I think that because he, in his walk, had gone for many years wanting to manifest. Going to each different revival meeting and seeking out pentecostal ministers to try and explain it to him. To finally find Stiles who could help him, and eventually lead him into SIT. It meant a great deal to him. And became a real focus in his mind and thus in his ministry.
That manifesting over-shadowed other aspects of ministry. Often to the complete neglect of other areas of service.
but I think it was a needed step.
Just as Martin Luther was a needed step. Not a complete answer but a partial step to get us a little further towards a complete fullness of spirituality.
Bullinger was also a great step pushing out there, was he entirely correct? Perhaps not. but he made advances.
Even the first century church did not last a complete generation.
So no ministry can last a complete generation, if it is pushing out to advancing in any one area of the whole. it obviously neglects too many other areas. And eventually collapses into the mainstream.
I grew up as a Baptist, so preachers screwing prostitutes and church Secretaries is fairly common place in my family's experience.
My brothers mostly went Methodist, so church tithe being diverted to pay for guns in South American Contra hands; is also common place.
Skyrider, you make some good points. I knew a few first-time PFAL students over the years who were freaked out by session 12. Honestly, not many (at least not many who expressed it), but some. And judging by the number of posters on GS who now say they think SIT was bologna, perhaps it shouldn't have been presented as something everyone should do in session 12.
I think Galen might be onto why VP emphasized SIT so much--not because he intended SIT in session 12 to be an ambush or a means of manipulation, but because it was something he sought after for so long and thought it should be the pinnacle of the knowledge in the class.
I don't see an agenda behind everything VP did. I know others disagree. Granted, he had his agendas, but I think many things just sort of evolved rather than being part of some big, well-thought-out plan.
When veepee filmed pfal, it consisted of 15 sessions...... the intermediate class stuff and the day Jesus Christ died section were REMOVED from the foundational equation. It didn't work. It was "too much" for the students. Anyone with more knowledge on this........please chime in.
Pfal, as originally filmed, had twelve sessions. Several 1/2 hour segments were later left out:
The Unforgiveable Sin
The Day Jesus Christ Died (with his famous line about breaking their legs 'so they wouldn't run away')
The T.I.P. (Tongues, Interpretation and Prophesy) segment - which included information that was later expanded upon in the Intermediate Class
For a time in the late 70's, the 3 (or maybe 4) session Intermediate class, which was filmed a few years later, was included as part of the PFAL package. I took "the class" in 1978 and took a 15 (or 16) sesssion class that included the later-filmed intermediate.
Galen......yeah, your points are well taken. To wierwille and his quest for tapping this spiritual power, the SIT part was the crescendo.......the icing on the cake sorta speak.
But honestly, in the back of my mind.........whenever vpw did SIT for the audience, it ALWAYS seemed to be like the same......Lo Shanta Mala Kaseto Lo Shanta. Even at PFAL '77 or during my inrez years...... after ALL THOSE YEARS......wierwille's SIT sounded the same. Of course, that's a whole new topic, isn't it??
Oak.....thanks for the input. Yeah, those 1/2 hours segments were dropped from the original version. It helped to streamline a few things and slow down the questions.
Skyrider, you make some good points. I knew a few first-time PFAL students over the years who were freaked out by session 12. Honestly, not many (at least not many who expressed it), but some. And judging by the number of posters on GS who now say they think SIT was bologna, perhaps it shouldn't have been presented as something everyone should do in session 12.
I would venture to say that I sat thru pfal about 25-28 times......maybe more. Some early classes had 12-15 students and later classes in the early 80s had 7-10 students. Lots of people, okay.
Generally, after a couple of months........only two or three pfal grads would stick with twi. Most would just drift away. And, on a few occasions I would have someone who would tell me to my face that they didn't swallow the SIT-stuff from the class. Like it was fabricated jibberish, or something.
And, I did know of a few people who didn't like to be cornered, or coerced. But then......maybe I was too fanatical with da class.
I took the PFAL class knowing about SIT in the 12th session. In fact, wanting to SIT was THE only real reason I took the class. No one would teach me anything about SIT and told me I would have to take the class. (Granted that I was a high school student and could only take a class they could put together in the summer--it took a year and a half before I could take PFAL.)
The irony of it was that I was so shy and petrified to stand up and SIT in front of anyone that I read and re-read the holy spirit book as well as volume 2 of collaterals while taking the class. I spoke in tongues by myself in my room after session 5 or 6---to make sure I could do it before session 12!
The only good thing about it was that I really understood a lot of that material so could lead others into SIT if they wanted--I never made them wait for the class!
When I took PFAL in early 1977 it was 15 sessions, foundational and intermediate. Class sessions were Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, so the first 12 sessions were over in 3 weeks. During the next week, one of the extra days was used to do the day JC died and when Judas hanged himself. Attendance for those was voluntary. The unforgivable sin session was part of foundational PFAL at the time. It was later removed because too many new students became afraid that they themselves might be born of the wrong seed.
In my experience, most new students were quite often exposed to SIT well before ever sitting through the class, and anyone who was freaked out by SIT had probably been tampered with by a church person who told them they'd get possessed if they SIT.
Skyrider, you make some good points. I knew a few first-time PFAL students over the years who were freaked out by session 12. Honestly, not many (at least not many who expressed it), but some. And judging by the number of posters on GS who now say they think SIT was bologna, perhaps it shouldn't have been presented as something everyone should do in session 12.
Let's see..
11 sessions of just absorbing material,
followed by 1 session where DOUBLE the attendance filled the room,
all waiting for you students to suddenly do something.
No performance pressure there. What could anyone possibly be nervous about?
(They must have been indoctrinated against Session 12 by
those evil denominations...)
I would venture to say that I sat thru pfal about 25-28 times......maybe more. Some early classes had 12-15 students and later classes in the early 80s had 7-10 students. Lots of people, okay.
Generally, after a couple of months........only two or three pfal grads would stick with twi. Most would just drift away. And, on a few occasions I would have someone who would tell me to my face that they didn't swallow the SIT-stuff from the class. Like it was fabricated jibberish, or something.
And, I did know of a few people who didn't like to be cornered, or coerced. But then......maybe I was too fanatical with da class.
I didn't sit with a calculator from class to class.
However, I do kn0w that when I took it, the dropoff was right in the class.
We started with 8 students.
7 made it to Session 1.
3 of us made it to Session 12.
There was me, the spouse of someone, and the teen of someone.
(So, me and 2 people who "had" to take it.)
I think one of the others finished the next one around,
and they were in someone's family also.
But the 3 of us who finished, we stuck with it.
====
I am aware that some people took pfal to a point, then quit,
and others finished it, then that was it.
As to the second, they probably saw it as an end in itself.
So, they got what they came for, then left. Fair enough.
I took the PFAL class knowing about SIT in the 12th session. In fact, wanting to SIT was THE only real reason I took the class. No one would teach me anything about SIT and told me I would have to take the class. (Granted that I was a high school student and could only take a class they could put together in the summer--it took a year and a half before I could take PFAL.)
The irony of it was that I was so shy and petrified to stand up and SIT in front of anyone that I read and re-read the holy spirit book as well as volume 2 of collaterals while taking the class. I spoke in tongues by myself in my room after session 5 or 6---to make sure I could do it before session 12!
The only good thing about it was that I really understood a lot of that material so could lead others into SIT if they wanted--I never made them wait for the class!
I'm glad I'm not the first one to bring this up.
Grads of pfal were rather specific-someone could "learn to SIT" in pfal-
and otherwise, NOT AT ALL.
(Although there were some exceptions.)
Most grads, if faced with someone who wanted to SIT, or who they wanted
to have SIT, were all told "you have to take the class."
Thing is, if this was supposed to simulate vpw's search, it failed miserably.
If his own account of this is to be believed, vpw went to the Tulsa
convention, and went away with Stiles for a few hours.
Stiles took him ASIDE, ALONE for a few hours, and PERSONALLY
led him into it.
That's it-no class, no collateral readings.
(Although I expect vpw bought Stiles' book right then.)
That was 1951.
As for pfal, it was almost an entire word-for-word lift, in its original
form, of Leonard's class. That was 1953. The exception was the
leading-people-into-SIT stuff. Leonard's students had that as a
prerequisite for HIS class. This allowed them to focus on other
matters in his class. pfal-originally known as
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today",
had this as the GOAL.
Why add this as the climax of pfal?
A) It turns SIT into a "normative experience".
B) It ties SIT to pfal-and to twi.
C) It gives pfal a dramatic close.
D) It unites the students sociologically thru common experience and ritual.
I don't NECESSARILY see any of those as BAD things,
in and of themselves.
They are SUSPICIOUS when they're kept HIDDEN,
and making them custom almost to the point of law was bad.
(Some people got static for leading people to SIT before Session 12.)
When ritual overtook the needs of the students, that was bad.
I believe that it would have been more honest and spirituallly upfront to have a non-manipulated foundation class. In other words, have a class with say, 10 sessions and set those "worship manifestations" into a whole 'nother class......but be HONEST about it.
I mean.....when I think about it, WHY the coercion, and hype and "ambush" in session 12..??? In all my many years of running pfal, there were MANY STUDENTS WHO SPLIT OUT AFTER THE CLASS and refused to come to another twig fellowship. Why????????????????
Heck, it took wierwille YEARS to come to the point where he desired to speak in tongues. What gave him the "right" to manipulate Christian babes and push them where they weren't ready to go.
Just thinking out loud here.
Any thoughts???? :)
It was the "ambush" in session 12 that turned off my oldest daughter. Of course nobody forwarned her (including me) as it was considered blasphemy to do so. She didn't manifest that day and was so upset that she refused to go to another fellowship after that (nor any other type of service). She felt betrayed by the whole thing and because of this has never wanted to speak in tongues.
As for pfal, it was almost an entire word-for-word lift, in its original
form, of Leonard's class. That was 1953. The exception was the
leading-people-into-SIT stuff. Leonard's students had that as a
prerequisite for HIS class. This allowed them to focus on other
matters in his class. pfal-originally known as
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today",
had this as the GOAL.
Why add this as the climax of pfal?
A) It turns SIT into a "normative experience".
B) It ties SIT to pfal-and to twi.
C) It gives pfal a dramatic close.
D) It unites the students sociologically thru common experience and ritual.
I don't NECESSARILY see any of those as BAD things,
in and of themselves.
They are SUSPICIOUS when they're kept HIDDEN,
and making them custom almost to the point of law was bad.
(Some people got static for leading people to SIT before Session 12.)
When ritual overtook the needs of the students, that was bad.
WW.......some good points added here.
"B) It ites SIT to pfal-and to twi.".........THE class was a one-stop, do-it-all. As the years rolled by, leadership instructed us to remove ourselves from the equation and just let "da class" do it.
It was the "ambush" in session 12 that turned off my oldest daughter. Of course nobody forwarned her (including me) as it was considered blasphemy to do so. She didn't manifest that day and was so upset that she refused to go to another fellowship after that (nor any other type of service). She felt betrayed by the whole thing and because of this has never wanted to speak in tongues.
Moony........exactly! That's my point in starting this thread.
I've seen this.........on a number of occasions. When someone is coerced in Session 12 to SIT.........it seems like an "ambush." There probably are a number of reasons that could be listed, but the point is..... the person is NOT ready or willing to venture into SIT at that point! Then, with the crowd watching and performance pressure mounting......and vp's words "no one gets missed!" glaring in your face.....it's a rather frightening and confusing time for some.
I believe that [/b]a non-manipulated foundational class.....with just basic truths taught would be the better approach. THEN.......have a follow-up class for those who desire to advance into the manifestation area.
Moony, that must have been really hard for you back then, given the pressure of "everyone must do it." My son went through something similar after he took the "new and improved" Intermediate class that came out in the 80s. Because of all the ridiculous man-made "rules" added (e.g., length of the interpretation must be roughly the length of the SIT"), he was so scared he'd be called on in a meeting and screw it up, he stopped going.
Skyrider said:
I believe that a non-manipulated foundational class.....with just basic truths taught would be the better approach. THEN.......have a follow-up class for those who desire to advance into the manifestation area.
Or maybe better yet, just teach about SIT in the small, home fellowships, and if anyone's interested in doing it, answer their questions and help them if they need encouragement.
I no longer believe in the "all nine all the time" that VPW promoted. That approach led to so many failures in "ministering" of healing, and to cookie-cutter tongues, interp., and prohpecy, etc. I now believe different people have different longsuits, spiritually, and to force them all into the same mold only sets them up for self-doubt and dissapointment.
I no longer believe in the "all nine all the time" that VPW promoted. That approach led to so many failures in "ministering" of healing, and to cookie-cutter tongues, interp., and prohpecy, etc. I now believe different people have different longsuits, spiritually, and to force them all into the same mold only sets them up for self-doubt and dissapointment.
Linda, I agree wholeheartedly and that's something I've pretty much always thought despite what TWI taught and expected us to pretend to believe. :) It was obvious to me that these leaders walking around pretending to be oh so spiritual were faking it. But it was the elephant in the room and you couldn't talk about it. As far as we were to know their lives were perfect, they were perfect and, if by some chance they admitted to not being perfect it was because they left their towels on the floor.
As for the Session 12 ambush - HECK YEAH!! - But my experience was really very different from most people. I got involved with some people who had the class on bootleg audio cassettes sitting in a ladies living room at night for an hour at a time. The 12th session was going to be on a Sunday as I listened to the last three hours of the class.
There were a bunch of people there - people I had met at one time or another, but since I had always only listened to the tape by myself or with one of the spouses who were letting me take the class (for free), it was a little disconcerting to have that many people around.
When it got to the SIT part, they all stood up with me and the room exploded into SIT and I was in shock, embarrasssed because they were all watching and waiting for me to "do something". The pressure was incredible. I doubt I spoke in tongues but mumbled something to not let them down. It was incredibly awkward, but now I know they were doing what they had learned from their experiences with PFAL. By the time I took the class with PFAL I knew what to expect and just felt very sorry for the other new students in that class with me.
I always felt weird about session 12 as well...I knew that it was coming, the wow that witnessed to me felped me do it a few days before thank goodness....but I hated it....excellor sessions in the intermediate that was always run immediatly after in those days....
I detected it, always felt phoney with those stupid *games* to improve fluincey...I never felt like it was genuine.
I tried to believe that it was real and that we were something special...and that God was blessing us with awsome communication....but deep inside...it always struck me as contrived and phoney...same old stale message every day year in and year out..
....I the lord your Gawd do indeed incourage...blah de blah.......thppppt I feel dishonest ...like I am making this up stuff and speaking it on God`s behalf <_<
Awwwww.....Geeze....I hated excellor sessions! We used to have them in our fellowship because they felt that some people weren't doing so well. Well, duh! They didn't have the vivid imagination to come up with that stuff and they probably weren't very interested in being good at it, but that was not acceptable.
One guy kept saying things like, "I called you out of the darkness..." and "Though you walk through the darkness of the world...." and T*dd Cenc1ch kept telling the guy he was wrong cause God wouldn't use such dark language in his messages......
I really felt sorry for that guy. He was really trying and was more and more frustrated and embarrassed and not one of us spoke up for him. :( We exchanged glances and rolled eyes, but that's about it.
And, for retention rate in the 90's.....TWI was doing good to hold on to one grad from every class for longer than a month. So many people disappeared right after the class and we never heard from them again...unless they were kids of standing TWIts who didn't have a choice.
I wasn't the model student when I took PFAL, but that might have been because it was done in two weeks, and right at the same time I was getting ready for my senior finals and graduation - high pressure time, you know.
It didn't dawn on me until Session 10 or 11 that we were going to be "lead into manifestation of the gift of holy spirit...." I FREAKED! I'd never heard of speaking in tongues - not that common of a subject in Maine - and especially amongst teenagers. I was also a control freak - I remember thinking, "What if I got it wrong? What if it sounds dumb? I can't do THAT!"
The WOWs were no help - they laughed me off and said, "You'll do great!" You know - a blow off...
So, Session 12 came - and so did a TON of visitors - the acting Limb Coordinator (as our old one had just split) - the Branch Coordinator - and some other guys and gals I'd never seen before....
Oh - Here's another ambush for you - Ladies - How about the first time another women met you with a holy kiss? - I thought I was going to die! (I was sooooo shy and embarrassed for that!)
So, the "you move your teeth, your tongue, your lips," part comes up, and I thought I was going to blow beets - I did not want to be there. The LC saddled up next to me, and started rubbing my back - he meant well - but the pressure was awful. I didn't SIT - I was so frozen in fear, shyness, etc. - I was terrified!
After the session, the LC says, "You did GREAT! I heard you fine!" I wanted to say, "No, you didn't!" but I kept my mouth shut - it really wasn't until a couple of months later - just before the '89 ROA, that I finally SIT.
Fast forward.... several years later....
The Way of Abundance and Power comes out.... we're told that one of the big changes is that students are put on the spot to manifest at the end. No. They have to do that BEFORE the end, and they're set up with a couple of people to help lead them into speaking in tongues....
I thought that was worse, because there's not privacy or anonymity. I heard that if you didn't manifest then, you were kicked out of class - you couldn't complete the class if you didn't SIT, in other words.
How humiliating is that?
Ambushed... good word for how I felt about that experience...
The Way of Abundance and Power comes out.... we're told that one of the big changes is that students are put on the spot to manifest at the end. No. They have to do that BEFORE the end, and they're set up with a couple of people to help lead them into speaking in tongues....
I thought that was worse, because there's not privacy or anonymity. I heard that if you didn't manifest then, you were kicked out of class - you couldn't complete the class if you didn't SIT, in other words.
How humiliating is that?
Ambushed... good word for how I felt about that experience...
Chas.....thanks for sharing your perspective.
Around 1996.....when craiggers was sharing some of this "new and improved" foundational class to us on those corps teachings, he was very excited about moving the SIT session (#12 in pfal) to the 10th session (in WAP). As I remember it, the bod felt it was a good move NOT to end the class on a SIT note (my paraphrase of what craig said).
Once again........the bod sat in their "ivory tower" and made these decisions. They NEVER asked the corps or class coordinators for their imput or suggestions. Guess us little minions didn't know how to think...... just obey the mogfarts. Uuuuuugh
I didn't feel ambushed in the foundational class ONLY because of friend of mine took it before me, and I knew what was going to happen. Besides, I had belonged to a youth group at my church that actually "dabbled" with SIT years previous. So, even though my class was one of those that started with five and dwindled down to me, all alone, when session 12 came I stood right up and SIT with the grads, no problem.
They were SO excited, almost jumping up and down and patting themselves on the back for how confidently I had manifested. Then one of them asked me if I had been nervous. I said, "Oh no, I've spoken in tongues for years now." You should have seen them deflate. I really felt bad that I had told them.
However, when I signed up for the intermediate class the following summer, no one bothered to tell me we were going to have to INTERPRET and PROPHECY!!!!!! I found out in the car on the way to session one. I held it together (barely). I didn't want anyone to know I was completely freaking out inside. I did manage to manifest but I don't know how, since I was shaking and my throat was squeezed so tight I could hardly swallow.
And then, the next day at one of the excellor sessions, the @#$!#$! branch leader called on me to SIT/Interp three times in a row. Here I was, this newbie, already feeling pressured, and he goes and does that. To this day, I have no idea why he did it, but it really upset me, and I could tell it made everyone else in our group uncomfortable as well. People started messing up after that. Somehow I felt responsible, even though I wasn't the one in charge, and I hadn't messed up any of the times he had called on me. Jerk.
...It was common, in my twi experience, to tell people to "practice" sit by "thinking of letters in the alphabet". Alashanta...belino...cantiki...donatos...elephantos..,frankfurtitoes...etc etc etc
By doing this, it would "expand" our vocabulary in the spiritual realm of sit...
...even back then I questioned this...If we are adding to the process with "our understanding", how can it be genuine? I was told not to question it because the mog had approved this technique...
Ambushed? I didn't feel that way. You could see it coming in the last few sessions, and everybody else spoke in tongues, right? SIT was something i wanted to do, i thought it was "cool".
Regarding those excellors "sessions": never thought it made sense. If "the spirit gave the utterance", why would you need to build fluency? Getting more comfortable speaking in tongues out loud? Yeah, I can see that. And that alphabet thing, how can you decide, with your "understanding" what sound each word will start with if God is providing the words?
In later years I would screw around a bit in those sessions. Someone once described my tongue as a cross between a Thai sportscaster and a Klingon. Sometimes when asked to SIT with a specific letter I'd open my mouth and not say anything...get an innocent look on my face a nd say "I guess my tongue doesn't have that sound".
Regarding those excellors "sessions": never thought it made sense. If "the spirit gave the utterance", why would you need to build fluency? Getting more comfortable speaking in tongues out loud? Yeah, I can see that. And that alphabet thing, how can you decide, with your "understanding" what sound each word will start with if God is providing the words?
Oak.....very well said.
Just another area in the pfal-series that had a few holes in it.
Skyrider, I get where you're coming from and agree with you.
I first took PFAL in 1973 at a one-week summer camp off of Long Island.
There you couldn't just get up and leave unless you had a boat. :)
But I loved it, and was expecting every part of it.
I spoke in tongues a few weeks before the class, so for me, it wasn't an ambush at all, it was exhilerating.
But I get what you're saying.
Dr. Wierwille himself dropped in on the very last segment, after we spoke in tongues, and there was this guy who was having a problem. Dr. led him into speaking in tongues right there. And I hope it was genuine, and the guy wasn't just faking it.
BTW, one of my pet peeves about running PFAL classes was having to "set a date", then having to later cancel, because not enough people signed up. I wrote to hq about that.
Yeah I get this. PFAL was way too marketed when it didn't have to be .... heck perhaps folks didn't even have to take it at all if you had a wonderful fellowship like I had.
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Galen
I think that because he, in his walk, had gone for many years wanting to manifest. Going to each different revival meeting and seeking out pentecostal ministers to try and explain it to him. To finally find Stiles who could help him, and eventually lead him into SIT. It meant a great deal to him. And became a real focus in his mind and thus in his ministry.
That manifesting over-shadowed other aspects of ministry. Often to the complete neglect of other areas of service.
but I think it was a needed step.
Just as Martin Luther was a needed step. Not a complete answer but a partial step to get us a little further towards a complete fullness of spirituality.
Bullinger was also a great step pushing out there, was he entirely correct? Perhaps not. but he made advances.
Even the first century church did not last a complete generation.
So no ministry can last a complete generation, if it is pushing out to advancing in any one area of the whole. it obviously neglects too many other areas. And eventually collapses into the mainstream.
I grew up as a Baptist, so preachers screwing prostitutes and church Secretaries is fairly common place in my family's experience.
My brothers mostly went Methodist, so church tithe being diverted to pay for guns in South American Contra hands; is also common place.
:)
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
could his walk of many years seeking to recieve the holy spirit be the same thing as the snow storm?
who can believe him?
not me
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Linda Z
Skyrider, you make some good points. I knew a few first-time PFAL students over the years who were freaked out by session 12. Honestly, not many (at least not many who expressed it), but some. And judging by the number of posters on GS who now say they think SIT was bologna, perhaps it shouldn't have been presented as something everyone should do in session 12.
I think Galen might be onto why VP emphasized SIT so much--not because he intended SIT in session 12 to be an ambush or a means of manipulation, but because it was something he sought after for so long and thought it should be the pinnacle of the knowledge in the class.
I don't see an agenda behind everything VP did. I know others disagree. Granted, he had his agendas, but I think many things just sort of evolved rather than being part of some big, well-thought-out plan.
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Oakspear
For a time in the late 70's, the 3 (or maybe 4) session Intermediate class, which was filmed a few years later, was included as part of the PFAL package. I took "the class" in 1978 and took a 15 (or 16) sesssion class that included the later-filmed intermediate.
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skyrider
Galen......yeah, your points are well taken. To wierwille and his quest for tapping this spiritual power, the SIT part was the crescendo.......the icing on the cake sorta speak.
But honestly, in the back of my mind.........whenever vpw did SIT for the audience, it ALWAYS seemed to be like the same......Lo Shanta Mala Kaseto Lo Shanta. Even at PFAL '77 or during my inrez years...... after ALL THOSE YEARS......wierwille's SIT sounded the same. Of course, that's a whole new topic, isn't it??
Oak.....thanks for the input. Yeah, those 1/2 hours segments were dropped from the original version. It helped to streamline a few things and slow down the questions.
:)
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skyrider
I would venture to say that I sat thru pfal about 25-28 times......maybe more. Some early classes had 12-15 students and later classes in the early 80s had 7-10 students. Lots of people, okay.
Generally, after a couple of months........only two or three pfal grads would stick with twi. Most would just drift away. And, on a few occasions I would have someone who would tell me to my face that they didn't swallow the SIT-stuff from the class. Like it was fabricated jibberish, or something.
And, I did know of a few people who didn't like to be cornered, or coerced. But then......maybe I was too fanatical with da class.
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penguin
I took the PFAL class knowing about SIT in the 12th session. In fact, wanting to SIT was THE only real reason I took the class. No one would teach me anything about SIT and told me I would have to take the class. (Granted that I was a high school student and could only take a class they could put together in the summer--it took a year and a half before I could take PFAL.)
The irony of it was that I was so shy and petrified to stand up and SIT in front of anyone that I read and re-read the holy spirit book as well as volume 2 of collaterals while taking the class. I spoke in tongues by myself in my room after session 5 or 6---to make sure I could do it before session 12!
The only good thing about it was that I really understood a lot of that material so could lead others into SIT if they wanted--I never made them wait for the class!
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johniam
When I took PFAL in early 1977 it was 15 sessions, foundational and intermediate. Class sessions were Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Friday, so the first 12 sessions were over in 3 weeks. During the next week, one of the extra days was used to do the day JC died and when Judas hanged himself. Attendance for those was voluntary. The unforgivable sin session was part of foundational PFAL at the time. It was later removed because too many new students became afraid that they themselves might be born of the wrong seed.
In my experience, most new students were quite often exposed to SIT well before ever sitting through the class, and anyone who was freaked out by SIT had probably been tampered with by a church person who told them they'd get possessed if they SIT.
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WordWolf
Let's see..
11 sessions of just absorbing material,
followed by 1 session where DOUBLE the attendance filled the room,
all waiting for you students to suddenly do something.
No performance pressure there. What could anyone possibly be nervous about?
(They must have been indoctrinated against Session 12 by
those evil denominations...)
I didn't sit with a calculator from class to class.
However, I do kn0w that when I took it, the dropoff was right in the class.
We started with 8 students.
7 made it to Session 1.
3 of us made it to Session 12.
There was me, the spouse of someone, and the teen of someone.
(So, me and 2 people who "had" to take it.)
I think one of the others finished the next one around,
and they were in someone's family also.
But the 3 of us who finished, we stuck with it.
====
I am aware that some people took pfal to a point, then quit,
and others finished it, then that was it.
As to the second, they probably saw it as an end in itself.
So, they got what they came for, then left. Fair enough.
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WordWolf
I'm glad I'm not the first one to bring this up.
Grads of pfal were rather specific-someone could "learn to SIT" in pfal-
and otherwise, NOT AT ALL.
(Although there were some exceptions.)
Most grads, if faced with someone who wanted to SIT, or who they wanted
to have SIT, were all told "you have to take the class."
Thing is, if this was supposed to simulate vpw's search, it failed miserably.
If his own account of this is to be believed, vpw went to the Tulsa
convention, and went away with Stiles for a few hours.
Stiles took him ASIDE, ALONE for a few hours, and PERSONALLY
led him into it.
That's it-no class, no collateral readings.
(Although I expect vpw bought Stiles' book right then.)
That was 1951.
As for pfal, it was almost an entire word-for-word lift, in its original
form, of Leonard's class. That was 1953. The exception was the
leading-people-into-SIT stuff. Leonard's students had that as a
prerequisite for HIS class. This allowed them to focus on other
matters in his class. pfal-originally known as
"Receiving the Holy Spirit Today",
had this as the GOAL.
Why add this as the climax of pfal?
A) It turns SIT into a "normative experience".
B) It ties SIT to pfal-and to twi.
C) It gives pfal a dramatic close.
D) It unites the students sociologically thru common experience and ritual.
I don't NECESSARILY see any of those as BAD things,
in and of themselves.
They are SUSPICIOUS when they're kept HIDDEN,
and making them custom almost to the point of law was bad.
(Some people got static for leading people to SIT before Session 12.)
When ritual overtook the needs of the students, that was bad.
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moony3424
It was the "ambush" in session 12 that turned off my oldest daughter. Of course nobody forwarned her (including me) as it was considered blasphemy to do so. She didn't manifest that day and was so upset that she refused to go to another fellowship after that (nor any other type of service). She felt betrayed by the whole thing and because of this has never wanted to speak in tongues.
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skyrider
WW.......some good points added here.
"B) It ites SIT to pfal-and to twi.".........THE class was a one-stop, do-it-all. As the years rolled by, leadership instructed us to remove ourselves from the equation and just let "da class" do it.
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skyrider
Moony........exactly! That's my point in starting this thread.
I've seen this.........on a number of occasions. When someone is coerced in Session 12 to SIT.........it seems like an "ambush." There probably are a number of reasons that could be listed, but the point is..... the person is NOT ready or willing to venture into SIT at that point! Then, with the crowd watching and performance pressure mounting......and vp's words "no one gets missed!" glaring in your face.....it's a rather frightening and confusing time for some.
I believe that [/b]a non-manipulated foundational class.....with just basic truths taught would be the better approach. THEN.......have a follow-up class for those who desire to advance into the manifestation area.
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Linda Z
Moony, that must have been really hard for you back then, given the pressure of "everyone must do it." My son went through something similar after he took the "new and improved" Intermediate class that came out in the 80s. Because of all the ridiculous man-made "rules" added (e.g., length of the interpretation must be roughly the length of the SIT"), he was so scared he'd be called on in a meeting and screw it up, he stopped going.
Skyrider said:
Or maybe better yet, just teach about SIT in the small, home fellowships, and if anyone's interested in doing it, answer their questions and help them if they need encouragement.
I no longer believe in the "all nine all the time" that VPW promoted. That approach led to so many failures in "ministering" of healing, and to cookie-cutter tongues, interp., and prohpecy, etc. I now believe different people have different longsuits, spiritually, and to force them all into the same mold only sets them up for self-doubt and dissapointment.
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Belle
Linda, I agree wholeheartedly and that's something I've pretty much always thought despite what TWI taught and expected us to pretend to believe. :) It was obvious to me that these leaders walking around pretending to be oh so spiritual were faking it. But it was the elephant in the room and you couldn't talk about it. As far as we were to know their lives were perfect, they were perfect and, if by some chance they admitted to not being perfect it was because they left their towels on the floor.
As for the Session 12 ambush - HECK YEAH!! - But my experience was really very different from most people. I got involved with some people who had the class on bootleg audio cassettes sitting in a ladies living room at night for an hour at a time. The 12th session was going to be on a Sunday as I listened to the last three hours of the class.
There were a bunch of people there - people I had met at one time or another, but since I had always only listened to the tape by myself or with one of the spouses who were letting me take the class (for free), it was a little disconcerting to have that many people around.
When it got to the SIT part, they all stood up with me and the room exploded into SIT and I was in shock, embarrasssed because they were all watching and waiting for me to "do something". The pressure was incredible. I doubt I spoke in tongues but mumbled something to not let them down. It was incredibly awkward, but now I know they were doing what they had learned from their experiences with PFAL. By the time I took the class with PFAL I knew what to expect and just felt very sorry for the other new students in that class with me.
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rascal
I always felt weird about session 12 as well...I knew that it was coming, the wow that witnessed to me felped me do it a few days before thank goodness....but I hated it....excellor sessions in the intermediate that was always run immediatly after in those days....
I detected it, always felt phoney with those stupid *games* to improve fluincey...I never felt like it was genuine.
I tried to believe that it was real and that we were something special...and that God was blessing us with awsome communication....but deep inside...it always struck me as contrived and phoney...same old stale message every day year in and year out..
....I the lord your Gawd do indeed incourage...blah de blah.......thppppt I feel dishonest ...like I am making this up stuff and speaking it on God`s behalf <_<
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Belle
Awwwww.....Geeze....I hated excellor sessions! We used to have them in our fellowship because they felt that some people weren't doing so well. Well, duh! They didn't have the vivid imagination to come up with that stuff and they probably weren't very interested in being good at it, but that was not acceptable.
One guy kept saying things like, "I called you out of the darkness..." and "Though you walk through the darkness of the world...." and T*dd Cenc1ch kept telling the guy he was wrong cause God wouldn't use such dark language in his messages......
I really felt sorry for that guy. He was really trying and was more and more frustrated and embarrassed and not one of us spoke up for him. :( We exchanged glances and rolled eyes, but that's about it.
And, for retention rate in the 90's.....TWI was doing good to hold on to one grad from every class for longer than a month. So many people disappeared right after the class and we never heard from them again...unless they were kids of standing TWIts who didn't have a choice.
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ChasUFarley
Great topic...
I wasn't the model student when I took PFAL, but that might have been because it was done in two weeks, and right at the same time I was getting ready for my senior finals and graduation - high pressure time, you know.
It didn't dawn on me until Session 10 or 11 that we were going to be "lead into manifestation of the gift of holy spirit...." I FREAKED! I'd never heard of speaking in tongues - not that common of a subject in Maine - and especially amongst teenagers. I was also a control freak - I remember thinking, "What if I got it wrong? What if it sounds dumb? I can't do THAT!"
The WOWs were no help - they laughed me off and said, "You'll do great!" You know - a blow off...
So, Session 12 came - and so did a TON of visitors - the acting Limb Coordinator (as our old one had just split) - the Branch Coordinator - and some other guys and gals I'd never seen before....
Oh - Here's another ambush for you - Ladies - How about the first time another women met you with a holy kiss? - I thought I was going to die! (I was sooooo shy and embarrassed for that!)
So, the "you move your teeth, your tongue, your lips," part comes up, and I thought I was going to blow beets - I did not want to be there. The LC saddled up next to me, and started rubbing my back - he meant well - but the pressure was awful. I didn't SIT - I was so frozen in fear, shyness, etc. - I was terrified!
After the session, the LC says, "You did GREAT! I heard you fine!" I wanted to say, "No, you didn't!" but I kept my mouth shut - it really wasn't until a couple of months later - just before the '89 ROA, that I finally SIT.
Fast forward.... several years later....
The Way of Abundance and Power comes out.... we're told that one of the big changes is that students are put on the spot to manifest at the end. No. They have to do that BEFORE the end, and they're set up with a couple of people to help lead them into speaking in tongues....
I thought that was worse, because there's not privacy or anonymity. I heard that if you didn't manifest then, you were kicked out of class - you couldn't complete the class if you didn't SIT, in other words.
How humiliating is that?
Ambushed... good word for how I felt about that experience...
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skyrider
Chas.....thanks for sharing your perspective.
Around 1996.....when craiggers was sharing some of this "new and improved" foundational class to us on those corps teachings, he was very excited about moving the SIT session (#12 in pfal) to the 10th session (in WAP). As I remember it, the bod felt it was a good move NOT to end the class on a SIT note (my paraphrase of what craig said).
Once again........the bod sat in their "ivory tower" and made these decisions. They NEVER asked the corps or class coordinators for their imput or suggestions. Guess us little minions didn't know how to think...... just obey the mogfarts. Uuuuuugh
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TheHighWay
I didn't feel ambushed in the foundational class ONLY because of friend of mine took it before me, and I knew what was going to happen. Besides, I had belonged to a youth group at my church that actually "dabbled" with SIT years previous. So, even though my class was one of those that started with five and dwindled down to me, all alone, when session 12 came I stood right up and SIT with the grads, no problem.
They were SO excited, almost jumping up and down and patting themselves on the back for how confidently I had manifested. Then one of them asked me if I had been nervous. I said, "Oh no, I've spoken in tongues for years now." You should have seen them deflate. I really felt bad that I had told them.
However, when I signed up for the intermediate class the following summer, no one bothered to tell me we were going to have to INTERPRET and PROPHECY!!!!!! I found out in the car on the way to session one. I held it together (barely). I didn't want anyone to know I was completely freaking out inside. I did manage to manifest but I don't know how, since I was shaking and my throat was squeezed so tight I could hardly swallow.
And then, the next day at one of the excellor sessions, the @#$!#$! branch leader called on me to SIT/Interp three times in a row. Here I was, this newbie, already feeling pressured, and he goes and does that. To this day, I have no idea why he did it, but it really upset me, and I could tell it made everyone else in our group uncomfortable as well. People started messing up after that. Somehow I felt responsible, even though I wasn't the one in charge, and I hadn't messed up any of the times he had called on me. Jerk.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...It was common, in my twi experience, to tell people to "practice" sit by "thinking of letters in the alphabet". Alashanta...belino...cantiki...donatos...elephantos..,frankfurtitoes...etc etc etc
By doing this, it would "expand" our vocabulary in the spiritual realm of sit...
...even back then I questioned this...If we are adding to the process with "our understanding", how can it be genuine? I was told not to question it because the mog had approved this technique...
...What a crock of horse sh it...
The whole thing was phoney in my opinion.
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Oakspear
Ambushed? I didn't feel that way. You could see it coming in the last few sessions, and everybody else spoke in tongues, right? SIT was something i wanted to do, i thought it was "cool".
Regarding those excellors "sessions": never thought it made sense. If "the spirit gave the utterance", why would you need to build fluency? Getting more comfortable speaking in tongues out loud? Yeah, I can see that. And that alphabet thing, how can you decide, with your "understanding" what sound each word will start with if God is providing the words?
In later years I would screw around a bit in those sessions. Someone once described my tongue as a cross between a Thai sportscaster and a Klingon. Sometimes when asked to SIT with a specific letter I'd open my mouth and not say anything...get an innocent look on my face a nd say "I guess my tongue doesn't have that sound".
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skyrider
Oak.....very well said.
Just another area in the pfal-series that had a few holes in it.
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oldiesman
Skyrider, I get where you're coming from and agree with you.
I first took PFAL in 1973 at a one-week summer camp off of Long Island.
There you couldn't just get up and leave unless you had a boat. :)
But I loved it, and was expecting every part of it.
I spoke in tongues a few weeks before the class, so for me, it wasn't an ambush at all, it was exhilerating.
But I get what you're saying.
Dr. Wierwille himself dropped in on the very last segment, after we spoke in tongues, and there was this guy who was having a problem. Dr. led him into speaking in tongues right there. And I hope it was genuine, and the guy wasn't just faking it.
BTW, one of my pet peeves about running PFAL classes was having to "set a date", then having to later cancel, because not enough people signed up. I wrote to hq about that.
Yeah I get this. PFAL was way too marketed when it didn't have to be .... heck perhaps folks didn't even have to take it at all if you had a wonderful fellowship like I had.
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