It can't be this simple--I think I might have missed the question or the answer or both
When I talk about Redemption and Righteousness you all understand I am talking about three different facets of the issue, right???
When we accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour he cleanses us from all sins we have committed up to that point
When as followers of Jesus Christ, even when trying to do our best we mess up and backslide, or just blow it, when we confess we blew it , ask forgiveness and continue to do our best we are forgiven through Jesus Christ and we don't become unrighteous or loose our claim to righteousness at the judgement .
If we knowingly choose to do what is unrighteous knowing it is unrighteous, and claim the fact we "accepted" Jesus Christ means we are still righteous while continuing in the same behavior then we are not righteous and not forgiven
I was rereading Belle's earlier posts and it suddenly dawned on me that, very possibly, I had not made clear that I am talking about three separate facets of the issue. Facet one and two are scripturally sound facet three is the one I want to see scripture to refute. It is Facet Three that VPW And LCM and Rich Urquhart and my Ex used as justification, and what some on these boards still use as justification, for what went on in TWI
Does this help any,or have I just further muddied the waters???
I get you, Mo. Have all along. And whole-heartedly agree. Have all along.
I think the muddying of the waters comes in with the nit-picking and ripping to shreds the spirit of the message...not with the stating of one's position/understanding/beliefs/thoughts.
Which is basically what this experiment was about...
That when one picks nits, when one must shred the spirit of the message, one never gets the message and one's 'logic' cannot stand up to the whole of the message.
(I hope that makes sense instead of muddying the waters. LOL!)
Has anyone heard of the terms 'letter of the law' and 'spirit of the law'? These terms are used quite a bit in discussions about legal matters and issues.
For example, it is the 'letter of the law' to issue a speeding citation regardless of any extenuating circumstances. However, if the officer who stops the car finds a woman giving birth in the backseat of that car...and realizes her husband was speeding in an effort to get her to the hospital, the officer can use his/her discretion to not issue a citation and even provide a 'lights and siren' escort. The officer has this option because 'the spirit of the law' was to make the highways and byways safe, not to punish those with a legitimate reason for speeding.
OK, I've made up a couple of other terms to describe what I saw happen in twi...and see happen here in discussions quite a bit. They are 'letter of the bible' and 'spirit of the bible'.
As relates to this particular subject of righteousness, the 'letter of the bible' says once made righteous, always righteous. However, the 'spirit of the bible' unquestionably refutes the 'letter of the bible'.
(Again, I hope that makes sense instead of muddying the waters. LOL!)
I'm getting off the couch now - but hold my place for me Belle and please save me some of those ribs 'cause I haven't had any yet.
I hope this isn't completely off topic.....
I once posed this thought to a few people - It occured to me that there are two facets to those things we used to call our "sonship rights"
There was the SPIRITUAL reality of God's work in us at the New birth. Then, there is the PRACTICAL reality of how we manifest that gift. ( OK don't jump me here!)
I believe that the new Birth is so much bigger than what we know. So "you have been made holy - or are sanctified" but you might not act that way. same with righteusness, redemption, justificaton ( although in the greek these two are very close.)
At the new birth we were made righteous. It BEHOOVES us to act righteously. Just as the law made sin apparent - so the walk in grace makes God's grace and His gift apparent - not only to us but to all around us.
I have read a book by entitled "This Was Your Life" by Rick Howard and Jamie Lash. In fact I used to attend the same church as Jamie. I'll have to dig it out - because it makes such a strong, verbal and visual statement of the bema and the rewards for living righteously.
Anyway, its late and i'm not up to my best game - so I'll do some research and get to everyone tomorrow.
Pass those ribs please - are there any napkins left?
At the new birth we were made righteous. It BEHOOVES us to act righteously. Just as the law made sin apparent - so the walk in grace makes God's grace and His gift apparent - not only to us but to all around us.
Have absolute agreement with that
so the next layer is
we accept the new birth, and our sins are forgiven, we have that clean slate and we deliberately continue to commit unrighteous acts by knowingly sinning--are we still righteous or are we a dog returning to its vomit??
2 Peter 2
20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Proverbs 26
10] The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
[11] As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
[12] Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him
Here, Dooj, have some wet naps, they work much better on those ribs...they're so tender!!
I think we're all saying the same thing. Pity the others let us down, CW. But we're having fun and eating well, aren't we?
It's nice that the scriptures say we're supposed to live righteously once we've been made righteous, but it does seem as though IF one chooses not to do so, that they do lose that state of righteousness and are held accountable to that behavior throughout eternity.
I think, like you said, MO, that it is not believed by TWIts and that they obviously have no fear of God or having to face consequences for their actions. Which, makes me question how someone so evil can have been made righteous to begin with. But that's not what the Bible says. They've returned to their vomit and can't possibly be righteous and inherit the kingdom of God or any rewards that may be associated with it.
My doctrinal skills aren't very sharp. That's why I've posted the scriptures I've found that might be ones used if the PFAL adherents were to join the discussion and actually try to answer the question. I guess I've been playing Devil's Advocate. :) Those verses still don't negate the original scripture in question.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but having a drink and being a drunkard are too different things, it appears. Which also negates the Big X's and Little X's vee pee taught about..... <_<
Speaking of beer....I've got some over here. NASCAR just isn't the same without a nice cold beer. The pizza should be coming out soon, too....
Again, I'm just thinking - IF we are born again with incorruptible seed - then that's what it is - incorruptible.
So we can be righteous on the inside but not manifest it on the outside. All sorts of consequences there folks. Remember a lot of people thought that God was just messing with Adam when he didn't die straight forward. - maybe even Adam thought he got away with something - but we all know he didn't.
I really think that rewards will be a big deal when the time comes - or else God wold not have said anything about losing them. Not to mention, think about it:
You ae standing in front of the Lord Jesus Christ and he rattles off your pluses and your minuses - then all the bad burns up and only the good remains........This is the Lord we're talking about - He heard lyou cuss out your parents and he heard you call His name in the middle of the night. No hiding!
Seems to me that no matter what we think people will be getting away with - God is a better judge than we are.
Again, I'm just thinking - IF we are born again with incorruptible seed - then that's what it is - incorruptible.
So we can be righteous on the inside but not manifest it on the outside. All sorts of consequences there folks. Remember a lot of people thought that God was just messing with Adam when he didn't die straight forward. - maybe even Adam thought he got away with something - but we all know he didn't.
I really think that rewards will be a big deal when the time comes - or else God wold not have said anything about losing them. Not to mention, think about it:
You ae standing in front of the Lord Jesus Christ and he rattles off your pluses and your minuses - then all the bad burns up and only the good remains........This is the Lord we're talking about - He heard lyou cuss out your parents and he heard you call His name in the middle of the night. No hiding!
Seems to me that no matter what we think people will be getting away with - God is a better judge than we are.
Dooj,
Think about the story of the prodigal son. The forgiving father didn't drag him back home kicking and screaming...he (the son) had to feel contrition and then return home.
I tend to think out loud - or in writing - and I just throw things out then think some more.
I have thought a lot about the Prodigal son, the forgiving father and the bitter son who remains home. I have found that in my life I have had seasons of being in each of these positions.
The prodiagal son didn't return home when the money first ran out, nor when the famine first hit. He returned home once he had hit the lowest point of his life. I can only think that pride was the cause of this - the not wanting to go with hand out, admitting failure.
The father - he waits - daily watching the horizon and waiting - because he either hopes or KNOWS that his son will return home.
The bitter brother at home - who resents the fact that in spite of him doing all the reight things, he has to watch his little brother get accepted almost instantaneously back into the home he couldn't leave fast enough. No acts of contrition - just a simlpe yet heartfelt "I'm sorry, I was wrong - please forgive me." and this guy's back in like flint.
I bet that Israel - the Pharisees especially, felt justlike this when Jesus had the gall to heal heathens. Even more so when the Gentiles were invited into the household.
So what have I said? perhaps nothing of consequence. I'm not arguing with you - just thinking. No, the Father didn't drag that son home - but he was prepared for his return and even expecting it. i wonder if god is the same way - really - How do we know when a person really goes to the Father and begs forgiveness? It might be with their last breath - God is ready.
Not disagreeing.
Perhaps I have committed the Unforgiveable Sin of the FORUMS : being OFF TOPIC
Actually, Dooj, I don't see you being off-topic at all. Wasn't the topic initially something about "the unrighteous not inhereting......?"
The argument put forward by twi and others of that ilk are unscriptural, imho.
The reason I say this is because it removes all free will from man, which is a fundamental principle of the relationship between God and man. God gives us freedom of will, freedom to do the right thing or freedom to do the wrong thing. God gives one the freedom to walk away, including His own children.
Oh, btw, the verse we have all learned so well, 1 Pe 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.", is sort of interesting:
the word rendered "seed" in the English language versions is the word "spora" (Strongs 4701), which actually means "that which is sowed." This 1 Pe usage is the only usage of that word in the NT. The word normally rendered "seed" in the KJV is the word "sperma" (Strongs 4690), which means "seed (that from which a plant germinates)."
I'm sure you can appreciate the difference in the two words. Subtle, but there.
One other point: the phrase "by the word of God." "By" is the Greek word "dia" -- which means "through"
In fact, the RSV and NASB both have a better translation of that second phrase: "through the living and enduring word of God."
That, in fact, should be the emphasis: that a person is regenerated through the Word of God, which is incorruptible. The emphasis is on the Word of God being incorruptible, not about you having some incorruptible seed planted in you that will keep you born again even if you choose to walk away.
If you take a look at the rest of the chapter, it makes a whole lot more sense:
1Pe 1:24 for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,
1Pe 1:25 but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you.
You should be thinking about the parable of the sower right about now....
Sorry that it isn't all that well structured, but as you said, it's thinking out loud...
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
9
16
14
10
Popular Days
Mar 23
47
Mar 24
20
Mar 25
12
Mar 26
5
Top Posters In This Topic
oldiesman 9 posts
Belle 16 posts
CoolWaters 14 posts
templelady 10 posts
Popular Days
Mar 23 2006
47 posts
Mar 24 2006
20 posts
Mar 25 2006
12 posts
Mar 26 2006
5 posts
templelady
WAIT A MINUTE
It can't be this simple--I think I might have missed the question or the answer or both
When I talk about Redemption and Righteousness you all understand I am talking about three different facets of the issue, right???
I was rereading Belle's earlier posts and it suddenly dawned on me that, very possibly, I had not made clear that I am talking about three separate facets of the issue. Facet one and two are scripturally sound facet three is the one I want to see scripture to refute. It is Facet Three that VPW And LCM and Rich Urquhart and my Ex used as justification, and what some on these boards still use as justification, for what went on in TWI
Does this help any,or have I just further muddied the waters???
Edited by templeladyLink to comment
Share on other sites
CoolWaters
I get you, Mo. Have all along. And whole-heartedly agree. Have all along.
I think the muddying of the waters comes in with the nit-picking and ripping to shreds the spirit of the message...not with the stating of one's position/understanding/beliefs/thoughts.
Which is basically what this experiment was about...
That when one picks nits, when one must shred the spirit of the message, one never gets the message and one's 'logic' cannot stand up to the whole of the message.
(I hope that makes sense instead of muddying the waters. LOL!)
Has anyone heard of the terms 'letter of the law' and 'spirit of the law'? These terms are used quite a bit in discussions about legal matters and issues.
For example, it is the 'letter of the law' to issue a speeding citation regardless of any extenuating circumstances. However, if the officer who stops the car finds a woman giving birth in the backseat of that car...and realizes her husband was speeding in an effort to get her to the hospital, the officer can use his/her discretion to not issue a citation and even provide a 'lights and siren' escort. The officer has this option because 'the spirit of the law' was to make the highways and byways safe, not to punish those with a legitimate reason for speeding.
OK, I've made up a couple of other terms to describe what I saw happen in twi...and see happen here in discussions quite a bit. They are 'letter of the bible' and 'spirit of the bible'.
As relates to this particular subject of righteousness, the 'letter of the bible' says once made righteous, always righteous. However, the 'spirit of the bible' unquestionably refutes the 'letter of the bible'.
(Again, I hope that makes sense instead of muddying the waters. LOL!)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
I'm getting off the couch now - but hold my place for me Belle and please save me some of those ribs 'cause I haven't had any yet.
I hope this isn't completely off topic.....
I once posed this thought to a few people - It occured to me that there are two facets to those things we used to call our "sonship rights"
There was the SPIRITUAL reality of God's work in us at the New birth. Then, there is the PRACTICAL reality of how we manifest that gift. ( OK don't jump me here!)
I believe that the new Birth is so much bigger than what we know. So "you have been made holy - or are sanctified" but you might not act that way. same with righteusness, redemption, justificaton ( although in the greek these two are very close.)
At the new birth we were made righteous. It BEHOOVES us to act righteously. Just as the law made sin apparent - so the walk in grace makes God's grace and His gift apparent - not only to us but to all around us.
I have read a book by entitled "This Was Your Life" by Rick Howard and Jamie Lash. In fact I used to attend the same church as Jamie. I'll have to dig it out - because it makes such a strong, verbal and visual statement of the bema and the rewards for living righteously.
Anyway, its late and i'm not up to my best game - so I'll do some research and get to everyone tomorrow.
Pass those ribs please - are there any napkins left?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Have absolute agreement with that
so the next layer is
we accept the new birth, and our sins are forgiven, we have that clean slate and we deliberately continue to commit unrighteous acts by knowingly sinning--are we still righteous or are we a dog returning to its vomit??
2 Peter 2
20] For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[21] For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[22] But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Proverbs 26
10] The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
[11] As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.
[12] Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit? there is more hope of a fool than of him
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Here, Dooj, have some wet naps, they work much better on those ribs...they're so tender!!
I think we're all saying the same thing. Pity the others let us down, CW. But we're having fun and eating well, aren't we?
It's nice that the scriptures say we're supposed to live righteously once we've been made righteous, but it does seem as though IF one chooses not to do so, that they do lose that state of righteousness and are held accountable to that behavior throughout eternity.
I think, like you said, MO, that it is not believed by TWIts and that they obviously have no fear of God or having to face consequences for their actions. Which, makes me question how someone so evil can have been made righteous to begin with. But that's not what the Bible says. They've returned to their vomit and can't possibly be righteous and inherit the kingdom of God or any rewards that may be associated with it.
My doctrinal skills aren't very sharp. That's why I've posted the scriptures I've found that might be ones used if the PFAL adherents were to join the discussion and actually try to answer the question. I guess I've been playing Devil's Advocate. :) Those verses still don't negate the original scripture in question.
All have sinned and come short of the glory of God, but having a drink and being a drunkard are too different things, it appears. Which also negates the Big X's and Little X's vee pee taught about..... <_<
Speaking of beer....I've got some over here. NASCAR just isn't the same without a nice cold beer. The pizza should be coming out soon, too....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
Again, I'm just thinking - IF we are born again with incorruptible seed - then that's what it is - incorruptible.
So we can be righteous on the inside but not manifest it on the outside. All sorts of consequences there folks. Remember a lot of people thought that God was just messing with Adam when he didn't die straight forward. - maybe even Adam thought he got away with something - but we all know he didn't.
I really think that rewards will be a big deal when the time comes - or else God wold not have said anything about losing them. Not to mention, think about it:
You ae standing in front of the Lord Jesus Christ and he rattles off your pluses and your minuses - then all the bad burns up and only the good remains........This is the Lord we're talking about - He heard lyou cuss out your parents and he heard you call His name in the middle of the night. No hiding!
Seems to me that no matter what we think people will be getting away with - God is a better judge than we are.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Dooj,
Think about the story of the prodigal son. The forgiving father didn't drag him back home kicking and screaming...he (the son) had to feel contrition and then return home.
Something to consider...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
doojable
mark,
I tend to think out loud - or in writing - and I just throw things out then think some more.
I have thought a lot about the Prodigal son, the forgiving father and the bitter son who remains home. I have found that in my life I have had seasons of being in each of these positions.
The prodiagal son didn't return home when the money first ran out, nor when the famine first hit. He returned home once he had hit the lowest point of his life. I can only think that pride was the cause of this - the not wanting to go with hand out, admitting failure.
The father - he waits - daily watching the horizon and waiting - because he either hopes or KNOWS that his son will return home.
The bitter brother at home - who resents the fact that in spite of him doing all the reight things, he has to watch his little brother get accepted almost instantaneously back into the home he couldn't leave fast enough. No acts of contrition - just a simlpe yet heartfelt "I'm sorry, I was wrong - please forgive me." and this guy's back in like flint.
I bet that Israel - the Pharisees especially, felt justlike this when Jesus had the gall to heal heathens. Even more so when the Gentiles were invited into the household.
So what have I said? perhaps nothing of consequence. I'm not arguing with you - just thinking. No, the Father didn't drag that son home - but he was prepared for his return and even expecting it. i wonder if god is the same way - really - How do we know when a person really goes to the Father and begs forgiveness? It might be with their last breath - God is ready.
Not disagreeing.
Perhaps I have committed the Unforgiveable Sin of the FORUMS : being OFF TOPIC
Link to comment
Share on other sites
markomalley
Actually, Dooj, I don't see you being off-topic at all. Wasn't the topic initially something about "the unrighteous not inhereting......?"
The argument put forward by twi and others of that ilk are unscriptural, imho.
The reason I say this is because it removes all free will from man, which is a fundamental principle of the relationship between God and man. God gives us freedom of will, freedom to do the right thing or freedom to do the wrong thing. God gives one the freedom to walk away, including His own children.
Oh, btw, the verse we have all learned so well, 1 Pe 1:23 "Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.", is sort of interesting:
the word rendered "seed" in the English language versions is the word "spora" (Strongs 4701), which actually means "that which is sowed." This 1 Pe usage is the only usage of that word in the NT. The word normally rendered "seed" in the KJV is the word "sperma" (Strongs 4690), which means "seed (that from which a plant germinates)."
I'm sure you can appreciate the difference in the two words. Subtle, but there.
One other point: the phrase "by the word of God." "By" is the Greek word "dia" -- which means "through"
In fact, the RSV and NASB both have a better translation of that second phrase: "through the living and enduring word of God."
That, in fact, should be the emphasis: that a person is regenerated through the Word of God, which is incorruptible. The emphasis is on the Word of God being incorruptible, not about you having some incorruptible seed planted in you that will keep you born again even if you choose to walk away.
If you take a look at the rest of the chapter, it makes a whole lot more sense:
1Pe 1:24 for "All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls,
1Pe 1:25 but the word of the Lord abides for ever." That word is the good news which was preached to you.
You should be thinking about the parable of the sower right about now....
Sorry that it isn't all that well structured, but as you said, it's thinking out loud...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.