There's good and bad in everything... there were good and bad clergy in TWI.
I'm glad that there are people who were TWI clergy who post here. :) NOW I get to really learn from them. NOW I don't usually know if they are clergy or not and I usually can't remember who is even when they post it. terrible memory I have when it comes to titles
I haven't found any on here that I can recall ever being haughty about it. If they were before when they were involved, I suspect that those who are still here would gladly apologize if they were to hear that they hurt someone one here.
I think these days we are all "one body" with different functions and abilities and that titles aren't necessary or required. What a concept!
My great uncle was a lay minister for over forty years at the same little country church. He worked full time for the post office and that's all I ever knew him as. I only just found out about ten years ago that he was ordained clergy. LOL! He never bragged, never expected any special treatment and never acted "bad" in any way. He just called himself "the old fart who preaches every sunday down the hill." Never even got a paycheck for all those Sundays. Never wanted one.
The post office was his "job" - the church was his "calling". IMO, that's the way it should be.
i guess my original point really was, if we have accepted that the way was essentially a scam--going all the way back to the OH and OK snow jobs--then can we accept the validity of way ordinations? logic tells me no. and my experience tells me that many of the clergy were bozos, and that there were plenty of real leaders who never got the nod. which would substantiate the idea that it wasn't always a godly process, at the very least. i suppose you could choose to think that God was at work in spite of it all. but once you've acknowledged that it was NEVER about listening to God, but rather about making up stuff that was supposed to be from God, then the whole thing falls to pieces. doesn't it?
some may say that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. i think it's just being honest.
Agreed sprawled....there was SO much corruption dating so far back in twi`s history...how can one have any confidence in who was given the nod of aproval by twi leaders.
I knew a couple of very good leaders too... It seemed to me though, that they were that way in SPITE of twi....not because of anything learned in twi.
(jonny--i see you changed "wrong" to "not right." come on, what's the difference? you getting all PC on us?)
Yeah Sprawled, I did change it. I just decided to not be so inflammatory, out of respect for you. I believe I even had the word "wrong" italicized for emphasis. But, when I saw it, I realized it was inflammatory, and would then therfore be flaming. And, I don't want to do that anymore. I used to around here, but, I have come to like a lot of these people, even though we do not always agree. Peace out Brother... :)
I am sure that there were some "fine" reverends in TWI. I only knew a few clergy. I guess I left TWI before the mass revving up took place or before the big wave hit the field.
Truth is. I avoided TWI clergy as much a possible/ Why? you ask ... Cause I found them TWI Clergy (fine or not) were generally bossy and overbearing know it all's. And quite clickish. Yeah, I said it. So shoot me.
You fomer reverends may want to step back a bit and try and try to imagine yourselves in the shoes of someone who was not Corps and was never gonna be Corps. Just your garden variety grad that just wanted to learn and spread the Word.
Now here comes this "reverend" to town (most under 30 years old) giving orders and taking names. rearanging Twigs. Telling folks what and how to teach. He/she ususally only hangs out with other Corps people.... Lots of private meetings with "Corps Only" which wreaked of secrecy and elitism. I don't care how nice you were. The whole thing stunk.
Let me ask, did you former "nice" reverends treat these garden variery folks (like me) as equals? Did you really serve folks (Jesus style) or try to be served? --- Did you pressure folks into doing stuff they didn't want to do. Pressure for more ABS? ( just taking orders ... I know). Did you feel smarter than or more spiritual than those "under" you. That does show you know ......
From MY prospective TWI clergy, good and bad, did all of these things. My prospective come from MY experience.
Now, is some former TWI reverend is gonnna tell me I got it wrong too ? Gimme a break.
Look, I am not saying at all TWI clergy were bad apples. there were surely good apples, but the tree was rotten. So, what I AM saying is that the "fine" clergy were also still working for TWI and pretty much did what they were told. The crap flowed downhill. The nice clergy/ corps just made it taste better when it eventually got fed to the rest of us. It was still crap.
the folks who thought they were more than what they claimed to be , did not.
they were people.
As a group I can define clergy in the way.. many were very depressed.
just sad. maybe it was vpw death but I doubt it .. it was being caught up in "the crap" as you so nicely put it.
with really no way out.
you can say it flowed down hill yeah it did but the heap of the crap was on them every minute of every day with an endless supply pouring in.
I was raised in a small church we had many different pastors I was raised to think they were family ya know just folks who need some friends and to be a friend.
so I took that thought process into twi.. I was never afriad or in the least intimindated by them . the title rev. to me means one who serves and loves those who love God.
how could they be any worse or better than anyone eles. just folks.
I will say my long time best friend was a LC ordained in the way.
we rarely if ever spoke of doctrine. WE mostly cried for the mess life had brought us and our families.
I still love him very much. He was the very one who marked me.
I think clergy has a rough time, I do not think they had it easy.. every minute of their life was under constant critical assessment by everyone.
we used to talk about not putting God in a box, but never about not putting OURSELVES in one. it's nice and refreshing and enlightening to see that we're all different, that we all see things differently and think differently. makes me re-realize that the whole idea of trying to get a bunch of people to toe the party line--whatever it may be--is pure bullsh!t. it's all the DIFFERENT perspectives that make life interesting, anyway.
so for the record, jonny, you can be "inflammatory" with me any time. i don't mind healthy, honest disagreement. and i prefer straight talk to candy-coating. how else are we gonna learn, if no one ever challenges our assumptions? as long as it's a two-way street.
There seemed to be different modes "leaders" would display. When the "Way Hat" was on, some pushed the party line real hard, then in their living room having a beer they were different. And some allowed more of the "real them" out than others. But I'd say the harsher they were as leaders, the harsher they really were, and the living room wasn't always open.
If I believed in possession I'd say those Way spirits would really take over at times for some. :blink: But I guess it was more peer pressure / ego driven / filling some void ... I don't know ... but twi did more to bring out the bad than the good.
Anyway ... that was a long time ago in a place far far away ... how we went in to twi and how we came out doesn't matter as much as good fishing, good gardening, good music... good living today. Salute!
I have to admit i saw "clergy" or "Rev" Got stars in my eyes. in so much got me one of them "mail order ones" Funney I did not feel any diffrerent. Learned a big lesson, didn't mean any thing untill i did something. now i use the title only when i have to.(teaching in jails, hospitals, rehab centers) Then i show the card.
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There's good and bad in everything... there were good and bad clergy in TWI.
I'm glad that there are people who were TWI clergy who post here. :) NOW I get to really learn from them. NOW I don't usually know if they are clergy or not and I usually can't remember who is even when they post it. terrible memory I have when it comes to titles
I haven't found any on here that I can recall ever being haughty about it. If they were before when they were involved, I suspect that those who are still here would gladly apologize if they were to hear that they hurt someone one here.
I think these days we are all "one body" with different functions and abilities and that titles aren't necessary or required. What a concept!
My great uncle was a lay minister for over forty years at the same little country church. He worked full time for the post office and that's all I ever knew him as. I only just found out about ten years ago that he was ordained clergy. LOL! He never bragged, never expected any special treatment and never acted "bad" in any way. He just called himself "the old fart who preaches every sunday down the hill." Never even got a paycheck for all those Sundays. Never wanted one.
The post office was his "job" - the church was his "calling". IMO, that's the way it should be.
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rhino
as far as the rcc condoning [or hideing} perverse behavior from thier clergy yes i have to agree with you But that was years ago
they have been very diligent recently
And it has cost them millions
and imo a lot of those laws suits were bogus
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sprawled out
it's amazing how a topic gets mushed around.
i guess my original point really was, if we have accepted that the way was essentially a scam--going all the way back to the OH and OK snow jobs--then can we accept the validity of way ordinations? logic tells me no. and my experience tells me that many of the clergy were bozos, and that there were plenty of real leaders who never got the nod. which would substantiate the idea that it wasn't always a godly process, at the very least. i suppose you could choose to think that God was at work in spite of it all. but once you've acknowledged that it was NEVER about listening to God, but rather about making up stuff that was supposed to be from God, then the whole thing falls to pieces. doesn't it?
some may say that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. i think it's just being honest.
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rascal
Agreed sprawled....there was SO much corruption dating so far back in twi`s history...how can one have any confidence in who was given the nod of aproval by twi leaders.
I knew a couple of very good leaders too... It seemed to me though, that they were that way in SPITE of twi....not because of anything learned in twi.
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J0nny Ling0
Yeah Sprawled, I did change it. I just decided to not be so inflammatory, out of respect for you. I believe I even had the word "wrong" italicized for emphasis. But, when I saw it, I realized it was inflammatory, and would then therfore be flaming. And, I don't want to do that anymore. I used to around here, but, I have come to like a lot of these people, even though we do not always agree. Peace out Brother... :)
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Goey
I'll add my 2 cents.
I am sure that there were some "fine" reverends in TWI. I only knew a few clergy. I guess I left TWI before the mass revving up took place or before the big wave hit the field.
Truth is. I avoided TWI clergy as much a possible/ Why? you ask ... Cause I found them TWI Clergy (fine or not) were generally bossy and overbearing know it all's. And quite clickish. Yeah, I said it. So shoot me.
You fomer reverends may want to step back a bit and try and try to imagine yourselves in the shoes of someone who was not Corps and was never gonna be Corps. Just your garden variety grad that just wanted to learn and spread the Word.
Now here comes this "reverend" to town (most under 30 years old) giving orders and taking names. rearanging Twigs. Telling folks what and how to teach. He/she ususally only hangs out with other Corps people.... Lots of private meetings with "Corps Only" which wreaked of secrecy and elitism. I don't care how nice you were. The whole thing stunk.
Let me ask, did you former "nice" reverends treat these garden variery folks (like me) as equals? Did you really serve folks (Jesus style) or try to be served? --- Did you pressure folks into doing stuff they didn't want to do. Pressure for more ABS? ( just taking orders ... I know). Did you feel smarter than or more spiritual than those "under" you. That does show you know ......
From MY prospective TWI clergy, good and bad, did all of these things. My prospective come from MY experience.
Now, is some former TWI reverend is gonnna tell me I got it wrong too ? Gimme a break.
Look, I am not saying at all TWI clergy were bad apples. there were surely good apples, but the tree was rotten. So, what I AM saying is that the "fine" clergy were also still working for TWI and pretty much did what they were told. The crap flowed downhill. The nice clergy/ corps just made it taste better when it eventually got fed to the rest of us. It was still crap.
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J0nny Ling0
:)
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pond
I hung out with clergy.
My children played with clergy kids.
the folks who thought they were more than what they claimed to be , did not.
they were people.
As a group I can define clergy in the way.. many were very depressed.
just sad. maybe it was vpw death but I doubt it .. it was being caught up in "the crap" as you so nicely put it.
with really no way out.
you can say it flowed down hill yeah it did but the heap of the crap was on them every minute of every day with an endless supply pouring in.
I was raised in a small church we had many different pastors I was raised to think they were family ya know just folks who need some friends and to be a friend.
so I took that thought process into twi.. I was never afriad or in the least intimindated by them . the title rev. to me means one who serves and loves those who love God.
how could they be any worse or better than anyone eles. just folks.
I will say my long time best friend was a LC ordained in the way.
we rarely if ever spoke of doctrine. WE mostly cried for the mess life had brought us and our families.
I still love him very much. He was the very one who marked me.
I think clergy has a rough time, I do not think they had it easy.. every minute of their life was under constant critical assessment by everyone.
apparently it still is.
they are just people .
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sprawled out
we used to talk about not putting God in a box, but never about not putting OURSELVES in one. it's nice and refreshing and enlightening to see that we're all different, that we all see things differently and think differently. makes me re-realize that the whole idea of trying to get a bunch of people to toe the party line--whatever it may be--is pure bullsh!t. it's all the DIFFERENT perspectives that make life interesting, anyway.
so for the record, jonny, you can be "inflammatory" with me any time. i don't mind healthy, honest disagreement. and i prefer straight talk to candy-coating. how else are we gonna learn, if no one ever challenges our assumptions? as long as it's a two-way street.
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rhino
There seemed to be different modes "leaders" would display. When the "Way Hat" was on, some pushed the party line real hard, then in their living room having a beer they were different. And some allowed more of the "real them" out than others. But I'd say the harsher they were as leaders, the harsher they really were, and the living room wasn't always open.
If I believed in possession I'd say those Way spirits would really take over at times for some. :blink: But I guess it was more peer pressure / ego driven / filling some void ... I don't know ... but twi did more to bring out the bad than the good.
Anyway ... that was a long time ago in a place far far away ... how we went in to twi and how we came out doesn't matter as much as good fishing, good gardening, good music... good living today. Salute!
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indyrobb
I have to admit i saw "clergy" or "Rev" Got stars in my eyes. in so much got me one of them "mail order ones" Funney I did not feel any diffrerent. Learned a big lesson, didn't mean any thing untill i did something. now i use the title only when i have to.(teaching in jails, hospitals, rehab centers) Then i show the card.
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Galen
Maybe I am ?
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