All Nine All the Time

[allan w.]

O.K. Mike , I'm sorry and I repent and humble myself before you. I humbly accept your doctrine, reproof and correction...can I go out and play now ??

[Mike]

Allan,

I'd say (knowing sarcasm when it's THIS obvious) in playing along that maybe you've gone too far into the OTHER extreme.

How about backing half way off the humble acceptance and just dialog as an equal?

But I'd suggest we do it in private, because too many people here don't like BOTH of us. We do agree on a lot. Maybe we could help each other on the manners thing too, because I know I could use some improvement there as well.

And I accept far more than one third of what VPW taught, which I think was the percentage you thought would be acceptable for attending CES.

If I am aiming at becoming an Internet guru I am failing at it spectacularly.

[allan w.]

No thanx !!

[allan w.]

I never did fall for the old...'berate,ridicule someone and then be super nice to them trick' (even back in twi.) !!

[Mike]

How about the steel and velvet method, avoiding use of the word "trick."

Jesus used that one.

When Peter was bucking him he was hard like steel and tough as nails.

Other times Jesus was gentle and forgiving with Peter.

This technique was used and abused at TWI,

with emphasis on the latter in the latter years.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Mike

[templelady]

How about we get back to the question I want answered

Does anyone know if VPW prophesied and If he did what were those prophecies and did any of them come true??

[Mike]

I don't know of any.

But I don't know any of Abraham doing it either.

Might we ask: Did Abraham ever prophesy the future as in foretelling?

Remember the two types of prophesy: fore-telling and forth-telling?

Actually the "I'll teach you My Word as it has not been known since the first century..." seems to have come to pass.

Edited April 3, 2006 by Mike

[Tom Strange]

Remember the two types of prophesy: fore-telling and forth-telling?

Actually the "I'll teach you My Word as it has not been known since the first century..." seems to have come to pass.

not from anyone other than from veepee...

that was his definition...

[allan w.]

Look...I know I'll cop more flak for this, but if you're talking about 'fore-telling' Mo, how about your wonderful Joey Smith ? Did he ever prophesy ? He obviously didn't 'see' the lynch mob coming that strung him up (although he managed to shoot a couple before they grabbed him)

I know you said before in a previous post that as a mormon you are expected to 'witness' your faith wherever possible. It is obvious to me that that is what you are doing, succinctly bringing up these topics so you can then jump in and 'witness your faith'. That's rather dishonest don't you think.

I don't think VP made such a big deal of 'fore-telling' which I believe is a good thing after seeing so much egotism etc.. attached to it in pentecostal churches.

And as far as I know he was never visited by spirit beings like your boy ( however some may say VP WAS regularly visited by the spirit of Jim Beam !!)

[templelady]

Allen dear,

I know you said before in a previous post that as a Mormon you are expected to 'witness' your faith wherever possible. It is obvious to me that that is what you are doing, succinctly bringing up these topics so you can then jump in and 'witness your faith'. That's rather dishonest don't you think

98% of the time that the LDS belief system comes into play it's because you bring it up.

"it is obvious to me" means that you have decided for me what I am thinking and my motivation.

The correct question, for future reference, is "what is your motivation in asking this question?"

Then I respond "I want to know if VPW who proclaimed ALL nine all the time, was able to effectively bring it to fruition in his own life"

We now have a "dialog"

Because you are being much politer I will do you the courtesy of posting on the original LDS thread starting by markomalley the specific prophecy (so as not to disrail this thread) from the Doctrine and Covenants that let me know that Joseph Smith was a true Prophet of God

[allan w.]

...And I'm glad I have btw..because now we have gone from nice 'clean-cut' missionaries doing lawns for anyone (not expecting anything in return) to getting to the 'dark truth' about spirit being visitations and secluded temple ceremonies that promise eternal heaven for LDS married couples etc..

It's good to be 'out in the open' like you bag twi for not being.

I notice also that some of your 'supporters' have been a tad quiet on their views of your spirit-being visitations and more recent temple views, I guess they're just nicer than me !

Edited April 4, 2006 by DooWap

[templelady]

Allen,

I posted what I did to give them facts about my beliefs.

I do not need "support" in order to hold on to my beliefs

I am guessing that what you mean by "supporters" is people who reproved you when you are being rude and nasty because of my beliefs.

Their support as you put it was confined to your behavior and in no way an endorsement of my religion or my belief system

[Belle]

Dude, don't you have anything better to do than follow Mo around bullying her? Jeepers Creeps, get a life, would ya??

Most of us have you on ignore because you post the same crap over and over again and none of it ever contributes to the discussion. You don't want to discuss anything. For some sick reason all you seem to be here for is to attack people with beliefs different from yours and to serve as an example of why not one person would EVER want to attend any kind of church or fellowship with you.

Why DO you post here? What on earth do you hope to accomplish? Life's too short to be so angry, spiteful, mean and tacky.....

If you could actually discuss a topic and stay on the subject instead of spewing your hate, ignorance and illogic, you just might garner some respect from others. As it is you're just an annoying little gnat that we can't seem to swat away.

**********************

NOW, to the topic....

Mo, I can't think of any prophecy from vee pee, nor craiggers for that matter, that ever came to pass.

In fact, craiggers started teaching about how prophecy can change. He went on about that, giving examples and dwelling on it for a long time. I think this was right before he came out with the "revelation" that the WC needed to go back to working the jobs they had given up to be full time TWIt employees.

Edited April 4, 2006 by Belle

[Oakspear]

I do not need "support" in order to hold on to my beliefs

Amen!

I am guessing that what you mean by "supporters" is people who reproved you when you are being rude and nasty because of my beliefs.

Their support as you put it was confined to your behavior and in no way an endorsement of my religion or my belief system

Very true. While I find Mormonism tobe pretty implausible, it's no more implausible that most other beliefs, including mainstream Christianity, and for that matter, my own

[Tom Strange]

...And I'm glad I have btw..because now we have gone from nice 'clean-cut' missionaries doing lawns for anyone (not expecting anything in return) to getting to the 'dark truth' about spirit being visitations and secluded temple ceremonies that promise eternal heaven for LDS married couples etc..

It's good to be 'out in the open' like you bag twi for not being.

I notice also that some of your 'supporters' have been a tad quiet on their views of your spirit-being visitations and more recent temple views, I guess they're just nicer than me !

Allan, weren't YOU the one that brought up the spirit visitations? MO shared on her religion (and usually shares on it) when asked or when there needs to be some point of clarification. She doesn't push anything on anyone... as far as "supporters views" on spirit being visitations... as far as I know we weren't debating that... it was presented in an answer to your question and was not presented as anything else...

NOW... should you really wish to talk to someone about "spirit being visitations" skip over to the Unorthodox thread and take that up with Mike... he seems to have visits with Jesus...

[templelady]

Was there anyone who ever witnessed VPW or lCM heal someone

?

(the Trip to India doesn't count becuase it was pre TWI and none of us were there)

[Bramble]

I have the obsessive stalker of Temple Lady on ignore, but I gather he is still doing his thing.

I suspect that his real beef about Mormons is the fact they continue to grow, and families stick with the Church for generations--grandparents can expect to see their grandkids raised in the Mormon church. While TWI and TWI off shoots are struggling to keep their members, and their kids are evaporating as soon as possible.

Envy.

[allan w.]

Ha Ha ha ha ha Bramble...there are many ex-mormons (just google in ex-LDS or ex-mormon or whatever) and in my travels I come across MANY teenage mormons who have given it the flick because of it's repressive rules. How can anyone live w/out coffee or coca-cola ??!! We also have a number of ex-LDS attending the church we are involved with.

O.K. look everyone.. Most everybody now has an 'inkling' on the basic LDS beliefs without all the 'rose-coloured' clean-cut missionary glasses on.

I will leave the LDS topic alone and go on my next crusade, I promise.

I don't know what my next crusade will be but I might decide after a shot of drambuie and a nice cigar.

And seeing as Mo has exhausted her churches beliefs maybe she won't be 'prosetlysing' (sp.?) so much !!

All the best Mo (and I mean that ).

[Belle]

Well, Mo, there is that one story I read on here about craiggers trying to heal some guy's heart when it was his leg that caused him to fall.

[rhino]

I heard one of them made a blind man lame.

Does that count?

(or was that the pope?)

[Tom Strange]

I heard one of them made a blind man lame.

That's a good one!

[Belle]

Mo,

I'm trying to find that story about craig royally screwing up in trying to heal, but haven't found it yet. I did come across this beauty of a post from Lightside, though:

Good question. I waited years and years to see VPW minister healing after a teaching.....never did.....then......waited years and years to see LCM minister healing......Never happened......See, when your heart is against the knowledge of God,which both VPW and LCM knew their hearts were off, because of sin, they both had no real confidence in God,plus they knew that miracles were gone in their lives, until they repented and walked for God again.

Plus, even a sinner can teach the four crucified or read a book on the day Jesus died and teach it....that is what tricked us.....but the truth is, they had no power or demonstration of the power of the Holy Spirit....God would not allow it.

We were upfront and close to a perfect con game.

vpw Healing

pjroberge:

B.G. Leonard was at corps week and the ROA in 85. Corps people were being ministered to and being healed left and right. B. G. was going to teach at the ROA but LCM was so incensed at the healings that he gave B. G. Leonard, (Wierwille's teacher) the bums rush and wouldn't let him teach...

from the same thread

Linda Z and ex10 also have accounts of vee pee healings.

and OrangeCat (God Bless him whereever he is!):

So we've got 1st hand accounts of cuts and a cold sore. I know this is an informal survey, but that's a tad underwhelming for a ministry that stressed 9 manifestations one of which - if I recall correctly - was healing.

[Belle]

FOUND IT!!!!

It was Ted Ferrell here: craig makes an @$$ out of himself

What Buck is talking about is we were doing a video production at the Rock in 83 and I was on stage doing my thing. And for those of you who have never seen me perform I move around a lot. I get down on my knee's and shake rattle and roll. So here I am doing an up tempo tune and I moved too fast too quickly and my knee gave away and I fall flat on my back in pure agony. It was Craig not VP who comes running up on stage and starts to minister to me for a heart attack. While I am withering there in pain I yelled at Craig it is not my f****** heart you a****** it's my knee. Craig goes Oh! and puts his hands on my knee the good one not the one I had just tore up. So much for revelation huh!

With the help of a couple of guys I hobble back stage and I asked can you wrap this knee with something cause I had one more song to do for video. The only thing that could be found was gray duct tape so they wrapped my leg till I looked like a vent pipe. VP asks me can you go back on stage. I replied yes I am gonna do it. So I go back on but of course this time I am pretty laid back and stand almost still.

It took me about six weeks to get that knee healed up. Don't know if any of you have ever ripped your knee apart but it can be downright painful more so than a broken bone I am told.

[templelady]

So my tally for VPW and LCM so far is running something like this

Word of Wisdom--If they did get it they actually utilized what God said very little, or corrupted it--this is manifested by their fruit

Word of Knowledge- Ditto above-supported by LCM's attempt at healing in a previous post

Faith--I'm sure they did have faith-but in what is sometimes questionable

Gifts of Healing-I think we covered that

Miracles- any miracles VPW claimed were seen only by him usually in the form of snowstorms did anyone ever see him perform a miracle?- see LCM perform a miracle?

Prophecy- Nope

discerning of Spirits- They claimed the power to do this--But I have serious doubts as to the accuracy of their discernment's--was usually a method of attack against their accusers and doubters

Tongues-Maybe

interpretation of tongues-Maybe

on these last two remember that I don't believe in Tongues/Interp as taught in TWI so I think maybe is fair since they could have

IF any one knows of any specific information that would cast my postulations in doubt

please post

Because right now, by my math, we are running at a 33.333% rate of operating the gifts on VPW and LCM's part.

That isn't bad from a non TWI perspective--But following VPW precepts he and LCM must be judged in the context of TWI. And that figure is really sad for men who proclaimed all nine all the time especially when they claimed the title MOG while doing it

[Belle]

Not much of a track record, eh, Mo? I wonder if the folks who are staunch defenders of TWI and those teachings have the same track record.... <_< methinks they do. :ph34r:

So much for leading by example....