In their prophecies, Christ, Paul, and Peter did not equate “thief” with a “signless” event. In essence, there is no scriptural justification to use the symbol of a “thief” to claim that an event is “signless.”
The signs are all over the place, and getting more numerous!
All you have to be is a believer looking twards the Blessed Hope.
To address your posts, I would like to refer to Greek words found in 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4.
“Coming” is translated from the Greek word parousia, which means “advent, return, coming, presence.”
“Caught up” is translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means “to seize, catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take.” The Latin word for “caught up” is raptus and is translated into the English language as rapture.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo/raptus] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15–17 kjv)
Another record of Christ’s parousia for the church to catch away the church is found in Corinthians:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [parousia]. (1 Cor. 15:22, 23 kjv)
Parousia itself does not identify a specific event, for this Greek word is found in the context of gathering the church and rescuing Israel.
In 2 Thessalonians, Paul spoke of Christ’s parousia in the context of destroying the Antichrist:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]. (2 Thess. 2:8 kjv)
Note: The Greek definitions are taken from Strong’s Greek Dictionary.
It seems to me that this is a very personal thing that happens with every man, woman and child.
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming
Equating death for all in Adam and life for all in Christ, which would include everyone.
And as it talks about Christ within us does it not make sense that this coming is from within?
“Coming” is translated from the Greek word parousia, which means “advent, return, coming, presence.”
So returning or coming from where? Heaven.
And this Heaven is where?
Does it not lie within us and around us behind us and before us?
So, your saying that the Rapture isn't before the Wrath to come, and isn't a specific happening, and this will happen when, but then again it doesn't have at a specific time?
CM
And you believe that all that ever lived will be changed and live happily ever after?
From what I understand of the word "heaven", it means above.
I understand where you are coming from on this. Classic Christian thinking is this: The pre-tribulation folks believe the signless rapture and the post-tribulation folks disbelieve the signless rapture.
Where I am coming from on this thread is this: Prophecies mark a rapture that is accompanied by signs, and that this rapture will precede the wrath (pre-tribulation).
In essence, the coming of Christ has two stages: First, the coming for the church and then seven years later the coming for Israel. Prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments reveal that the arrivals are marked by unmistakable, divine signs.
Allow me to share a vision for this thread:
We have twenty centuries of Christianity that have gone before us. The light of Christ has been passed on to us, our generation. My interest is to follow the lead of those who had greater honor in the Bible: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). The Bible speaks with one voice, for there is one author: God. Let this thread be a place of sanctuary where together we see the perfect harmony of end-time prophecies given to us in the Old and New Testaments. Impossible? Not if God is the author. Anyone game?
CM... Perhaps the best way I know to respond is to continue with the posting.
THE APOSTLE PETER AND THE PROPHET JOEL
When Paul stated “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night,” he was not the only apostle who spoke of the “day of the Lord.” There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who specifically prophesied of the “day of the Lord”: Paul and Peter.
...How important was the first day of the church to God and to us?
How important was the revelation spoken by Peter on the first day of the church?
On the first day of the church—Pentecost—Peter stood up and addressed the crowd.
[T]his is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:16–21)
Who are those who call on the “name of the Lord”?
Who are those who “will be saved”?
When will “the sun be turned to darkness and the moon to blood”? “Before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord”—the same “day of the Lord” spoken by Paul.
Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who specifically spoke of the “day of the Lord,” are referring to two entirely different concepts?
Why couldn’t Peter and Paul be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same concept, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?
On the first day of the church, Peter spoke to the crowd and referenced Joel. Why?
Why did Peter quote Joel?
Why did Christ quote Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.
Why did Paul quote Isaiah in the context of speaking in tongues? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.
Why did Christ quote Daniel in the context of the Antichrist? Because it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy.
Who established the precedent to help the church understand why a New Testament apostle would quote an Old Testament prophet? Christ.
Peter quoted Joel on Pentecost because it was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy (and it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy).
Isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with any man making an exception to the precedent established by Christ regarding why an Old Testament prophet would be quoted in New Testament times?
Here is Peter’s statement on Pentecost: “[T]his is what was spoken by the prophet Joel.” It was not “like” what was spoken by Joel; it was what Joel spoke.
To witness the magnitude of what Peter accomplished on the day of Pentecost, the prophecy first given by Joel is now presented. What Peter quoted from Joel’s prophecy is capitalized.
The following is taken from the second chapter of Joel:
And afterward, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL PEOPLE. YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, YOUR OLD MEN WILL DREAM DREAMS, YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS. EVEN ON MY SERVANTS, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS. I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN THE HEAVENS AND ON THE EARTH, BLOOD AND FIRE AND BILLOWS OF SMOKE. THE SUN WILL BE TURNED TO DARKNESS AND THE MOON TO BLOOD BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD. AND EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:28–32)
When Peter quoted Joel, he stopped before he quoted “for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.”
Why did Peter stop at the semicolon?
Why didn’t he at least finish the sentence?
Why didn’t he read the whole prophecy given by Joel?
What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?
When these questions are answered, the harmony between the Old and New Testaments is revealed.
Why did Peter stop where he did?
Truly, on the first day of the church, Peter carved out that section of Joel’s prophecy that directly applied to the time of the church. Peter marked the signs that initiated the church (“I will pour out my Spirit on all people”); he marked the signs that mark the presence of the church on Earth (“prophesy,” “visions,” etc.); finally, Peter marked the signs that mark the gathering of the church into Heaven (when “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord”). It’s the MYSTERY revealed.
The MYSTERY unfolded with dramatic signs on the Feast of Pentecost, the MYSTERY would be made known by God through divine signs, and the MYSTERY will end with dramatic signs on the Feast of Trumpets.
Hundreds of years prior to Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, God had already established the irrefutable signs that would mark the MYSTERY. Not one Old Testament prophet understood it. It was Peter who made it known to the “world” on the holy day of Pentecost.
On the first day of the church, Peter did not speak about “Mount Zion” and “Jerusalem” because that part of Joel’s prophecy is about the future of the twelve tribes: “Israel.” This is the time of great distress foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer. 30:7 KJV). Jeremiah foretold precisely what Joel foretold: there will be “deliverance” for Israel—“among the survivors whom the Lord calls.” This is what Peter didn’t quote because it applied not to the church but to Israel.
What is the significance of Peter’s reference to Joel?
Regarding Christ’s return for the church, God has given the church two witnesses: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Therefore, it is impossible that God is relying upon one New Testament apostle (Paul) to be the single witness to communicate the “picture” of Christ’s return for the church.
This text now turns to another apostle: John. What divine light did John give us regarding the signs that mark Christ’s return for the church?
that's a lot of stuff and questions you have revvel
that is good, questions are always good
what has to be explored is the conclusions
and not stuck into one perspective or 3 or 4
but to consider that these signs are to the individual who is experiencing this return/coming
all these signs will occur to this individual and they will be seen for what they are in truth
cause why is so many looking for physical signs when this is a spiritual event
something that happens from within and without
conception and birth and the presence of Christ
so as a thief in the night you may want to consider
that the spirit is seed and once in the right enviroment it will
bring forth the fruit it's intended to
and the coming will soon follow and
that man of perdition will melt away with the
breath of Christ from conception to birth
just as the birth of a baby
conception is undetected
"as a thief in the night"
but soon felt and delivered
cuz once conception occurs
their will surely be a birth
I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL PEOPLE. YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, YOUR OLD MEN WILL DREAM DREAMS, YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS. EVEN ON MY SERVANTS, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS. I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN THE HEAVENS AND ON THE EARTH, BLOOD AND FIRE AND BILLOWS OF SMOKE. THE SUN WILL BE TURNED TO DARKNESS AND THE MOON TO BLOOD BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD. AND EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:28–32)
does this mean it will happen to everyone at the same time?
or even just one at a time all these things will happen....
or in the process of time in a persons life death and life
and yes the old and new testaments tell of many things
about Christ and his coming and what will be experienced
Let this thread be a place of sanctuary where together we see the perfect harmony of end-time prophecies given to us in the Old and New Testaments. Impossible? Not if God is the author. Anyone game?
Hey there Revvel. :)
You bring up some good (and interesting) points. What I am having trouble with, is the way you interchange the word *rapture with *return*. Granted --- the Return was taught in the OT, and certainly the Isrealites looked to that as their *Hope*. They knew of messiah Ben-Joseph (the suffering servant), and messiah Ben-David (the conquering king), and that was what the return was to them --- deliverance from all their enemies.
What was NOT taught in the OT, was the rapture, so I don't see how you can inter-changably use the two terms, to describe one event -- (which is what I am seeing -- though I could be wrong.)
The church (as we know it today) was a *non-entity* when the OT prophecies were given. The Church (started on the day of Pentecost -- in the book of Acts), had a distinct beginning. therefore it could NOT have been prophicied about, before the day of Pentecost when the folks there first spoke in tongues.
Docvic called it the Mystery, but others have more properly labeled it the Sacred Secret. Secrets can be revealed, mysteries remain unknown. If the rapture had been a valid *topic for prophecy* in the OT, then these verses would not be true.
1 Corinthians 2:8-9
(8) None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
(9) However, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him.”
Signs are looked for by those who expect the return.
Signs will not be signalling the rapture.
A unique ending, to a unique administration, that only God knew about.
The church (started on the Day of Pentecost in Acts), had that unique beginning, and so it will have a unique end --- the Rapture -- not spoken of in the OT, just like the *church of the Body* wasn't spoken of.
No one knew about it back then, so the Return has to be a different occurrance.
I am of the opinion that Jesus was not God, therefore He Himself, did not know what was *in the books* (so to speak), and only spoke of what He read from the OT. Nor (IMO) did He know about the Administration of Grace, so when Jesus spoke of the return -- it obviously couldn't have been speaking about the Rapture, of which He had no knowledge of (at that time).
I understand what you are saying, for we were both taught to focus on the New Testament… since the church was a mystery in Old Testament times.
...Although the church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets, the church was in the mind of God. Therefore, God could give revelation about the church to the prophets—without the prophets understanding the implications of that revelation.
How do we know that God gave revelation to the Old Testament prophets about the future time of the church? The apostles. The apostles are our guides to help us see where God marked the church in the Old Testament.
For example, in the Book of Romans, Paul referenced Habakkuk:
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Rom. 1:17 kjv)
This is what Habakkuk foretold: “but the just shall live by his faith” (Hab. 2:4 kjv).
God gave revelation to Habakkuk about a future time when those made righteous by the blood of Christ would be “just,” and live by “faith.”
Even though the Old Testament prophets didn’t understand the fullness of their revelation, and even though the church was a non-entity, and even though Satan and his rulers were oblivious to God’s plan, it doesn’t mean prophecies about the church are absent in Old Testament writings.
If God can give revelation to Habakkuk about the church, can God give revelation to Joel about the church?
Just as Paul marked Habakkuk’s revelation about the church, Peter marked Joel’s revelation about the church.
With regard to signs, we both agree that the unique administration of the church began with dramatic, divine signs on Pentecost…
If dramatic, divine signs marked the beginning of the church, why can’t dramatic, divine signs mark the gathering of the church? This is what Peter foretold on Pentecost: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Dmiller… You call on the name of the Lord and you will be “saved” (delivered) at the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. It is the same “salvation” foretold by Paul: “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:9). Salvation means deliverance.
CM... You asked, “does this mean it will happen to everyone at the same time?”
The testimony of the New Testament is “Yes.” The descent of Christ from the right hand of God is a one-time occurrence to gather the church. Allow me to unfold this thought in future postings.
CM... The church begins for a person when he accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and believes the miracle of his Resurrection from dead (Rom. 10:9, 10). At that time, we do have the eternal, spiritual seed within us, but Christ himself is seated in Heaven... so his coming (which is his personal presence) will not be from within, but from above.
Dmiller and CM... The parousia of Christ is what we are talking about…
In the first century, Christ ascended to the right hand of God. Next, he will descend for the church and then later for Israel. This is the “advent” of Christ, or arrival of Christ… which has two stages and two purposes.
If God used the same word (Greek: parousia) to describe Christ’s descent from Heaven for the church and for Israel, then why can’t we do likewise?
...Although the church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets, the church was in the mind of God. Therefore, God could give revelation about the church to the prophets—without the prophets understanding the implications of that revelation.
How do we know that God gave revelation to the Old Testament prophets about the future time of the church? The apostles. The apostles are our guides to help us see where God marked the church in the Old Testament.
Well --- there is a concept I have never thought of before!.
I might be *scratchin' my head* for a while on this one.
Food for thought -- looks like a 5 course meal at the least. ;)
...Although the church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets, the church was in the mind of God. Therefore, God could give revelation about the church to the prophets—without the prophets understanding the implications of that revelation.
revvel
I can see this in the Lords ministry. Nicodemus and being born from above, the coming of the Comforter, the Forgiving Loving Father aka Prodigal Son {Jew and Gentile}, etc.
The Prophets spoke what God wanted, but they lacked the understanding, because it wasn't revealed to them. If Jesus knew more, He didn't say, and it's not written. I believe Peter said it well.
Concerning which salvation the prophets sought and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
searching what time or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did point unto, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glories that should follow them.
To whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto you, did they minister these things, which now have been announced unto you through them that preached the gospel unto you by the Holy Spirit sent forth from heaven; which things angel desire to look into.
I Peter 1:10-12
CM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If one looks up, I believe one is looking at heaven. To pin point the exact place where the Lord is, and where the Angles hang out, I don't know. Also, I don't believe in universal salvation. Romans 10:9 and 10 is to clear.
Romans 14:11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach.
Revel, I find your article very enlightening and food for thought, as I have been going back and forth between no rapture, its wrong doctrine and there is only one return of Christ for all; to ok, maybe the "rapture" is correct.
Well said about our Lord’s ministry and Peter’s declaration.
Hello CM,
When Paul spoke of every knee bowing before the Lord, he introduced it by referring to “it is written.”
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Rom. 14:11 KJV)
Consider the context of Paul’s prophecy, and how Paul referenced an Old Testament prophet, and that he is writing to the church:
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we [the church] shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us [in the church] shall give account of himself to God. (Rom. 14:10–12 KJV)
Paul spoke of the same “judgment seat” in his second letter to the Corinthians.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)
“Good” things refer to actions of the heart that are worthy of admiration; “bad” things express a lack of moral character, unbefitting for someone who claims to represent the Son of God…
It is from the judgment seat that the Lord Jesus Christ will judge his church, determining the impartation of his “reward.”
This is where, and when, every knee will bow…
When Paul referred to “it is written,” he referenced Isaiah:
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. (Isa. 45:23)
What did God mean by this?
Paul told us: Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in us, the church, when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
…Many concepts and prophecies spoken by the apostles—and by Christ himself—were first spoken in the days of the Old Testament prophets. In essence, God provided multiple witnesses in both Testaments who testify to God’s truth. So no matter the time or culture, Heaven’s message could be understood as originally given when the prophecies are “framed” by both Testaments.
CM… Give thought to this: If everyone is a part of a grand plan of universal salvation, then why would God speak of the lake of fire and the second death? If everyone (no matter what they believe) is saved, then who is going into the lake?
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15 KJV)
When Peter prophesied, “the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood,” he wasn’t the only apostle who spoke of these signs. There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who spoke of the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red: Peter and John. John’s prophecy marked the same signs as Peter—as well as other celestial and earthly signs.
I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red. (Rev. 6:12)
Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who prophesied of the sun turning dark (black) and the moon turning blood red, are referring to two entirely different events?
Why couldn’t John and Peter be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same event, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?
What will happen to the church after the sun turns dark and the moon turns blood red?
Peter said, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How is the church saved? Paul said it will be gathered off the Earth into the clouds with Christ. What is the ultimate destination?
Look at the vision Heaven gave to John:
After this I [John] looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation [not wrath]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:9–17)
Who is the “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb”?
Who are they who “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”?
The Gentiles? The Jews? Or are they the saved in Christ?
John and Peter both spoke of the signs that would mark the time of salvation (deliverance) for the saved in Christ. The multitude described by John is the same multitude described by Peter: “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” John’s revelation added a piece to the divine puzzle by expounding upon the revelation first spoken by Peter: “The sky [filled with those who call on the name of the Lord] receded like a scroll, rolling up [to Heaven]” (Rev. 6:14).
John is in agreement with Peter, and both are in agreement with Joel: the sun will turn dark (black) and the moon will turn blood red when Christ arrives to save those who call on the name of the Lord. This is the divine harmony of divine revelation, which contradicts the religious tradition of the “signless” rapture.
In the Book of Revelation, John identified the chronology of end-time events.
1. The church shall be “saved”… gathered into Heaven (Rev. 6:12–14; 7:9–17).
2. The time of “wrath” shall follow. The world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets:
God's prophets:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
(Rev. 11:3)
Satan's prophets:
The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)
This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,” this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven [seven years].” In the middle of the “seven” [after three and a half years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [at the time of the Apocalypse] (Dan. 9:27).
3. Finally, like Daniel, John marked the culmination of this time: the Apocalypse. Christ shall descend from Heaven with the church to destroy the armies of Satan and rescue the remnant of Israel.
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers. (Rev. 17:14)
I [John] saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8).] Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, “so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev. 19:11–21)
John’s prophecy expounded upon prophecies first given by the Old Testament prophets—which include Zechariah and Joel.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech. 14:3–5 KJV)
The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. . . . [F]or on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 3:16 KJV; 2:32)
According to the prophets and apostles, the coming of Christ has very distinct characteristics, for there are two stages that are separated by time.
This text now turns back to the apostle Paul. What piece of the prophetic puzzle did Paul provide when he referred to “the day of the Lord”?
CM… Give thought to this: If everyone is a part of a grand plan of universal salvation, then why would God speak of the lake of fire and the second death? If everyone (no matter what they believe) is saved, then who is going into the lake?
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15 KJV)
God bless…
revvel
I've already given it more thought then you know.
Do you know anything about Revelations?
Do you know anything about the lake of fire?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
From your posts you do not address many things that
are apparent in the scriptures.
You do not address life sir and that is where you fail.
Jesus did not waste his efforts.
God did not start this for all of it to end.
"There is none righteous no not one"
It is His righteousness not ours.
God has already blessed.
The blind cannot see it,
though they try to lead others.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
In your secound post, you worked the word, "Parousia", and yes that's what the word means, but are you saying that all the events of the Lords Coming take place at the same time? Not sure where your going with this.
CM
Didn't want to trainwreck this thread with dicussions on why I don't believe in Universal Salvation. I believe it's been discussed and debated before on other threads. I'm more curious in what revvel has to say about the End Times, so forgive me for not discussing Univesal Salvation.
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dmiller
Wait a minute ~~~
The Return, and the Rapture are two different events, no?
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coupcake
That's how I understand it DMiller.
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CM
where is a "return" talked about"
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CWF
revvel
The signs are all over the place, and getting more numerous!
All you have to be is a believer looking twards the Blessed Hope.
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revvel
Hello dmiller, coupcake, and CM,
To address your posts, I would like to refer to Greek words found in 1 Thessalonians, chapter 4.
“Coming” is translated from the Greek word parousia, which means “advent, return, coming, presence.”
“Caught up” is translated from the Greek word harpazo, which means “to seize, catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take.” The Latin word for “caught up” is raptus and is translated into the English language as rapture.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [harpazo/raptus] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thess. 4:15–17 kjv)
Another record of Christ’s parousia for the church to catch away the church is found in Corinthians:
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming [parousia]. (1 Cor. 15:22, 23 kjv)
Parousia itself does not identify a specific event, for this Greek word is found in the context of gathering the church and rescuing Israel.
In 2 Thessalonians, Paul spoke of Christ’s parousia in the context of destroying the Antichrist:
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming [parousia]. (2 Thess. 2:8 kjv)
Note: The Greek definitions are taken from Strong’s Greek Dictionary.
God bless.
revvel
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CM
Equating death for all in Adam and life for all in Christ, which would include everyone.
And as it talks about Christ within us does it not make sense that this coming is from within?
So returning or coming from where? Heaven.
And this Heaven is where?
Does it not lie within us and around us behind us and before us?
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CWF
revvel
So, your saying that the Rapture isn't before the Wrath to come, and isn't a specific happening, and this will happen when, but then again it doesn't have at a specific time?
CM
And you believe that all that ever lived will be changed and live happily ever after?
From what I understand of the word "heaven", it means above.
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CM
above earth right, well how far would that be?
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templelady
My understandig is that the return is signless in the sense, that there will not be an anouncement along the lines of
At 4:00PM GMT
Sunday
June 13
3745 AD
Jesus Christ will be returing to to earth at Kirkland Missouri
SO it's like a thief because one day there he will be no warning, no fanfare, just there
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revvel
Hello CWF,
I understand where you are coming from on this. Classic Christian thinking is this: The pre-tribulation folks believe the signless rapture and the post-tribulation folks disbelieve the signless rapture.
Where I am coming from on this thread is this: Prophecies mark a rapture that is accompanied by signs, and that this rapture will precede the wrath (pre-tribulation).
In essence, the coming of Christ has two stages: First, the coming for the church and then seven years later the coming for Israel. Prophecies in both the Old and New Testaments reveal that the arrivals are marked by unmistakable, divine signs.
Allow me to share a vision for this thread:
We have twenty centuries of Christianity that have gone before us. The light of Christ has been passed on to us, our generation. My interest is to follow the lead of those who had greater honor in the Bible: “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so” (Acts 17:11). The Bible speaks with one voice, for there is one author: God. Let this thread be a place of sanctuary where together we see the perfect harmony of end-time prophecies given to us in the Old and New Testaments. Impossible? Not if God is the author. Anyone game?
CM... Perhaps the best way I know to respond is to continue with the posting.
THE APOSTLE PETER AND THE PROPHET JOEL
When Paul stated “the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night,” he was not the only apostle who spoke of the “day of the Lord.” There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who specifically prophesied of the “day of the Lord”: Paul and Peter.
...How important was the first day of the church to God and to us?
How important was the revelation spoken by Peter on the first day of the church?
On the first day of the church—Pentecost—Peter stood up and addressed the crowd.
[T]his is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved. (Acts 2:16–21)
Who are those who call on the “name of the Lord”?
Who are those who “will be saved”?
When will “the sun be turned to darkness and the moon to blood”? “Before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord”—the same “day of the Lord” spoken by Paul.
Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who specifically spoke of the “day of the Lord,” are referring to two entirely different concepts?
Why couldn’t Peter and Paul be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same concept, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?
On the first day of the church, Peter spoke to the crowd and referenced Joel. Why?
Why did Peter quote Joel?
Why did Christ quote Isaiah in the synagogue of Nazareth? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.
Why did Paul quote Isaiah in the context of speaking in tongues? Because it was the fulfillment of Isaiah’s prophecy.
Why did Christ quote Daniel in the context of the Antichrist? Because it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy.
Who established the precedent to help the church understand why a New Testament apostle would quote an Old Testament prophet? Christ.
Peter quoted Joel on Pentecost because it was the fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy (and it would be the ultimate fulfillment of Joel’s prophecy).
Isn’t there something fundamentally wrong with any man making an exception to the precedent established by Christ regarding why an Old Testament prophet would be quoted in New Testament times?
Here is Peter’s statement on Pentecost: “[T]his is what was spoken by the prophet Joel.” It was not “like” what was spoken by Joel; it was what Joel spoke.
To witness the magnitude of what Peter accomplished on the day of Pentecost, the prophecy first given by Joel is now presented. What Peter quoted from Joel’s prophecy is capitalized.
The following is taken from the second chapter of Joel:
And afterward, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT ON ALL PEOPLE. YOUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS WILL PROPHESY, YOUR OLD MEN WILL DREAM DREAMS, YOUR YOUNG MEN WILL SEE VISIONS. EVEN ON MY SERVANTS, BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS. I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN THE HEAVENS AND ON THE EARTH, BLOOD AND FIRE AND BILLOWS OF SMOKE. THE SUN WILL BE TURNED TO DARKNESS AND THE MOON TO BLOOD BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND DREADFUL DAY OF THE LORD. AND EVERYONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED; for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 2:28–32)
When Peter quoted Joel, he stopped before he quoted “for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls.”
Why did Peter stop at the semicolon?
Why didn’t he at least finish the sentence?
Why didn’t he read the whole prophecy given by Joel?
What is Peter telling the church on the first day of the church?
When these questions are answered, the harmony between the Old and New Testaments is revealed.
Why did Peter stop where he did?
Truly, on the first day of the church, Peter carved out that section of Joel’s prophecy that directly applied to the time of the church. Peter marked the signs that initiated the church (“I will pour out my Spirit on all people”); he marked the signs that mark the presence of the church on Earth (“prophesy,” “visions,” etc.); finally, Peter marked the signs that mark the gathering of the church into Heaven (when “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord”). It’s the MYSTERY revealed.
The MYSTERY unfolded with dramatic signs on the Feast of Pentecost, the MYSTERY would be made known by God through divine signs, and the MYSTERY will end with dramatic signs on the Feast of Trumpets.
Hundreds of years prior to Peter’s declaration on Pentecost, God had already established the irrefutable signs that would mark the MYSTERY. Not one Old Testament prophet understood it. It was Peter who made it known to the “world” on the holy day of Pentecost.
On the first day of the church, Peter did not speak about “Mount Zion” and “Jerusalem” because that part of Joel’s prophecy is about the future of the twelve tribes: “Israel.” This is the time of great distress foretold by Jeremiah; it is “the time of Jacob’s [israel’s] trouble; but he shall be saved out of it” (Jer. 30:7 KJV). Jeremiah foretold precisely what Joel foretold: there will be “deliverance” for Israel—“among the survivors whom the Lord calls.” This is what Peter didn’t quote because it applied not to the church but to Israel.
What is the significance of Peter’s reference to Joel?
Regarding Christ’s return for the church, God has given the church two witnesses: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Therefore, it is impossible that God is relying upon one New Testament apostle (Paul) to be the single witness to communicate the “picture” of Christ’s return for the church.
This text now turns to another apostle: John. What divine light did John give us regarding the signs that mark Christ’s return for the church?
To be continued…
revvel
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CM
that's a lot of stuff and questions you have revvel
that is good, questions are always good
what has to be explored is the conclusions
and not stuck into one perspective or 3 or 4
but to consider that these signs are to the individual who is experiencing this return/coming
all these signs will occur to this individual and they will be seen for what they are in truth
cause why is so many looking for physical signs when this is a spiritual event
something that happens from within and without
conception and birth and the presence of Christ
so as a thief in the night you may want to consider
that the spirit is seed and once in the right enviroment it will
bring forth the fruit it's intended to
and the coming will soon follow and
that man of perdition will melt away with the
breath of Christ from conception to birth
just as the birth of a baby
conception is undetected
"as a thief in the night"
but soon felt and delivered
cuz once conception occurs
their will surely be a birth
does this mean it will happen to everyone at the same time?
or even just one at a time all these things will happen....
or in the process of time in a persons life death and life
and yes the old and new testaments tell of many things
about Christ and his coming and what will be experienced
and the beginning of the church
are we not each the temple of the living God?
and part of the whole plan of salvation?
when does the church begin for a person?
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dmiller
You bring up some good (and interesting) points. What I am having trouble with, is the way you interchange the word *rapture with *return*. Granted --- the Return was taught in the OT, and certainly the Isrealites looked to that as their *Hope*. They knew of messiah Ben-Joseph (the suffering servant), and messiah Ben-David (the conquering king), and that was what the return was to them --- deliverance from all their enemies.
What was NOT taught in the OT, was the rapture, so I don't see how you can inter-changably use the two terms, to describe one event -- (which is what I am seeing -- though I could be wrong.)
The church (as we know it today) was a *non-entity* when the OT prophecies were given. The Church (started on the day of Pentecost -- in the book of Acts), had a distinct beginning. therefore it could NOT have been prophicied about, before the day of Pentecost when the folks there first spoke in tongues.
Docvic called it the Mystery, but others have more properly labeled it the Sacred Secret. Secrets can be revealed, mysteries remain unknown. If the rapture had been a valid *topic for prophecy* in the OT, then these verses would not be true.
Signs are looked for by those who expect the return.
Signs will not be signalling the rapture.
A unique ending, to a unique administration, that only God knew about.
The church (started on the Day of Pentecost in Acts), had that unique beginning, and so it will have a unique end --- the Rapture -- not spoken of in the OT, just like the *church of the Body* wasn't spoken of.
No one knew about it back then, so the Return has to be a different occurrance.
I am of the opinion that Jesus was not God, therefore He Himself, did not know what was *in the books* (so to speak), and only spoke of what He read from the OT. Nor (IMO) did He know about the Administration of Grace, so when Jesus spoke of the return -- it obviously couldn't have been speaking about the Rapture, of which He had no knowledge of (at that time).
Good thread!! :)
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revvel
Hello dmiller,
I understand what you are saying, for we were both taught to focus on the New Testament… since the church was a mystery in Old Testament times.
...Although the church was a mystery to the Old Testament prophets, the church was in the mind of God. Therefore, God could give revelation about the church to the prophets—without the prophets understanding the implications of that revelation.
How do we know that God gave revelation to the Old Testament prophets about the future time of the church? The apostles. The apostles are our guides to help us see where God marked the church in the Old Testament.
For example, in the Book of Romans, Paul referenced Habakkuk:
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. (Rom. 1:17 kjv)
This is what Habakkuk foretold: “but the just shall live by his faith” (Hab. 2:4 kjv).
God gave revelation to Habakkuk about a future time when those made righteous by the blood of Christ would be “just,” and live by “faith.”
Even though the Old Testament prophets didn’t understand the fullness of their revelation, and even though the church was a non-entity, and even though Satan and his rulers were oblivious to God’s plan, it doesn’t mean prophecies about the church are absent in Old Testament writings.
If God can give revelation to Habakkuk about the church, can God give revelation to Joel about the church?
Just as Paul marked Habakkuk’s revelation about the church, Peter marked Joel’s revelation about the church.
With regard to signs, we both agree that the unique administration of the church began with dramatic, divine signs on Pentecost…
If dramatic, divine signs marked the beginning of the church, why can’t dramatic, divine signs mark the gathering of the church? This is what Peter foretold on Pentecost: “The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
Dmiller… You call on the name of the Lord and you will be “saved” (delivered) at the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. It is the same “salvation” foretold by Paul: “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ” (1 Thess. 5:9). Salvation means deliverance.
CM... You asked, “does this mean it will happen to everyone at the same time?”
The testimony of the New Testament is “Yes.” The descent of Christ from the right hand of God is a one-time occurrence to gather the church. Allow me to unfold this thought in future postings.
CM... The church begins for a person when he accepts Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior and believes the miracle of his Resurrection from dead (Rom. 10:9, 10). At that time, we do have the eternal, spiritual seed within us, but Christ himself is seated in Heaven... so his coming (which is his personal presence) will not be from within, but from above.
Dmiller and CM... The parousia of Christ is what we are talking about…
In the first century, Christ ascended to the right hand of God. Next, he will descend for the church and then later for Israel. This is the “advent” of Christ, or arrival of Christ… which has two stages and two purposes.
If God used the same word (Greek: parousia) to describe Christ’s descent from Heaven for the church and for Israel, then why can’t we do likewise?
That’s all I’m saying.
God bless.
revvel
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CM
well i thought you had questions revvel.
I was into exploring the questions more.
But you are giving answers.
So I can't continue with this line of reasoning.
cause it seems you have already decided what is and is not.
Peace
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dmiller
Well --- there is a concept I have never thought of before!.
I might be *scratchin' my head* for a while on this one.
Food for thought -- looks like a 5 course meal at the least. ;)
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CWF
revvelI can see this in the Lords ministry. Nicodemus and being born from above, the coming of the Comforter, the Forgiving Loving Father aka Prodigal Son {Jew and Gentile}, etc.
The Prophets spoke what God wanted, but they lacked the understanding, because it wasn't revealed to them. If Jesus knew more, He didn't say, and it's not written. I believe Peter said it well.
CM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If one looks up, I believe one is looking at heaven. To pin point the exact place where the Lord is, and where the Angles hang out, I don't know. Also, I don't believe in universal salvation. Romans 10:9 and 10 is to clear.
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CM
Romans 14:11For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Philippians 2:10That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
1 Timothy 4:9This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. 10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. 11These things command and teach.
These are very clear as well CWF.
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Sunesis
Revel, I find your article very enlightening and food for thought, as I have been going back and forth between no rapture, its wrong doctrine and there is only one return of Christ for all; to ok, maybe the "rapture" is correct.
Please continue... :)
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CM
good answer by the way CWF
when we know we don't know something that helps
And revvel I'm not trying to put you in any kind of bad light at all.
I just can't go the direction you are going that's all.
Not at this time anyway. But there are different thoughts on this matter.
Peace.
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revvel
Hello CWF,
Well said about our Lord’s ministry and Peter’s declaration.
Hello CM,
When Paul spoke of every knee bowing before the Lord, he introduced it by referring to “it is written.”
For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. (Rom. 14:11 KJV)
Consider the context of Paul’s prophecy, and how Paul referenced an Old Testament prophet, and that he is writing to the church:
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we [the church] shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us [in the church] shall give account of himself to God. (Rom. 14:10–12 KJV)
Paul spoke of the same “judgment seat” in his second letter to the Corinthians.
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. (2 Cor. 5:10)
“Good” things refer to actions of the heart that are worthy of admiration; “bad” things express a lack of moral character, unbefitting for someone who claims to represent the Son of God…
It is from the judgment seat that the Lord Jesus Christ will judge his church, determining the impartation of his “reward.”
This is where, and when, every knee will bow…
When Paul referred to “it is written,” he referenced Isaiah:
By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. (Isa. 45:23)
What did God mean by this?
Paul told us: Isaiah’s prophecy is fulfilled in us, the church, when we stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
…Many concepts and prophecies spoken by the apostles—and by Christ himself—were first spoken in the days of the Old Testament prophets. In essence, God provided multiple witnesses in both Testaments who testify to God’s truth. So no matter the time or culture, Heaven’s message could be understood as originally given when the prophecies are “framed” by both Testaments.
CM… Give thought to this: If everyone is a part of a grand plan of universal salvation, then why would God speak of the lake of fire and the second death? If everyone (no matter what they believe) is saved, then who is going into the lake?
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:15 KJV)
God bless…
revvel
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revvel
Sunesis
Thank you for your thoughts…
THE APOSTLE JOHN AND THE PROPHET DANIEL
When Peter prophesied, “the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood,” he wasn’t the only apostle who spoke of these signs. There were two apostles (witnesses), not one, who spoke of the sun turning dark and the moon turning blood red: Peter and John. John’s prophecy marked the same signs as Peter—as well as other celestial and earthly signs.
I [John] watched as he [Christ] opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red. (Rev. 6:12)
Are we in Christ’s church supposed to believe that two apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, who prophesied of the sun turning dark (black) and the moon turning blood red, are referring to two entirely different events?
Why couldn’t John and Peter be two witnesses given to us by God who are referring to the same event, only providing different pieces of the same puzzle to help us understand more of the same picture?
What will happen to the church after the sun turns dark and the moon turns blood red?
Peter said, “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” How is the church saved? Paul said it will be gathered off the Earth into the clouds with Christ. What is the ultimate destination?
Look at the vision Heaven gave to John:
After this I [John] looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice: “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, saying: “Amen! Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen!”
Then one of the elders asked me, “These in white robes—who are they, and where did they come from?” I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation [not wrath]; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore, they are before the throne of God and serve him day and night in his temple; and he who sits on the throne will spread his tent over them. Never again will they hunger; never again will they thirst. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb at the center of the throne will be their shepherd; he will lead them to springs of living water. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.” (Rev. 7:9–17)
Who is the “great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb”?
Who are they who “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb”?
The Gentiles? The Jews? Or are they the saved in Christ?
John and Peter both spoke of the signs that would mark the time of salvation (deliverance) for the saved in Christ. The multitude described by John is the same multitude described by Peter: “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” John’s revelation added a piece to the divine puzzle by expounding upon the revelation first spoken by Peter: “The sky [filled with those who call on the name of the Lord] receded like a scroll, rolling up [to Heaven]” (Rev. 6:14).
John is in agreement with Peter, and both are in agreement with Joel: the sun will turn dark (black) and the moon will turn blood red when Christ arrives to save those who call on the name of the Lord. This is the divine harmony of divine revelation, which contradicts the religious tradition of the “signless” rapture.
In the Book of Revelation, John identified the chronology of end-time events.
1. The church shall be “saved”… gathered into Heaven (Rev. 6:12–14; 7:9–17).
2. The time of “wrath” shall follow. The world shall witness three and a half years of God’s prophets and then three and a half years of Satan’s prophets:
God's prophets:
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.
(Rev. 11:3)
Satan's prophets:
The beast [the Antichrist] was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. . . . Then I saw another beast, coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. (Rev. 13:5, 11)
This seven-year prophecy of John was first given by the prophet Daniel. Known as the seventieth “seven,” this is the final seven years of prophecy decreed for Daniel’s people, which is Israel (Dan. 9:24).
He [the Antichrist] will confirm a covenant with many for one “seven [seven years].” In the middle of the “seven” [after three and a half years] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him [at the time of the Apocalypse] (Dan. 9:27).
3. Finally, like Daniel, John marked the culmination of this time: the Apocalypse. Christ shall descend from Heaven with the church to destroy the armies of Satan and rescue the remnant of Israel.
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers. (Rev. 17:14)
I [John] saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. [Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of the saints (Rev. 19:8).] Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.” He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, “so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and mighty men, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, small and great.”
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh. (Rev. 19:11–21)
John’s prophecy expounded upon prophecies first given by the Old Testament prophets—which include Zechariah and Joel.
Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. (Zech. 14:3–5 KJV)
The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel. . . . [F]or on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be deliverance, as the Lord has said, among the survivors whom the Lord calls. (Joel 3:16 KJV; 2:32)
According to the prophets and apostles, the coming of Christ has very distinct characteristics, for there are two stages that are separated by time.
This text now turns back to the apostle Paul. What piece of the prophetic puzzle did Paul provide when he referred to “the day of the Lord”?
To be continued…
revvel
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CM
I've already given it more thought then you know.
Do you know anything about Revelations?
Do you know anything about the lake of fire?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
From your posts you do not address many things that
are apparent in the scriptures.
You do not address life sir and that is where you fail.
Jesus did not waste his efforts.
God did not start this for all of it to end.
"There is none righteous no not one"
It is His righteousness not ours.
God has already blessed.
The blind cannot see it,
though they try to lead others.
3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? 4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. 5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just. 9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17And the way of peace have they not known: 18There is no fear of God before their eyes.
Edited by CMLink to comment
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CWF
revvel
In your secound post, you worked the word, "Parousia", and yes that's what the word means, but are you saying that all the events of the Lords Coming take place at the same time? Not sure where your going with this.
CM
Didn't want to trainwreck this thread with dicussions on why I don't believe in Universal Salvation. I believe it's been discussed and debated before on other threads. I'm more curious in what revvel has to say about the End Times, so forgive me for not discussing Univesal Salvation.
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CM
That's cool CWF. I came on too strong anyway.
I really don't go for the phrase "universal salvation".
But life for all. It says that there will be priests.
Which would require inhabitants to minister to.
Thinking of the lake of fire revvel.
Would that not coincide with the love of God?
The ones already passed from death to life,
had already experienced this fire.
Yet there purification is not quite complete.
Still having this carnal man hanging around, bugging us.
And wouldn't it be hell to see the carnal man die?
The self of flesh and carnal thinking?
I don't think that anyone escapes the lake of fire.
Which is not literal but can get pretty hot.
Requiring the latter rain of this baptism.
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