So here's a question I've been wondering about...and you don't have to respond at all...I'm just curious...
How do the sentiments expressed in this thread and a couple of others come across to an HR person?
I'm thinking a prayer to cover this thread against being used to the detriment of people would be in order...
OK - I will break the rule here of there are two kinds of people...
There are three kinds of HR people
1 - employee advocates - always mean well but don't always make the right decision on how the company will succeed - which leaves everyone without a job
2 - Management advocates - always subscribe to management policy and will fire an employee at the drop of a hat and enjoy it - and damed if the company doesn't go down with it
3 - Real HR people who understand that they are best being part of an integral management team by promoting the skills of the employees
I've interviewed dozens of them or even more - and that is thow they bin
HR is what it is, and yes, it depends on how it is used where a person works. The term Whistle Blowing is one that I am familiar with, in that if you are mistreated, infringed upon, abused in some way shape or form, you have a right to blow the whistle on that person, with the proper documentation. There are also rules in most states for ZERO tolerance for those types of behaviors, esp. when there is some form of high archey where you work....i.e. Lawyers and their "assistants" i.e. Doctors and the nurses. It didnt used to be that way at all, and now there are very clear laws in place about whistle blowing and zero tolerance.
HR usually.......usually....has ONE specific person in place that deals with nothing but employee/employee issues. They are almost always there to solve the problems at that level and be done with it all, however you will always have one person who is probably endeavoring to do that, and than another person who wouldnt know how to do that, in spite of possibly loosing their job. The documentation that would occur would only be the first step in a process of bringing the two people together who have differences, and trying to work them out-with the management also in attendance to make sure nothing gets twisted out of place. I have found in my own experiences...(YES, being in management roles and in charge roles...) that this is the normal course of these meetings. I have also found at work, and with life in general that its almost always the person who isnt willing to get past something or change something that they did wrong that will loose in the end. It is generally the person who is willing to problem solve that comes out ahead. I am not sure that there is anything to fear or be scared about in talking about or dealing with HR issues. EVERY major corp or place of business usually has HR in place...and yes, HR IS a mixed bag, but If I worked somewhere...anywhere...where I couldnt take the proper steps in protecting my own rights as an employee, I think I would have to work elsewhere. YES...there is a chain of command so to speak....but it comes down to this....Did you try to solve the problem with the person, first? If that didnt work, did you go to your direct management and try to solve the issue? IF that STILL doesnt work, did you go to THEIR boss and try to overcome whatever obstical was there? IF NONE of that works, you document and go to HR. THEY HAVE to work on some sort of resolve with you, basically. Most people walk around in fear about going above someones head with issues. A MANAGER....probably spends 10 percent of their time dealing with scheduling and office crap, and probably the other 90 percent of their time dealing with employees that dont want to tow the line. SAD, isnt it??
(FORGET the author, but she used to be the top HR person at SW Airlines and also was the head HR person at Yahoo.com). REALLY good book about HR policy and being REAL.
I agree with what praying for dylight said in her post.
I attend many seminars, taught directly by HR people of major companies and schools in the city and surrounding companies. It is a recruitment and a network that works to find the best employee and employers for this area.
Managers and professionals attend these seminars to learn the newest trends tech, and to network.
The NUMBER one reason employees get fired is because they complain.
As praying said a manager does indeed spend too much time babysitting issues between employees , but that issue does not decrease the work load they have as a manager , they do not feel it is their job and is a burden inflicted on them by problem employees.
When a solution is not forth coming it is easier all around to just get rid of the issue itself which is for he/or her the person complaining .
Over and over and over this is sited as the problem HR, managers and the company at large has to deal with.
In most companies the person hearing the complaints about the employees ( your boss) has to justify why they would fire someone. In NY it is a fire at will state which means they can and do fire anyone for any reason and no cause is neccesary to terminate. Frankly the fact somone is complaining is a good enough reason.. sure you can go through HR and do the steps praying is saying may be "in place" for whistle blowers and ect.. and how do we all know the famous whistle bowers?
they got fired for doing it . bottom line . and they are still complaining but unemployed.
If your mission to rid the company of this guy feels that noble to you dot go for it but be aware of the probable outcome.
So what is the solution? find another job.
It is your career and your choice where you work, but not your choice whom you work with , so you need to throw some resumes out there.
I live in a very large medical community and we have several very large universities in the area.
In this city they umbrella which is a data base of employees for ALL of the major companies and schools.
So if your throwing your resume around they know exaclty who you are before you even get an interview.. HUGE FACT HR people network they talk and they hold seminars to see what the work force looks like in an area and how to improve it and network talent.
Most managers and folks who are in charge of over seeing others and how they get along is in that position for a reason.
they are your boss your authority and was granted that because they earned it. You are to answer to them.. now can you seek a solution "over their head" yeah maybe the company does have a heirarchy inplace but most of those are used for serious problems such as a genuine sexual harrasment or injury on the job etc.. not someone not liking another... the manager will refer a person to the HR only if it is something they can not handle for a reason again. and you better have your fact and ducks in a very straight line .
If you insist and do it anyway well you are slapping his professionalism in the face and causing even more trouble than rual could ever . You would be walking on thin ice from then on in for sure and I certainly would be sending out that resume if you feel you need to go that far.
You just told your boss he does not know how to do his job, with the complaint you are not able to get along with another employee.
Well just look at that !with the fact every person is just trying to show up to go to work today , who would you get rid of?
this is the number one complaint in the work force and the answer is look for another job move on and be happy in your own life and leave raul alone, Raul makes his own work day, and you yours.
managers will place certain trouble -some employees in a work place for a reason they may excel at something your very very unaware of or offer a skill that is needed that you refuse to recognize because of your strong personal feelings.
They may be listening to his feedback about other employees and why they are unhappy..(that may be his skill ) and if you allow the tension to over ride your professional well Im sorry dot it would have to be you to leave.
It does not matter how long you have beeen there or how much you did for a company you are both in the same position, and you may be at risk if your making a much larger salary.. nice to find a replacement for all the rouble you cause wit the complaining and LESS money put out for it.
managers do spend alot of time wasted doing exactly what you describe.. but they do not like it and do not consider it a part of their job .. the goal is to eliminate it as much as possible and have team players that can work with one another. Even if that means getting rid of "good" employees who just cant understand how important it is to them .
dot if your that unhappy put some resumes out in the area and look for another job.
Even if your dreams come true and Rual leaves you will always have a big black mark for causing trouble and being unable to be a team player if it contiunues as your describe.
If you feel you are not protected for your rights at your job, move on. I would never let someone elses issues and problems let me live in that kind of fear. They dont have that type of power over me...if I am the professional that I (YOU) claim to be.
Ya know, I like many others think that a company WANTS to know the guy logged on to porn sites when he should be working, or the girl who took home the pen and pencil set I just ordered for the boss, or the guy who comes in an hour late and lies about it....
What I have seen however, is that people perceive YOU as the problem. The person who walks in the door with the problem BECOMES the problem.
This is something I have KNOWN but being a girl scout at heart, I am always thinking THIS time the higher ups will be greatful I told them.
Cases:
My husband was always on time, he came back early from lunch, he had great notes for meetings, and save the company money.
Fred, the guy in a twin position, came in at least 45 minutes everyday, then talked to everyone at each desk on his way to his. Fred, was a creep. My hubs had a person faxing over great info for the company and Fred HEARD him and ran to the fax and retrieved the info ran into the President and presented it as something HE had faxed in. AND they promoted Fred.
My hubs was just the man sho complained about Fred.
You are right, the complainer maybe a girl scout -- right as rain-- but will be seen as the annoying one. The complainer.
So, that is how I have been seen....
I am pragmatic and honest -- but I have made suggestions (my job had called for ) and found they really only wanted to hear how great THEY were and how I support their plan -- even if I saw it wasn't working. Their thoughts were, "make it work."
I think its great Dot, that you are an honest person and do your best. But sometimes picking out someone else's mistakes makes that person a whiner if done enough times. Bosses don't want whiners they want people that can work together and get the job done. By pointing out other's mistakes does not make working together a great atmosphere. I sure wouldn't want someone telling on me when I had done something that you thought wasn't good. Then you get people complaining about you and thinking 'oh she doesn't think her sh!t don't stink'.
I'm not saying your this way, Dot, I'm saying that this might be what people perceive. I say keeping your mouth shut and don't worry if someone is doing whatever by the water fountain. Its none of my beeswax. If someone gets credit for what I did, then there are ways to let others know without being a tattle tale.
Might I suggest looking at your problem from the outside from others eyes to see what might be going on?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh don't mean to be and don't take it personal. Maybe its a case of you needing to lighten up a bit?
I worked with a women who walked around the place with a sequin in a plastic bag saying it left by her long dead mother and wanted to know what I though her mom was trying to tell her..
Ok i walked away I said "I really couldnt say" I ran away from her and her baggie and she did it for a week straight man that woman had a person die every other day took every other day off for death. I know she didnt have that many nut case friends.
I would go on break and she would come in the break room and sit next to me with her baggie and ask me personal questions about my children and family (I avoid any of my perosnl info at work at just share ya know happy news for conversation) she would say "I think" and Maybe you should have your new grand .. becuase thousands of babies die every year type and it goes undected. type of freaky scary death to my new grand baby conversations.
WORK???
you have got to be kidding the woman didnt do one thing not one thing not one thing on the job and took alot of time off . and she was just plain stupid on top of nuts honestly.
but the owners trusted her .. long story and she got the boss her job.
I loved my boss I truly loved my boss she was the kindest person I have ever known in my life and she was fair and she worked so hard 6 days a week and picked up this nut cases slack all the time.
I loved my job so I started working harder and harder and just to get away from her and her dead mothers bead in the baggie routine I would do extra work that was not mine.
she reported me ..... I went to the office my boss said you do not need to do everything you know.
see she would pick ou these little jobs real simple things that would take maybe five minutes to complete and work on it for say 7 or 8 hours all day and I guess I did the one thing she had planned on doing that day and she had a FIT!!!!!
nothing left to do I guess .. believe this? and she was over me but of course knew and did much less than me.
and one day she slapped me when I was tryingt to walk away from her she grapped my hair and slapped me !! i told her you ever put your hands on me again you crazy wacko I will call the police and put your sorry foot in jail.
she called the owners and told them she thought I might be stealing they came and I told them yeah prove it and I will go to jail with her for hitting me!
she lied and made it up and they had no shortage and she was too dam stupid to fix one thank you God.
my boss knew i didnt steal and told the owners so.. and the wacko changed her story and said she didnt think so after all.
she was just upset because her "best friend" just died of a cancer she just found out she had that morning !!!
of course that makes anyone slap a co-worker and get away with which she did .. because I gave my notice and my boss fell to her knees and cried when I did .
how this wacko got in the position she did was political and how she ket it was by threatening her friend the boss with telling the owners she was tealing as well.
I quit because one day my friend the boss was off she never took a day off but had worked for so many days in a row and finaly did and this wacko called the owners and told them she was stealing... and she didnt do this and that and all this crap.
I couldnt believe it she was her good friend.. so instead of going to my friend the boss and telling her just how far this wacko would go and how sick she was I just quit. I dint have the heart nor the reason to get so involved in a JOB to take any of it to a level it would allow me to think less of myself or someone I really respected loved and cared about.
I learned a long time ago not to fight a system .. it is work just work no one is asking you to lie steal or cheat so just go to work do it for the Lord and enjoy your real life the reason your working.
God will help you . If you want to be the one who tell on peple then become the manager the supervisor the boss and do it your way.
It is difficult to find skilled workers and companies must keep employees for many different reasons dot it isnt as simple as he did wrong he should be fired .
Recommended Posts
CoolWaters
Really?
So here's a question I've been wondering about...and you don't have to respond at all...I'm just curious...
How do the sentiments expressed in this thread and a couple of others come across to an HR person?
I'm thinking a prayer to cover this thread against being used to the detriment of people would be in order...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
OK - I will break the rule here of there are two kinds of people...
There are three kinds of HR people
1 - employee advocates - always mean well but don't always make the right decision on how the company will succeed - which leaves everyone without a job
2 - Management advocates - always subscribe to management policy and will fire an employee at the drop of a hat and enjoy it - and damed if the company doesn't go down with it
3 - Real HR people who understand that they are best being part of an integral management team by promoting the skills of the employees
I've interviewed dozens of them or even more - and that is thow they bin
Link to comment
Share on other sites
prayingfordaylight
HR is what it is, and yes, it depends on how it is used where a person works. The term Whistle Blowing is one that I am familiar with, in that if you are mistreated, infringed upon, abused in some way shape or form, you have a right to blow the whistle on that person, with the proper documentation. There are also rules in most states for ZERO tolerance for those types of behaviors, esp. when there is some form of high archey where you work....i.e. Lawyers and their "assistants" i.e. Doctors and the nurses. It didnt used to be that way at all, and now there are very clear laws in place about whistle blowing and zero tolerance.
HR usually.......usually....has ONE specific person in place that deals with nothing but employee/employee issues. They are almost always there to solve the problems at that level and be done with it all, however you will always have one person who is probably endeavoring to do that, and than another person who wouldnt know how to do that, in spite of possibly loosing their job. The documentation that would occur would only be the first step in a process of bringing the two people together who have differences, and trying to work them out-with the management also in attendance to make sure nothing gets twisted out of place. I have found in my own experiences...(YES, being in management roles and in charge roles...) that this is the normal course of these meetings. I have also found at work, and with life in general that its almost always the person who isnt willing to get past something or change something that they did wrong that will loose in the end. It is generally the person who is willing to problem solve that comes out ahead. I am not sure that there is anything to fear or be scared about in talking about or dealing with HR issues. EVERY major corp or place of business usually has HR in place...and yes, HR IS a mixed bag, but If I worked somewhere...anywhere...where I couldnt take the proper steps in protecting my own rights as an employee, I think I would have to work elsewhere. YES...there is a chain of command so to speak....but it comes down to this....Did you try to solve the problem with the person, first? If that didnt work, did you go to your direct management and try to solve the issue? IF that STILL doesnt work, did you go to THEIR boss and try to overcome whatever obstical was there? IF NONE of that works, you document and go to HR. THEY HAVE to work on some sort of resolve with you, basically. Most people walk around in fear about going above someones head with issues. A MANAGER....probably spends 10 percent of their time dealing with scheduling and office crap, and probably the other 90 percent of their time dealing with employees that dont want to tow the line. SAD, isnt it??
Link to comment
Share on other sites
prayingfordaylight
good book about HR....
"HR from the heart"
(FORGET the author, but she used to be the top HR person at SW Airlines and also was the head HR person at Yahoo.com). REALLY good book about HR policy and being REAL.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
I agree with what praying for dylight said in her post.
I attend many seminars, taught directly by HR people of major companies and schools in the city and surrounding companies. It is a recruitment and a network that works to find the best employee and employers for this area.
Managers and professionals attend these seminars to learn the newest trends tech, and to network.
The NUMBER one reason employees get fired is because they complain.
As praying said a manager does indeed spend too much time babysitting issues between employees , but that issue does not decrease the work load they have as a manager , they do not feel it is their job and is a burden inflicted on them by problem employees.
When a solution is not forth coming it is easier all around to just get rid of the issue itself which is for he/or her the person complaining .
Over and over and over this is sited as the problem HR, managers and the company at large has to deal with.
In most companies the person hearing the complaints about the employees ( your boss) has to justify why they would fire someone. In NY it is a fire at will state which means they can and do fire anyone for any reason and no cause is neccesary to terminate. Frankly the fact somone is complaining is a good enough reason.. sure you can go through HR and do the steps praying is saying may be "in place" for whistle blowers and ect.. and how do we all know the famous whistle bowers?
they got fired for doing it . bottom line . and they are still complaining but unemployed.
If your mission to rid the company of this guy feels that noble to you dot go for it but be aware of the probable outcome.
So what is the solution? find another job.
It is your career and your choice where you work, but not your choice whom you work with , so you need to throw some resumes out there.
I live in a very large medical community and we have several very large universities in the area.
In this city they umbrella which is a data base of employees for ALL of the major companies and schools.
So if your throwing your resume around they know exaclty who you are before you even get an interview.. HUGE FACT HR people network they talk and they hold seminars to see what the work force looks like in an area and how to improve it and network talent.
Most managers and folks who are in charge of over seeing others and how they get along is in that position for a reason.
they are your boss your authority and was granted that because they earned it. You are to answer to them.. now can you seek a solution "over their head" yeah maybe the company does have a heirarchy inplace but most of those are used for serious problems such as a genuine sexual harrasment or injury on the job etc.. not someone not liking another... the manager will refer a person to the HR only if it is something they can not handle for a reason again. and you better have your fact and ducks in a very straight line .
If you insist and do it anyway well you are slapping his professionalism in the face and causing even more trouble than rual could ever . You would be walking on thin ice from then on in for sure and I certainly would be sending out that resume if you feel you need to go that far.
You just told your boss he does not know how to do his job, with the complaint you are not able to get along with another employee.
Well just look at that !with the fact every person is just trying to show up to go to work today , who would you get rid of?
this is the number one complaint in the work force and the answer is look for another job move on and be happy in your own life and leave raul alone, Raul makes his own work day, and you yours.
managers will place certain trouble -some employees in a work place for a reason they may excel at something your very very unaware of or offer a skill that is needed that you refuse to recognize because of your strong personal feelings.
They may be listening to his feedback about other employees and why they are unhappy..(that may be his skill ) and if you allow the tension to over ride your professional well Im sorry dot it would have to be you to leave.
It does not matter how long you have beeen there or how much you did for a company you are both in the same position, and you may be at risk if your making a much larger salary.. nice to find a replacement for all the rouble you cause wit the complaining and LESS money put out for it.
managers do spend alot of time wasted doing exactly what you describe.. but they do not like it and do not consider it a part of their job .. the goal is to eliminate it as much as possible and have team players that can work with one another. Even if that means getting rid of "good" employees who just cant understand how important it is to them .
dot if your that unhappy put some resumes out in the area and look for another job.
Even if your dreams come true and Rual leaves you will always have a big black mark for causing trouble and being unable to be a team player if it contiunues as your describe.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
prayingfordaylight
EXCELLENT POST, POND.
TOTALLY agree with all of that....
If you feel you are not protected for your rights at your job, move on. I would never let someone elses issues and problems let me live in that kind of fear. They dont have that type of power over me...if I am the professional that I (YOU) claim to be.
Good lession to learn...in all aspects of life.
Dawn
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Dot Matrix
Thanks.
Ya know, I like many others think that a company WANTS to know the guy logged on to porn sites when he should be working, or the girl who took home the pen and pencil set I just ordered for the boss, or the guy who comes in an hour late and lies about it....
What I have seen however, is that people perceive YOU as the problem. The person who walks in the door with the problem BECOMES the problem.
This is something I have KNOWN but being a girl scout at heart, I am always thinking THIS time the higher ups will be greatful I told them.
Cases:
My husband was always on time, he came back early from lunch, he had great notes for meetings, and save the company money.
Fred, the guy in a twin position, came in at least 45 minutes everyday, then talked to everyone at each desk on his way to his. Fred, was a creep. My hubs had a person faxing over great info for the company and Fred HEARD him and ran to the fax and retrieved the info ran into the President and presented it as something HE had faxed in. AND they promoted Fred.
My hubs was just the man sho complained about Fred.
You are right, the complainer maybe a girl scout -- right as rain-- but will be seen as the annoying one. The complainer.
So, that is how I have been seen....
I am pragmatic and honest -- but I have made suggestions (my job had called for ) and found they really only wanted to hear how great THEY were and how I support their plan -- even if I saw it wasn't working. Their thoughts were, "make it work."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Oakspear
Appropriate to the discussion...
http://www.despair.com/demotivation.html
Link to comment
Share on other sites
vickles
I think its great Dot, that you are an honest person and do your best. But sometimes picking out someone else's mistakes makes that person a whiner if done enough times. Bosses don't want whiners they want people that can work together and get the job done. By pointing out other's mistakes does not make working together a great atmosphere. I sure wouldn't want someone telling on me when I had done something that you thought wasn't good. Then you get people complaining about you and thinking 'oh she doesn't think her sh!t don't stink'.
I'm not saying your this way, Dot, I'm saying that this might be what people perceive. I say keeping your mouth shut and don't worry if someone is doing whatever by the water fountain. Its none of my beeswax. If someone gets credit for what I did, then there are ways to let others know without being a tattle tale.
Might I suggest looking at your problem from the outside from others eyes to see what might be going on?
I'm sorry if I sound harsh don't mean to be and don't take it personal. Maybe its a case of you needing to lighten up a bit?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
Dot
Ya want to hear a story?
I worked with a women who walked around the place with a sequin in a plastic bag saying it left by her long dead mother and wanted to know what I though her mom was trying to tell her..
Ok i walked away I said "I really couldnt say" I ran away from her and her baggie and she did it for a week straight man that woman had a person die every other day took every other day off for death. I know she didnt have that many nut case friends.
I would go on break and she would come in the break room and sit next to me with her baggie and ask me personal questions about my children and family (I avoid any of my perosnl info at work at just share ya know happy news for conversation) she would say "I think" and Maybe you should have your new grand .. becuase thousands of babies die every year type and it goes undected. type of freaky scary death to my new grand baby conversations.
WORK???
you have got to be kidding the woman didnt do one thing not one thing not one thing on the job and took alot of time off . and she was just plain stupid on top of nuts honestly.
but the owners trusted her .. long story and she got the boss her job.
I loved my boss I truly loved my boss she was the kindest person I have ever known in my life and she was fair and she worked so hard 6 days a week and picked up this nut cases slack all the time.
I loved my job so I started working harder and harder and just to get away from her and her dead mothers bead in the baggie routine I would do extra work that was not mine.
she reported me ..... I went to the office my boss said you do not need to do everything you know.
see she would pick ou these little jobs real simple things that would take maybe five minutes to complete and work on it for say 7 or 8 hours all day and I guess I did the one thing she had planned on doing that day and she had a FIT!!!!!
nothing left to do I guess .. believe this? and she was over me but of course knew and did much less than me.
and one day she slapped me when I was tryingt to walk away from her she grapped my hair and slapped me !! i told her you ever put your hands on me again you crazy wacko I will call the police and put your sorry foot in jail.
she called the owners and told them she thought I might be stealing they came and I told them yeah prove it and I will go to jail with her for hitting me!
she lied and made it up and they had no shortage and she was too dam stupid to fix one thank you God.
my boss knew i didnt steal and told the owners so.. and the wacko changed her story and said she didnt think so after all.
she was just upset because her "best friend" just died of a cancer she just found out she had that morning !!!
of course that makes anyone slap a co-worker and get away with which she did .. because I gave my notice and my boss fell to her knees and cried when I did .
how this wacko got in the position she did was political and how she ket it was by threatening her friend the boss with telling the owners she was tealing as well.
I quit because one day my friend the boss was off she never took a day off but had worked for so many days in a row and finaly did and this wacko called the owners and told them she was stealing... and she didnt do this and that and all this crap.
I couldnt believe it she was her good friend.. so instead of going to my friend the boss and telling her just how far this wacko would go and how sick she was I just quit. I dint have the heart nor the reason to get so involved in a JOB to take any of it to a level it would allow me to think less of myself or someone I really respected loved and cared about.
I learned a long time ago not to fight a system .. it is work just work no one is asking you to lie steal or cheat so just go to work do it for the Lord and enjoy your real life the reason your working.
God will help you . If you want to be the one who tell on peple then become the manager the supervisor the boss and do it your way.
It is difficult to find skilled workers and companies must keep employees for many different reasons dot it isnt as simple as he did wrong he should be fired .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.