Looking Beyond a Monochromatic Faith…

[sirguessalot]

My purpose for this thread is manifold. For one, I simply need to express what I’ve come to know before it “burns a hole in my pocket,” and I do so with the hope that it contributes to whatever “awakening from the dead” we are each and all presently a part of.

Also, I feel a strong need to address an important angle that seems missing from most doctrinal dialogues, not only down here in this basement, but in the dialogues of most religious culture today. And this particular void, I believe, is one of the major contributors to our lack of discernment in spiritual matters in TWI and beyond. Perhaps you will see it too.

And honestly…my hope here is to also engage you (typically male) prolific doctrinal posters…who always also seem to avoid my threads, and have even gone as far as to suggest that I am too hard to understand (although without ever actually asking me to clarify). So, what I will try to do here is produce a clear and easy primer for what I hope will be a lively and mutually enlightening discussion. In other words...Feel free to ask me what the heck i'm yakkin about.

:)

ok…

It seems to me, that the most debilitating factor in most doctrines, is the monochromatic nature of their foundational concepts. Which to me, says carnal…and as in carnivore…and only able to see color-stripped black-and-white (mere good versus evil) versions of truth/reality.

And I think this monolithic approach to interpreting scripture and life in general is a huge part of the same old cause for failures and spiritual ignorances and confusion, and man’s inhumanity against man ever since we walked out of Eden.

So, as a primer for contemplation, what I want to do is present a brief and very simple summary of what a spectrum of faith might look like…tho, keep in mind that the map is never the same as the territory, just as scripture is never the same as the inward revelation of the people who wrote them.

Also, this list can and does apply to an individual, just as much as to an entire culture

And…the actual “bandwidth” most likely extends both above and below this crude and limited list.

1) The first faith we find is in our own lack and need. And so God is our personal magic wish-granter. “The power of believing” is a mantra of this basic babyfood level of faith, when all we want to do is get get get get something to take care of our suffering. Although, some children are taught NOT to want things, and so this vital faith is smashed at an early age, and can never be built upon. But also, some old men never leave this faith, and have given the world its selfish and violent warlords and narcissist egomaniacs.

2) The second faith that came to the world, is the faith in others. And so God is a mythic distant otherness who grants our wishes, but also often only grants it to our special chosen group. This faith is only one step beyond selfish, because we have simply learned how to be selfish in our group, rather than selfish alone. Racism is the hallmark of this faith. As is modern fundamental religion, where both God and devil are mythic “other.”

3) The third faith that came to the world, is the faith in reason and logic. Beyond magic, beyond myth, America was founded on this kind of faith. Science and industry are based on this kind of faith. Faith in the tools of skepticism and proof. The great independent man of the west has this kind of faith. Rugged individualism and economics rely heavily on this kind of faith.

It is my opinion that vpw/twi/pfal/tvt (and most christianity today) has never really moved beyond these first 3 faiths, and even only barely touched the 3rd with those feeble attempts at "mathematical precision in scriptural interpretation."

4) The fourth faith that came to the world, is the faith in a kind of love beyond death. It is the great equalizer of all, and that faith which deals with the grim reaper and hell itself. It is faith in equal rights, and lends to greater medicine, women’s rights, children’s rights, and gets beyond racism, scriptural or otherwise. Imo, this kind of faith was beyond twi doctrine, but not beyond all individuals in twi. This is also a big part of the level of faith that jesus introduced..but not all it, of course. This where we know how to die with grace. Or perhaps even to "die before we die."

5) The fifth faith that came to the world, is the faith in integration.. It is the faith that comes once the death grip on previous faiths are let go. Beyond selfishness, beyond family, beyond proof, and beyond fear of death itself, this faith brings us a freedom to reshape our faith at will without all the terror. Greater free flow of information is a hallmark of this level of faith. Higher science and a rapidly increased capacity to know. Increased complexity does not confound, but enriches. Innovation abounds as "miracles and wonders"

6) The sixth faith is more abstract than before. This faith can see and feel the generalities, now that one has allowed all info to flow free. But this faith does not study the nature of water itself, but observes the movement of the ocean. This faith sees and FEELS the trends and patterns. This is where dreams and visions are observed for subtler value. This is where the inner artist lives, and where soul meets spirit. Our ability to predict things increase, because of our greater awareness of trends.

7) The seventh faith is the faith in silence and stillness. The highest reaches of consciousness, and an awareness of our own true spiritual nature. This is where we meet God, and from where we can observe all our previous faiths as they still exist within us and the world. This last faith is the simplest of them all, and that which holds them all. But not only “the top,” but the actual ground of all the others. This faith is the Witness, where we are to rest.

Of course, I have just described a mere ascending order

which is only half (or less) of the story.

and its one thing to learn the basic notes

but quite another to learn how to play a song

and quite another to learn how to play on time and in tune

and even quite another to learn how to write a new song

and yet even quite another to learn how to live in harmony like the good book says we can and should

ok

what say you, peeps?

Edited March 25, 2006 by sirguessalot

[TheInvisibleDan]

Hello Sir Guess.

Interesting notion on the spectrum of faith, though I think to a certain extent one could easily replace "faith" with "attitude" (or some such word) without missing a beat. Or with "stages" of ones own life.

From whence did this first faith arrive - did it also "come into the world" like the second through fifth?

You appear to be speaking here from a standpoint of God as a "mythic otherness" (if these degrees of "faith" came into the world from elsewhere?). It's just that the expression "came into the world" evokes an otherworldly origin not unlike that of "the Light" in the prologue to the Fourth Gospel.

Your 6th faith is one strikingly reflective of the perspectives of artists. I have spent the whole evening contemplating the design of a cabinet.

And the 7th - I must enter immediately by going to bed and disengaging my mind into the void of silence for a few hours.

Or have I with this need wandered full circle back into number 1?

:)

Danny

Edited March 25, 2006 by TheInvisibleDan

[allan w.]

Interesting in itself that you chose 'seven' types of faiths, I guess being 'seven' colors of a prism.

Q: Which of / how many of these faiths did Jesus Christ exhibit ?, as to me he is the standard of faith.

[sirguessalot]

Interesting notion on the spectrum of faith, though I think to a certain extent one could easily replace "faith" with "attitude" (or some such word) without missing a beat. Or with "stages" of ones own life.

too true, too true...and then some.

language and definition and concept is just a tool, and never the same as the actual substance of what we speak of.

faith, stages, states, moods, attitudes, levels, etc...

even then, we havent really left english yet

what really helps a lot, for example, is when you know that I know that you know that we are not attached to our own labels when we are talking.

We become more free to speak of spiritual things without all the usual conflict.

another thing to keep in mind

is that we can use this spectrum to describe/find our general stage of being

but we can also have and experience specific talents and altered states that temporarily "spike" beyond our established stage

(such as from illness, drugs, fasting, falling in love, fame...you name it)

but how we interpret or explain our peak experiences to ourselves and others may always come thru whatever our established "stage of faith" is

in other words...if i see and feel some angelic presence, but i am mostly egocentric or ethnocentric,

i may turn around and say that god has chosen me above everyone else

or that the angel has come as a sign of my group's superiority

(much like how vpw misunderstood the nature and purposes of whatever visions and insights he actually had)

From whence did this first faith arrive - did it also "come into the world" like the second through fifth?

You appear to be speaking here from a standpoint of God as a "mythic otherness" (if these degrees of "faith" came into the world from elsewhere?). It's just that the expression "came into the world" evokes an otherworldly origin not unlike that of "the Light" in the prologue to the Fourth Gospel.

yeah, i am speaking in somewhat old mythic terms, but not very uniformly, though, either.

cuz i dont want to give the impression that what ive written is some lock tight thing.

so i kept it kind loose and informal that way

and...it would probably take me weeks and months to compose even something small and "perfectly worded"

and also cuz i rather enjoy the language of myth and magic, as much as science and beyond

and...i dont want to put anyone to sleep with some alien jargon

but if we take this back to the scriptural Genesis model,

perhaps we could say that these stages of faith "came from nowhere,"

one by one on each of the days of the lord...each building upon the previous,

and answering for the lack of the previous

but even that is more free and easy ways of describing such things

because perhaps we could also say that all 7 kinds of faiths came on the 7th day

and everything prior was of those things i mentioned being below the spectrum

(such as the "faith" of a star, or moon, or blade of grass, or sea slug)

but regardless, i think that how we can recognize such wavelenghts in life NOW

both within ourselves, and out in society and culture

is perhaps more important and valuable than finding out "what Moses really exactly meant"

(even tho advances in research and history and lineage are also valuable ways to keep people from pawning off opinions as accurate

as well as reclaim/preserve some of the authentic wisdom of the actual traditional lineages)

Your 6th faith is one strikingly reflective of the perspectives of artists. I have spent the whole evening contemplating the design of a cabinet.

And the 7th - I must enter immediately by going to bed and disengaging my mind into the void of silence for a few hours.

Or have I with this need wandered full circle back into number 1?

yeah, kinda. which is what we may also want.

something i try to keep in mind,

is how ALL of these "faiths" are present in each of us now

to some degree or other

whether we are waking or asleep

but deep dreamless sleep is definately where we are "forced" into the 7th state,

whether we know it or not, or like it or not, or are "awake and aware" during it or not, etc...

(most of us sleep thru it)

but ideally, i think we can practice resting in this 7th stage of faith throughout our waking AND sleeping lives

and ultimately, i think if we can see our engagement with this spectrum as a continuum,

where we are not only ascending the "stairs" (eros)

but descending as well (agape)

poor vpw could only descend from where he was, which was the first 3 rungs

and his attitudes towards death and hell kept him from going anywhere else

i would even go as far as to say he was typical of carnal monochromatic man

in that he was both very afraid and jealous of higher stages,

and considered any expression of them to be a part of his pantheon of evil spirits come to deceive

Q: Which of / how many of these faiths did Jesus Christ exhibit ?, as to me he is the standard of faith.

good question, allan

i would say...all of them...and then some

i think what i wrote to Danny points to some things worth considering

also, i think that if you look at one of the books where Jesus faith is MOST revealed (imo)

(interestingly enough called "The Revelation of Jesus Christ")

you will see within the first few chapters that his faith included the full spectrum

from the initial image of him with a rainbow about his head

to the 7 churches, to the 7 angels

to the imagery of the 7 eyed lamb

to the seven seals (of the inward man)

yada yada...

:)

sorry if i come across as too long winded for anyone

maybe just read slower, or just ask me wtf i am talking about

etc

Edited March 26, 2006 by sirguessalot

[CM]

these 7 are summed up in the first line or 2 of each one yet motivations can change thereafter.

Putting them in a different perspective accordingly to the individual's own desire as stated in the first one.

they are worded well imo but also can held in many hands and minds

changing the motivation and desire will propel these 7 into another outcome

and then of course what is the outcome or results that is the goal

or rather not only the goal but beyond the goal into that which is more

then hoped for and becomes more then what it started out to be

which is faith to faith basically in a nut shell-me being the nut of course...

so as not to imply that we are all nuts anyway :)

Edited March 26, 2006 by CM

[sirguessalot]

lol...my grandpa told me that the best way to catch a squirrel..is to sit at the bottom of a tree and act like a nut

CM, some of what you wrote reminds me of a few other ways ive seen all this...

...how this spectrum of "faith" can also represent a spectrum of intentions, values, awareness...even a spectrum of morallity

...and again, how this spectrum is not the substance, but more like a scale that can be applied to ANY category

a few very crude and loose examples of what im getting at:

values...

at 1) we may value our own interests above all

at 2) we may value our group's interests above all

at 3) we may value what is provable above all

at 4) we may value equality above all

at 5) we may value information above all

at 6) we may value creativity above all

at 7) we may value all of the "above"

God-views...

at 1) we may consider God to be a magic wish granter

at 2) we may consider God to be a mythic other

at 3) we may consider God to be the laws of physics

at 4) we may consider God to be universal brotherly love

at 5) we may consider God to be language itself

at 6) we may consider God to be the force of creativity

at 7) we may consider God to be all that which simply is (I AMness)

societies...

at 1) a society might be ruled by self-proclaimed gods, or ganglords (such as the day of pre-abraham)

at 2) a society might be ruled by patriarchies and families (most of recorded human history)

at 3) a society might be ruled by independence (such as the "advent" of the USA)

at 4) a society might be ruled by democracy (such as many changes of the last century)

at 5) a society might be ruled by information (some seem to want to be heading this way now)

at 6) a society might be ruled by innovation and creativity

at 7) a society might be ruled by a radical level of freedom and awareness that we've most likely never seen

and like what i think CM was getting at...the spectrum is not the end result, but more like a portal to more than what it started out to be

also...for the record...i'm not trying to fit everything into 7 boxes either...i'm just using the traditional and scriptural model as a mere measuring device, as i believe it was intended.

for example...one could take 5) and expand it into 3 sub-categories

or much like one could take a ten foot rope and cut it into 7 pieces, or 10 pieces, or 20

...it doesnt change the length of the original rope

Edited March 26, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

btw...i hope my comment about wanting some of the usual doctrinal guys to chime in on this isn't misunderstood by you ladies.

there are quite a few women here whom i have come to respect for their minds as much as their hearts.

and i would love to hear what you have to say on this as well.

its just that i am somewhat amazed at how the guys who usually jump at the chance to declare doctrinal soundness (or unsoundness) continue to pass on this more-or-less ubiquitous subject every time ive brought it up

:blink:

and another add..

i have found that Paul's listings of both manifestions and fruit seem to line up quite nice with the spectrum, as well

but then again...so do the 7 dwarves

[CM]

lol sirg...

i was just wondering how Danny's cabinet came out

or should we go and help him with it

cuz if if he don't like it we'll help him rip it out and start over with

a new idea and ideas on how he would like it to be

i got a hammer and some nails, anyone got some paint?

Edited March 27, 2006 by CM

[TheInvisibleDan]

lol sirg...

i was just wondering how Danny's cabinet came out

or should we go and help him with it

cuz if if he don't like it we'll help him rip it out and start over with

a new idea and ideas on how he would like it to be

i got a hammer and some nails, anyone got some paint?

(lol) I'm still in the process of mixing and matching wood pieces, so nothing is actually fastened together

at this point. It is a cabinet for the circuitry of a musical instrument called a "Theremin" which is played

by moving one's hands around two antennae, without actually touching it. Music "from the ether" as it used to be called during the 20s and 30s.

The wood pieces are salvaged from some drawers to a dresser that used to be in my childhood home, which suffered almost total destruction last year. All that remained was this old dresser out in the shed.

The old home will probably be torn down completely by its new owner in the months to come.

Danny

[TheInvisibleDan]

From its ashes shall arise

A musical ark.

A gateway to the ether.

[TheInvisibleDan]

A vision of the alternate universe of the 1950s future, which cosmic harddrive crashed without a backup somewhere in the neighborhood of 1960.

[sirguessalot]

no pressure, Danny, but i do hope you are going to take a pic or two and record something

meanwhile, heerz what i found

man o man...i just love the electric age

[Sunesis]

Sir Lance, I like your list very much - as I look on my own life of faith in Christ, I kind of see those stages.

I am not a poetic writer and thinker as you are, but I do enjoy this. I think it is no coincidence that the number 7 in the Bible has always implied perfection.

I would like to know how you would list Paul's listings, as you alluded to before.

[sirguessalot]

Hi Sunesis

dang, i guess i shouldnt have said anything about Paul's stuff

because that is not easy to explain, for me

so much baggage with the words, here

and so, a lot of lot of work

but here is an old thread on the subject, tho my opinions continue to renew and transform as the days go by

and i could do a word study and rewrite it all again tomorrow without flinching much

i have found that the maps overlap kinda nicely...but not perfectly...which is perfect, imo

as they do with the days of Genesis, and all the rest of the Biblical (and extra-biblical) lists and numerical significances

and that the manifestations seem to have very little to do with supernatural toolkits and exclusive special abilities

but rather, a deep expression of inherent ordinary human capacities

even though they may seem magic

and in a sense, really kinda are

also, i would probably do better to play hermit for a month (or a year) and write a small book on each of these

and they would probably even look quite a bit different than what ive written there

and not a precise formula, but more of a poetic way of comparing maps

not that i think we should want to stare at maps all day

but so we have a better way of navigating the territories

of what we think we know and believe

but mostly, i think i would leave them in the same order as they sit on the page in the Bible

rather than rearrange them the way vpw did in pfal

because they seem to build upon each other sequentially, anyway

or rather...build around and within and alongside each other

Edited March 27, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

one thing i would like to say about the speaking in tongues and intepretation, tho

in terms of the spectrum

is that i now think that the speaking in tongues of acts and corinthians was no where near the same as the prayer practices as we were taught in pfal

(tho that kind of thing is beneficial, but more like an esoteric and overblown contemplative practice)

but to speak in tongues, is to speak of life in terms of a spectrum of realities

and to interpret tongues, is simply to explain how this might work

not a supernatural power, per se

but a big big step into our greater god-given/inherent capacity for greater transmission of understanding between humans via dialogue

....

also,

i have seen that another enlightening way to use the spectrum

is to look at stages of care and concern

1) we care about ourselves

2) we care about our group

3) we care about accomplishment

4) we care about every living thing, including ecological concerns

5) we care about organizing and connecting as much as we can

6) we care about what is new and emerging

7) we care about awareness itself

and so take a look at this list as if were 7 switches

and consider what it might look like, for example

if a person or culture had only switches #2 and #3 on

or perhaps only switches #1 and #4 on

or perhaps only switch #7 on

and so...

what is it to be whole?

or sound?

Edited March 28, 2006 by sirguessalot

[year2027]

God first

Beloved Todd and others

God loves us all

Yes I love the beginning of these note of pure love to reach to help each other grow in faith

Now I have not read every reply yet but I love were this tread is going

Yes there is faith of all kinds in this fleshly world but when faith turns to trust that is spiritual were we really begin to grow in faith but on a new relm

The tones of love we hear like you have share with us the tones of faith

the tones of trust with the tones of love and all others tones of the spirit is a sound I love to hear but I am still just a beginer

or shades of light of the flesh -v- the shades of the lights of truth

for the way flesh can talk to things of the flesh -v- the way spirit can talk to spiritual things

for the way we can tralvel with fleshly elements -v- the way we can travel spiritualy

So as we fly with the lights of the spiritual realms and as we hear the spiritual sounds we long for the day we can touch them too

for there are smells of the flesh and smells of the spirit

but the top of the mountain of faith is complete trust in God and his son

Let God and his son directed our paths more and more

thank you I love this subject

with the tone of love sounding to all reaching to touch you all with a pure kiss of spiritual love Roy

[sirguessalot]

i like the word "tone," Roy, and how you've used it here

a true Word of God, fer sure

...

ok, heerz another tad ramble...

when it comes to the difference between flesh and spirit

sometimes i think they are also really one and the selfsame thing

all of which can also be called Spirit

perhaps the different between flesh and spirit is like the difference between hard and soft

its just a useful way of describing opposite states of the same thing, which can also be called spirit

but then i guess we are talking about different things with the same Word of God

i think there is a wide variety of gradients between these extremes

depending on how you chop the rope, like i mentioned above

maybe we can say that there are countless gradients of flesh

which eventually become soul...of which there are also many many gradients

which also, eventually get thinner and lighter until they reach what we might call spirit

which, perhaps, in this sense, is the only one of the classic three with no gradients at all

in this one sense, Spirit is the clearing in which both body and soul exist

and not only that, but the one and selfsame clearing in which ALL of our bodies and souls exist

and i think that maybe when, knowing ourselves as also spirit,

that we see that this body and soul as not two things at all

but rather, two ends of one very complex thing...

perhaps we will as much of this silly and useless conflict between the thinkers and feelers

perhaps a big part of the false illusionary enmity will be removed from the concepts we rely on

and i think that if most people were not so afraid of this clearing

we might actually find the peace of God we've been looking for

...

but "spirit" is just another Word of God, anyway

what it means depends on how we use it

depends on whom is using it and why

and depends perhaps what section or era of the bible we are reading from

or what genre, or era, or culture of spiritual literature we are referring to

cuz sometimes it means the opposite of flesh

sometimes it means that which is in flesh and everything

sometimes is means something else entirely

and then there is all that mountain of other stuff

like other words in other languages used to describe the same darn thing

ultimately, i think

if you have no direct experience of what this or that kind of spirit is

it is just a concept, and a myth, and perhaps a hijacked a translation of someone else's experience

Edited March 29, 2006 by sirguessalot

[Xena]

Ever notice how a rainbow sometimes repeats a color? It's often Purple on both sides.

I spend much of my time with Native American folks, and have come to really appreciate their way of viewing things. Their thinking is not linear, but more circular. In reading your Seven Faiths (which is wonderful, by the way) I would propose that you connect Faith #7 back up with Faith #1. And I think the connection would be some state of Purity or Innocence - which would not really be another "Faith", but rather a state of being, which could serve both as a starting point and an arrival point.

The spectrum then would be seen as a circle.

As a midwife, I have been blessed to see people in that Purity state, before they move into Faith #1. In our culture, not many of us make the journey all the way back around to Purity. But some do.

Is Faith a means to an end?

Hmmmmmm. Well, personally I think it just goes round and round.

[TheInvisibleDan]

Ever notice how a rainbow sometimes repeats a color? It's often Purple on both sides.

I spend much of my time with Native American folks, and have come to really appreciate their way of viewing things. Their thinking is not linear, but more circular. In reading your Seven Faiths (which is wonderful, by the way) I would propose that you connect Faith #7 back up with Faith #1. And I think the connection would be some state of Purity or Innocence - which would not really be another "Faith", but rather a state of being, which could serve both as a starting point and an arrival point.

There's something to this. I think of my father in the last year of his life.

He reverted to a younger time and a child in his mind.

Like a tape being rewound, and stopped at certain points, one day he was "going to work",

the next day back in grade school 70 years ago, back in his mothers house, and (literally)

wearing a diaper again. He apparently did go back to the beginning, as I've observed this

process in other older people in their last days as well.

Strange but my father's death did not overly sadden me at the time. I felt he reached his destination (wherever that was). Though his passing has effected me in the manner of certain hot salsas.

Danny

[sirguessalot]

Thanks for joining in this thread, Xena

Very much enjoyed what you wrote, and hope to see you around

I only have a sec to make a brief comment on this...

I would propose that you connect Faith #7 back up with Faith #1.

although i want to say that i think we are speaking very simply of many radical complexities

and i would even take what you wrote a step further to say this:

that "faith #7" does MORE than just circle back around

but rather, is "a faith" in the GROUND (yes...which is pure and innocent) that was there/here all along

in a sense...#7 is a step backwards and outwards

and is both above AND below

as it always was

and always will be

and in a sense, it is that which is both OUTSIDE and WITHIN the continuum

and yes...most easily and often seen at the threshholds of birth and death

..

Danny...thanks for sharing that one

Edited April 5, 2006 by sirguessalot

[sirguessalot]

ya know...i still kinda wonder why some of the most vocal advocates of biblical absoluteness avoid this kind of topic, but will jump at the chance to argue doctrine on other threads, over the same old kinds of things

:blink:

anyway...

like i've said before

i think one of the biggest doctrinal and practical failures of fundamentalist efforts

is the monochromatic nature of the doctrines

it seems to severly dullen our ability to interpret life in general

...particularly on the same levels as those heroes of old whose writings and stories we seem to like to bash over each other's heads

perhaps, because we are fundamentally unable to get beyond the need for flat, monolithic and absolute doctrines for such interpretation

...and they were not

and "i dont understand why you think that way, therefore you are crazy/wrong/evil"

has got to be one of the hallmark reactions of this monochromatic glitch that seems so rampant

and it seems as if this kind of monochromatic reaction can happen in each "level" of a spectrum

(not mere black and white...but more like red and black and white, or green and black and white, etc...)

in other words...

#1 might say to any of the others..."i dont understand why you aren't out for yourself like i am...so you must be crazy"

#2 might say to any of the others..."i dont understand why you dont want to think the way my group does...therefore you must by deceived."

#3 might say to any of the others..."i dont understand why you dont see the plain logic of my position...therefore you must be an idiot."

#4 might say to any of the others..."i dont understand why you dont care about everything as much as i do...therefore you must be evil"

etc...

...

btw, Xena...part of your post reminded me of "supernumerary rainbows." i saw one in Missouri once, during this storm at dusk...and wow...it was like an infinite stack of purple and teal bows behind the main double rainbow. i almost fell over looking into it.

Edited April 6, 2006 by sirguessalot

[CM]

i see a great fear of what the motive of this info is for

if you guys knew Todd like i know Todd you would know

that his questions are to inspire thought within yourselves

and to see a bit of a different perspective then you are used to

not to further himself or to make himself some hot shot at this forum

but to jump start some of you into new light to see the light in you

you guys have the basics of scripture

you know what is seen when there are selfish motives

there are no selfish motives or goals here from Todd

and perhaps a fear of seeing new light on any given subject

happy to be out of the way and able to think for yourself

so here it is, think for yourself

different avenues of light and growth and wisdom

multiple avenues that can be explored

or perhaps some are still stuck in way doctrine

thinking there is someone out there somewhere to get you

how much do you really see happening?

do you see that where you are is where you want to be?

this thread opened up for you not for Todd

although Todd wants to learn as well

if there was participation

are we still self-centered or able to open the heart?

did twi beat the LOVE OUT OF US?

did they win?

and also thanks to those who already are participating

and this goes for all the threads he has started by the way

[sirguessalot]

i'm deeply appreciative of that post, CM

and your vouching for me

its hard to tell sometimes why people dont reply

without feedback, we can be quite invisible, it seems

[TheInvisibleDan]

i'm deeply appreciative of that post, CM

and your vouching for me

its hard to tell sometimes why people dont reply

without feedback, we can be quite invisible, it seems

Tell me about it (lol).

I'm going to the mall to see if I can find a copy of "The Gospel of Judas"...

Danny

[Bramble]

There's a copy of the gospel of Judas online:

http://www9.nationalgeographic.com/lostgos...spelofJudas.pdf