Oooh! CC, I had a major run in with him (D.A.) only a few years back. But, his brother, S.A. and I remain almost "blood brothers" to this day...
Also, I'd like to see some cocky som bee try and drop kick "Fort Wayne Cl*pp"! Now that guy had/has a heart for God's people!
Ya know, personally, I think that some of the comments on this thread are ph uck ed up. Somebody here said that "most of the clergy were or should be dropped kicked or whatever. Shoot man, that's just bs. What about Rev Socks? Not that he would ever go by that title, but, back in the day, he was a very kind soul. I remember him at the Marin County Civic Center in 1977 when I was there as a WOW, I saw him comitt an act of kindness that was a very nice thing to see...
Point being; There were a lot of "clergy" who were kind and loving people. People who, just like so many of us here who "wanted to make a difference". Drop kick 'em? Sure some were pricks, and I can name a few to be sure, but there were a helluva lot of fine people who were "ordinated" who just wanted to help. David Cral*y is another one who comes to mind. And Dean Ell*nwood, and Claudetteee, among others...
"All ya wanna do is help. All ya wanna do is lend him a hand, spread the good news 'crost the Land...."
There were some absolutely terrific clergymen and women who really did make a difference! I remember a clergyman who coordinated Military Outreach named P#%l N*rcr*ss, when I was very new to TWI. I met some wonderful folks prior, but that man changed my life and gave me such great vision as to what I could be and do for God! :)
To me, it seems like being clergy is similar to being a politician in a way. Yes, they are in positions of higharchy and authority, but they are supposed to be in those positions for the good of their people.....God's people! I know that some sought the position because they were an "alpha" type person who wanted the control, honor, and respect. For those people, as Jesus Christ said, they already have their reward. Then there were others, like politicians, who came from humble positions, who wanted so much to just give and serve. For those folks, the FUNCTION meant more than the POSITION. They were the ones who didn't want people cleaning their homes, washing their cars, etc. They were the ones who were just so passionate about having the opportunities to be in the Word and help others with it.
Yes, many of you indeed had some awful experiences with some ego-maniac clergy. Yet let's remember that there were those who did look at their positions as solemn responsibilities before God, and gave of their lives. People like Wayne Cl*pp, J*hn Shr*yer, P**l Norcr*ss, etc. I think that is fair. :)
Exxie, there is no lesser calling. We were ALL called to be royalty - sons and daughters of the King of Kings! You and your family, regardless of any outward notariety, are God's elite....not by your works, but because He made you that way in Christ!
Maybe there is an analogy to be made with the "boy love" in the Catholic church. How does that crap become so pervasive? It doesn't get dealt with strongly enough in the church and seems to become accepted in practice. They get reassigned to molest elsewhere.
Same with ego and salesmanship (and adultrous behavior?) being promoted over inspiration and heart. Some good strong men and women no doubt helped many despite the twi structure, but real problems were not dealt with. Of course that would have meant dealing with vp and many at the root, so even for clergy aware of the problem (how many were not aware?), it would have been difficult. But denial and turning a blind eye seemed the order of the day, and that became systemic.
In that respect I hold even those "good guys" accountable, because they lended credibility to the whole charade. If anyone was going to reveal the corruption to the twiggies, it should have been the clergy. I guess it finally was clergy that shed light on the crap ... the very reverend chris geeer.
Maybe there is an analogy to be made with the "boy love" in the Catholic church. How does that crap become so pervasive? It doesn't get dealt with strongly enough in the church and seems to become accepted in practice. They get reassigned to molest elsewhere.
So let me understand then, you're saying that about 2% of the TWI "clergy" were corrupt? And that 98% were good folks?
I do not see a standard of education for clergy. Most in the churches have at least a masters in theology or conseling , it is needed to help the people with life.
anyone can be ordained . We have to have a license from the state to BE married, it is on file with the state as a legal contract, a licensed clergy or person must do the wedding , for it to be a legal contract and be filed., they must stamp the paper and file it . I believe in most states they can also file a death certificate although it is often done by the funeral director these days. These are some of the legal documents that the state allows them to organize.
otherwise a person is not marriedor dead legaly. some hospitals reguire a clergy license for the clergy to vist intensive care etc.
the clergy in the way was respected more and I think ex10 is right ministers and reverends and those who live for the congregation DO get more honor.
The bible says to give them double honor.. does that mean they have to have a license from the state? Well it is the rules of our country and states.. so yes.
Many folks can be good religous people , but to be ordained is a TITLE earned , and granted by the state to perform certain duties.
Yes I think it makes a difference it shows the dedication of the person to what they belief much like being married or just living together maybe the love is the same but it certainly is regarded ,as more respected, etc.
So let me understand then, you're saying that about 2% of the TWI "clergy" were corrupt? And that 98% were good folks?
Well, the point was that a problem became entrenched ... and wasn't dealt with adequately. The bad molesting priests were reassigned, right?. I have no idea what percent it was ... but it certainly did a lot of harm to the catholic church reputation, priests boogering boys is a standing joke. (Even South Park did a show on that) From the stories, it seems it must have been higher than 2%, is that 2% that were removed? From accounts I have read, it seems they had (have?) some serious problems there.
So if that much harm could be done because the church didn't deal with 2% (or 10%), then so much more so with twi. I think this is where the cult mentality came in. People really became blinded to the harm that was being done. It's hard to break out of that cult mentality. And it's not just the sex.
Like I said, a lot did "good" despite the evils, but being ordained was another ego thing to compel one to stay in the cult, and lead others in as well. My stance is that I "rue the day" that I lead anyone into going WOW or going Corps ... anything that subjected these innocent people to twi dogma and twi abuse. Cult leaders are what kept the cult going. We do agree it was a harmful cult, don't we? While women were being led to vp's motorcoach, I was leading fresh meat to the way corps. And it wasn't just that abuse, but the subjection to the whole power structure ... which apparently really blossomed in the '90's.
Good Seed was great, there were some genuine times, especially earlier ... but you have to look at the whole structure.
I think you bring back a question that was asked in the original post in this thread: i've noticed that even here, the distinction is made between "leaders" and "clergy," or "corps" and "clergy," as though way ordination was valid. was it?
An interesting thing that one should consider when thinking about TWI ordinations is this: according to the scriptural model (cf Acts 6, 14:22; 1 Ti 5:22), valid ordinations need to be performed by the apostles (or their successors and offshoots, who are validly ordained bishops). All twi ordinations were performed by vp or somebody who vp ordained. Was vp a bishop? Can he trace his ordination lineage back to an apostle? If the answer is no, then it would be questionable as to whether the ordination was scripturally valid or not to begin with.
Please note: this is not to disparage anybody who received a TWI "ordination" one way or the other. Like most on this thread, I believe that a person should be evaluated on individual merit not on the existance or nonexistance of a title bestowed upon the individual, regardless of the validity of that title.
Rhino... that was kind of "out of left field" wasn't it? I was totally taken by surprise by that comment.
I like it out here in left field. I'm really not sure which comment you're referring to.
No, I wasn't drinking when I wrote that, but it was 5:00 am or so. I feel the same now at 7am. I just think the bigger picture is the clergy was the power structure that was twi. Many good people may have been caught up in that, but if they were part of it and didn't confront abuses ... they should not be proud of that aspect of their twi life. I still get my dander up a little when I sense that being down played. Honestly, we all should have split much earlier as I see it. To not confront was to submit.
I knew many wonderful fine clergy over the years, including Jonny Lingo, Socks, My3cents, there were some great people.
From my perspective, it seemed almost all in corps 1-4 were pretty much automatically ordained. These people were usually a bit older than me, and had been in the forefront and beginning of TWI in the late '60s, early '70s - they had run many classes before going corps. They were basically the young, youthful leadership who had made TWI's growth happen. I'll also include some 5th in here (Donnie Fugit), they were the last small group that had been with VP their first year at H.Q. and always longed to go back, they hated being in Emporia their last year, us 7th corps were a large sometimes crazy group and the 5th could be very stodgy. I think they thought we were going to hell in a handbasket - we drove them nuts. They were on average about 10 years older - all late '20s, compared to us late teen, early 20 folk.
From about the 6th corps onward, it seemed to me, the rules changed as to who got ordained. It became much more to do with how many classes someone ran, and it got worse as time went on. I know many men who came right out and told me, they would graduate, run classes and get ordained. They were on the ministry "fast track."
Ordination, to the later corps men, became a huge carrot - the ultimate "reward" for many of the men. If you were a natural salesman and schmoozer with strangers and could run 4-5 classes or so a year, you were pretty much guaranteed to be ordained.
Also, if a man married a woman who was already ordained, it was pretty much a given he would be ordained also.
The last women ordained were two in the 7th corps. Then word came down women would not be ordained anymore. I had a friend in the Bronx, a 10th corps grad, who was an amazing woman, ran the Bronx with love and ran class after class after class - more than anyone else probably in the country, for a couple of years. I do believe she had a minstry of an evangelist. She had been told and promised she would be ordained.
I remember at corps corps week when they announced ordinations and she wasn't on the list. She was devastated. She had been told that since the men had risen up, there was no need for women to be ordained anymore.
I saw the change, from fine early corps clergy, men and women who were quite humbled to be ordained, to corruption and pride of some of them (not all -some are still wonderful today) as the years went by, to the later ones who were only in it for the glory of man and status.
Also, note, none of the TWI clergy were considered apostles - they could be all other four ministries, but not apostle - that was reserved alone for VPW.
Well, the point was that a problem became entrenched ... and wasn't dealt with adequately. The bad molesting priests were reassigned, right?. I have no idea what percent it was ... but it certainly did a lot of harm to the catholic church reputation, priests boogering boys is a standing joke. (Even South Park did a show on that) From the stories, it seems it must have been higher than 2%, is that 2% that were removed? From accounts I have read, it seems they had (have?) some serious problems there.
No, the 2% were those who had allegations that were deemed credible. (1800 out of about 110,000 clerics). The vast majority of allegations came forward decades after the abuse occurred. (The vast majority of the abuse occurred in the 60s and 70s. The vast majority of allegations came forward after the scandal made the news with a couple of high profile cases in 2000). Out of those had credible accusations, about 1/4 of the accused were either dead or retired. Another 1/4 were 'laicized.' Another 1/4 were suspended -- still clerics, but unable to exercise any ministry. Another 1/4 were sent for treatment (up through the 80s, it was believed that a person could undergo therapy for this and be cured). Those that had treatment were normally sent to another parish. Only a few of them got away totally scot free. For those who did get away with it and those who enabled them...I agree fully with any disparaging remarks that anybody cares to give them.
Out of that 2%, less than 150 of them dealt with clerics that were "serial abusers." (That's like a net of 0.1%). I am not making an excuse for those who were serial abusers or those who enabled them, but I think it's important to keep it in perspective.
Yes, priests boogering boys has become a standing joke. But unfortunately the story was so juicy that it became like sharks in chum-infested waters after a time. This, coupled with the long-standing policy of not talking about these issues (to avoid promulgating scandal), created the biggest scandal in hundreds of years. I certainly hope they'd learned from their mistakes, but, honestly, I doubt it.
Ok...In deference to jonny lingo, I will say that there were some really fine people ordained by twi...
...As I said in my earlier post, many of these folks felt a calling of God and continue to be faithful to that calling, even to this day. I knew/know many of them.
It's unfortunate that a few bad apples did some real damage to people.
I will take back my statement that most of them should be drop kicked...some of them should be drop kicked, not most of them.
just to clarify, i never said they ALL should be drop-kicked. just that way too many were a**holes. they should've been the best of the best, the cream of the crop. but instead, there was a much higher percentage of d!ckheads than you see in the general population. now, i also had quite a few good friends who were ordained, real good people, but my experience was they were the exception. the simple truth is, only a handful were truly exceptional people. (just like in real life!) the rest were either blowhards who thought their title gave them license to say or do whatever they pleased, or just plain lame. but look who was choosing them, and look at who their examples were. it's amazing that ANY way leader was loving, forgiving, supportive, etc., when you consider what complete bastards vic and craig were. bastards who, for the most part, were tremendously threatened by anyone demonstrating real leadership.
the simple truth is, only a handful were truly exceptional people.
Well, the simple truth is, that your assessment is, is, well, not correct. A handful? I Think Sunesis's synopsis of the deal is quite accurate, and worthy of consideration.
But I will agree that by the time I was ordained, there was so much carnal thinking about it, it was really sad. The night I was ordained (the last time in TWI 1 when the tent almost caved in), I cannot tell you how many of my peers ("friends") were totally perplexed with my being part of that group. One gal came up and said; "Jonny", how come you were ordained? You were only running a Twig Area last year! Are you gonna be the LC of Alaska or something?" Another friend of mine was completely green with envy because he had "undershepherded" me, but then I was ordained and he wasn't. It was amazing to me. While walking into the Big Top with all of the "robed people", I remember one couple (who were already Corps grads way before me) looking at me and his wife pointing at me in a *%^#*ed off manner, and exclaiming;
"You?!" And then looking at her husband with a look of dismay...
Yeah, it was really weird, because there really was so much carnal thinking by this time. I really was thinking; "What doest thou here Elijah?" But amongst our bunch there were some great people, who are still wonderful to this day...
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likeaneagle
It is so saaaad...I think many of us got caught in CROSSFIRE between wars we should of never been subject too.
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J0nny Ling0
I always thought Walter Cumm*ngs was a fine man...David Schm*dt was very kind hearted back when he did the limb of ND....
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
i always thought jim doop was a cool guy and loved god and god's people
so what if he did a joint now and then
i thought him to be a careing person
also bob hannon{sp}
he was a great person period
now let me talk anbout dana arm stong
what a loser
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J0nny Ling0
Oooh! CC, I had a major run in with him (D.A.) only a few years back. But, his brother, S.A. and I remain almost "blood brothers" to this day...
Also, I'd like to see some cocky som bee try and drop kick "Fort Wayne Cl*pp"! Now that guy had/has a heart for God's people!
Ya know, personally, I think that some of the comments on this thread are ph uck ed up. Somebody here said that "most of the clergy were or should be dropped kicked or whatever. Shoot man, that's just bs. What about Rev Socks? Not that he would ever go by that title, but, back in the day, he was a very kind soul. I remember him at the Marin County Civic Center in 1977 when I was there as a WOW, I saw him comitt an act of kindness that was a very nice thing to see...
Point being; There were a lot of "clergy" who were kind and loving people. People who, just like so many of us here who "wanted to make a difference". Drop kick 'em? Sure some were pricks, and I can name a few to be sure, but there were a helluva lot of fine people who were "ordinated" who just wanted to help. David Cral*y is another one who comes to mind. And Dean Ell*nwood, and Claudetteee, among others...
"All ya wanna do is help. All ya wanna do is lend him a hand, spread the good news 'crost the Land...."
(Good Seed)
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dmiller
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Patriot
Johnny Lingo - I agree.
There were some absolutely terrific clergymen and women who really did make a difference! I remember a clergyman who coordinated Military Outreach named P#%l N*rcr*ss, when I was very new to TWI. I met some wonderful folks prior, but that man changed my life and gave me such great vision as to what I could be and do for God! :)
To me, it seems like being clergy is similar to being a politician in a way. Yes, they are in positions of higharchy and authority, but they are supposed to be in those positions for the good of their people.....God's people!
I know that some sought the position because they were an "alpha" type person who wanted the control, honor, and respect. For those people, as Jesus Christ said, they already have their reward. Then there were others, like politicians, who came from humble positions, who wanted so much to just give and serve. For those folks, the FUNCTION meant more than the POSITION. They were the ones who didn't want people cleaning their homes, washing their cars, etc. They were the ones who were just so passionate about having the opportunities to be in the Word and help others with it.
Yes, many of you indeed had some awful experiences with some ego-maniac clergy. Yet let's remember that there were those who did look at their positions as solemn responsibilities before God, and gave of their lives. People like Wayne Cl*pp, J*hn Shr*yer, P**l Norcr*ss, etc. I think that is fair. :)
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ex10
This thread makes me feel really sad, and I have total lump in my throat.
My hubby turned down getting ordained by the way, and later tuned down getting ordained by the Lutherans.
It's not what we want for us and our family. Seems its a lesser calling to be a "lay person."
Too bad, really....
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Patriot
Exxie, there is no lesser calling. We were ALL called to be royalty - sons and daughters of the King of Kings! You and your family, regardless of any outward notariety, are God's elite....not by your works, but because He made you that way in Christ!
I really, really, really believe it!
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dmiller
I don't think so. I've seen *lay people* with more dedication,
and purpose in life, than I have in some *clergy*.
Like someone else said -- titles don't matter.
God looks on the heart. :)
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templelady
the concept "lay person" doesn't exist in scripture --just believers and non-believers
"lay" people are the backbone and muscle of the church--
Where would the clergy be without them???
Sitting on a rock, in the middle of a bare field in a snowstorm, preaching to the trees--that's where
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rhino
Maybe there is an analogy to be made with the "boy love" in the Catholic church. How does that crap become so pervasive? It doesn't get dealt with strongly enough in the church and seems to become accepted in practice. They get reassigned to molest elsewhere.
Same with ego and salesmanship (and adultrous behavior?) being promoted over inspiration and heart. Some good strong men and women no doubt helped many despite the twi structure, but real problems were not dealt with. Of course that would have meant dealing with vp and many at the root, so even for clergy aware of the problem (how many were not aware?), it would have been difficult. But denial and turning a blind eye seemed the order of the day, and that became systemic.
In that respect I hold even those "good guys" accountable, because they lended credibility to the whole charade. If anyone was going to reveal the corruption to the twiggies, it should have been the clergy. I guess it finally was clergy that shed light on the crap ... the very reverend chris geeer.
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markomalley
So let me understand then, you're saying that about 2% of the TWI "clergy" were corrupt? And that 98% were good folks?
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Tom Strange
Rhino... that was kind of "out of left field" wasn't it? I was totally taken by surprise by that comment.
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Tom Strange
Ex10 said:
I think your and your husband's record speaks for itself... maybe God knew His plan for you guys better than TWI or the church leaders...
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pond
I do not see a standard of education for clergy. Most in the churches have at least a masters in theology or conseling , it is needed to help the people with life.
anyone can be ordained . We have to have a license from the state to BE married, it is on file with the state as a legal contract, a licensed clergy or person must do the wedding , for it to be a legal contract and be filed., they must stamp the paper and file it . I believe in most states they can also file a death certificate although it is often done by the funeral director these days. These are some of the legal documents that the state allows them to organize.
otherwise a person is not marriedor dead legaly. some hospitals reguire a clergy license for the clergy to vist intensive care etc.
the clergy in the way was respected more and I think ex10 is right ministers and reverends and those who live for the congregation DO get more honor.
The bible says to give them double honor.. does that mean they have to have a license from the state? Well it is the rules of our country and states.. so yes.
Many folks can be good religous people , but to be ordained is a TITLE earned , and granted by the state to perform certain duties.
Yes I think it makes a difference it shows the dedication of the person to what they belief much like being married or just living together maybe the love is the same but it certainly is regarded ,as more respected, etc.
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rhino
So if that much harm could be done because the church didn't deal with 2% (or 10%), then so much more so with twi. I think this is where the cult mentality came in. People really became blinded to the harm that was being done. It's hard to break out of that cult mentality. And it's not just the sex.
Like I said, a lot did "good" despite the evils, but being ordained was another ego thing to compel one to stay in the cult, and lead others in as well. My stance is that I "rue the day" that I lead anyone into going WOW or going Corps ... anything that subjected these innocent people to twi dogma and twi abuse. Cult leaders are what kept the cult going. We do agree it was a harmful cult, don't we? While women were being led to vp's motorcoach, I was leading fresh meat to the way corps. And it wasn't just that abuse, but the subjection to the whole power structure ... which apparently really blossomed in the '90's.
Good Seed was great, there were some genuine times, especially earlier ... but you have to look at the whole structure.
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markomalley
Pond,
I think you bring back a question that was asked in the original post in this thread: i've noticed that even here, the distinction is made between "leaders" and "clergy," or "corps" and "clergy," as though way ordination was valid. was it?
An interesting thing that one should consider when thinking about TWI ordinations is this: according to the scriptural model (cf Acts 6, 14:22; 1 Ti 5:22), valid ordinations need to be performed by the apostles (or their successors and offshoots, who are validly ordained bishops). All twi ordinations were performed by vp or somebody who vp ordained. Was vp a bishop? Can he trace his ordination lineage back to an apostle? If the answer is no, then it would be questionable as to whether the ordination was scripturally valid or not to begin with.
Please note: this is not to disparage anybody who received a TWI "ordination" one way or the other. Like most on this thread, I believe that a person should be evaluated on individual merit not on the existance or nonexistance of a title bestowed upon the individual, regardless of the validity of that title.
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rhino
No, I wasn't drinking when I wrote that, but it was 5:00 am or so. I feel the same now at 7am. I just think the bigger picture is the clergy was the power structure that was twi. Many good people may have been caught up in that, but if they were part of it and didn't confront abuses ... they should not be proud of that aspect of their twi life. I still get my dander up a little when I sense that being down played. Honestly, we all should have split much earlier as I see it. To not confront was to submit.
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Sunesis
I knew many wonderful fine clergy over the years, including Jonny Lingo, Socks, My3cents, there were some great people.
From my perspective, it seemed almost all in corps 1-4 were pretty much automatically ordained. These people were usually a bit older than me, and had been in the forefront and beginning of TWI in the late '60s, early '70s - they had run many classes before going corps. They were basically the young, youthful leadership who had made TWI's growth happen. I'll also include some 5th in here (Donnie Fugit), they were the last small group that had been with VP their first year at H.Q. and always longed to go back, they hated being in Emporia their last year, us 7th corps were a large sometimes crazy group and the 5th could be very stodgy. I think they thought we were going to hell in a handbasket - we drove them nuts. They were on average about 10 years older - all late '20s, compared to us late teen, early 20 folk.
From about the 6th corps onward, it seemed to me, the rules changed as to who got ordained. It became much more to do with how many classes someone ran, and it got worse as time went on. I know many men who came right out and told me, they would graduate, run classes and get ordained. They were on the ministry "fast track."
Ordination, to the later corps men, became a huge carrot - the ultimate "reward" for many of the men. If you were a natural salesman and schmoozer with strangers and could run 4-5 classes or so a year, you were pretty much guaranteed to be ordained.
Also, if a man married a woman who was already ordained, it was pretty much a given he would be ordained also.
The last women ordained were two in the 7th corps. Then word came down women would not be ordained anymore. I had a friend in the Bronx, a 10th corps grad, who was an amazing woman, ran the Bronx with love and ran class after class after class - more than anyone else probably in the country, for a couple of years. I do believe she had a minstry of an evangelist. She had been told and promised she would be ordained.
I remember at corps corps week when they announced ordinations and she wasn't on the list. She was devastated. She had been told that since the men had risen up, there was no need for women to be ordained anymore.
I saw the change, from fine early corps clergy, men and women who were quite humbled to be ordained, to corruption and pride of some of them (not all -some are still wonderful today) as the years went by, to the later ones who were only in it for the glory of man and status.
Also, note, none of the TWI clergy were considered apostles - they could be all other four ministries, but not apostle - that was reserved alone for VPW.
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markomalley
No, the 2% were those who had allegations that were deemed credible. (1800 out of about 110,000 clerics). The vast majority of allegations came forward decades after the abuse occurred. (The vast majority of the abuse occurred in the 60s and 70s. The vast majority of allegations came forward after the scandal made the news with a couple of high profile cases in 2000). Out of those had credible accusations, about 1/4 of the accused were either dead or retired. Another 1/4 were 'laicized.' Another 1/4 were suspended -- still clerics, but unable to exercise any ministry. Another 1/4 were sent for treatment (up through the 80s, it was believed that a person could undergo therapy for this and be cured). Those that had treatment were normally sent to another parish. Only a few of them got away totally scot free. For those who did get away with it and those who enabled them...I agree fully with any disparaging remarks that anybody cares to give them.
Out of that 2%, less than 150 of them dealt with clerics that were "serial abusers." (That's like a net of 0.1%). I am not making an excuse for those who were serial abusers or those who enabled them, but I think it's important to keep it in perspective.
Yes, priests boogering boys has become a standing joke. But unfortunately the story was so juicy that it became like sharks in chum-infested waters after a time. This, coupled with the long-standing policy of not talking about these issues (to avoid promulgating scandal), created the biggest scandal in hundreds of years. I certainly hope they'd learned from their mistakes, but, honestly, I doubt it.
Anyway, I hope that's enough on the derail.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ok...In deference to jonny lingo, I will say that there were some really fine people ordained by twi...
...As I said in my earlier post, many of these folks felt a calling of God and continue to be faithful to that calling, even to this day. I knew/know many of them.
It's unfortunate that a few bad apples did some real damage to people.
I will take back my statement that most of them should be drop kicked...some of them should be drop kicked, not most of them.
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sprawled out
just to clarify, i never said they ALL should be drop-kicked. just that way too many were a**holes. they should've been the best of the best, the cream of the crop. but instead, there was a much higher percentage of d!ckheads than you see in the general population. now, i also had quite a few good friends who were ordained, real good people, but my experience was they were the exception. the simple truth is, only a handful were truly exceptional people. (just like in real life!) the rest were either blowhards who thought their title gave them license to say or do whatever they pleased, or just plain lame. but look who was choosing them, and look at who their examples were. it's amazing that ANY way leader was loving, forgiving, supportive, etc., when you consider what complete bastards vic and craig were. bastards who, for the most part, were tremendously threatened by anyone demonstrating real leadership.
i'm sorry but it's true.
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J0nny Ling0
Well, the simple truth is, that your assessment is, is, well, not correct. A handful? I Think Sunesis's synopsis of the deal is quite accurate, and worthy of consideration.
But I will agree that by the time I was ordained, there was so much carnal thinking about it, it was really sad. The night I was ordained (the last time in TWI 1 when the tent almost caved in), I cannot tell you how many of my peers ("friends") were totally perplexed with my being part of that group. One gal came up and said; "Jonny", how come you were ordained? You were only running a Twig Area last year! Are you gonna be the LC of Alaska or something?" Another friend of mine was completely green with envy because he had "undershepherded" me, but then I was ordained and he wasn't. It was amazing to me. While walking into the Big Top with all of the "robed people", I remember one couple (who were already Corps grads way before me) looking at me and his wife pointing at me in a *%^#*ed off manner, and exclaiming;
"You?!" And then looking at her husband with a look of dismay...
Yeah, it was really weird, because there really was so much carnal thinking by this time. I really was thinking; "What doest thou here Elijah?" But amongst our bunch there were some great people, who are still wonderful to this day...
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J0nny Ling0
And yeah, how could ya not love Donnie Fugit? I loved that guy, because he loved with the love of God...Sorry he's gone for now...
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