Even in the Acts record it looks like a strech his premise for SIT and Interpretation & Prophesy is quote "Because Peter and john were on their way to the temple they must have started the day,hour of prayer. They must have spoken in tongues,they were in a believers meeting with the rest of the apostles,and the other disiples,they must have interpreted and prophesied." A pretty weak case for those manifestations I'd think Maybe they were maybe not.
Chas not sure which Mike you were addressing but I have a set of tapes for the class the transcript someone gave me for a copy of the Acts Corps notes. You can buy the transcript from the Belieze folks.
Even in the Acts record it looks like a strech his premise for SIT and Interpretation & Prophesy is quote "Because Peter and john were on their way to the temple they must have started the day,hour of prayer. They must have spoken in tongues,they were in a believers meeting with the rest of the apostles,and the other disiples,they must have interpreted and prophesied." A pretty weak case for those manifestations I'd think Maybe they were maybe not.
He used that example at the '76 ROA as well, for one of the keynote teachings.
I didn't pay too much attention to that list, because my INITIAL response was
"cute-but he's stretching at best to shoehorn in all 9 there."
Here's my breakdown of manifestation usage in play at the Temple Gate Beautiful:
tongues:
interpretation of tongues:
prophesy:
Not in effect. None of them were mentioned OR implied in the account.
"Where the Word of God is silent, he who speaks is a fool."-vpw.
Word of knowledge: IN USE.
They knew this was the place/time to single him out,
and what to say.
Word of wisdom:
Discerning of spirits:
Not in effect.
believing:
Tough to call. This one is so vaguely "defined", even in the Advanced Class,
that an easier rule of thumb is to use it when the other two "power" manifestations
are NOT named.
In this case, therefore, NOT in use.
The criteria that put it in use here apply just as vaguely to EVERYTHING.
working of miracles:
IN USE.
Supposedly, INSTANT results are miracles. I'll agree with that at the moment.
Since the deliverance was instant, this is in play. QED.
gifts of healings:
IN USE.
The man was healed. (Duh.)
====
So, final tally of all 9 in this account:
THREE out of NINE in use.
That's SIX short of what vpw claimed for the same incident.
Unless we redefine all 9 so vaguely that they're involved with
everything short of pouring milk on your cornflakes,
it seems rather rare for even 5 out of 9 to be in effect at the
same time. So, requiring or expecting it is rather silly.
Being ready to serve God, yes. Expecting
"all nine all the time", no.
Besides, God knows your strengths and weaknesses.
He'll call upon you to do what you are ABLE to do.
Raf, you did well in resisting, much better than did dmiller and templelady.
Excuse me??? All I did was mention tapes vs. written material.
You have a penchant for discounting tapes (oh yea -- they are history)
And lauding to the Heavans the *written word* (pfal) -- as doctrine.
Since you were mentioning tapes (while having castigated a few of us in the past for doing the exact same thing), I just thought I might bring that to your attention, and you say I didn't *resist*?
Resist what? Commenting on your flip-flops?
Straddling a fence will only get you a sore crotch.
I didn't go to Advance class but I do distinctly remember
being told on multiple occasions by leadership and hearing it in classes that
we are to operate all nine all the time
so while walking to work I should be speaking in tongues in my head, interpreting same, be ready to receive a word of wisdom and knowledge, as well as healing the kid with a scraped knee and raising the guy who just keeled over from heart failure from the dead.
In short, If I was really tuned, in I could successfully operate any or all of the nine at a drop of a hat
Pretty overwhelming for someone who had to hunt for the car keys! And I really hate that phrase right up there with "do you want to be blessed"
The reason he could say to him in the name of Jesus of Nazareth,rise up and walk,he had to have had Discerning of Spirits to find out whether this was due ,to the way he was born,whether it was due to devil spirits. That was eliminated,so he had to have word of Knowledge to know the score, Word of Wisdom,then,to know what to do about it. Then he had to have Believing, the manifestation of Believing, to carry it out. He had to believe. Here's a man born this way.God shows him,he can be delivered.
i wonder how possible it is that vp (and those he copied from) was mostly completely wrong about the nature of tongues and most of the rest of the manifestations
that what happened was perhaps very different in most ways
...just wondering if it is possible that we have forgotten how to wonder such things any more
"The reason he could say to him in the name of Jesus of Nazareth,rise up and walk,he had to have had Discerning of Spirits to find out whether this was due ,to the way he was born,whether it was due to devil spirits."
By this logic, discerning of spirits is in use virtually every time
you do something right. Otherwise, how do you know a spirit
isn't trying to actively hinder you?
(Then again, vpw was notably weak on the subject of discerning
of spirits, both in explanation and practice.)
I see this explanation as an attempt to shoehorn the usage
of discerning of spirits into this account. To be equally consistent,
we'd have to shoehorn it into other accounts all over Scripture,
and I find that complicates the accounts needlessly, and inserts
ideas that had no place there.
"That was eliminated,so he had to have word of Knowledge to know the score,"
Since information WAS needed, I agree this was in effect.
"Word of Wisdom,then,to know what to do about it."
No-having the information was ENOUGH.
Word of Wisdom CAN be coupled with Word of Knowledge,
but I see FAR too many people considering them as required
to be used in conjunction with each other.
The textbook example of them being used TOGETHER
was Joseph "interpreting" (yes, interpretations belong to God)
the dreams of Pharaoh.
Word of Knowledge: "the dreams are one-7 years of plenty,
followed by 7 years of famine."
Word of Wisdom: "THEREFORE store 20% of the foods from
the first 7 years to eat in the second 7 years."
Word of Wisdom WITHOUT Word of Knowledge is best
illustrated by Solomon's famous account of the 2 women
who claimed motherhood of the same child. Word of
Knowledge would have just given her identity, but he got
Word of Wisdom instead. (I bet he asked for Word of
Knowledge...)
Most accounts of Word of Knowledge do not NEED Word of
Wisdom to be used in conjunction.
Gahazi: "Messenger from the king!"
Elisha: "Relax-the king's on his way."
"Then he had to have Believing, the manifestation of Believing, to carry it out. He had to believe."
To make this claim means that ALL acts of "believing"
are "the Manifestation of Believing",
which is just plain silly.
Heathens and publicans believe all the time.
Lacking "the spirit of God", they are unable to operate
a "manifestation of the spirit."
This is an AMAZINGLY imprecise and SLOPPY explanation.
It reflects either a casual disregard of the subject,
or a basic MISunderstanding of the subject,
or BOTH. (Probably not both.)
If that's the best reason he can give for invoking
"Believing" as a manifestation here, then it's obvious
it doesn't belong here. Bring it back when you have
an answer that actually WORKS.
"Here's a man born this way.God shows him,he can be delivered."
So, that still puts us at THREE out of NINE.
Word of Knowledge, Working of Miracles, Gifts of Healings.
WD,
Why was your post addressed to me?
Because people are STILL mistaking us for each other.
fwiw, the verse that is in contention with this is 1 cor 12:11 (iirc):
the kjv for this reads:
"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
rsv: "All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."
nasb: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."
It's been a long, long time so my recall on this may not be where it should be, but if IIRC, the vicster said something along the lines that the pronoun "he" (as in "he will") had to refer back to the previous noun (he said "every man"). Then iirc, he said if it wasn't that way, the entire Bible would fall apart, or something along those lines.
Well, the expression "every man" is, in the greek, "ekastos." "Ekastos" is an adjective. (Strong's 1538) -- it means "each."
Using the Vicster's rules of Greek construction, the "he" would have to refer back to "the Spirit" then, as "the Spirit" is the previous noun (otherwise the whole Bible would fall apart, or something like that).
Oh, by the way, the word "he wills" is in fact only one word, as well... "boulomai" (Strong's 1014). It's written in the 3rd person singular, present tense, indicative mood.
So if Vic's interpretation of "all nine all the time" refers to 1 Cor 12:11, he'd be best advised to go back and rework the scriptures a bit...
LOL Raf I have no idea! Guess I read your post as I was typing maybe. Anyway that was his explanation for why all nine were used , he says that there are other records but I don't remember him teaching any other ones to illistrate his point ever it was always this one. I seem to remember All nine all the time as Chas did,so I wonder what was the reason for working so hard to get them all in one record here anyway.
Speaking of vague definitions of manifestations...are the manifestations defined in the bible? Or are the definitions Wierwille uses "private interpretation"? Tongues, Interpretation and Prophecy are laid out in I Corinthians 12 & 14, miracles & gifts of healing can be seen all through the bible, but what about the others?
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
the word in Greek is phanerosis which means manifestation
same word in 2 Corinthians 4:2
2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God
And that is the only two places it is found in the NT
Romans 8:19
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
is the word apokalupsis which means uncovering
1st Corinthians 12
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will
27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
[29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
[30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
Gifts is the word charisma meaning grace, favor, kindness
What I Believe is that they are gifts, when we use them they are a manifested. Manifested being a verb gifts a nun. Manifestation it the result that all can see
IMO by changing them from gifts to manifestations VPW took God out of the equation and put the emphasis on man's efforts and actions.
I think less of Wierwille than and his teachings than most of you, but ...
This slogan.....all nine all the time.....although a catchy phrase, is a falsehood.
Nah! It's just hyperbole. Wierwille never meant it literally. Some of his followers may have taken it literally, but that's their fault, not Wierwille's.
Mo - Not splitting hairs or anything, but isn't that the LDS belief on manifestations, as well? I mean, don't they also teach 'many gifts' - not 'one gift - many manifestations', as we were in TWI?
No.. they among others believe that tongues 'ceased' centuries ago and are not needed today.
Therefore they have a 'problem' sometimes because occasionally newly baptised mormons after receiving the 'new birth' speak in tongues ! However, they are quickly told to 'cease'.
HEY..my names not Mo !!!! (interested in hearing her version though)
VPW is the one who taught it was one Gift ="severally as he will" hence the notion that we could operate all nine all the time --one gift 9 manifestations
There are gifts (plural) of healing because healing is of three kinds, physical, spiritual and emotional each taking a different kind of healing.
The LDS church teaches that their are nine gifts -given as needed to believers as seen in the following teaching (italics mine)
James A. Cullimore, "Gifts of the Spirit," Ensign, Nov. 1974, 27
Among the sure signs of the true church of Christ are the accompanying spiritual gifts. This has always been from the beginning. When the authority of the priesthood has been found on the earth, it is accompanied by the manifestations of spiritual gifts.
During the earthly ministry of the Savior, it is recorded that he "went about all Galilee, … healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." (Matt. 4:23)"And great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all." (Matt. 12:15.) Before the Savior departed from his apostles after his resurrection, "he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:15-18.)
"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people. …
"Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, …
"… and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one." (Acts 5:12, 15-16)
The apostle Paul said to the Corinthian saints:
"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. …
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
"And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." (1 Cor. 12 1, 1-8)And he stated the many gifts of the Spirit.
And unto his church in this dispensation the Savior promised these same gifts. He said:
"Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words; and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe—
"In my name they shall do many wonderful works;
"In my name they shall cast out devils;
"In my name they shall heal the sick;
"In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;
"And the tongue of the dumb shall speak." And so on. (D&C 84: 60-70)
I bear my solemn witness that these gifts are with the Church today. The sick are healed, the eyes of the blind are opened, the ears of the deaf are unstopped, the lame are made to walk. The gift of tongues blesses our missionaries and others the world over. The gifts of wisdom and knowledge are evidenced by the leadership of our people everywhere. Devils are cast out, spirits are discerned, the gift of faith is demonstrated on every side. Many mighty miracles give evidence that this is indeed his church, the church of Jesus Christ. All the gifts and powers and blessings that have always identified Christ's church are with the Church today.
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WhiteDove
Well that's what I thought too Chas
Even in the Acts record it looks like a strech his premise for SIT and Interpretation & Prophesy is quote "Because Peter and john were on their way to the temple they must have started the day,hour of prayer. They must have spoken in tongues,they were in a believers meeting with the rest of the apostles,and the other disiples,they must have interpreted and prophesied." A pretty weak case for those manifestations I'd think Maybe they were maybe not.
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Mike
If anyone wants to see the entire AC segment I can PM it to them. It was a entire hour that Dr spent on "all nine."
Raf, you did well in resisting, much better than did dmiller and templelady.
If any of you want to challenge me on a tangential issue, you know where to find me.
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ChasUFarley
Not to derail this or anything... not that a derailment is new to this thread...
but Mike....
How is it that you have access to the AC like that?
I mean, isn't it copyrighted, protected, etc. and only to be utilized by TWI?
In other words, I didn't think Joe or Mike Believer owned any of it...
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WhiteDove
Chas not sure which Mike you were addressing but I have a set of tapes for the class the transcript someone gave me for a copy of the Acts Corps notes. You can buy the transcript from the Belieze folks.
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WordWolf
He used that example at the '76 ROA as well, for one of the keynote teachings.
I didn't pay too much attention to that list, because my INITIAL response was
"cute-but he's stretching at best to shoehorn in all 9 there."
Here's my breakdown of manifestation usage in play at the Temple Gate Beautiful:
tongues:
interpretation of tongues:
prophesy:
Not in effect. None of them were mentioned OR implied in the account.
"Where the Word of God is silent, he who speaks is a fool."-vpw.
Word of knowledge: IN USE.
They knew this was the place/time to single him out,
and what to say.
Word of wisdom:
Discerning of spirits:
Not in effect.
believing:
Tough to call. This one is so vaguely "defined", even in the Advanced Class,
that an easier rule of thumb is to use it when the other two "power" manifestations
are NOT named.
In this case, therefore, NOT in use.
The criteria that put it in use here apply just as vaguely to EVERYTHING.
working of miracles:
IN USE.
Supposedly, INSTANT results are miracles. I'll agree with that at the moment.
Since the deliverance was instant, this is in play. QED.
gifts of healings:
IN USE.
The man was healed. (Duh.)
====
So, final tally of all 9 in this account:
THREE out of NINE in use.
That's SIX short of what vpw claimed for the same incident.
Unless we redefine all 9 so vaguely that they're involved with
everything short of pouring milk on your cornflakes,
it seems rather rare for even 5 out of 9 to be in effect at the
same time. So, requiring or expecting it is rather silly.
Being ready to serve God, yes. Expecting
"all nine all the time", no.
Besides, God knows your strengths and weaknesses.
He'll call upon you to do what you are ABLE to do.
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dmiller
Excuse me??? All I did was mention tapes vs. written material.
You have a penchant for discounting tapes (oh yea -- they are history)
And lauding to the Heavans the *written word* (pfal) -- as doctrine.
Since you were mentioning tapes (while having castigated a few of us in the past for doing the exact same thing), I just thought I might bring that to your attention, and you say I didn't *resist*?
Resist what? Commenting on your flip-flops?
Straddling a fence will only get you a sore crotch.
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templelady
I didn't go to Advance class but I do distinctly remember
being told on multiple occasions by leadership and hearing it in classes that
we are to operate all nine all the time
so while walking to work I should be speaking in tongues in my head, interpreting same, be ready to receive a word of wisdom and knowledge, as well as healing the kid with a scraped knee and raising the guy who just keeled over from heart failure from the dead.
In short, If I was really tuned, in I could successfully operate any or all of the nine at a drop of a hat
Pretty overwhelming for someone who had to hunt for the car keys! And I really hate that phrase right up there with "do you want to be blessed"
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WhiteDove
Raf from the class he says regarding this
The reason he could say to him in the name of Jesus of Nazareth,rise up and walk,he had to have had Discerning of Spirits to find out whether this was due ,to the way he was born,whether it was due to devil spirits. That was eliminated,so he had to have word of Knowledge to know the score, Word of Wisdom,then,to know what to do about it. Then he had to have Believing, the manifestation of Believing, to carry it out. He had to believe. Here's a man born this way.God shows him,he can be delivered.
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sirguessalot
man o man
trying to stick with the thread a bit
i wonder how possible it is that vp (and those he copied from) was mostly completely wrong about the nature of tongues and most of the rest of the manifestations
that what happened was perhaps very different in most ways
...just wondering if it is possible that we have forgotten how to wonder such things any more
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Raf
WD,
Why was your post addressed to me?
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WordWolf
I presume you meant ME, since I was addressing
his explanation specifically.
"The reason he could say to him in the name of Jesus of Nazareth,rise up and walk,he had to have had Discerning of Spirits to find out whether this was due ,to the way he was born,whether it was due to devil spirits."
By this logic, discerning of spirits is in use virtually every time
you do something right. Otherwise, how do you know a spirit
isn't trying to actively hinder you?
(Then again, vpw was notably weak on the subject of discerning
of spirits, both in explanation and practice.)
I see this explanation as an attempt to shoehorn the usage
of discerning of spirits into this account. To be equally consistent,
we'd have to shoehorn it into other accounts all over Scripture,
and I find that complicates the accounts needlessly, and inserts
ideas that had no place there.
"That was eliminated,so he had to have word of Knowledge to know the score,"
Since information WAS needed, I agree this was in effect.
"Word of Wisdom,then,to know what to do about it."
No-having the information was ENOUGH.
Word of Wisdom CAN be coupled with Word of Knowledge,
but I see FAR too many people considering them as required
to be used in conjunction with each other.
The textbook example of them being used TOGETHER
was Joseph "interpreting" (yes, interpretations belong to God)
the dreams of Pharaoh.
Word of Knowledge: "the dreams are one-7 years of plenty,
followed by 7 years of famine."
Word of Wisdom: "THEREFORE store 20% of the foods from
the first 7 years to eat in the second 7 years."
Word of Wisdom WITHOUT Word of Knowledge is best
illustrated by Solomon's famous account of the 2 women
who claimed motherhood of the same child. Word of
Knowledge would have just given her identity, but he got
Word of Wisdom instead. (I bet he asked for Word of
Knowledge...)
Most accounts of Word of Knowledge do not NEED Word of
Wisdom to be used in conjunction.
Gahazi: "Messenger from the king!"
Elisha: "Relax-the king's on his way."
"Then he had to have Believing, the manifestation of Believing, to carry it out. He had to believe."
To make this claim means that ALL acts of "believing"
are "the Manifestation of Believing",
which is just plain silly.
Heathens and publicans believe all the time.
Lacking "the spirit of God", they are unable to operate
a "manifestation of the spirit."
This is an AMAZINGLY imprecise and SLOPPY explanation.
It reflects either a casual disregard of the subject,
or a basic MISunderstanding of the subject,
or BOTH. (Probably not both.)
If that's the best reason he can give for invoking
"Believing" as a manifestation here, then it's obvious
it doesn't belong here. Bring it back when you have
an answer that actually WORKS.
"Here's a man born this way.God shows him,he can be delivered."
So, that still puts us at THREE out of NINE.
Word of Knowledge, Working of Miracles, Gifts of Healings.
Because people are STILL mistaking us for each other.
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Raf
Good point.
Here's a picture of WordWolf:
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WordWolf
For the record,
I'd like to point out that it's not a RECENT picture...
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markomalley
fwiw, the verse that is in contention with this is 1 cor 12:11 (iirc):
the kjv for this reads:
"But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will."
rsv: "All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills."
nasb: "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills."
It's been a long, long time so my recall on this may not be where it should be, but if IIRC, the vicster said something along the lines that the pronoun "he" (as in "he will") had to refer back to the previous noun (he said "every man"). Then iirc, he said if it wasn't that way, the entire Bible would fall apart, or something along those lines.
Well, the expression "every man" is, in the greek, "ekastos." "Ekastos" is an adjective. (Strong's 1538) -- it means "each."
Using the Vicster's rules of Greek construction, the "he" would have to refer back to "the Spirit" then, as "the Spirit" is the previous noun (otherwise the whole Bible would fall apart, or something like that).
Oh, by the way, the word "he wills" is in fact only one word, as well... "boulomai" (Strong's 1014). It's written in the 3rd person singular, present tense, indicative mood.
So if Vic's interpretation of "all nine all the time" refers to 1 Cor 12:11, he'd be best advised to go back and rework the scriptures a bit...
At least, imho and ymmv.
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WhiteDove
LOL Raf I have no idea! Guess I read your post as I was typing maybe. Anyway that was his explanation for why all nine were used , he says that there are other records but I don't remember him teaching any other ones to illistrate his point ever it was always this one. I seem to remember All nine all the time as Chas did,so I wonder what was the reason for working so hard to get them all in one record here anyway.
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Oakspear
Speaking of vague definitions of manifestations...are the manifestations defined in the bible? Or are the definitions Wierwille uses "private interpretation"? Tongues, Interpretation and Prophecy are laid out in I Corinthians 12 & 14, miracles & gifts of healing can be seen all through the bible, but what about the others?
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
all nine all the time? i don't even know if they are available but if they are all nine all the time is just plain stupid
how can you sit intrepert and do a word of proficy at the same time?
seems to me that would not be decent and in order
just me though
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dmiller
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templelady
I Corinthians 12:7
[7] But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
the word in Greek is phanerosis which means manifestation
same word in 2 Corinthians 4:2
2] But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God
And that is the only two places it is found in the NT
Romans 8:19
[19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
is the word apokalupsis which means uncovering
1st Corinthians 12
[8] For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
[9] To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
[10] To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
[11] But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will
27] Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
[29] Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
[30] Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
[31] But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way
Gifts is the word charisma meaning grace, favor, kindness
What I Believe is that they are gifts, when we use them they are a manifested. Manifested being a verb gifts a nun. Manifestation it the result that all can see
IMO by changing them from gifts to manifestations VPW took God out of the equation and put the emphasis on man's efforts and actions.
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LG
I think less of Wierwille than and his teachings than most of you, but ...
Nah! It's just hyperbole. Wierwille never meant it literally. Some of his followers may have taken it literally, but that's their fault, not Wierwille's.
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ChasUFarley
Mo - Not splitting hairs or anything, but isn't that the LDS belief on manifestations, as well? I mean, don't they also teach 'many gifts' - not 'one gift - many manifestations', as we were in TWI?
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allan w.
No.. they among others believe that tongues 'ceased' centuries ago and are not needed today.
Therefore they have a 'problem' sometimes because occasionally newly baptised mormons after receiving the 'new birth' speak in tongues ! However, they are quickly told to 'cease'.
HEY..my names not Mo !!!! (interested in hearing her version though)
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templelady
Of course it is many gifts,
VPW is the one who taught it was one Gift ="severally as he will" hence the notion that we could operate all nine all the time --one gift 9 manifestations
There are gifts (plural) of healing because healing is of three kinds, physical, spiritual and emotional each taking a different kind of healing.
The LDS church teaches that their are nine gifts -given as needed to believers as seen in the following teaching (italics mine)
James A. Cullimore, "Gifts of the Spirit," Ensign, Nov. 1974, 27
Among the sure signs of the true church of Christ are the accompanying spiritual gifts. This has always been from the beginning. When the authority of the priesthood has been found on the earth, it is accompanied by the manifestations of spiritual gifts.
During the earthly ministry of the Savior, it is recorded that he "went about all Galilee, … healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people." (Matt. 4:23)"And great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all." (Matt. 12:15.) Before the Savior departed from his apostles after his resurrection, "he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (Mark 16:15-18.)
"And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people. …
"Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, …
"… and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one." (Acts 5:12, 15-16)
The apostle Paul said to the Corinthian saints:
"Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. …
"Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
"Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
"And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
"And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
"But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
"For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit." (1 Cor. 12 1, 1-8)And he stated the many gifts of the Spirit.
And unto his church in this dispensation the Savior promised these same gifts. He said:
"Therefore, as I said unto mine apostles I say unto you again, that every soul who believeth on your words; and is baptized by water for the remission of sins, shall receive the Holy Ghost.
"And these signs shall follow them that believe—
"In my name they shall do many wonderful works;
"In my name they shall cast out devils;
"In my name they shall heal the sick;
"In my name they shall open the eyes of the blind, and unstop the ears of the deaf;
"And the tongue of the dumb shall speak." And so on. (D&C 84: 60-70)
I bear my solemn witness that these gifts are with the Church today. The sick are healed, the eyes of the blind are opened, the ears of the deaf are unstopped, the lame are made to walk. The gift of tongues blesses our missionaries and others the world over. The gifts of wisdom and knowledge are evidenced by the leadership of our people everywhere. Devils are cast out, spirits are discerned, the gift of faith is demonstrated on every side. Many mighty miracles give evidence that this is indeed his church, the church of Jesus Christ. All the gifts and powers and blessings that have always identified Christ's church are with the Church today.
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Linda Z
I don't think "all nine all the time" ever was intended to mean that anyone could/should operate all nine all at once. That's just silly. :D
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