flip flop......not very patriotic IMHO.
Probably like many, we sold our home to make sure we were doing the Will Of God.
The realestate in Nevada has skyrocketed! In less than 6 years the price of homes has doubled, some even tripled.
I know coulda, shoulda, woulda... but had we been left alone, making our payments on time, we would own a home, and had the potential to have made over 100K in our POCKET.
To me that was poor money management.
The Word talks about debt... we're to pay off our debt, give back what is owed.
I can imagine how this could be a sore spot :( I sincerely do appreciate you sharing what you went through in this matter. I really hope others who were wronged in this will also speak up for those "innies" who are still searching for truth.
My first question is, will the ministry take moral responsibility if and when their followers who obeyed this "sell your house to get out of debt" command from twi's leadership, can never retire, because rent must ALWAYS be paid? That is, of course, unless the elderly live with their children....providing the children will take them....provided they had children, etc. Will they take moral responsibility then?
Assuredly not. They will say something to the effect of "you are where you are because of your believing, or lack thereof.....so be an 86-year-old greeter at WalMart." It just sets these people up for condemnation, saying it was their fault due to not believing.
All of that "NO DEBT" policy since '94 is nothing but a sham. While ideally, it's nice not to have any debts. They have to see what types of debts are worthwhile in the long run (mortgages, school loans, starting a business), but they didn't. It's all about filling their pockets.
I feel the main reasons why they enforced the "HAVING A DEBT IS AGAINST GOD'S WORD" parroting are the following:
a) Envy that some rank and file will gain more money than them ro-BOTs.
b) The money going to pay a debt must be going to the ro-BOTs' pockets instead.
c) Sell your possessions to pay-off your debts and send the rest of the money to the ro-BOTs.
It is all about the Benjamins, peeps. With their greed, it's not surprise that they are forcing everyone to "NOT GOING IN DEBT".
So, in conclusion - TWI - if you're listening to me (of course you're not), stop being hypocites!
Save money without earning ANY interest from the debts of others in your community (e.g. CD's so that banks can put people in debt with your money for homes, college, etc.). No bonds either. Just use stocks and their dividends - equity w/o debt.
Therefore, end outside banking relationships - banks must be evil since they enslave others, including Christians, in financial debt.
Publicly admit that Uncle Harry was off God's Word (OK - say it your way "not God's will") when he went into debt to go to school in Lima (student loans to dad), borrowed for his business that funded TWI in early years....and was probably lying when he said God gave him revelation to take out the loan to renovate the Wierwille home. Don't give me that crap about how it went above and beyond the written Word. Heck, it outright contradicted the written Word AS YOU TELL IT regarding debt for homes, etc. Of course God would never give revelation that would contradict what YOU say regarding all debt is evil / sin/ not God's will. Come on, say it!
Rosie's sharing how she bought the land her house was built on, and the house itself, was based on inheritance and other property sold. If so, and if either of those two sources were due to debt (did her parents or ex buy the previous property using debt, etc.), then admit it came from illigitimate sources, etc.
Well TWI - go on now. Let's get clean regarding you not benefitting at all from any debt. As I said before, it is unethical to say, its wrong but I'll profit from others doing the wrong. As I said, pimps don't engage in the prostitution acts, they just profit from it
If TWI cannot do those things, then how can they say all debt is wrong, bad, sin, and not God's Word? :blink:
Nobody has ever answered my questions about being a business owner and debt. I don't see how it's possible to run a successful business without owing something to somebody. Shoot, even your payroll is a debt, technically.
So did like nobody own a business that was with TWI? when the debt commandment came out? I still don't get how that whole thing came down. Sure, everyone knows consumer debt is a killer, and not good, duh? But running a business, homes, morgages, college loans, valid stuff...........????
Nobody has ever answered my questions about being a business owner and debt. I don't see how it's possible to run a successful business without owing something to somebody. Shoot, even your payroll is a debt, technically.
So did like nobody own a business that was with TWI? when the debt commandment came out? I still don't get how that whole thing came down. Sure, everyone knows consumer debt is a killer, and not good, duh? But running a business, homes, morgages, college loans, valid stuff...........????
ok ex10, I'll give it a shot ... :) I do think some businesses can be run without "debt". Payroll is a debt, but there are supposedly assets on hand to pay that short term debt. But of course real money itself is a debt as I see it. A $10 bill is a note saying the government owes you $10 worth of something (used to be gold or silver). So exchanging money is just exchanging debt. (and didn't Jesus say it was better to "put money to work" rather than bury it?)
But I spose twi's real point is for individuals not to borrow from a bank. For an individual to start a winery, you would need some capital. To borrow you need a good business plan or you won't get a loan. Or you could work for a winery and get experience, grow some grapes and make some wine, then work into starting your own business without debt. I certainly see merit to the no debt approach. Like it or not, when you borrow, you've given over part of your life to paying off that debt. Having that obligation can take a serious toll.
On the other hand, if you go into business "undercapitalized" you may fail due to too much scrimping. You don't spend enough on advertising, you don't hire enough help or pay enough to get good workers, or your cheap equipment is inefficient ... so the guy that can borrow and wisely use the money comes out ahead of the guy that scrimps and never spends enough to make it work. Every dollar he can borrow at 6% and have it earn 10%, that is all "good debt". The more of that kind of money he borrows, the richer he will be. But that may depend on his ability, and there is always risk. But in the marketplace you compete against the guy that is willing to take that risk. (And that "guy" might just be Wal-Mart, which even seasoned business veterans have trouble competing against)
My theory on the home thing had nothing to do with twi. I decided I could save the difference between buying a home and renting. I paid almost as much in rent, but had no repairs and no lawn to mow, and lived in a nicer neighborhood than an equal house payment could have afforded. Of course homes have really appreciated, but borrowing on a house in an inflated area now with a flexible rate loan could leave you "upside down" if values stopped going up or went down. Your debt might become greater than the value of your home. In my case, if I'd bought in my neighborhood in New Orleans without flood insurance (many didn't have it) I would have been under water. Still, home ownership is a pretty good way to go, but you could save and buy some land and build your own house without debt. That is what I did. And my business could have been much bigger without ever going in debt, but I didn't want to work that hard :)
Overall I'd say there is some validity to twi's idea, but the system is sorta set up so you almost have to borrow for some things. So you have to determine what is worth going in debt for ... that seems to be where twi is wrong ... they make a law. But if you go in debt, choose your rut carefully, you may be in it a long time.
Or was your question about what people with debt did when the command came down? LOL I do know some people that were much happier when they sold out their business and took a 40 hour/week job. They felt free.
Well TWI - go on now. Let's get clean regarding you not benefitting at all from any debt. As I said before, it is unethical to say, its wrong but I'll profit from others doing the wrong. As I said, pimps don't engage in the prostitution acts, they just profit from it
If TWI cannot do those things, then how can they say all debt is wrong, bad, sin, and not God's Word? :blink:
And, didn't veepee mortgage the hq property to buy the emporia campus????
Oh, that's right..........it's a different time NOW. It's no longer the Ozzie & Harriet days.......and the world is alot more evil.
Rosie's sharing how she bought the land her house was built on, and the house itself, was based on inheritance and other property sold. If so, and if either of those two sources were due to debt (did her parents or ex buy the previous property using debt, etc.), then admit it came from illigitimate sources, etc.
What's really sad, Patriot, is that TWIts today who may have received an inheritance have spent it and are in no position to leave any inheritance for their children....much less their children's children. <_<
So much for the more abundant life and so much for "doing the word"....
Pro 13:22 A good [man] leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner [is] laid up for the just.
Yeah, I remember LCM always saying stupid things like "Beaver Cleaver isn't running the world now" meaning that times are different, so therefore debt is not OK now. That is one way to get Uncle Harry & VPW off the debt hook.
If the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is "The Word of God" based on rightly dividing the Bible, then the conditions of the world should be immaterial to the standard. The Word of God in its written form should transcend every generation, culture, and worldly condition. Therefore, if debt is wrong now, then it should have been wrong in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc. That includes when Uncle Harry received the revelation to take out a loan and renovate the Wierwille home.
Now, if the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is based on "revelation" due to our times / world's conditions, (Like Noah preaching that it was going to rain), then either their "guidance" must come to pass or the Word says that they are speaking presumptuously. Which one is it?? :blink:
Deuteronomy 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shallwe know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
I'll tell you EXACTLY how TWI will spin that verse....pretty standard how they do it to others. They will say that the inheritance is a "spiritual inheritance," just like they downplayed financial prosperity to mean "spiritual prosperity." For that matter, they always made "fornication" and "adultery" to mean the "spiritual" kinds (idolatry) too.
Unfortunately for them, the verse says that the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just. What kind of "wealth" of a sinner would a just and godly man want? Not their "spiritual" wealth - they don't have it, thus they are sinners. Of course it refers to their financial wealth. So, TWI would have a hard time spinning that verse.
In all my years with TWI - I NEVER heard them ever teach that verse. Tough to do since The Word of God is the Will of God. Therefore, to be a "good man," they would need to leave physical wealth as inheritance.
How many of them will do so? How many of them even know that they should? Sad, Sad, Sad. :( More than frustration, I have just lots of pity for them all.
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Patriot
PS -
And to go further, if they really felt that all debt was sin, then, if they were patriotic, they should encourage their people NEVER to purchase US Savings Bonds, since they would be "enabling" the US Government by lending it money for interest. Hey, if all debt is sin, and therefore wrong, then none of them should have any type of bonds, including bond funds in their 401(k)'s and other retirement accounts.
I know how their logic will go (I already heard LCM say it before): "The Word says you can lend, but not borrow." Lend to other nations, which in wayspeak means "unbelievers."
So, in wayspeak, what is an unbeliever? ANYONE NOT IN TWI - including Christians right in their communities, etc. A cult sees everyone on the outside of their group as "unbelievers." So it is OK to loan to them for profit. 
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dmiller
While I agree it is a good thing to be out of debt ---
I gotta say to twi -- GET A LIFE!!
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templelady
I was in before the codified NO debt policy.
But even then it amazed me how we could be lectured on the merits of thrift, chided for spending money on items that weren't necessary, while in almost the same breath told how we should be ABSing more, and spending more supporting TWI
Funny I guess it's just the old five senses me-but if I spend more than I take in --that's debt and it really doesn't matter where I do the spending
--out of the mouths of software...
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GT
Actually, when a TWIt deposits money in TWI's credit union, the credit union owes that TWIt the money and must pay interest on that money to the TWIt. TWI's credit union is basically borrowing money from TWIts. On it's balance sheet, it's treated as a liability.
That's hypocrisy.
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Patriot
G.Tech -
Yes, you are correct. The Credit Union does owe the TWI depositor its money with interest.
LCM years ago stopped the Credit Union from making any loans. So, if they have no means
(the credit union is a separate legal entity from the ministry) to make money via the interest from
loaning money, then the only other way to make that money is by reinvesting it in other ways.
Since it is a credit union, and employees are required to have direct deposit from TWI into their credit union, the $ must be FDIC insured also. The CU's money is put into debt instruments from other banks & such. That is how they get the $ for the dividends that they pay to the staff's depositors in the CU.
And yes, dmiller, I agree. It is GREAT to be out of debt, and encourage (not force) people to live within
their means, be thrifty, and prosper. My big beef is against the whole stigma against those who decide to buy a home, etc. How does one put on "the whole armor of God" if teachings on 6 of 9 manifestations are withheld from their people for being in debt? And to date, I am not aware of any 'practical' guidance that twi has given to their people for effectively purchasing a home w/o credit, still saving for retirement while renting, having a home where to live in retirement but not paying for one in your working years, etc. They just have no care or concern for their people. Tell them what not to do, but not what to do.
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Belle
It's all one huge cluster .... they don't know jack about the "real world" and the ones "on the field" are either so blinded by TWI tit that they can't see how detrimental that policy is for people OR they don't care because they feel like they are safe from those concerns. What's pathetic is those who really believe that TWI is going to take care of them when they reach their "golden years" and start having doctor bills, pharmacy charges, surgery needs, etc.... Once those folks can't "produce" for TWI anymore they're going to be kicked to the curb so fast they won't know what hit them.
Moneyhands said that TWI told him they would take care of him and that he believed them. HA! But he also has "Walker's" inheritance that they're sitting on. Thing is, if he's depending on TWI to take care of them, he has to continue jumping through the hoops and kissing the crusty, cheese filled toes of Rosie and can't just "retire" when he wants to. It's got to be killing Dottie to not be able to see those grandbabies very much. I dunno if Rosie's gonna allow the young Moneyhands the spending money to fly to the UK very often.
Once the Martindale kids are all through college I'm willing to wager that college education costs are going to be stripped from any budget concerns for those on TWI's payroll. Are they still scrutinizing your "need" basis and family budget to decide how much to pay you?
It's a sham.
They support the banks and they gladly make money off other people's money, but they discourage their people from buying stocks because it's the "equivalent to gambling."
They already have all their property paid for by the debts Uncle Harry went into, the money from us and by stealing it from under Mrs. Wierwille's family. Heck, vee pee himself didn't even leave his wife or family anything....so much for laying up an inheritance like the Bible says, eh?
I think, though, that even IF they were currently in debt for those buildings and properties that they'd find some way to spin it to still keep their own flock in bondage.
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oldiesman
I give him credit for putting all eggs in one basket for the perpetual movement of the Word of God he taught.
That was what I was contributing to, and wanted to see continued and perpetuated; ... not the fortune and/or inheritance of the Wierwille family per se.
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rascal
Well we see how Godly THAT inspiration turned out to be now didn`t we?
Wierwille family zippo..... long time way ministry supporters zippo....... GOD zippo......
Shoot, the only people benefitting at all from alla that family property and money extorted from trusting souls is the bottom feeder attornies and the creepo leaders of twi.
Yeah I`ll give wierwille credit... credit for being dead WRONG
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oldiesman
I wholeheartedly disagree.
Many folks continue to benefit from the truth taught; ... folks right in twi, folks from the offshoots, folks who no longer fellowship with any group, and future folks who hear the truth thru the past efforts of Dr. Wierwille and others who held forth and continue to hold forth the truth.
I do not look upon my past donations to twi as extorted money.
I gave that money with the sincere desire and belief of seeing the Word of God move, and it did when I gave it, and is still continuing to do so even now thru the aforementioned.
Of course this doesn't mean the Word isn't moving outside of the influences of all that was/is twi, but also doesn't mean that money once donated to twi went for "zippo".
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rascal
Benefit? I don`t think so....There are a few people in control of the money and property that we all contributed to believing that it was always to be *ours* as vpw promised.
Now 99 % of the people who were promised that it was *our* ministry and *our* grounds...are denied access to the fruits of our years of labor....and the wierwille kids and grandkids their ancestral home.
It is rediculous to believe that God or anybody else in the world is in any way benefited from the garbage that is passed of as scriptural teaching coming out of that snake pit.
Hundreds of millions of dollars in money, property, assets.....and a few fat cats sitting pretty enjoying the inheritance and denying the true beneficiaries access ....nice
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Belle
Pro 13:22 A good [man] leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner [is] laid up for the just.
Pro 19:14 House and riches [are] the inheritance of fathers: and a prudent wife [is] from the LORD.
:unsure:
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djs
To make matters worse or should I say more confusing......... I've had a couple friends of mine that live in different areas of the country - they had their leaders tell them that DEBT IS NOT SIN!!!!!! just not God's will.
It makes me so mad because these are the same leaders not less than a year ago who were out preaching that DEBT in any form is sin. If you buy a car, house etc with a loan bad things will happen to you and/or your family. Your spiritually off your rocker if you dare to consider it or even research it to see if we are telling you the truth - they were hard core on this subject, really hard core. They wouldn't step into believers homes who had a mortgage.
Don't get me wrong - I think it's a good idea for anyone to change who has had their thinking that far to left. My thing is just come out and say we were wrong.
GOD IS GOD or he is not. Since that policy was dead wrong and they are starting to some what back off - just admit it and move on. Since when is God not going to be there for them when they do the right thing.
(what about applying the negative believing or fear thing that is taught in PFAL .....does the word not apply to them??????)
Changing the policy and apologizing is the right thing.
.............. I'm not going to hold my breath though...............
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skyrider
Hmmmmm......
Sounds like twi has reached the point of blatant disregard for God's Word...??
Did they take Acts 17:11 out of their scripture retemory packs...??
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Patriot
DJS
You've got to admit, it is pretty confusing and pathetic :blink:
(not picking on you, but rather their flip flop attitude)
Debt - it is definitely NOT God's will, but it is not sin either :blink:
Isn't the "definition" of sin "to miss the mark."? If it is NOT God's will, then aren't those in debt
"missing the mark" of what God would have them to do / be?
My guess (for what it is worth) is that they wish they never drew the line in this category. If
the people who were (and they definitely were) stomping their foot, and boldly pronouncing that
debt was sin in ANY form, and that everyone should sell their houses, etc....if they are now shifting
to "debt isn't sin, but is not God's will" there is trouble brewing. How does TWI now say to
people, we were wrong, or even "we are changing policies" after hundreds, if not thousands
of their people SOLD THEIR HOUSES years ago in order to not be living in sin? :blink:
How do they keep those folks on the reservation, yet changing their standard?
Finally, if debt is not sin, but "not God's will" either, then why do they still maintain the NO DEBT punishments for people wanting to take the AC, AC Specials, be Twig coordinators, etc.? :blink:
Sounds like punitive measures to me (by the way Rosie HATES when people refer to those measures as
punitive - even wrote a stingy letter to the Corps about not calling them punitive).
Flip Flop, flip flop......not very patriotic IMHO.
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SafariVista
Wasn't going to look here... a painful subject.
Probably like many, we sold our home to make sure we were doing the Will Of God.
The realestate in Nevada has skyrocketed! In less than 6 years the price of homes has doubled, some even tripled.
I know coulda, shoulda, woulda... but had we been left alone, making our payments on time, we would own a home, and had the potential to have made over 100K in our POCKET.
To me that was poor money management.
The Word talks about debt... we're to pay off our debt, give back what is owed.
Where does investing come to play in TWI?
Sheer Stupidity~
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Patriot
Dear S.V.,
I can imagine how this could be a sore spot :(
I sincerely do appreciate you sharing what you went through in this matter. I really hope others who were wronged in this will also speak up for those "innies" who are still searching for truth.
My first question is, will the ministry take moral responsibility if and when their followers who obeyed this "sell your house to get out of debt" command from twi's leadership, can never retire, because rent must ALWAYS be paid? That is, of course, unless the elderly live with their children....providing the children will take them....provided they had children, etc. Will they take moral responsibility then?
Assuredly not. They will say something to the effect of "you are where you are because of your believing, or lack thereof.....so be an 86-year-old greeter at WalMart." It just sets these people up for condemnation, saying it was their fault due to not believing.
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FreeFromCults
Let me add:
All of that "NO DEBT" policy since '94 is nothing but a sham. While ideally, it's nice not to have any debts. They have to see what types of debts are worthwhile in the long run (mortgages, school loans, starting a business), but they didn't. It's all about filling their pockets.
I feel the main reasons why they enforced the "HAVING A DEBT IS AGAINST GOD'S WORD" parroting are the following:
a) Envy that some rank and file will gain more money than them ro-BOTs.
b) The money going to pay a debt must be going to the ro-BOTs' pockets instead.
c) Sell your possessions to pay-off your debts and send the rest of the money to the ro-BOTs.
It is all about the Benjamins, peeps. With their greed, it's not surprise that they are forcing everyone to "NOT GOING IN DEBT".
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Patriot
So, in conclusion - TWI - if you're listening to me (of course you're not), stop being hypocites!
Save money without earning ANY interest from the debts of others in your community (e.g. CD's so that banks can put people in debt with your money for homes, college, etc.). No bonds either. Just use stocks and their dividends - equity w/o debt.
Therefore, end outside banking relationships - banks must be evil since they enslave others, including Christians, in financial debt.
Publicly admit that Uncle Harry was off God's Word (OK - say it your way "not God's will") when he went into debt to go to school in Lima (student loans to dad), borrowed for his business that funded TWI in early years....and was probably lying
when he said God gave him revelation to take out the loan to renovate the Wierwille home. Don't give me that crap about how it went above and beyond the written Word. Heck, it outright contradicted the written Word AS YOU TELL IT regarding debt for homes, etc. Of course God would never give revelation that would contradict what YOU say regarding all debt is evil / sin/ not God's will. Come on, say it!
Rosie's sharing how she bought the land her house was built on, and the house itself, was based on inheritance and other property sold. If so, and if either of those two sources were due to debt (did her parents or ex buy the previous property using debt, etc.), then admit it came from illigitimate sources, etc.
Well TWI - go on now. Let's get clean regarding you not benefitting at all from any debt. As I said before, it is unethical to say, its wrong but I'll profit from others doing the wrong. As I said, pimps don't engage in the prostitution acts, they just profit from it
If TWI cannot do those things, then how can they say all debt is wrong, bad, sin, and not God's Word? :blink:
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ex10
Nobody has ever answered my questions about being a business owner and debt. I don't see how it's possible to run a successful business without owing something to somebody. Shoot, even your payroll is a debt, technically.
So did like nobody own a business that was with TWI? when the debt commandment came out? I still don't get how that whole thing came down. Sure, everyone knows consumer debt is a killer, and not good, duh? But running a business, homes, morgages, college loans, valid stuff...........????
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rhino
ok ex10, I'll give it a shot ... :) I do think some businesses can be run without "debt". Payroll is a debt, but there are supposedly assets on hand to pay that short term debt. But of course real money itself is a debt as I see it. A $10 bill is a note saying the government owes you $10 worth of something (used to be gold or silver). So exchanging money is just exchanging debt. (and didn't Jesus say it was better to "put money to work" rather than bury it?)
But I spose twi's real point is for individuals not to borrow from a bank. For an individual to start a winery, you would need some capital. To borrow you need a good business plan or you won't get a loan. Or you could work for a winery and get experience, grow some grapes and make some wine, then work into starting your own business without debt. I certainly see merit to the no debt approach. Like it or not, when you borrow, you've given over part of your life to paying off that debt. Having that obligation can take a serious toll.
On the other hand, if you go into business "undercapitalized" you may fail due to too much scrimping. You don't spend enough on advertising, you don't hire enough help or pay enough to get good workers, or your cheap equipment is inefficient ... so the guy that can borrow and wisely use the money comes out ahead of the guy that scrimps and never spends enough to make it work. Every dollar he can borrow at 6% and have it earn 10%, that is all "good debt". The more of that kind of money he borrows, the richer he will be. But that may depend on his ability, and there is always risk. But in the marketplace you compete against the guy that is willing to take that risk. (And that "guy" might just be Wal-Mart, which even seasoned business veterans have trouble competing against)
My theory on the home thing had nothing to do with twi. I decided I could save the difference between buying a home and renting. I paid almost as much in rent, but had no repairs and no lawn to mow, and lived in a nicer neighborhood than an equal house payment could have afforded. Of course homes have really appreciated, but borrowing on a house in an inflated area now with a flexible rate loan could leave you "upside down" if values stopped going up or went down. Your debt might become greater than the value of your home. In my case, if I'd bought in my neighborhood in New Orleans without flood insurance (many didn't have it) I would have been under water. Still, home ownership is a pretty good way to go, but you could save and buy some land and build your own house without debt. That is what I did. And my business could have been much bigger without ever going in debt, but I didn't want to work that hard :)
Overall I'd say there is some validity to twi's idea, but the system is sorta set up so you almost have to borrow for some things. So you have to determine what is worth going in debt for ... that seems to be where twi is wrong ... they make a law. But if you go in debt, choose your rut carefully, you may be in it a long time.
Or was your question about what people with debt did when the command came down? LOL I do know some people that were much happier when they sold out their business and took a 40 hour/week job. They felt free.
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skyrider
And, didn't veepee mortgage the hq property to buy the emporia campus????
Oh, that's right..........it's a different time NOW. It's no longer the Ozzie & Harriet days.......and the world is alot more evil.
Duh........................
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Belle
What's really sad, Patriot, is that TWIts today who may have received an inheritance have spent it and are in no position to leave any inheritance for their children....much less their children's children. <_<
So much for the more abundant life and so much for "doing the word"....
Pro 13:22 A good [man] leaveth an inheritance to his children's children: and the wealth of the sinner [is] laid up for the just.
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Patriot
Sky -
Yeah, I remember LCM always saying stupid things like "Beaver Cleaver isn't running the world now" meaning that times are different, so therefore debt is not OK now. That is one way to get Uncle Harry & VPW off the debt hook.
If the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is "The Word of God" based on rightly dividing the Bible, then the conditions of the world should be immaterial to the standard. The Word of God in its written form should transcend every generation, culture, and worldly condition. Therefore, if debt is wrong now, then it should have been wrong in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's, etc. That includes when Uncle Harry received the revelation to take out a loan and renovate the Wierwille home.
Now, if the "No Debt or else" policy w/punishments is based on "revelation" due to our times / world's conditions, (Like Noah preaching that it was going to rain), then either their "guidance" must come to pass or the Word says that they are speaking presumptuously. Which one is it?? :blink:
Deuteronomy 18:20
But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.
And if thou say in thine heart, How shallwe know the word which the Lord hath not spoken?
When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath NOT spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.
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Patriot
Belle,
I love that verse
I'll tell you EXACTLY how TWI will spin that verse....pretty standard how they do it to others. They will say that the inheritance is a "spiritual inheritance," just like they downplayed financial prosperity to mean "spiritual prosperity." For that matter, they always made "fornication" and "adultery" to mean the "spiritual" kinds (idolatry) too.
Unfortunately for them, the verse says that the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just. What kind of "wealth" of a sinner would a just and godly man want? Not their "spiritual" wealth - they don't have it, thus they are sinners. Of course it refers to their financial wealth. So, TWI would have a hard time spinning that verse.
In all my years with TWI - I NEVER heard them ever teach that verse. Tough to do since The Word of God is the Will of God. Therefore, to be a "good man," they would need to leave physical wealth as inheritance.
How many of them will do so? How many of them even know that they should? Sad, Sad, Sad. :( More than frustration, I have just lots of pity for them all.
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