Yet TWI proved you could have church in the home without the financial backing of a denomination. They were so successful that the churches HAD to notice and give respect. Yeah, their lip service was "It's a cult! Run for it!", but they changed with the times didn't they? Having been in a few churches since leaving TWI, I'd say they've lightened up on the hell stuff quite a bit.
Why shouldn't anyone be attracted to an offshoot of TWI?
TWI did NOT invent the concept of home fellowships. In the 60s and into the early 70s there were many,many spiritual groups and alternative religions who met in homes, community centers, and public parks. There were also those groups who travelled the country and used whatever was there to hold services or meetings. In fact it was from of these groups that I fiirst learned about SIT
this was LONG before I ever heard of TWI or PFAL. If anything TWI benefitted greatly from this spirit of the 60s because many of us , who were accustomed to informal meetings, felt at home at Twig because we had experienced it many times before albeit with other groups. TWI was just one of MANY groups who employed the home fellowship idea so I don't see why you seek to give TWI credit for this concept. Most of the 60s groups met informally because of lack of finances. TWI had/has lots of money but was too damn cheap to invest in anything except HQ and other key properties. Seems to me that TWI got to be VERY organized but wanted followers to continue to live as they did when they were young - stacked 4 to an apartment, moving every 2 years. driving crappy cars. And all this so people could financially support HQ. Money flowed into HQ but not back out.
Actually if the home fellowship idea was supposedly perfected by TWI why is it now that they claim around 4,000 "standing members" when in
times past the numbers were much,much larger ? Maybe, just maybe if TWI had decided to devote some of the money it had towards serving
the body instead of the trustees then things might have been different.
JohnIam, I'm glad you found a place where you and your family are happy and getting what you need and want out of fellowship. It really does take some work sometimes to find that fit that seems "just right". I was so disappointed in the Baptist churches I visited when I first started looking. One of the ministers sounded just like craiggers....gave me the heebie jeebies and if I hadn't been in the middle of the middle pew I would have gotten up and left. Come to think of it....I wish I had.
No, I never saw the apologies, but I will go look for them now. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate it. :)
Concerning the Geerite spinoffs I have a pressing question. Why no websites or Internet presence by CG and some of the other CG affiliates? Something to hide perhaps? Afraid of what might be posted about you?
It's very telling in my opinion.
If you ever read his series of articles on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber-Realities you would see why he does not have a website :blink:
If you ever read his series of articles on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber-Realities you would see why he does not have a website :blink:
well WD... why don't you give us a recap of it or quote it or give us a link (instead of just throwing it out there and rolling your eyes)? If it answers the question that would be a big help... I know I'm curious, help a brother out...
quote: No johnuare... it's a foolish question because it is... just like "somebody once asked Donnie Fugit "JEEEZUS didn't have a motorcoach. Why does VP have one?" IS ALSO A FOOLISH QUESTION.
If a question is foolish it just is.
Using the logic of the question you pose ("Did Jesus have a website? or Paul?") I could easily ask "Did Jesus use a PA system? a CD burner? a tape recorder?" ...it's just foolish.
Back in the day they used whatever means were available to them... in these modern times what quicker, better way is there to disseminate information than the internet?
Tom: Thank you for at least being consistent. Some GSers might feel that asking why VP had a motorcoach is a good question. Donnie just rolled his eyes and asked sarcastically "Did Jesus drive a car?" But if Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther got along without a website, so could anybody. You still haven't answered why CG is somehow obligated to have a website, as Igotout implied, and what it tells that he doesn't have one.
Diazbro: I didn't say that TWI invented or perfected home fellowships. No human can perfect anything. In my response to Linda I concurred that TWI did not originate home fellowships, but that they had committed themselves to them (put all their eggs in that basket) and I personally don't know of any group the size TWI was that got that big AND committed to home fellowships like TWI did. I didn't follow Christian trends before getting into TWI. I had very limited exposure to Christianity, so it doesn't surprise me to hear there were home fellowships all over; just that as I said, I personally never heard of an organized home fellowship style group anywhere near as big as TWI was. Comparing the 70s TWI to today's TWI is to me as though a butterfly morphed into a slug.
Tom the whole thing is easily 30 pages or so but it starts out with scripture references and teaching on freedom of will and how God does not overstep ours. He then applies that as a background to the field of computers. Some highlights
"I am careful to try to evaluate whether computer software is operating simply as a tool or whether it might be seeking to affect my free will."
" I had felt for some time that there were mental influences in the programming of software that struck me as not simply being casually manipulative but rather as being actively manipulative"
"I felt that there had to be a more active design to their intrusive and/or manipulative nature. Then I was given an article to read which spoke about how witches,wizards,warlocks and others involved either directly or indirectly with the operation of power which was derived from God's arch-enemy, the devil had actively sought out positions in software development, and programming and were using those positions to affect, and maybe even effect, the thinking patterns of the users of the software."
"Secondly the more indirect implication has to do with the increasing introduction of terms associated with God's arch-enemy the devil,into the field. I really try to use the word symbol rather than the word icon, although the later has become more and more the selected term of preference. Historically the word icon bears a meaning of a religious image or idol"
If you google chris geer you get no glowing reports.
The article he read must have been about fantasy gamers, because 'wizard' and 'warlock' are not used in the pagan community that I've ever heard about. In fact, warlock is an insult.
I'll just throw my stuff in bold as there are a couple of things to address:
Tom: Thank you for at least being consistent. Some GSers might feel that asking why VP had a motorcoach is a good question. Donnie just rolled his eyes and asked sarcastically "Did Jesus drive a car?"
Well of course I'd be consistent about this... it just makes sense to me.
But if Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther got along without a website, so could anybody.
Sure they could, I'm not saying it's 'required', I'm just saying that in this 'information age' the quickest and most efficient way to dissemenate information is via the internet... and I think they would avail themselves of whatever technology was available (as I'm sure they did in their time).
You still haven't answered why CG is somehow obligated to have a website, as Igotout implied, and what it tells that he doesn't have one.
I can't speak for what HegotHope may or may not have implied. I can only say that it wasn't my take that he felt CG was 'obligated'... I took it as wondering 'why doesn't he have one? It would make sense...' at least it would to me, and that's how I took it. If I thought he "implied" anything, it was that the reason CG didn't have a website was out of fear... but that too is my take.
I have answered this already having read WD's response as to why CG doesn't have a site... I'll address that in a seperate post (unless the board puts them together).
If you google chris geer you get no glowing reports.
The article he read must have been about fantasy gamers, because 'wizard' and 'warlock' are not used in the pagan community that I've ever heard about. In fact, warlock is an insult.
I'll take your word for it Bramble! :) Those are words used in TWI... it's just semantics...
"I am careful to try to evaluate whether computer software is operating simply as a tool or whether it might be seeking to affect my free will."
" I had felt for some time that there were mental influences in the programming of software that struck me as not simply being casually manipulative but rather as being actively manipulative"
I felt that there had to be a more active design to their intrusive and/or manipulative nature. Then I was given an article to read which spoke about how witches,wizards,warlocks and others involved either directly or indirectly with the operation of power which was derived from God's arch-enemy, the devil had actively sought out positions in software development, and programming and were using those positions to affect, and maybe even effect, the thinking patterns of the users of the software.
It's hard for me to tell if your entire post is CG's 'thoughts' or if all of it is CG's except the last section which is yours so I'll just address it...
IMO his arguments don't make sense. Of course, he's entitled to his opinions but IMO if this post really reflects his opinions it certainly does sound like he's dealing from a position of fear, not power.
Did he (or the person who typed this treatise for him) do it on a manual typewriter? If they used a word processer how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
Do they keep their books in old fashioned hardbound ledger books or do they use financial software? If they use some sort of spreadsheet program or financial software how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
I guess they don't use online banking, or accept donations via credit or debit cards either because how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
For their publishing do they only use old fashioned printing presses? Else how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
I could go on but I think you get my drift...
For him to say that is his reasoning just doesn't stand up... unless he's not using nor allowing to be used any computers or software... because how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
That's why I don't believe that is the reason he's not on the internet... I'd find it much easier to believe him if he just simply said "because I don't want to"... but then someone somewhere would ask "why not"?
Secondly the more indirect implication has to do with the increasing introduction of terms associated with God's arch-enemy the devil,into the field. I really try to use the word symbol rather than the word icon, although the later has become more and more the selected term of preference. Historically the word icon bears a meaning of a religious image or idol
For ALL time, some words have had multiple meanings. To not use computer terms because one of their meanings might have been associated with El Diablo is just plain goofy in my opinion. I would certainly think God would know that one wasn't blaspheming just because the word "icon" was used, don't you? If for no other reason than because, after all, doesn't God look upon the heart?
I don't mean any disrespect, but if what you posted is the gist of his "stance" on the internet, it seems to be more of a "boogie man" defense... not a position of power... either that or he just doesn't want an internet presence because he's afraid of the exposure. At least that's my take on it...
...Of course Geer's position of modern technology being evil is not new...the Amish folks think automobiles are evil and still get around in their horse drawn carriages...
...I don't suppose Geer would agree with that one, seeing he was the "bus driving pimp"...
Sorry Tom I added the quotations for you in the last set of quotes. They are all from the articles. Not mine.
Hey you asked if I would post some so I dug it out and did. It is what it is I offer no comment either way. There is a section where he discusses computers as tools and what he does to disable the wizards and such so that they are usable for him. Like I said I was only offering some reasons which you asked for as to why I think he will not be having a website.anytime soon. Just my opinion /guess from reading his material.
In my home town in NY the amish children take the public school bus.. the hills are to difficult to navigate safetly in the winter with a horse and buggy.
Also my sister and her boyfriend own a very successful company with a fleet of over forty vans and cars.. in Penn.
what do they do you aks? they drive Amish all over the nation and states to go where they want to go. shoping in NYC, the mental hospitals, vacations on the ocean they travel a great deal . My sister takes fifty of them everyday to job sites.
taxi for the amish is a big business. Many think they live a queit secluded life NO they do not they are all over the place. and they go in vans and airplaines and aything eles they would like.
I guess they are not sinning by paying big bucks to be driven , to where ever they need or want to go.
I wonder if they think it is just the driving that is sin , many own cars and vans but will hire people to drive them .
to me it seems very much a hyprocrit, but hey my sister does very well by it, for across country or to vacatins my sister gets all her travel expenses paid. she like the job.
Sorry...didn't mean to take this thread by mentioning the Amish folks...
Success of the Offshoots?...
...It seems to me that there was a drastic change in "recruitment practices" when twi split apart and the offshoots began. Twi was always targeting new people...the offshoots usually went after old twiers...Guys like JL, CG VF, etc etc etc, had spent years building their reputation and their following within twi...I guess they thought it was easier to grab folks who already knew them rather than to go after new folks who didn't know how "spiritual" they were.
Of course, the downside was that they had a definite ceiling on the number of folks they could get into their group...and of course, the old twiers carried a lot of "baggage" into the splinter group with them...
Without a plan to recruit fresh blood, their future is both limited and stagnant.
Sorry to continue the Amish derail, but Rhino asked where they get the big bucks.
My impression is that the Amish get their big bucks by having lots of land, handed down generation to generation, and by being good businessmen and being thrifty. If the money's coming in and you have no mortgate, no automobile expenses, no clothing expenses (I think the women make all the clothes), the money can pile up. The Amish aren't big consumers like the rest of us, so what they make, they mostly keep and can invest in more land.
When I was at the Indiana Campus, I often heard about the big Amish auction place in Shipshewana. There were Amish restaurants in that area that always had a line out the door...I've seen that in Pennsylvania, too.
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diazbro
TWI did NOT invent the concept of home fellowships. In the 60s and into the early 70s there were many,many spiritual groups and alternative religions who met in homes, community centers, and public parks. There were also those groups who travelled the country and used whatever was there to hold services or meetings. In fact it was from of these groups that I fiirst learned about SIT
this was LONG before I ever heard of TWI or PFAL. If anything TWI benefitted greatly from this spirit of the 60s because many of us , who were accustomed to informal meetings, felt at home at Twig because we had experienced it many times before albeit with other groups. TWI was just one of MANY groups who employed the home fellowship idea so I don't see why you seek to give TWI credit for this concept. Most of the 60s groups met informally because of lack of finances. TWI had/has lots of money but was too damn cheap to invest in anything except HQ and other key properties. Seems to me that TWI got to be VERY organized but wanted followers to continue to live as they did when they were young - stacked 4 to an apartment, moving every 2 years. driving crappy cars. And all this so people could financially support HQ. Money flowed into HQ but not back out.
Actually if the home fellowship idea was supposedly perfected by TWI why is it now that they claim around 4,000 "standing members" when in
times past the numbers were much,much larger ? Maybe, just maybe if TWI had decided to devote some of the money it had towards serving
the body instead of the trustees then things might have been different.
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Belle
JohnIam, I'm glad you found a place where you and your family are happy and getting what you need and want out of fellowship. It really does take some work sometimes to find that fit that seems "just right". I was so disappointed in the Baptist churches I visited when I first started looking. One of the ministers sounded just like craiggers....gave me the heebie jeebies and if I hadn't been in the middle of the middle pew I would have gotten up and left. Come to think of it....I wish I had.
No, I never saw the apologies, but I will go look for them now. Thank you. I sincerely appreciate it. :)
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WhiteDove
If you ever read his series of articles on A Biblical Perspective on Computers, Electronic Learning and Cyber-Realities you would see why he does not have a website :blink:
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Tom Strange
well WD... why don't you give us a recap of it or quote it or give us a link (instead of just throwing it out there and rolling your eyes)? If it answers the question that would be a big help... I know I'm curious, help a brother out...
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johniam
quote: No johnuare... it's a foolish question because it is... just like "somebody once asked Donnie Fugit "JEEEZUS didn't have a motorcoach. Why does VP have one?" IS ALSO A FOOLISH QUESTION.
If a question is foolish it just is.
Using the logic of the question you pose ("Did Jesus have a website? or Paul?") I could easily ask "Did Jesus use a PA system? a CD burner? a tape recorder?" ...it's just foolish.
Back in the day they used whatever means were available to them... in these modern times what quicker, better way is there to disseminate information than the internet?
Tom: Thank you for at least being consistent. Some GSers might feel that asking why VP had a motorcoach is a good question. Donnie just rolled his eyes and asked sarcastically "Did Jesus drive a car?" But if Jesus or Paul or Martin Luther got along without a website, so could anybody. You still haven't answered why CG is somehow obligated to have a website, as Igotout implied, and what it tells that he doesn't have one.
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johniam
Diazbro: I didn't say that TWI invented or perfected home fellowships. No human can perfect anything. In my response to Linda I concurred that TWI did not originate home fellowships, but that they had committed themselves to them (put all their eggs in that basket) and I personally don't know of any group the size TWI was that got that big AND committed to home fellowships like TWI did. I didn't follow Christian trends before getting into TWI. I had very limited exposure to Christianity, so it doesn't surprise me to hear there were home fellowships all over; just that as I said, I personally never heard of an organized home fellowship style group anywhere near as big as TWI was. Comparing the 70s TWI to today's TWI is to me as though a butterfly morphed into a slug.
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igotout
Would Jesus have a web site. Ha!
Yeah, Geery has a lot to hide.
No publicity for him. Evil Internet. Satan's technolocy.
Ha! Sounds like when LCM was telling us to stay off the Internet.....right before Waydale.
C'mon, get real. He's layin low. Can't say as I blame him.
Beloved as he is.
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dmiller
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WhiteDove
Tom the whole thing is easily 30 pages or so but it starts out with scripture references and teaching on freedom of will and how God does not overstep ours. He then applies that as a background to the field of computers. Some highlights
"I am careful to try to evaluate whether computer software is operating simply as a tool or whether it might be seeking to affect my free will."
" I had felt for some time that there were mental influences in the programming of software that struck me as not simply being casually manipulative but rather as being actively manipulative"
"I felt that there had to be a more active design to their intrusive and/or manipulative nature. Then I was given an article to read which spoke about how witches,wizards,warlocks and others involved either directly or indirectly with the operation of power which was derived from God's arch-enemy, the devil had actively sought out positions in software development, and programming and were using those positions to affect, and maybe even effect, the thinking patterns of the users of the software."
"Secondly the more indirect implication has to do with the increasing introduction of terms associated with God's arch-enemy the devil,into the field. I really try to use the word symbol rather than the word icon, although the later has become more and more the selected term of preference. Historically the word icon bears a meaning of a religious image or idol"
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Bramble
If you google chris geer you get no glowing reports.
The article he read must have been about fantasy gamers, because 'wizard' and 'warlock' are not used in the pagan community that I've ever heard about. In fact, warlock is an insult.
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Tom Strange
I'll just throw my stuff in bold as there are a couple of things to address:
I have answered this already having read WD's response as to why CG doesn't have a site... I'll address that in a seperate post (unless the board puts them together).
I'll take your word for it Bramble! :) Those are words used in TWI... it's just semantics...
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dmiller
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Tom Strange
White Dove,
It's hard for me to tell if your entire post is CG's 'thoughts' or if all of it is CG's except the last section which is yours so I'll just address it...
IMO his arguments don't make sense. Of course, he's entitled to his opinions but IMO if this post really reflects his opinions it certainly does sound like he's dealing from a position of fear, not power.
Did he (or the person who typed this treatise for him) do it on a manual typewriter? If they used a word processer how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
Do they keep their books in old fashioned hardbound ledger books or do they use financial software? If they use some sort of spreadsheet program or financial software how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
I guess they don't use online banking, or accept donations via credit or debit cards either because how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
For their publishing do they only use old fashioned printing presses? Else how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
I could go on but I think you get my drift...
For him to say that is his reasoning just doesn't stand up... unless he's not using nor allowing to be used any computers or software... because how do they know the programmer who wrote that software wasn't one of the evil ones?
That's why I don't believe that is the reason he's not on the internet... I'd find it much easier to believe him if he just simply said "because I don't want to"... but then someone somewhere would ask "why not"?
For ALL time, some words have had multiple meanings. To not use computer terms because one of their meanings might have been associated with El Diablo is just plain goofy in my opinion. I would certainly think God would know that one wasn't blaspheming just because the word "icon" was used, don't you? If for no other reason than because, after all, doesn't God look upon the heart?
I don't mean any disrespect, but if what you posted is the gist of his "stance" on the internet, it seems to be more of a "boogie man" defense... not a position of power... either that or he just doesn't want an internet presence because he's afraid of the exposure. At least that's my take on it...
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GrouchoMarxJr
...Of course Geer's position of modern technology being evil is not new...the Amish folks think automobiles are evil and still get around in their horse drawn carriages...
...I don't suppose Geer would agree with that one, seeing he was the "bus driving pimp"...
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dmiller
Did he have one of these, on the back of his bus?
;)
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WhiteDove
Sorry Tom I added the quotations for you in the last set of quotes. They are all from the articles. Not mine.
Hey you asked if I would post some so I dug it out and did. It is what it is I offer no comment either way. There is a section where he discusses computers as tools and what he does to disable the wizards and such so that they are usable for him. Like I said I was only offering some reasons which you asked for as to why I think he will not be having a website.anytime soon. Just my opinion /guess from reading his material.
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pond
In my home town in NY the amish children take the public school bus.. the hills are to difficult to navigate safetly in the winter with a horse and buggy.
Also my sister and her boyfriend own a very successful company with a fleet of over forty vans and cars.. in Penn.
what do they do you aks? they drive Amish all over the nation and states to go where they want to go. shoping in NYC, the mental hospitals, vacations on the ocean they travel a great deal . My sister takes fifty of them everyday to job sites.
taxi for the amish is a big business. Many think they live a queit secluded life NO they do not they are all over the place. and they go in vans and airplaines and aything eles they would like.
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CM
well if it applies to technology
then it should apply to everything else
like the clothes we wear
i think the guy who made a pair of jeans i had was evil
it shrunk up way too fast from washing
in that evil washing machine
and drying on that evil clothesline
The crotch of them became WAY too tight
had to throw them away
and pray and rebuke all the evil they brought to my house
which was built with evil tools
but it's a nice house
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justloafing
This is what the bus driving pimp should have driven.
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pond
I guess they are not sinning by paying big bucks to be driven , to where ever they need or want to go.
I wonder if they think it is just the driving that is sin , many own cars and vans but will hire people to drive them .
to me it seems very much a hyprocrit, but hey my sister does very well by it, for across country or to vacatins my sister gets all her travel expenses paid. she like the job.
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coolchef1248 @adelphia.net
pond good for you sis!
i guess those folks are just as cookoo as geer
he sure sounds like a nut case to me
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rhino
I wonder where they get the big bucks? Maybe there is a big market out east for craftsmen. I see them at Home Depot frequently here in Illinois.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Sorry...didn't mean to take this thread
by mentioning the Amish folks...
Success of the Offshoots?...
...It seems to me that there was a drastic change in "recruitment practices" when twi split apart and the offshoots began. Twi was always targeting new people...the offshoots usually went after old twiers...Guys like JL, CG VF, etc etc etc, had spent years building their reputation and their following within twi...I guess they thought it was easier to grab folks who already knew them rather than to go after new folks who didn't know how "spiritual" they were.
Of course, the downside was that they had a definite ceiling on the number of folks they could get into their group...and of course, the old twiers carried a lot of "baggage" into the splinter group with them...
Without a plan to recruit fresh blood, their future is both limited and stagnant.
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Linda Z
Sorry to continue the Amish derail, but Rhino asked where they get the big bucks.
My impression is that the Amish get their big bucks by having lots of land, handed down generation to generation, and by being good businessmen and being thrifty. If the money's coming in and you have no mortgate, no automobile expenses, no clothing expenses (I think the women make all the clothes), the money can pile up. The Amish aren't big consumers like the rest of us, so what they make, they mostly keep and can invest in more land.
When I was at the Indiana Campus, I often heard about the big Amish auction place in Shipshewana. There were Amish restaurants in that area that always had a line out the door...I've seen that in Pennsylvania, too.
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